Subjectively speaking, I think this Bills 2021 DL will be better than the Bills 2013 DL

[Victory Formation]

Which is remarkable because the 2013 Bills DL boasted of Mario Williams, Kyle Williams, Marcell Dareus and Jerry Hughes. I think there will be two elite players who come forth, mainly Carlos Basham and Ed Oliver. I expect a very high level of production right away from Boogie and I think that this year Ed Oliver turns into the player we all wanted him to be. So between those two guys, I think Buffalo will have two very good players on that DL that will pretty much cause havoc and set the tempo for the rest of the Bills D. I also think that Epenesa will have breakout year. I think he will be a good DE for years to come, I don’t see him as an elite DE or someone who will be in that elite upper echelon of DEs, but I think he will be good. Then we have guys like Hughes, Addison, Rousseau and Obada in the mix, who will provide great depth and will keep our starters fresh. Collectively I see these guys contributing to this team as a whole, individually speaking I don’t think you’ll see any gaudy numbers from them, but once again, collectively as a group, they will benefit this team greatly as a unit. Also, I think fans put too much value on Star. I think if it were possible, he would be gone already. I think he will have little to no impact on the outcome of this years DL. He’s just an overpriced tub of doo doo butter at this point. So I think what was our Achilles heel last year will now become the heart and soul of this team’s defense.

[Chandler#81]

🤦‍♂️ None will ‘break out’. Rookies don’t break out, they either play well or they don’t. No Bills DL player gets even 50% of the snaps as it’s very design is Down & Distance influenced -including where every player aligns. As for Star, go plead your case to McDermott -cuz unlike you, he doesn’t know anything..

He’s a starter. Get over yourself.

[maddenboy]

 

24 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Which is remarkable because the 2013 Bills DL boasted of Mario Williams, Kyle Williams, Marcell Dareus and Jerry Hughes. I think there will be two elite players who come forth, mainly Carlos Basham and Ed Oliver. I expect a very high level of production right away from Boogie and I think that this year Ed Oliver turns into the player we all wanted him to be. So between those two guys, I think Buffalo will have two very good players on that DL that will pretty much cause havoc and set the tempo for the rest of the Bills D. I also think that Epenesa will have breakout year. I think he will be a good DE for years to come, I don’t see him as an elite DE or someone who will be in that elite upper echelon of DEs, but I think he will be good. Then we have guys like Hughes, Addison, Rousseau and Obada in the mix, who will provide great depth and will keep our starters fresh. Collectively I see these guys contributing to this team as a whole, individually speaking I don’t think you’ll see any gaudy numbers from them, but once again, collectively as a group, they will benefit this team greatly as a unit. Also, I think fans put too much value on Star. I think if it were possible, he would be gone already. I think he will have little to no impact on the outcome of this years DL. He’s just an overpriced tub of doo doo butter at this point. So I think what was our Achilles heel last year will now become the heart and soul of this team’s defense.

Star is actually not, currently, a "tub of doo doo butter."   That has been discussed here a lot. 

 

Can you explain why you think Boogie will be good, but "Groot" will be only "in the mix."  Both are at the same starting point, unless you think there's reason to believe that one is better.  If so, that would be a good topic for discussion.

 

And please mix in a paragraph break.  If you want people to actually read all that.  please.

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by maddenboy

[Victory Formation]

24 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

🤦‍♂️ None will ‘break out’. Rookies don’t break out, they either play well or they don’t. No Bills DL player gets even 50% of the snaps as it’s very design is Down & Distance influenced -including where every player aligns. As for Star, go plead your case to McDermott -cuz unlike you, he doesn’t know anything..

He’s a starter. Get over yourself.

So are you telling me that you won’t pin this thread?

[IgotBILLStopay]

Dareus 2013 >> Star 2021. Dareus was the single greatest DT talent at the time and was playing for his next contract.

Hughes 2013 >> Hughes 2021 Age is a biatch

Kyle 2013 ~ Oliver 2021 OK this may be a wash since I do love Oliver - but Kyle was Kyle ya know

Mario Williams 2013 >> Rousseau / Epenesa / Basham 2021 . Super Mario was the #1 overall pick for a reason man!!

 

I think if they come close it will be a good achievement, but no way, at this time can we make the statement that 2021 DL >> 2013 DL

 

But, just to humor OP - the 2021 DL does have calling cards that 2013 did not have -

 

1. Depth: 2013 the drop off from the top 4 was huge.

2. Much as I liked Pettine, I think McD- Frazier have a better Defensive system

 

So, it all depends on how quickly the rookies / Epenesa / Oliver takeoff. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by IgotBILLStopay

[IgotBILLStopay]

18 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

So are you telling me that you won’t pin this thread?

More likely to be pincushioned!!

Edited June 27, 2021 by IgotBILLStopay

[transient]

6 minutes ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

Dareus 2013 >> Star 2021. Dareus was the single greatest DT talent at the time and was playing for his next contract.

Hughes 2013 >> Hughes 2021 Age is a biatch

Kyle 2013 ~ Oliver 2021 OK this may be a wash since I do love Oliver - but Kyle was Kyle ya know

Mario Williams 2013 >> Rousseau / Epenesa / Basham 2021 . Super Mario was the #1 overall pick for a reason man!!

 

I think if they come close it will be a good achievement, but no way, at this time can we make the statement that 2021 DL >> 2013 DL

 

But, just to humor OP - the 2021 DL does have calling cards that 2013 did not have -

 

1. Depth: 2013 the drop off from the top 4 was huge.

2. Much as I liked Pettine, I think McD- Frazier have a better Defensive system

 

So, it all depends on how quickly the rookies / Epenesa / Oliver takeoff. 

At least he got the “subjectively speaking” part right. 🤷‍♂️

[scuba guy]

Is it still the off season

 

Let's make another thread about a dine member

 

That see how many we have know

 

2 on star 1 for will he show up

 one for Replacement with hh

 

1 for boogie which is really well written 

One for grut and how he will not be any good this year. But maybe next like aj

 

And one for aj

 

And of course my favorite let's trade Jerry for a bag of pretzels.

 

Which one did I forget o yeah one about sacks

 

And 1 about big Ed

 

Did I forget one

 

It's summer in ny 

We only have 2 seasons July and winter

[TroutDog]

I think one of the teams in the NFL will win the Super Bowl this year. I think Josh is a great QB. I think Diggs is a great wideout. Lastly, I think I’m done with this thread. 😃 

Edited June 27, 2021 by TroutDog

[Weatherman]

29 minutes ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

Dareus 2013 >> Star 2021. Dareus was the single greatest DT talent at the time and was playing for his next contract.

Hughes 2013 >> Hughes 2021 Age is a biatch

Kyle 2013 ~ Oliver 2021 OK this may be a wash since I do love Oliver - but Kyle was Kyle ya know

Mario Williams 2013 >> Rousseau / Epenesa / Basham 2021 . Super Mario was the #1 overall pick for a reason man!!

 

I think if they come close it will be a good achievement, but no way, at this time can we make the statement that 2021 DL >> 2013 DL

 

But, just to humor OP - the 2021 DL does have calling cards that 2013 did not have -

 

1. Depth: 2013 the drop off from the top 4 was huge.

2. Much as I liked Pettine, I think McD- Frazier have a better Defensive system

 

So, it all depends on how quickly the rookies / Epenesa / Oliver takeoff. 

All true, but we can’t forget that the 21 LB’s CB’s and SS/FS are superior to 2013 which directly impacts the Dl’s overall effectiveness.  

[NewEra]

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Just change the first two words in your title from "Subjectively Speaking" to "Wishful Thinking" and no one can argue with anything you say.

 

Everything you say could happen, but based on everything seen to date it's 100% based on hope.

 

I do agree Basham will have some impact as a rookie and he may become elite in 3 to 4 years, but expecting that to happen as a rookie is just laughable.  Bruce Smith was far far from elite as a rookie.

 

Oliver too could have a very good season, maybe even elite, but still somewhat of a stretch at this point based on everything seen.

 

I do agree with one thing you stated that Star would be gone already if it were possible.  But then you state: "our Achilles heel last year will now become the heart and soul of this team’s defense"  The problem is none of the guys you mention play his position and fill his role on the defense. 

 

The one player you don't mention at all is Phillips which is kind of ironic as he's the one guy who could take Star's spot and likely was drafted with that intention, but with his injury 2 years ago, so far we haven't seen that.  If that were to happen and Oliver does become the star player he was drafted to be, AND Addison plays at a better level than last season, then maybe the D line overall could become very good to great and a strength of the team this year as the one thing I do think this years team has over 2013 and maybe most teams in the league now is depth.  Our backups can beat their backups!

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Victory Formation said:

So are you telling me that you won’t pin this thread?

Well, after all it does boil down to a bit of ill informed fluff pretty quickly, it started out okay I guess, but by the end of it your obvious bias against Star turns this thread starting post into a gossip piece, jmo. 

 

Go Bills!!!

[Beast]

Rough crowd.

[ngbills]

Sometimes I try to think and nothing happens

[billieve420]

Can Frazier be creative with how he deploys these guys will be the key. Looks like we have some depth but I need to see how they are going to be used in game situations.

[Mc1320]

Don’t believe the hype.  Remember when the coaches and media had nothing but positive things to say about Aaron Maybin after he was drafted but before he stepped on the field for Week 1?

 

Our pass rush was mediocre at best last year.  The run defense was weak for most of the season but benefitted from our offense putting a ton of points on the board.

 

These rookies are now going to go against grown ass men compared to the kids they were just playing.  None of these rooks have seen the likes of a Mekhi Becton in college.  Let’s hope they can contribute something early and develop into impact players as the season goes along.

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, Mc1320 said:

Don’t believe the hype.  Remember when the coaches and media had nothing but positive things to say about Aaron Maybin after he was drafted but before he stepped on the field for Week 1?

 

Our pass rush was mediocre at best last year.  The run defense was weak for most of the season but benefitted from our offense putting a ton of points on the board.

 

These rookies are now going to go against grown ass men compared to the kids they were just playing.  None of these rooks have seen the likes of a Mekhi Becton in college.  Let’s hope they can contribute something early and develop into impact players as the season goes along.

 

Yes, because everyone should be compared to Maybin. 👍

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Which is remarkable because the 2013 Bills DL boasted of Mario Williams, Kyle Williams, Marcell Dareus and Jerry Hughes. I think there will be two elite players who come forth, mainly Carlos Basham and Ed Oliver. I expect a very high level of production right away from Boogie and I think that this year Ed Oliver turns into the player we all wanted him to be. So between those two guys, I think Buffalo will have two very good players on that DL that will pretty much cause havoc and set the tempo for the rest of the Bills D. I also think that Epenesa will have breakout year. I think he will be a good DE for years to come, I don’t see him as an elite DE or someone who will be in that elite upper echelon of DEs, but I think he will be good. Then we have guys like Hughes, Addison, Rousseau and Obada in the mix, who will provide great depth and will keep our starters fresh. Collectively I see these guys contributing to this team as a whole, individually speaking I don’t think you’ll see any gaudy numbers from them, but once again, collectively as a group, they will benefit this team greatly as a unit. Also, I think fans put too much value on Star. I think if it were possible, he would be gone already. I think he will have little to no impact on the outcome of this years DL. He’s just an overpriced tub of doo doo butter at this point. So I think what was our Achilles heel last year will now become the heart and soul of this team’s defense.

 

So, A guy we are still waiting to "breakout" (Oliver), a rookie (Basham), a guy who didn't do much of anything last year (Epenesa), another rookie (Rousseau), an aging journeyman vet (Addison), yet another Carolina throwaway (Obada), a guy who hasn't payed in a year and a half--and who you figure is washed up anyway (Star)....and Hughes.....will be a better D-line than Williams/Williams/Dareus/Hughes (3 of them Pro Bowlers in 2013)?

 

[Punching Bag]

3 hours ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

More likely to be pincushioned!!

 

@Victory Formation will be our donkey as in "pin the tail on the donkey?

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

3 hours ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

Dareus 2013 >> Star 2021. Dareus was the single greatest DT talent at the time and was playing for his next contract.

Hughes 2013 >> Hughes 2021 Age is a biatch

Kyle 2013 ~ Oliver 2021 OK this may be a wash since I do love Oliver - but Kyle was Kyle ya know

Mario Williams 2013 >> Rousseau / Epenesa / Basham 2021 . Super Mario was the #1 overall pick for a reason man!!

 

I think if they come close it will be a good achievement, but no way, at this time can we make the statement that 2021 DL >> 2013 DL

 

But, just to humor OP - the 2021 DL does have calling cards that 2013 did not have -

 

1. Depth: 2013 the drop off from the top 4 was huge.

2. Much as I liked Pettine, I think McD- Frazier have a better Defensive system

 

So, it all depends on how quickly the rookies / Epenesa / Oliver takeoff. 

End the thread. This is a perfect analysis.

[IgotBILLStopay]

3 hours ago, Weatherman said:

All true, but we can’t forget that the 21 LB’s CB’s and SS/FS are superior to 2013 which directly impacts the Dl’s overall effectiveness.  

I was about to agree, but upon reflection I am not so sure.

 

Gilmore, Kiko, McKelvin, pre-injury Aaron WIlliams, Jairus Byrd, Nigel Bradham, Manny Lawson, even Leodis ... did I miss someone? I submit that the 2013 defense was pretty loaded dehind the Dline too.

[Weatherman]

7 minutes ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

I was about to agree, but upon reflection I am not so sure.

 

Gilmore, Kiko, McKelvin, pre-injury Aaron WIlliams, Jairus Byrd, Nigel Bradham, Manny Lawson, even Leodis ... did I miss someone? I submit that the 2013 defense was pretty loaded dehind the Dline too.

McKelvin was an okay #2 CB I guess, I think that was Gilmore’s rookie season so he wasn't then what he is now.  Both our current starting LBers are better than any of those 3 (Lawson was great in coverage).  Aaron Williams was pretty solid pre injury.  I think we agree the 2013 DL was way better but I’m still of the opinion the remainder of the 2021 D is better at nearly all positions except for maybe #2 CB.  

Edited June 27, 2021 by Weatherman

[Billl]

The 2013 squad had 57 sacks compared to 38 last season.  2021 would have to up the total by 50% just to match.  That would be remarkable accomplishment given that no proven superstar players were added.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

Appreciate your optimism, but cue up Aerosmith’s “Dream On”

[Kwai San]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

So, A guy we are still waiting to "breakout" (Oliver), a rookie (Basham), a guy who didn't do much of anything last year (Epenesa), another rookie (Rousseau), an aging journeyman vet (Addison), yet another Carolina throwaway (Obada), a guy who hasn't payed in a year and a half--and who you figure is washed up anyway (Star)....and Hughes.....will be a better D-line than Williams/Williams/Dareus/Hughes (3 of them Pro Bowlers in 2013)?

 

 

Sorta boggles the mind no???

[billybrew1]

Not the topic but.... Honestly, I'd take Pettiness over Frazier. Pettiness attacks, Frazier is defensively defensive. Good when you're playing Baltimore, not do much vs. everybody else. Half the time, you don't know what Frazier is asking his defense to do, so it is hard to criticize the players. I know I've seen Tremaine "waiting" for the runner to hit the LOS before engaging. This is heat he is told to do and as fans it is hard to see and fathom. Frazier keeps the ball in front of his defense where Pettine goes and gets the ball. Frazier becomes far more aggressive in some playoff games but some not do much.

Everybody is waiting for Ed to take off but the fact remains, Kyle did not shoot the gap In Frazier's defense and unless it's a playoff game, I doubt Ed does either. I think Frazier values negative plays less than most. I think he thinks he can stop scoring plays and that is really all that counts (but his success is very debatable). Does he have only average players or does his defense make all defenders average? I'm not sure of this but I know Frazier is not an aggressive DC by any means.

 

[billybrew1]

3 hours ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

I was about to agree, but upon reflection I am not so sure.

 

Gilmore, Kiko, McKelvin, pre-injury Aaron WIlliams, Jairus Byrd, Nigel Bradham, Manny Lawson, even Leodis ... did I miss someone? I submit that the 2013 defense was pretty loaded dehind the Dline too.

I think if we had Pettine and that defense (even though I was never a Super Fan because he always played below his talent level overall - low effort) we would win a Super Bowl. Furthermore, I think the defense would look far better with our offense taking big leads. The sack number would be ridiculous.

I like this current Bills team as much as I liked any Bills team, but I'm not going to say it is something t isn't. We have a good defense....end of story. We drafted well in 2017 and drafted Josh Allen. Not so good aside from that.... average at best.

[berg1029]

4 hours ago, billybrew1 said:

Not the topic but.... Honestly, I'd take Pettiness over Frazier. Pettiness attacks, Frazier is defensively defensive. Good when you're playing Baltimore, not do much vs. everybody else. Half the time, you don't know what Frazier is asking his defense to do, so it is hard to criticize the players. I know I've seen Tremaine "waiting" for the runner to hit the LOS before engaging. This is heat he is told to do and as fans it is hard to see and fathom. Frazier keeps the ball in front of his defense where Pettine goes and gets the ball. Frazier becomes far more aggressive in some playoff games but some not do much.

Everybody is waiting for Ed to take off but the fact remains, Kyle did not shoot the gap In Frazier's defense and unless it's a playoff game, I doubt Ed does either. I think Frazier values negative plays less than most. I think he thinks he can stop scoring plays and that is really all that counts (but his success is very debatable). Does he have only average players or does his defense make all defenders average? I'm not sure of this but I know Frazier is not an aggressive DC by any means.

 

Agree.  With the offense being as good as it is, Pettine's style of attacking D is (arguably) a better fit.  Frazier/McD like to slow the game down with the bend but don't break strategy, but causing turnovers or 3-and-outs is even more of a benefit when your offense is as good as ours is.  I suspect Frazier and McD know this though, and thus they have drafted a bunch of d-linemen to try to more aggressively pressure/cause turnovers. 

[BigAl2526]

I think the defensive line has the potential to be much improved.  However rookies can always disappoint.  What I most expect is that Sean McDermott/Leslie Frazier plan to use a heavy rotation on the defensive line.  Moreover, if the play of the rookies allows it, I expect a great deal of moving around in the line.  Jerry Hughes is going to be on one end or another when he's on the field, and Star Lotulelei will be at 1 tech when he's on the field.  Everybody else is subject being moved around.   Harrison Phillips can play either DT spot.  Rousseau and Basham can move in side, if we can believe the early buzz out of OTAs and mini-camp.  Oliver can, and probably will play anywhere, though I expect his play at 1 tech will be greatly reduced this season.  Epenesa can, like the rookies, move inside.  I think Justin Zimmer can probably move around too.  Some of the holdovers, like Mario Addison, are less flexible, and that may mean it'll be harder for them to make the team

[Rico]

All that 2013 D did was lose.

I’ll take this year’s D.

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Subjectively speaking, I think this Bills 2021 DL will be better than the Bills 2013 DL

 

 

Subjectively speaking, I think that's more than a little nutty. Our DL had three Pro Bowlers that year.

 

Kyle Williams with 10.5 sacks, Dareus when he was still tearing up the league before he recieved his first contract, and Mario Williams in a year when he managed 13 sacks? With Jerry Hughes subbing in and putting up ten sacks of his own? Mario was a 2nd team All-Pro that year, and I didn't remember this till I looked it up just now, but Kyle was a first-teamer in the Sporting News All-Pro team.

 

Puh-leeze.

 

Quite a bit better than last year? Yeah, that would seem quite possible, particularly with the return of Lotulelei. but better than the excellent 2013 group? Doubtful.

 

I'm really positive about Basham, but you're systematically over-estimating him. Rookie tweeners are wildly unlikely to have the kind of season you're predicting. Down the road, who knows, it could happen, but in his first year, the chances are really low.

 

Nothing's impossible, but there's plenty that's very very improbable, and this DL prediction is one of those.

 

13 hours ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

Appreciate your optimism, but cue up Aerosmith’s “Dream On”

 

 

Ah, you said it much better and more politely than I could.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Doc Brown]

There was only one team that had more sacks in 2013 than the 57 our crew in 2013.  Care to guess who the defensive coordinator of that team was?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

There was only one team that had more sacks in 2013 than the 57 our crew in 2013.  Care to guess who the defensive coordinator of that team was?

Nice try, but not again.  It was not Hugh G. Rection.  I had to throw out my computer after that google search. 
 

 

[T master]

I believe that with he injection of young talent this past draft along with Oliver plus the fact that Star is coming back and i believe he was missed in some ways that the D can be as good as they were 2 seasons ago which is a good thing and could quite possibly be enough to get them to the next step .

 

Defense wins championships which we saw last year ! 

[machine gun kelly]

Victory, I’m not going t bust you’re chops as you love the Bills and have some good tales, but my friend this one was a little over the top.  That just tells me you’re as excited as I am about this year.

 

The differences between Frazier and Petrine’s are distinct, just like Schwartz’s wide 9 all had unique qualities.  It’s in how these are applied and 2013 they had the horses to apply well.

 

The book’s not written in 2021 just like no one predicted, none of you or me that our offense would explode to the second best in the league and broke a ton of records.  Victory, I hope you’re right and our defense moves from 14th to top 3-5 as McD did it in 18 and 19.

 

I think more reasonably we should crack the top 10.  Star has usefulness so to make your eoriginal comments I don’t agree.  He’s not a savior, but he doesn’t suck either.

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Nice try, but not again.  It was not Hugh G. Rection.  I had to throw out my computer after that google search. 

Sounds like a personal problem.

[RoyBatty is alive]

On 6/27/2021 at 8:24 AM, IgotBILLStopay said:

Dareus 2013 >> Star 2021. Dareus was the single greatest DT talent at the time and was playing for his next contract.

Hughes 2013 >> Hughes 2021 Age is a biatch

Kyle 2013 ~ Oliver 2021 OK this may be a wash since I do love Oliver - but Kyle was Kyle ya know

Mario Williams 2013 >> Rousseau / Epenesa / Basham 2021 . Super Mario was the #1 overall pick for a reason man!!

 

I think if they come close it will be a good achievement, but no way, at this time can we make the statement that 2021 DL >> 2013 DL

 

But, just to humor OP - the 2021 DL does have calling cards that 2013 did not have -

 

1. Depth: 2013 the drop off from the top 4 was huge.

2. Much as I liked Pettine, I think McD- Frazier have a better Defensive system

 

So, it all depends on how quickly the rookies / Epenesa / Oliver takeoff. 

 

 

I would agree with all of your assertions but not ready to say Mario >>Rousseau/Epenesa/Basham.  All three of those guys have unknown capabilities, even Epenesa with the way his weight is varying so much.  And IMO, Williams was sporadic, had great games intermixed with mediocre efforts.

[Patrick Duffy]

I'm not sure they will be better than 2013 DL. I certainly hope it is the case, but with so much that's unknown with the 2 rookies I assume will get some rotation and Hughs another year older, I find it hard to believe myself this DL will be better than 2013.

 

Bills had a damn good DL back then for sure. Be nice to have that same 2013 DL production now with the LB's they have. Anyways, I just hope to see good improvement up front. But don't think I see this DL making that big of a step surpassing 2013's DL.

 

Here's to hoping though....

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

On 6/27/2021 at 9:57 AM, NewEra said:

Haha!! Let me tell you something