Fairburn would swap Allen for Mahomes. Would you?

[ganesh]

This question is like who would you rather have:  Jim Kelly or   either of Marino, Elway or Young......

[PrimeTime101]

6 hours ago, FireChans said:

The correct answer is yes.

But I would say that you could play this game with would you trade X QB for Allen and that would be a yes for 30 teams in the NFL. Which counts for something.

Can you really have a higher ceiling than league MVP and Super Bowl winner?

must be a real nice shiny crystal ball. I am not expecting Mahomes to go to the superbowl every year. I mean I get what your saying in this reply your saying Josh wont be as good and or better then Mahomes. Till this year is over none of us can say either way.

[FireChans]

18 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

must be a real nice shiny crystal ball. I am not expecting Mahomes to go to the superbowl every year. I mean I get what your saying in this reply your saying Josh wont be as good and or better then Mahomes. Till this year is over none of us can say either way.

Josh might! 
 

The real crystal ball guys are the ones who are saying they wouldn’t take a superior player because he will.

[hondo in seattle]

I voted no.   There's not much of a gap between them anymore.   And its been decades since we've had a successful signal caller in Buffalo.   Josh is thriving here and his teammates love him.  Why mess with that?

[Gugny]

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

This question is like who would you rather have:  Jim Kelly or   either of Marino, Elway or Young......

 

Marino, Elway or Young.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Gugny

[Sherlock Holmes]

3 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

He didn't like Allen coming out, had a low grade on him. He did like Mason Rudolph though.

I also liked Rudolph but as a 2nd string.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Sherlock Holmes

[Tcali]

I would take mahomes on skill. JA is a super athlete for a white guy and a great kid and a winner. Close call.

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

This question is like who would you rather have:  Jim Kelly or   either of Marino, Elway or Young......

I love Jim---but I would take any of the other 3 over him.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

Strictly player for player. I'd take mahomes

 

But for buffalo and the bills I don't know if any player has been a better fit as Josh Allen

[NoHuddleKelly12]

As has been said upthread, Allen’s ceiling is still in front of us—Mahomes for as great as he is, I don’t think there’s more yet to plumb in terms of raw potential…it’s crazy to think where Allen can still go, even after last year's revelation. Solid no trade here. 

[Utah John]

Each player's team built their offense around their skills and both played great last year.

 

Here's why I would take Mahomes over dearly beloved Josh Allen:  performance in the playoffs.  Allen played poorly in the loss to the Texans.  He didn't play particularly well in the playoff wins over the Colts and Ravens, and he looked bad in the loss to the Chiefs.

 

The only time I've seen Mahomes not play really well in a playoff game is last year's Super Bowl, when the Bucs pass rush against a team with a banged up O line dominated, and created a very un-Mahomes type game.

 

When Allen shows he can consistently play great in playoff games, I'll change my vote.

8 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

As has been said upthread, Allen’s ceiling is still in front of us—Mahomes for as great as he is, I don’t think there’s more yet to plumb in terms of raw potential…it’s crazy to think where Allen can still go, even after last year's revelation. Solid no trade here. 

Which direction will Allen go in?  Toward Mahomes' level?  Or to Carson Wentz's level?  A couple of years ago people were saying about Wentz what they said about Allen last year.  Then the bottom fell out.  I do NOT think that will happen with Allen, who has worked too hard to fall apart now.  But the point is, predictions are hard, particularly about the future.  (Thanks Yogi.)

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

 

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Josh Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, Robert Foster and Charles Clay and an offensive line full of general junk other than a rookie Dion Dawkins.

 

It's truly incredible how bad that supporting cast was for Allen his rookie year. At the time we didn't really know it because it was like, well, the QB is kind of raw too and he's a rookie so maybe these guys are being held back by the guy throwing the ball?

 

But now three years later we know that three of the main receivers that year never played another down of football after that season. Andre Holmes, Charley Clay and Kelvin Benjamin. And it's not like these guys were 35 years old. They just weren't good anymore. 

 

Foster? His career year was Allen's rookie year and since then he's moved on to another team and been irrelevant.

Zay Jones? Same story as Foster. Career year with Allen and irrelevant with the Raiders.

McCoy? Allen's rookie year was his last year as a lead back. 

 

Then Beasley and Brown show up in 2019 and boom both have career years with Allen.

 

Diggs comes in 2020 and has a career year.

 

There seems to be a strong trend of players teaming up with Allen and Allen getting the most out of those players. I'm excited about Sanders coming in. It's probably unrealistic to expect Sanders to have a career year with Allen at the age of 34 but I think 900+ yards is a strong possibility which would be a return to real relevance for him. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

This is why ceiling is a terrible argument. If Josh isn’t as good as Mahomes right now, you can just say he “hasn’t hit his ceiling yet.” Well what’s his ceiling? What if his ceiling is current Pat Mahomes? What if Pat Mahomes’ ceiling is way higher than Josh Allen’s ceiling? Is the only argument that Josh has a higher ceiling or hasn’t hit his ceiling yet because he wasn’t great his first two season and Mahomes was?

 

 One QB is 6'5" 240 and plays like a cross between Big Ben, Cam Newton and Brett Favre. I would say that is the one with the higher ceiling. 

 

I would expect BOTH QB's to become better QB's, but not necessarily put up better numbers. What I mean by that is that perhaps we have seen the best statistical season from Mahomes already. Kelce is likely not in his prime anymore like he was in Mahomes first three seasons starting. Hill likely not quite as fast.  Either or both of these things could mean Mahomes highest ceiling is never reached again even if he himself becomes a better QB. Same could also be true for Allen of course as well with the exception that Allen has never played three seasons with two elite future HOF receivers in their prime. 

[PrimeTime101]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Josh might! 
 

The real crystal ball guys are the ones who are saying they wouldn’t take a superior player because he will.

or he wont. books not written on Josh yet

 

[Rocky Landing]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

Correct. And I would predict that the guy who has been consistently better will continue to consistently better. Versus the guy who hasn’t been better, let alone consistently better.

OK.

But, as a homer, I'm willing to place more value on trajectory, and where that trajectory might land, and how that might translate towards potential, than I am on consistency. And, to be fair to Allen, his upwards trajectory is, by no means, indicative of inconsistency. In fact, it's an easy argument to make that Allens progress has been entirely consistent.

 

If Mahomes continues to be consistently great, and Allen continues to get consistently better, then I will wager that down the road, Allen ends up the better quarterback.

 

And I apologize for continuing to argue in semantics, but this is, after all, an entirely hypothetical discussion in the first place. But, at least we can agree the it is, indeed, an actual debate.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Rocky Landing

[eball]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion.  Ask who is the better QB, allen or Mahomes, outside of a Bills message board and I feel the answer would be definitive at this point in the more careers.  
 

I don’t think either of them have reached their ceilings tbh.  Allen may eventually be the better qb.....but I don’t see how anyone can say that Josh is better than Mahomes after what each qb has done so far

“So far” is the key here. Right now I think it’s a much closer proposition than you do.

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, eball said:

“So far” is the key here. Right now I think it’s a much closer proposition than you do.

Well, I did say he “is” the better qb. I didn’t say he will always be the better qb.  We can only judge them by what they’ve done so far and Mahomes is, imo, clearly the better QB based on his accomplishments to date.  There really isn’t any debate is there?  We can’t judge players on “well, if so and so played with this player and that player than he’d be the best player”.  Well, if Matt Ryan was on the Patriots and Tom Brady was on the Jets, Ryan would be the GOAT and brady would have zero titles.  Brady is the GOAT and Ryan has zero titles.  We talk about what players have actually accomplished.  
 

Once Josh accomplishes more and more, and I believe he will, then the dynamics of this conversation may change.....but as of right now, there is no argument for Josh being better than Mahomes 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

I don’t think either of them have reached their ceilings tbh.  Allen may eventually be the better qb.....but I don’t see how anyone can say that Josh is better than Mahomes after what each qb has done so far

 

Well one way to look at this is that it is completely irrelevant what either QB did beyond just last season. Just looking at last season can you tell who the better QB was? Statistically they were near identical in both passer rating and QBR. And they both heavily carried their teams. Neither was a low attempt QB or completely carried or bailed out by a great defense. Taking everything into account; schedule, offensive weapons, team defense etc. I think I would say Allen by a smidge. 

 

The questions really becomes how much weight should we give the past. Allen couldn't complete a pass his rookie year. But how is that even relevant to today? Half those receivers are not even in the league anymore and hell Mahomes didn't even play his rookie year.

[FireChans]

37 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

OK.

But, as a homer, I'm willing to place more value on trajectory, and where that trajectory might land, and how that might translate towards potential, than I am on consistency. And, to be fair to Allen, his upwards trajectory is, by no means, indicative of inconsistency. In fact, it's an easy argument to make that Allens progress has been entirely consistent.

 

If Mahomes continues to be consistently great, and Allen continues to get consistently better, then I will wager that down the road, Allen ends up the better quarterback.

 

And I apologize for continuing to argue in semantics, but this is, after all, an entirely hypothetical discussion in the first place. But, at least we can agree the it is, indeed, an actual debate.

This “trajectory” business only exists because ALLEN WAS ONCE NOT GOOD.

I think we can both agree that with time in the league, both QBs will obtain a mastery of the position more than they do today. However, implying that somehow Allen has a “better” trajectory simply because he used to be not good and now he’s looking great just holds no water with me. 
 

Peyton Manning had an error filled rookie year. His team was not successful. His next few seasons, he cleaned it up and became great. Tom Brady was extremely successful from the jump (albeit he wasn’t slinging day 1) and he eventually improved quite a bit as well. But Brady ended up the better QB. Peyton had the “trajectory.” It didn’t matter.

 

Starting out not good and becoming great is not an indicator that you will eventually be better than a great player who started out great. It just isn’t.

Edited May 24, 2021 by FireChans

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Another way to look at this debate as well is that it is a bet against Allen.

 

If one acknowledges that Allen was the better QB last year, and while that is certainly up for debate I think there's definitely a strong case to be made that he was. If one chooses Mahomes then in the end we are betting that in the next 15 years to come despite Allen being the better QB last season by a smidge or whatever perceived difference one chooses, more often than not and at least 8 out of the next 15 years Mahomes will have the better season. 

 

Looking at just last year and not taking any other years prior into account then taking either side of that bet would feel like flipping a coin. But of course it is the years prior for both players that makes it feel like Mahomes is the sure thing or safer option compared to Allen even though that's likely not reality now given the here and now.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Starting out not good and becoming great is not an indicator that you will eventually be better than a great player who started out great. It just isn’t.

 

That is true. But I don't think it is hard to see why Allen has such a high trajectory or ceiling. He's starting to make a lot of the throws and plays Mahomes makes and at Mahomes level efficiency. And on top of that he's a couple inches taller, 20-30 pounds heavier and can run like Cam Newton. It's certainly not just Bills fans that see his high ceiling either. Greg Cosell, Chris Simms, Jordan Palmer are a few others who see it as well. 

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Well one way to look at this is that it is completely irrelevant what either QB did beyond just last season. Just looking at last season can you tell who the better QB was? Statistically they were near identical in both passer rating and QBR. And they both heavily carried their teams. Neither was a low attempt QB or completely carried or bailed out by a great defense. Taking everything into account; schedule, offensive weapons, team defense etc. I think I would say Allen by a smidge. 

 

The questions really becomes how much weight should we give the past. Allen couldn't complete a pass his rookie year. But how is that even relevant to today? Half those receivers are not even in the league anymore and hell Mahomes didn't even play his rookie year.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion.  
 

You’re right, Allen being terrible in his rookie year does nothing to show his greatness.  But Mahomes winning MVP leading his team to 3 straight championship games and coming back in the SB vs a great defense to win a SB and SB MVP is absolutely evidence of his greatness.  It’s proven. There’s a reason he is recognized as the best QB in the league according to most. You don’t have to recognize him as such of you don’t want to.  I feel that it’s preposterous to crown Josh allen, the QB that Mahomes defeated soundly two times last season, as better than Mahomes.  The season in which you say Allen overtook him and became the best......allen was terrible in 2 games vs the guy that he is supposedly better than.  Your equation doesn’t add up..... but you can feel that way if you want.  Your claims won’t fall on deaf ears here.  The only people that will agree with you atm will be found on this board.  I’m just not one of them......yet

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

That is true. But I don't think it is hard to see why Allen has such a high trajectory or ceiling. He's starting to make a lot of the throws and plays Mahomes makes and at Mahomes level efficiency. And on top of that he's a couple inches taller, 20-30 pounds heavier and can run like Cam Newton. It's certainly not just Bills fans that see his high ceiling either. Greg Cosell, Chris Simms, Jordan Palmer are a few others who see it as well. 

If you want to make the argument that if Mahomes and Allen somehow became equal passers, Allen would be the better QB, I would definitely NOT disagree. 
 

But they have to get there. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Utah John said:

Each player's team built their offense around their skills and both played great last year.

 

Here's why I would take Mahomes over dearly beloved Josh Allen:  performance in the playoffs.  Allen played poorly in the loss to the Texans.  He didn't play particularly well in the playoff wins over the Colts and Ravens, and he looked bad in the loss to the Chiefs.

 

The only time I've seen Mahomes not play really well in a playoff game is last year's Super Bowl, when the Bucs pass rush against a team with a banged up O line dominated, and created a very un-Mahomes type game.

 

When Allen shows he can consistently play great in playoff games, I'll change my vote.

 

26/35 for 324 yards, 2TDs and 0INTS

 

chipped in another 50 yards rushing and another TD

 

 

[Jpsredemption]

Mahomes. Guy has historic, best of all time type numbers through 4 years and he sat one of them. If we are being honest it’s not even close.

[eball]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Well, I did say he “is” the better qb. I didn’t say he will always be the better qb.  We can only judge them by what they’ve done so far and Mahomes is, imo, clearly the better QB based on his accomplishments to date.  There really isn’t any debate is there?  We can’t judge players on “well, if so and so played with this player and that player than he’d be the best player”.  Well, if Matt Ryan was on the Patriots and Tom Brady was on the Jets, Ryan would be the GOAT and brady would have zero titles.  Brady is the GOAT and Ryan has zero titles.  We talk about what players have actually accomplished.  
 

Once Josh accomplishes more and more, and I believe he will, then the dynamics of this conversation may change.....but as of right now, there is no argument for Josh being better than Mahomes 

 

Actually, these sorts of discussions in sports ARE all about “what ifs” and the like.  Yes, we can only see what has occurred, but we can openly wonder what would happen in different circumstances.  My opinion is that if you asked all NFL GMs the question of whether they wanted Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen right now, going forward, it would not be 32-0.

[dgrochester55]

As great as Allen was last year, Mahomes is the better QB until The Bills can win a Super Bowl and start consistently beating the Chiefs.   With that being said, I would not make the trade.   Both players are perfect fits for their team and culture and I am not sure that either one would improve in their new scenario.

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Actually, these sorts of discussions in sports ARE all about “what ifs” and the like.  Yes, we can only see what has occurred, but we can openly wonder what would happen in different circumstances.  My opinion is that if you asked all NFL GMs the question of whether they wanted Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen right now, going forward, it would not be 32-0.

 

I agree it wouldn't be 32-0. I think Allen would get around a third of the votes.

[eball]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree it wouldn't be 32-0. I think Allen would get around a third of the votes.

 

That’s my thinking as well.  2020 was the first year Allen had a legitimate #1 WR.  Mahomes has had Hill and Kelce — two of the best receivers in the game — his entire career.  That takes nothing away from what Mahomes has accomplished but it provides some perspective.

 

2021 is going to be a very interesting season for a number of reasons, but I believe the budding “Allen vs. Mahomes” debate will get a lot more heated.

 

The question of “who’s the better QB” aside, I have no doubt Josh landed in the perfect place for him and for the team, and it appears Mahomes did as well.  Flip-flop them and I really don’t know that anyone can predict what would have happened.

 

[machine gun kelly]

15 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Oh wait, I don’t have one.

 

Um yeah Allen. 

[Captain Hindsight]

I wouldnt make that trade just so we dont have to deal with mahommes dumbass brother and mother

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion.  
 

You’re right, Allen being terrible in his rookie year does nothing to show his greatness.  But Mahomes winning MVP leading his team to 3 straight championship games and coming back in the SB vs a great defense to win a SB and SB MVP is absolutely evidence of his greatness.  It’s proven. There’s a reason he is recognized as the best QB in the league according to most. You don’t have to recognize him as such of you don’t want to.  I feel that it’s preposterous to crown Josh allen, the QB that Mahomes defeated soundly two times last season, as better than Mahomes.  The season in which you say Allen overtook him and became the best......allen was terrible in 2 games vs the guy that he is supposedly better than.  Your equation doesn’t add up..... but you can feel that way if you want.  Your claims won’t fall on deaf ears here.  The only people that will agree with you atm will be found on this board.  I’m just not one of them......yet

 

I don't disagree when looking at the entire careers. Mahomes is absolutely the safer bet when looking at all three years of each player starting. But as I said, it's another way to look at the debate. Looking at ONLY 2020 for both players does seem to make more sense in a debate of the here and now and into the future. Particularly with Allen where 2018 just feels completely irrelevant and there's not an apples to apples comparison because Mahomes didn't play his rookie year and started out the gate with two future HOF level talents.

 

Head to head? Is that relevant in what is the ultimate team sport? For years Peyton was the best QB in the game despite Brady and the Patriots getting the better of him year after year. But you couldn't find anyone outside of New England that would say Brady was better than Peyton. Not until at least 2007 and really, probably even later like 2011. 

 

The losses to KC and the offenses below average production in both games is in large part due to scheme. Bills offense is entirely too WR centric to match up well against the Chiefs defense. If that doesn't change there's a very good chance the Bills and Allen will face the same fate next year against the Chiefs when we play them. That won't mean at all that Allen can't end up having again the better MVP season like he had last year. 

[BarleyNY]

7 hours ago, Utah John said:

Each player's team built their offense around their skills and both played great last year.

 

Here's why I would take Mahomes over dearly beloved Josh Allen:  performance in the playoffs.  Allen played poorly in the loss to the Texans.  He didn't play particularly well in the playoff wins over the Colts and Ravens, and he looked bad in the loss to the Chiefs.

 

The only time I've seen Mahomes not play really well in a playoff game is last year's Super Bowl, when the Bucs pass rush against a team with a banged up O line dominated, and created a very un-Mahomes type game.

 

When Allen shows he can consistently play great in playoff games, I'll change my vote.

Which direction will Allen go in?  Toward Mahomes' level?  Or to Carson Wentz's level?  A couple of years ago people were saying about Wentz what they said about Allen last year.  Then the bottom fell out.  I do NOT think that will happen with Allen, who has worked too hard to fall apart now.  But the point is, predictions are hard, particularly about the future.  (Thanks Yogi.)

This is exactly where I am.  While I’m certainly not saying that Allen can’t take that next step - after all, he’s taken so many already - it’s pure homerism to chose a QB who has already done so over one who hasn’t.

[HOUSE]

Mahomes has weak toes

 

pass

 

 

[Charles Romes]

Though chiefs fans would not like to acknowledge you have to factor in Mahomes’ concussion history. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

22 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Mahomes has weak toes

 

pass

 

 

Another potential candidate for my hockey boot / football shoe.  That adds Mahomes to my list with Kroft and 'Fragile Sammy Watkins'. 👍

[GunnerBill]

58 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I don't disagree when looking at the entire careers. Mahomes is absolutely the safer bet when looking at all three years of each player starting. But as I said, it's another way to look at the debate. Looking at ONLY 2020 for both players does seem to make more sense in a debate of the here and now and into the future. Particularly with Allen where 2018 just feels completely irrelevant and there's not an apples to apples comparison because Mahomes didn't play his rookie year and started out the gate with two future HOF level talents.

 

Head to head? Is that relevant in what is the ultimate team sport? For years Peyton was the best QB in the game despite Brady and the Patriots getting the better of him year after year. But you couldn't find anyone outside of New England that would say Brady was better than Peyton. Not until at least 2007 and really, probably even later like 2011. 

 

The losses to KC and the offenses below average production in both games is in large part due to scheme. Bills offense is entirely too WR centric to match up well against the Chiefs defense. If that doesn't change there's a very good chance the Bills and Allen will face the same fate next year against the Chiefs when we play them. That won't mean at all that Allen can't end up having again the better MVP season like he had last year. 

 

Couldn't find anyone outside New England to say Brady was better than Manning? I mean I am in old England but I'd say it....

 

I also don't agree that looking only at 2020 makes more sense for assessing the future. It does to an extent for Josh because he has only played at that elite level for 1 year but Mahomes has played at an elite level for 3 years. It makes no sense to discount the other two.

[Greg S]

Both are great players but I voted no. Allen is our QB and I believe we will win a Super Bowl with him. I think when its all said and done he will replace Kelly as the greatest QB in franchise history.

[dpberr]

I said no for two reasons:

 

1.  I think the injuries will start to accrue for PM this year.  I don't think that foot is ever going to be 100%.  He had a pretty severe case of turf toe that required a plate, and that's going to nag each and every season.  That's not to say Josh Allen will zip through his career Tom Brady style, but I think PM will be more limited not only as a season goes on, but with each new year too.   

 

2.  Andy Reid's time on the sidelines is closer to the end than it is the beginning, and you really don't know if his system makes PM great or PM is just great. The Andy Reid system can make quarterbacks look incredible (see Nick Foles).  I think the McDermott-Allen relationship has more years in it.  

[HappyDays]

9 hours ago, Utah John said:

He didn't play particularly well in the playoff wins over the Colts

 

When did this become the narrative? Allen was the best player on the field in that game. We won the game primarily because of his play. He made ONE mistake.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

23 minutes ago, dpberr said:

I said no for two reasons:

 

1.  I think the injuries will start to accrue for PM this year.  I don't think that foot is ever going to be 100%.  He had a pretty severe case of turf toe that required a plate, and that's going to nag each and every season.  That's not to say Josh Allen will zip through his career Tom Brady style, but I think PM will be more limited not only as a season goes on, but with each new year too.   

 

2.  Andy Reid's time on the sidelines is closer to the end than it is the beginning, and you really don't know if his system makes PM great or PM is just great. The Andy Reid system can make quarterbacks look incredible (see Nick Foles).  I think the McDermott-Allen relationship has more years in it.  

very good point.