If Daboll and/or Frazier leave, who do you want to replace them?

[Buddo]

I'm curious as to who is either available, or might be a good fit, for either our Offense or Defense, should Daboll or Frazier leave.

 

I can think of only two obvious candidates, for either side, as 'in house' promotions.

 

On Offense Dorsey, and on defense Washington.

 

Of those two, I see Washington as a far better possibility tbh, as he's been a DC before. I also think that as a DC, he ended up being something of collateral damage, when Tepper took over.

 

I'm ambivalent about Dorsey, but I don't know how influential he's been. Personally, I'd rather see someone who has some sort of track record as a coordinator, for the Offense.

 

Trouble is, I don't really know who is, or even might become, available.

 

Thoughts would be appreciated.

[billsfan1959]

I nominate @Big Turk or @Billsfan1972

 

Based on their threads, they seem to have their fingers on the pulse of this team....

[Not at the table Karlos]

Offense Dorsey. Defense Butler. 

 

[Billsfan1972]

3 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

I nominate @Big Turk or @Billsfan1972

 

Based on their threads, they seem to have their fingers on the pulse of this team....

I'll pass....  Coming here the day after the game and being critiqued for not running the ball enough and playing smash mouth football, or scoring 35+ points is taking away the old time aesthetic you crave, would be too much.....😜  

Edited January 2, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[Joe Mama]

🤣I'm pretty sure both Rob Ryan and Adam Gase are available!🤣

[ganesh]

I want to figure out how to get Bill Callahan from the Browns...He is the best OL coach in the league and he will make this OL superb

[gordong]

Pretty sure coach already has his guys picked out…. 

[Ayjent]

Honestly I don't see either one going anywhere.  Daboll and the Offensive staff have done a great job with Josh, but you do wonder sometimes what's up with the playcalling and issues on the OL.  I'm not sure Daboll will be successful as a HC, and I'm not sure he wants to leave this situation unless it is a really perfect opportunity.  I do wonder if this team might be better on Offense now that Josh is where he is with a different OC, but on the flip side it certainly could get worse.

 

Frazier has been good, but he didn't do so well in his stint as a HC and his defense is statistically impressive but not exactly a unit that imposes its will.  Teams are sometimes reluctant to try another time with successful coordinators that haven't been very successful as HCs.  McDermott also seems to have some point each season where he has to insert his input to change up the D - which he should, but I worry way less about DC than OC with McDermott as HC.

 

My point is that these two coordinators are good, but not great HC candidates.  They will definitely get their looks, but I wouldn't be surprised if neither gets a HC job.  I can't see the Raiders going with Frazier, and I know that has legs, but the Raiders are not exactly what I see as a fit with their strength on Offense.  I could see Leftwich way before Frazier. 

 

Also, looks like the Jags are going with Doug Pederson - which is a really bad hire, IMO - after Reich left his staff that team and staff was not the same and Pederson showed himself to be a real clown when things were unraveling in Philly.  Reich is a really good coach and its hard not to like him even if you hate the Colts. 

[aristocrat]

Kyle shanahan and Jim Schwartz 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Dennison might well get the boot from the Vikings.  Second time's the charm?

😳

[Ayjent]

Actually Matt Nagy wouldn't be a bad choice if Daboll leaves and has ties to the same coaching tree as McDermott.

[Patrick Duffy]

 It depends who will be available at that time. But imo I think you'd really have to be a terrible OC if you can't be successful with the talent on this offense. 

[Doc]

Vic Fangio for DC. No idea who for OC. 

[78thealltimegreat]

22 hours ago, Buddo said:

I'm curious as to who is either available, or might be a good fit, for either our Offense or Defense, should Daboll or Frazier leave.

 

I can think of only two obvious candidates, for either side, as 'in house' promotions.

 

On Offense Dorsey, and on defense Washington.

 

Of those two, I see Washington as a far better possibility tbh, as he's been a DC before. I also think that as a DC, he ended up being something of collateral damage, when Tepper took over.

 

I'm ambivalent about Dorsey, but I don't know how influential he's been. Personally, I'd rather see someone who has some sort of track record as a coordinator, for the Offense.

 

Trouble is, I don't really know who is, or even might become, available.

 

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Mike Zimmer if the Vikings part ways with him would be an amazing hire with the defensive personnel 

Offensively someone from Kyle Shannahans coaching tree to implement a zone running scheme as I think Josh would be amazing in a scheme which utilized his play action skills off of this 

[Do The Reich Thing]

Joe Brady. 

[BillsFan4]

I wonder if McDermott just promotes from within. Seems like the most likely option to me, but maybe not.

 

If so, my guess is Ken Dorsey as OC and either Eric Washington or John Butler as DC. (there were rumors that McDermott wanted Washington as his DC when he was first hired but Carolina promoted, and I remember another rumor about Butler but can’t remember the exact details). 

[GunnerBill]

49 minutes ago, Doc said:

Vic Fangio for DC. No idea who for OC. 

 

Vic Fangio is a great defensive mind but it is a very different scheme to McDermott's that isn't happening. 

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Vic Fangio is a great defensive mind but it is a very different scheme to McDermott's that isn't happening. 

 

Did McDermott groom any defensive assistants whilst in Carolina?  We know he and Beane like familiarity.

[Wizard]

Shanahan for OC. I would like to see bubble screens and other short passes to our running backs.

 

DC would be someone that gets the most out of a pash rush and stopping the run.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Wizard

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Did McDermott groom any defensive assistants whilst in Carolina?  We know he and Beane like familiarity.

 

The D Line coach was Eric Washington who had a pretty ropey year as the Carolina DC in Rivera's final year there leading to Ron eventually stepping in to call plays. 

 

Al Holcomb was the linebackers coach he is now back with Carolina as the defensive run game coordinator after a spell as defensive coordinator in Arizona where the head coach was McDermott's secondary coach in Carolina - Steve Wilks - who was one and done as Head Coach in Arizona and then one and done as DC in Cleveland. 

 

Holcomb is the one of those three that I would be most interested in personally but Washington would be the overwhelming front runner. 

12 minutes ago, Wizard said:

Shanahan for OC. I would like to see bubble screens and other short passes to our funnjng backs.

 

DC would be someone that gets the most out of a pash rush and stopping the run.

 

Shanahan is the best offensive play designer in the NFL but he is employed as a Head Coach. He isn't taking a demotion.

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The D Line coach was Eric Washington who had a pretty ropey year as the Carolina DC in Rivera's final year there leading to Ron eventually stepping in to call plays. 

 

Al Holcomb was the linebackers coach he is now back with Carolina as the defensive run game coordinator after a spell as defensive coordinator in Arizona where the head coach was McDermott's secondary coach in Carolina - Steve Wilks - who was one and done as Head Coach in Arizona and then one and done as DC in Cleveland. 

 

Holcomb is the one of those three that I would be most interested in personally but Washington would be the overwhelming front runner. 

 

Shanahan is the best offensive play designer in the NFL but he is employed as a Head Coach. He isn't taking a demotion.

I think he means the old man.

[MAJBobby]

23 hours ago, Buddo said:

I'm curious as to who is either available, or might be a good fit, for either our Offense or Defense, should Daboll or Frazier leave.

 

I can think of only two obvious candidates, for either side, as 'in house' promotions.

 

On Offense Dorsey, and on defense Washington.

 

Of those two, I see Washington as a far better possibility tbh, as he's been a DC before. I also think that as a DC, he ended up being something of collateral damage, when Tepper took over.

 

I'm ambivalent about Dorsey, but I don't know how influential he's been. Personally, I'd rather see someone who has some sort of track record as a coordinator, for the Offense.

 

Trouble is, I don't really know who is, or even might become, available.

 

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Daboll Leaves - Dorsey gets that job, though I would not be surprised with Brady on this staff. 

Frazier leaves - I think this is Washington will be in-line for that (its McDs defense anyay).  Plus the 2nd and 3rd Compensation.

Edited January 3, 2022 by MAJBobby

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think he means the old man.

 

Mike Shanahan? He is almost 70!

[billsbackto81]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

Vic Fangio for DC. No idea who for OC. 

I would think OC would be offered to Dorsey. He's been involved in this system a few years now and has familiarity with staff. DC? I would think McD would liken someone who shares the same philosophy and zone concepts he does, and I hate the idea. I want someone who brings a more aggressive and attacking style of Defense.

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Mike Shanahan? He is almost 70!

This is a franchise that hired Marv Levy 2X😂😂

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by billsbackto81

[Bangarang]

Mike Zimmer would be an interesting option if he’s fired in Minny.

 

Still not sure about Dorsey and what kind of  play caller he’d be.

 

[GunnerBill]

I think it will be internal promotions. Washington as DC and Dorsey as OC. Though John Butler and Chad Hall are darkhorse in-house options too. 

 

On defense we know that whatever happens it will be the McDermott 4-3, cover 3 defense at heart. 

 

On offense it is more interesting. Obviously Daboll is an Erdhart-Perkins guy. But McDermott's first choice originally as OC was Mike McCoy (who has run a number of different offenses), he hired Rick Dennison (who is a disciple of the Shanahan style West Coast Offense off of the stretch zone) and then replaced him Daboll. If Daboll moves on would the Bills continue to run an offense based on E-P concepts or would they revert to something else? 

 

If they do retain the E-P and hire someone from outside I have long been an advocate of Sean Ryan. He is an E-P guy having been brought up in the NFL under Tom Coughlin in New York and Bill O'Brien in Houston before then working for Matt Patricia as Quarterback coach in Detroit. He has been QB coach in Carolina this year, which might not be a ringing endorsement for his candidacy but he has interviewed elsewhere for OC jobs in the past and I think he'd be an interesting option.

9 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

I would think OC would be offered to Dorsey. He's been involved in this system a few years now and has familiarity with staff. DC? I would think McD would liken someone who shares the same philosophy and zone concepts he does, and I hate the idea. I want someone who brings a more aggressive and attacking style of Defense.

 

 

Fans always want aggressive, but personally, get me another guy who keeps the game in front of them. That is how to play defense in the modern NFL. 

[Bangarang]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I think it will be internal promotions. Washington as DC and Dorsey as OC. Though John Butler and Chad Hall are darkhorse in-house options too. 

 

On defense we know that whatever happens it will be the McDermott 4-3, cover 3 defense at heart. 

 

On offense it is more interesting. Obviously Daboll is an Erdhart-Perkins guy. But McDermott's first choice originally as OC was Mike McCoy (who has run a number of different offenses), he hired Rick Dennison (who is a disciple of the Shanahan style West Coast Offense off of the stretch zone) and then replaced him Daboll. If Daboll moves on would the Bills continue to run an offense based on E-P concepts or would they revert to something else? 

 

If they do retain the E-P and hire someone from outside I have long been an advocate of Sean Ryan. He is an E-P guy having been brought up in the NFL under Tom Coughlin in New York and Bill O'Brien in Houston before then working for Matt Patricia as Quarterback coach in Detroit. He has been QB coach in Carolina this year, which might not be a ringing endorsement for his candidacy but he has interviewed elsewhere for OC jobs in the past and I think he'd be an interesting option.

Im such a sucker for the Shanahan style WCO. The idea of Josh working the play action bootleg game makes my private parts tingle. 
 

You’re probably correct about us staying in house with replacements. Although I’d have to imagine that McD will have plenty of options for outside hires. I’m sure lots of guys with ambitions of being a HC will want to help their cause by having a great offense led by an elite QB. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Bangarang

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Im such a sucker for the Shanahan style WCO. The idea of Josh working the play action bootleg game makes my private parts tingle. 
 

You’re probably correct about us staying in house with replacements. Although I’d have to imagine that McD will have plenty of options for outside hires. I’m sure lots of guys with ambitions of being a HC will want to help their cause by having a great offense led by an elite QB. 

 

The problem for me with the Shanahan WCO is I think it put super talented Quarterbacks in a bit of a straight jacket. It really, really places a high value on staying disciplined in reads and in footwork and in timing. Great if what you are trying to do is make Kirk Cousins look like the very best version of himself, less great if you have a playmaker back there who does a lot of his best work off script. Hell I think it put Tyrod (who was more playmaker than Quarterback, though not even in the Josh Allen conversation talent wise) in too much of a straight jacket when Dennison ran it here. 

 

Personally I prefer the E-P for Allen but it would not surprise me at all if McDermott went back to more of a Shanny style WCO if he hires from the outside. 

[billsbackto81]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Fans always want aggressive, but personally, get me another guy who keeps the game in front of them. That is how to play defense in the modern NFL. 

I have no objection to keeping a lot of the zone coverage schemes this team employs. My wish is they address the the woeful D front that just can't control the LOS and get overpowered all the time.

 

And yes I know we've drafted Oliver, Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa along with a slew of FA failures.  It's just not working.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, billsbackto81 said:

 

I have no objection to keeping a lot of the zone coverage schemes this team employs. My wish is they address the the woeful D front that just can't control the LOS and get overpowered all the time.

 

And yes I know we've drafted Oliver, Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa along with a slew of FA failures.  It's just not working.

 

I mean they are:

 

1st in the league in yards

2nd in the league in points

1st in the league in QB hurry %

2nd in the league in QB pressure %

 

Sounds to me like it is working pretty well. 

[billsbackto81]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean they are:

 

1st in the league in yards

2nd in the league in points

1st in the league in QB hurry %

2nd in the league in QB pressure %

 

Sounds to me like it is working pretty well. 

It may sound that way to you Gunner, but what do your eyes tell you? 

Honestly, when you watch the games do they strike you as a Top defense? Especially when playing a playoff caliber opponent.

 

I saw them not sack Tannehill once, and he was the most sacked QB at the time. I saw them make Carson Wentz look amazing. QB Pressure IMO is one of the most over rated stats. Personally I'd rather see Sacks. Sacks cause turnovers, lose yardage, creates longer down and distance, cause the QB discomfort and hesitation.

And overall just pumps up the defense. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by billsbackto81

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, Doc said:

Vic Fangio for DC. No idea who for OC. 

 

Fangio's D sounds a lot like McD's: https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/09/02/why-the-vic-fangio-scheme-is-sweeping-the-nfl/

[TheyCallMeAndy]

The biggest issue I have with DaBoll is his gameplan/play calling. With Frazier it’s lack of adjustments to make up for weaknesses. Bills have no chance against physical Offenses with power RBs. 
 

DaBoll has gotta go, Frazier I’d like to keep but I think we have staff on the D that could replace him. 
 

Dorsey is an elite level QB coach, losing him would be awful. 

[GunnerBill]

51 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

It may sound that way to you Gunner, but what do your eyes tell you? 

 

My eyes tell me they are a darn good defense in an era when it is impossible to be a dominant one. They have a vulnerability to a power run game. I agree with that, but in this day in age if I am going to have a weakness run defense isn't the worst one to have. Indy and Tennessee are tough match ups as a result, I grant you that (although I dispute Carson Wentz looked amazing, he looked dreadful to me). Teams who can suck the Bills up with the power run and offer an effective play action thread are the danger. But you can't be perfect in the modern NFL. Where are you taking the resources from the shore up the interior of the defense against the run? Likewise if you want to get exotic and send lots of blitzes then you are going to have to spend to upgrade your corner depth (both your #2 starter and your depth options). 

 

The Bills defense is one of the very best in the league. 

47 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Fangio's D sounds a lot like McD's: https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/09/02/why-the-vic-fangio-scheme-is-sweeping-the-nfl/

 

It has lots of zone coverage in common. They way their fronts work is quite different. 

[Rocky Landing]

DC- Jim Schwartz.

[sunshynman]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:37 PM, Joe Mama said:

🤣I'm pretty sure both Rob Ryan and Adam Gase are available!🤣

 

3 hours ago, Do The Reich Thing said:

Joe Brady. 

 

You can both go to H E double hockey sticks!

[BuffaloBill]

3 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

I wonder if McDermott just promotes from within. Seems like the most likely option to me, but maybe not.

 

If so, my guess is Ken Dorsey as OC and either Eric Washington or John Butler as DC. (there were rumors that McDermott wanted Washington as his DC when he was first hired but Carolina promoted, and I remember another rumor about Butler but can’t remember the exact details). 

 

 

Promotion from within seems to be the most logical situation.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Vic Fangio is a great defensive mind but it is a very different scheme to McDermott's that isn't happening. 

If Fangio thinks he has the personnel to make his system successful, it would be a mistake to exclude him as a candidate. I harken back to when Rex was hired and he let Schwarz go, which was a mistake.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Doc

[Nextmanup]

I realize this defeats the point of the thread, but I would cross this bridge only if and when we come to it.

 

I'm just not that fearful we are going to lose anyone this year.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, Doc said:

If Fangio thinks he has the personnel to make his system successful, it would be a mistake to exclude him as a candidate. I harken back to when Rex was hired and he let Schwarz go, which was a mistake.

 

I think the opposite. I think to hire Fangio and change scheme would be to rip up a successful model which is exactly what they did when they replaced Schwartz's defense with Rex's.