Something that I worry about...would we see a Wentz like regression in Allen if Daboll leaves?

[Big Turk]

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

[SCBills]

I doubt it.  Allen has way more ability than Wentz, and seems much more driven.  

 

Although, if we lose Daboll, replace him with trash and then dismantle our OL, while providing PS skill position talent... then yes, it could be a problem.  ...but even then, we've seen Allen on a talent-less Offense as a rookie - It wasn't pretty, but he was still dangerous.  I don't see him ever becoming Wentz.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by SCBills

[Real McClappy]

Wentz Oline and much lacking WR corps is a huge problem. 

 

Reminds me of Allen's first year honestly.

[The Frankish Reich]

You might see this if Josh rips up his knee and then loses all his offensive weapons and any semblance of a professional offensive

line. 
I think Wentz has a second act. Just not in Philly. 

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

The Eagles offensive line and receiver group are absolutely rock bottom-level right now. Both units have been utterly decimated by injuries. Wentz was good last season, and the offense was solid too (12th in points, 14th in yards). It's the talent this time around. Not that Wentz gets a full pass, but the line simply can't block and the receivers can't separate.

[The BLUES Brothers]

Speaking of the Eagles -  did you see what they did to this guy?

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/12/01/someone-bet-500000-on-the-seahawks-giving-6-5/

 

$500K bet Loss on the late TD and 2 point conversion...YIKES! Hard to get happy after that one....

[DrDawkinstein]

One thing is clear from the past 2 days... This board LOVES over-valuing Frank Reich and what he did as "OC" in Philly.

 

I totally understand it, given his history in Buffalo. But crediting him as the main reason for the Eagles success is just over-blowing it.

[JGMcD2]

10 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

Can someone clue me in on the offense that Wentz was running early on in Philadelphia?

 

It seems to me that Daboll has forced Josh to go down a more traditional path and learn all of the really hard stuff from the get go. I think that bodes well for long term development because anyone who potentially comes in after Daboll, likely won’t be running as complex of an offense. 
 

Just a thought 

[Jobot]

If onlys and buts were candys and nuts, then everday would be Ernetedankfest

[foreboding]

It is weird as Wentz is clearly a very talented guy. Losing Reich must have hurt, but as other posters mentioned, the lack of a surrounding cast is inexplicable. I just think Josh is far too completive, and maybe I am up to my chin in the Kool-aide, but I think the sky is the limit with our kid and I cannot fathom him falling as hard as Wentz. He seems to lack confidence right now, though he seems to wear a game face and try. I do think the Wentz story is far from over, he will re-emerge at some point.

 

Just now, JGMcD2 said:

Can someone clue me in on the offense that Wentz was running early on in Philadelphia?

 

It seems to me that Daboll has forced Josh to go down a more traditional path and learn all of the really hard stuff from the get go. I think that bodes well for long term development because anyone who potentially comes in after Daboll, likely won’t be running as complex of an offense. 
 

Just a thought 

Interesting perspective. Kind of like they did with RG3 his first year and even Lamar. 

[dave mcbride]

Just now, foreboding said:

It is weird as Wentz is clearly a very talented guy. Losing Reich must have hurt, but as other posters mentioned, the lack of a surrounding cast is inexplicable. I just think Josh is far too completive, and maybe I am up to my chin in the Kool-aide, but I think the sky is the limit with our kid and I cannot fathom him falling as hard as Wentz. He seems to lack confidence right now, though he seems to wear a game face and try. I do think the Wentz story is far from over, he will re-emerge at some point.

 

To reiterate, Wentz actually played well last season, two years removed from Reich. The Eagles offense did reasonably well too despite real talent problems at the skill positions (12th in points, 14th in yards). 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

No!

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

To reiterate, Wentz actually played well last season, two years removed from Reich. The Eagles offense did reasonably well too despite real talent problems at the skill positions (12th in points, 14th in yards). 

 

But even last year people were talking about that there was something wrong with him and that he wasn't playing well...I think this is a case of the stats not lining up with how he was actually playing.

Edited December 2, 2020 by matter2003

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

 

I think it’s a real concern, but in the end, it’s really up to Josh Allen.

 

Brett Kollman just did a film room piece on Wentz which is interesting, in that it calls out many of the same tendencies that Allen has: the tendency to overstride that messes up his mechanics especially on deep outs to the L; the tendency to hero-ball.   The unwillingness to take what the defense gives him and the open (albeit short yardage) receivers he has.

 

But he also points out how Peterson’s play calling tendencies, unchecked and unfiltered by an OC this year, have played into Wentz’s natural flaws

 

A number of people who have interviewed Josh have called him the most “self aware” QB they’ve talked to.  Beane and McDermott and Daboll have explained when they did Allen’s exit interview, he came into the interview with a list of everything they had marked out that they wanted him to work on.  As long as Allen maintains that self-awareness and work ethic, it will matter less who he works with.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, matter2003 said:

 

But even last year people were talking about that there was something wrong with him and that he wasn't playing well...I think this is a case of the stats not lining up with how he was actually playing.

I think people were saying that when they were 5-7, but not when he went 4-0 down the stretch and willed the team to victory despite being surrounded by pretty mediocre offensive talent. He played extremely well and was clutch in that span. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

My thoughts - he wasn't this bad in 2018, or 2019 and reich was already gone.  The team has been missing the following players:

 

Alshon Jeffery

Zach Ertz - Their best player

Andre Dillard

Brandon Brooks

 

Tie that up with Peters missing time, sanders missing time, goodwin opted out and jackson hit IR.  Lane Johnsons on IR now, and has been banged up.  

 

They have had no WRs all year that can just, get open.  Reagor's been banged up, but he's also a rookie whos biggest asset is speed.  Fulgham was nice for fantasy but his playing time was a function of the 4 guys on the depth chart ahead of him being hurt or opting  out. 

[Gugny]

20 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I doubt it.  Allen has way more ability than Wentz, and seems much more driven.  

 

Although, if we lose Daboll, replace him with trash and then dismantle our OL, while providing PS skill position talent... then yes, it could be a problem.  ...but even then, we've seen Allen on a talent-less Offense as a rookie - It wasn't pretty, but he was still dangerous.  I don't see him ever becoming Wentz.

 

 

 

Exactly this, IMO.

 

Not a lot of Wentz's decline has been on him.  His current situation isn't a hell of a lot better than Darnold's right now.

 

[SCBills]

6 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Exactly this, IMO.

 

Not a lot of Wentz's decline has been on him.  His current situation isn't a hell of a lot better than Darnold's right now.

 

With Mims, Perriman and Crowder healthy now, I’d take the Jets Offense 10 times out of 10 against the garbage the Eagles have given Wentz. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Can someone clue me in on the offense that Wentz was running early on in Philadelphia?

 

It seems to me that Daboll has forced Josh to go down a more traditional path and learn all of the really hard stuff from the get go. I think that bodes well for long term development because anyone who potentially comes in after Daboll, likely won’t be running as complex of an offense. 
 

Just a thought 

 

This is actually a very good point.  The Bills and Daboll took a lot of criticism (including from me) for trying to run a full, complex NFL offense with Allen right from the bat.  A lot of people were saying they should do what the Ravens did and run a lot of  RPOs / tailor the offense more around Allen’s run game.  I can’t remember everyone who said that - Trent Dilfer was one, I think, I know at least 2 or 3 others.  Anyway, the theme was “super smart Eagles, super duper smart Ravens, tailoring the offense to their QB, Dumb Daboll making him learn all those hard reads”.

 

Daboll wasn’t having it.  It was “root Hog or Die”, they wanted a QB who could operate from the pocket as a passer and they were either going to have one in Allen or bust.  I didn’t want them to go full-on Ravens but I thought that Daboll could have slimmed and simplified the playbook a bit then added complexity as the team matured, sort of like Gailey did here.

 

It’s still a point that Allen needs to be protected from himself a bit - he needs to be given that OL time he needs to stay on platform and not revert to his overstriding or inadequate follow-through mechanical roots, and he needs to be constantly and gently encouraged and mentored to TAKE WHAT THE DEFENSE GIVES YOU DAMMIT I DONT CARE WHAT FAVRE SAID (like the mule trained with loving kindness, where first you gotta get his attention).

 

And I think it’s a point that somewhere in all the staff turnover on the Eagles, Wentz seems to have lost the voice that was serving that role for him.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

27 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

 

I mentioned this elsewhere - but I think they'd try and secure Mike Shula.  I'm sure people would hate another carolina connection, but hes a QB coach currently and its a promotion.  He did good things with Cam, and has some Erhardt-Perkins experience.  Knowing you're working with McD and Beane - as well as allen and the talent on offense - is rather appealing as an OC gig.

[JohnNord]

25 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

There’s a lot of parallels between Wentz and Allen, but I’m not so sure I’d worry about this.  First off Wentz not only lost Reich but his QB Joe DiFiliipo who many said was instrumental in his development.  
 

If Daboll does leave for a HC position, I would bet anything that Ken Dorsey becomes OC.  So it’s not like they’ll bring in Adam Gase as OC with a completely different system.

 

Also part of Wentz this year has been the poor roster put around him.  He might have the worst skill players.  Of course, his contract likely affected some of the roster moves they could’ve made

[Teddy KGB]

I don’t think the 2 are related.   

[Buffalo Junction]

19 minutes ago, dneveu said:

My thoughts - he wasn't this bad in 2018, or 2019 and reich was already gone.  The team has been missing the following players:

 

Alshon Jeffery

Zach Ertz - Their best player

Andre Dillard

Brandon Brooks

 

Tie that up with Peters missing time, sanders missing time, goodwin opted out and jackson hit IR.  Lane Johnsons on IR now, and has been banged up.  

 

They have had no WRs all year that can just, get open.  Reagor's been banged up, but he's also a rookie whos biggest asset is speed.  Fulgham was nice for fantasy but his playing time was a function of the 4 guys on the depth chart ahead of him being hurt or opting  out. 

Fulgham looked substantially better that Jeffrey has since his return. Not getting him on the field more is perplexing to me. 

[Buftex]

53 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

You might see this if Josh rips up his knee and then loses all his offensive weapons and any semblance of a professional offensive

line. 
I think Wentz has a second act. Just not in Philly. 

Reich is going to need somebody to replace Rivers sooner than later... a reunion in Indianapolis perhaps?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Fulgham looked substantially better that Jeffrey has since his return. Not getting him on the field more is perplexing to me. 

 

He's not physical enough at the point of attack/against press man, and can't create separation consistently.  Injuries on the oline are likely one culprit, but receivers not getting open is another reason his sack rate is at almost 10%.

[GunnerBill]

58 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

To reiterate, Wentz actually played well last season, two years removed from Reich. The Eagles offense did reasonably well too despite real talent problems at the skill positions (12th in points, 14th in yards). 

 

See I think there were signs of regression last year. And then suddenly when the playoffs were on the line he played great at the end of the year with a cast of nobodies but it all felt a bit desperate and I think he was making plays despite everything through his natural talent. I think his fundamentals are absolutely shot. I would be surprised if he ever looks like the QB he was in 2017 and 2018 again frankly.

[rayray808]

Daboll leaving could also bring in a potential offensive mind that unlocks Allen the passer even more!

[Kwai San]

45 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

There’s a lot of parallels between Wentz and Allen, but I’m not so sure I’d worry about this.  First off Wentz not only lost Reich but his QB Joe DiFiliipo who many said was instrumental in his development.  
 

If Daboll does leave for a HC position, I would bet anything that Ken Dorsey becomes OC.  So it’s not like they’ll bring in Adam Gase as OC with a completely different system.

 

Also part of Wentz this year has been the poor roster put around him.  He might have the worst skill players.  Of course, his contract likely affected some of the roster moves they could’ve made

 

I gotta admit I almost threw up when I read that one......please god no Gase, for the love of god please no.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

Please don't take this wrong.   

 

 

 

[H2o]

I don't believe so. Josh is the type of guy who works harder to get better and build upon what he is already doing right. For as much as Daboll has helped Josh, Josh's work ethic has helped him the most. I also believe that if Daboll leaves we will fill the position in house with Ken Dorsey, who has been here for the last two years.  

[Kwai San]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I think there were signs of regression last year. And then suddenly when the playoffs were on the line he played great at the end of the year with a cast of nobodies but it all felt a bit desperate and I think he was making plays despite everything through his natural talent. I think his fundamentals are absolutely shot. I would be surprised if he ever looks like the QB he was in 2017 and 2018 again frankly.

 

My sister who is a HUGE Eagles fan agrees with this 1000%.  I am not so sure but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

[dave mcbride]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I think there were signs of regression last year. And then suddenly when the playoffs were on the line he played great at the end of the year with a cast of nobodies but it all felt a bit desperate and I think he was making plays despite everything through his natural talent. I think his fundamentals are absolutely shot. I would be surprised if he ever looks like the QB he was in 2017 and 2018 again frankly.

We'll see. I'd like to see him play with a decent cast around him again. 

[eball]

A lot of you people like to worry a lot. 

[BuffaloBill]

1 hour ago, The BLUES Brothers said:

Speaking of the Eagles -  did you see what they did to this guy?

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/12/01/someone-bet-500000-on-the-seahawks-giving-6-5/

 

$500K bet Loss on the late TD and 2 point conversion...YIKES! Hard to get happy after that one....

 

 

If you bet $500K then you stand to lose $500k.

[BillsVet]

The angst over trivial matters just gets ratcheted up a notch every time I visit the board.  

 

What if alien's abducted McD?  Would Frazier be able to fill in?  

 

What if Pegula's money is really just wrapped up in a secret Madoff ponzi scheme we don't know about?

 

What if the Bills are late to the NFL Draft and lose all their draft picks as punishment?  

 

Stop worrying and enjoy the season. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

36 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

If you bet $500K then you stand to lose $500k.

 

Plus other bets theoretically bet the other way won on the same 2 point conversion. 

[Irish Dave]

Daboll may never leave; remember - he grew up in Buffalo and is a life long Bills fan.  He went to St. Francis.  This is his dream job.  I'm not sure if he has kids - but I would bet/hope that if he does, he won't want to go anywhere else....

[Man with No Name]

25 minutes ago, Irish Dave said:

Daboll may never leave; remember - he grew up in Buffalo and is a life long Bills fan.  He went to St. Francis.  This is his dream job.  I'm not sure if he has kids - but I would bet/hope that if he does, he won't want to go anywhere else....

this is probably wishful thinking. head coaching opps might be once in a lifetime. you are only one terrible season away from no longer being considered a shining candidate. Maybe he doesn't leave for a sh!t job like the Jets or Detroit, but he will leave if given the chance at a promising opportunity. 

 

i think

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I think there were signs of regression last year. And then suddenly when the playoffs were on the line he played great at the end of the year with a cast of nobodies but it all felt a bit desperate and I think he was making plays despite everything through his natural talent. I think his fundamentals are absolutely shot. I would be surprised if he ever looks like the QB he was in 2017 and 2018 again frankly.

 

I agree with this...it was kind of unsustainable some of the things he did at the end of last year...more like "however I have to get it done" type of stuff...almost like Allen in his rookie year.

1 minute ago, Man with No Name said:

this is probably wishful thinking. head coaching opps might be once in a lifetime. you are only one terrible season away from no longer being considered a shining candidate. Maybe he doesn't leave for a sh!t job like the Jets or Detroit, but he will leave if given the chance at a promising opportunity. 

 

i think

 

I agree...but that doesn't mean he will be a good HC...huge skill set difference between what you need to be a good OC/DC and a head coach...much of it has nothing to do with football.

[Man with No Name]

1 minute ago, matter2003 said:

 

I agree with this...it was kind of unsustainable some of the things he did at the end of last year...more like "however I have to get it done" type of stuff...almost like Allen in his rookie year.

 

I agree...but that doesn't mean he will be a good HC...huge skill set difference between what you need to be a good OC/DC and a head coach...much of it has nothing to do with football.

im not sold on him as a head coach. im not even certain he's a great o coordinator. but i wouldn't give him up. the devil you know, all.