Was the Music City Miracle lateral legal? No bias, please answer honestly

[JMF2006]

As I have said before Karma gave that yard back at the Super Bowl.

 

 

[cle23]

1 hour ago, CajunBillsBacker said:

Blaming that loss on that play is as bad as Saints fans blaming the loss to the Rams on no pass interference. So many blown opportunities to put the game away that it shouldn’t have come down to a judgement call.

btw, I think it was ever so slightly backwards. It took years for me to come to that realization and acceptance.

 

Do you not see the picture 2 posts above yours? And for the 29th time, where the "thrower" is has absolutely no effect on the call. Only where the ball is released.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

I don't know, it was over 20 years ago and something I tend to forget about. rehashing it does nothing. wont change a thing, it is what it is and was what it was. it's history.

[JMF2006]

8 hours ago, DCOrange said:

I think it was pretty clearly a legal lateral. Looks like it travels at least a foot or two backwards. I've never really understood (apart from the emotions involved) why people actually believed it was a forward pass.

 

I love how at the end of the video the say"infamously lost by one yard"

 

karma baby we was robbed.

[CajunBillsBacker]

10 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

Do you not see the picture 2 posts above yours? And for the 29th time, where the "thrower" is has absolutely no effect on the call. Only where the ball is released.

Yes, exactly? That picture is pointing out that the ball traveled slightly backwards. Which is exactly what I said. What’s your point?

[cle23]

8 minutes ago, CajunBillsBacker said:

Yes, exactly? That picture is pointing out that the ball traveled slightly backwards. Which is exactly what I said. What’s your point?

 

My point is somehow I quoted the wrong person.

 

My post was intended for Xwnyer. 

[Artem Lipatov]

5 hours ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

 

It's a heartbreaking way to lose a playoffs game before 17years drought. That's why Bills fans can't accept it was a legal lateral.

But for me this picture is the end of discussion.

[Artem Lipatov]

8 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

We were not likely going to win another game anyway, we weren’t that good.  People hold on to this like it was a Kelly led team in his prime.

 

Why does anyone even still care about this game so much?  We weren’t close to the best team in the AFC

Bills lost to Titans by this miracle.

Titans lost Super Bowl by 1 yard.

It sounds like Bills had Super Bowl odds that year

[Happy]

7 hours ago, 1ManRaid said:

For a better sense of scale.

 

But please, keep crying about how it was SO OBVIOUS the ball "gained yardage" to be a forward pass.  Ball ended up no where near the 26, ended up closer to the 25 than when it was released.

 

What's your agenda, exactly?  We beat your sorry Titan team this year, when it counts.

[ExiledInIllinois]

9 hours ago, 1ManRaid said:

I'm not sure how you can say to pay attention to where the ball is and still say it was illegal.  Doesn't look like the ball was thrown from behind the line to me, he's reaching forward and throwing sidearm.

 

 

Look at the picture I made and show me where the ball "gained yardage".

Watch the video.  Still photos, especially ones spliced together, don't work. A still from anywhere along that axis will tell any story you want.

 

 

 

:20-:23

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by ExiledInIllinois

[Happy]

10 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Watch the video.  Still photos, especially ones spliced together, don't work. A still from anywhere along that axis will tell any story you want.

 

 

 

:20-:23

 

 

Correct.  The still photo is not at all clear and is misleading.  The video shows that it clearly was a forward pass.

[row_33]

yes, perfectly legal by sight and replay

 

watch rugby to get a better natural view of what a backward pass looks like in real time

[Kelly the Dog]

The point of the ball was facing forward, ergo a forward pass. 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

Absolutely a forward pass. 

[row_33]

since some fans highly prize resentment and grumbling and pissing and moaning, this was the perfect gift for this pathological mindset:

 

1)  a close play to convince yerself you got ripped off, you blame everything under the sun anyways so this is a good cow's cud to regurgitate and chew on for 60 years of your life;

 

and

 

2) your god Flutie was snubbed for this game, so you can nurse this grudge ON TOP OF the first point for the rest of your life

 

 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

It's clearly a lateral. I don't understand how this can even be debated anymore.

[Houston's #1 Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, mjt328 said:

Frank Wycheck was directly between the 24-25 yard line when he released the ball.

 

Kevin Dyson catches the ball on approximately the 26 yard line.

 

Do the math and you tell me.

E X A C T L Y

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Correct.  The still photo is not at all clear and is misleading.  The video shows that it clearly was a forward pass.

Stills are ALWAYS MISLEADING. Go anywhere along that axis and it will show anything you want.  Don't even attempt to win an argument by splicing two stills together = FakeNews!®

 

You have to watch it in real time.  He clearly throws it foward.

 

Well... At least they got it right last weekend with Marriota's illegal forward pass.  20 years too late!

[djp14150]

On 10/9/2019 at 5:25 PM, BrycePaup4ever said:

I wish it was in HD because it is grainy, but looking at it frame by frame (ya i need a life) i think it was legal by an inch or two. I also wonder why Wade even called a timeout before the FG kick. How often is there a bad snap where they cover it up and try again?Seemed like karma for Wade or Ralph for benching Flutie. Off the record, i dont think the special teams coach deserved to be fired over that.

its a niracle because it was a bad non call of a forward pass

[Nextmanup]

Back at the time of the game, a physics professor (I believe) at UB wrote a piece which I think appeared in the Buffalo News.

 

He analyzed everything there was to analyze and concluded the lateral was a forward pass.

 

I'm sure you can find it if you wander around on Google.

 

 

[FLFan]

It was a forward pass.  

[skibum]

I don't care. It's long gone, and bad calls are part of the game. Let the refs call it like they see it on the field, for better or worse. For the good of the game, I would much rather have questionable calls than instant replay, which ruins the experience in my opinion. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by skibum

[4_kidd_4]

So we crack the case here yet, fellas? Should we get Rob Johnson on the horn about the league mandated redo?

[Hurricane]

We landed on the moon!!

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

Back at the time of the game, a physics professor (I believe) at UB wrote a piece which I think appeared in the Buffalo News.

 

He analyzed everything there was to analyze and concluded the lateral was a forward pass.

 

I'm sure you can find it if you wander around on Google.

 

 

At this point it ultimately comes down to a simple question 

 

do you believe the refs should hold their flags unless it’s an egregious violation and “let em play” or do you think the flag comes out on anything borderline

 

 

[DCOrange]

On 10/9/2019 at 11:24 PM, ExiledInIllinois said:

It's obvious.  Forward.  He throws it on the line and the ball is caught in front of the line.

 

End of story.  The ball went forward, gained yardage.  Slow it down and look at it. Pretty obvious.  I just watched it again.  Ball gains yardage.

It would have been overturned today in HD and the incredible amount of cameras today. The ball was released on 25 and caught ahead of 25. Pretty obvious.

 

Wychek's foot was on the 25. The ball was not released anywhere near the 25. Where the ball was released is the important part.

 

The only logical reason that people can think it was a forwards pass is if they simply don't know what the rule is.

[Pokebball]

Actually, it wasn't clearly one or the other, which is why it's a controversy.  People are seeing what they want to see.  Where Wycheck and Dyson's body parts were don't matter.  I think the still photo evidence is actually pretty solid.  I don't understand the argument that it isn't.  One of those calls that comes down to the officials judgement.  Either way this was called, I don't think there's enough evidence to reverse the call on the field.

[1ManRaid]

On 10/10/2019 at 9:52 AM, Happy Gilmore said:

 

What's your agenda, exactly?  We beat your sorry Titan team this year, when it counts.

I'm sorry, when have I ever said anything indicating I was a Titans fan?  Thanks for further proving you are delusional.

 

I won't apologize for observing objective reality. 

[Bookie Man]

Are there any similarities between that team and this team? I think I remember a few ugly wins that year. 13 - 10 type games. Both great defenses. Both 4-1 starts. Cowart was a monster back then. 98 team was 11th in yards gained and #1 in yards against. I think this year they are currently 12th and 3rd, respectively. That 98 team was good, but more of a veteran core I think. This years team has a younger foundation and is being built for the haul. 

[1ManRaid]

On 10/10/2019 at 10:30 AM, ExiledInIllinois said:

Watch the video.  Still photos, especially ones spliced together, don't work. A still from anywhere along that axis will tell any story you want.

 

 

 

:20-:23

 

 

On 10/10/2019 at 10:42 AM, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Correct.  The still photo is not at all clear and is misleading.  The video shows that it clearly was a forward pass.

 

22 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Stills are ALWAYS MISLEADING. Go anywhere along that axis and it will show anything you want.  Don't even attempt to win an argument by splicing two stills together = FakeNews!®

 

You have to watch it in real time.  He clearly throws it foward.

 

Well... At least they got it right last weekend with Marriota's illegal forward pass.  20 years too late!

 

Except when the ONLY RELEVANT THINGS are where the release point of the throw, and the catch point are.  The ball can get caught in a twister and go zipping up and down and around the field, it doesn't matter.  The ball can be blatantly thrown forward 20 yards into the air, but if a gust of wind blows it back to the line of where it is thrown, that's all that matters.

 

Still photos are actually perfect for capturing those points as they eliminate the confusing "optical illusions" of the throw.  It's literally the opposite of misleading.  The video itself is what is misleading.  But then again, true homers don't care for facts so any I present to you will face willful ignorance. 

 

*edit*

I also object to "A still from anywhere along that axis will tell any story you want", because any story you could tell from ANY OTHER STILLS WOULD BE IRRELEVANT.  Seriously, I don't know how many times you have to be told that you can't just ignore the rules of a lateral for it to sink in.  You're doing exactly what you object to about the stills.  You are choosing to tell your own flawed story based on the rest of the "stills" that only incorrectly appear to show the ball going forward based on flawed and easily fooled human perceptions. 

 

18 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Back at the time of the game, a physics professor (I believe) at UB wrote a piece which I think appeared in the Buffalo News.

 

He analyzed everything there was to analyze and concluded the lateral was a forward pass.

 

I'm sure you can find it if you wander around on Google.

 

 

 

All that proves is professors can be ignorant of football rules as well.  That's the argument from authority fallacy.  "Your facts mean nothing because fancy man with a title disagrees with you".

 

Also anyone with an agenda can twist numbers and data to come to any conclusion they want.  That's university statistics 101.

Edited October 11, 2019 by 1ManRaid

[1ManRaid]

I bet you people insisting that the ball APPEARED to go forward failed those "which of these lines is longer" things as kids and call M.C. Escher pictures witchcraft.  Your eyes can easily be fooled, especially when you want to believe it.

[Big Turk]

Never knew this story...apparently in the offseason after this occurred they sent officials to every team to review rule changes and updates and one of the first clips they showed was this play and said it was an example of how they were good because they got the call right...Phillips said he and the other coaches were fuming and then they kicked them out of the facility.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/06/04/wade-phillips-kicked-officiating-crew-out-of-bills-facility-over-music-city-miracle/amp/

1 hour ago, DCOrange said:

 

Wychek's foot was on the 25. The ball was not released anywhere near the 25. Where the ball was released is the important part.

 

The only logical reason that people can think it was a forwards pass is if they simply don't know what the rule is.

Adam Schefter has said he had the best view of the play than anyone else from up in his spot in the press box at the game directly above where it happened and he said he immediately thought it was a forward pass and that nothing he has seen since then has changed his mind.

[1ManRaid]

1 minute ago, matter2003 said:

Never knew this story...apparently in the offseason after this occurred they sent officials to every team to review rule changes and updates and one of the first clips they showed was this play and said it was an example of how they were good because they got the call right...Phillips said he and the other coaches were fuming and then they kicked them out of the facility.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/06/04/wade-phillips-kicked-officiating-crew-out-of-bills-facility-over-music-city-miracle/amp/

 

An irrational and emotional response to a subject they had biases about.  Just like most on this forum.

[Your Brown Eye]

This wouldn't be a topic if the Special Teams just stayed in their damn lanes, but instead they looked like a bunch of elementary school kids chasing a soccer ball around

[Big Turk]

39 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

An irrational and emotional response to a subject they had biases about.  Just like most on this forum.

Nah just the truth.

 

Or are you one of these numnuts who believes all of these blatant pass interference non calls that get reviewed and not overturned aren't really PI?

[DCOrange]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

Adam Schefter has said he had the best view of the play than anyone else from up in his spot in the press box at the game directly above where it happened and he said he immediately thought it was a forward pass and that nothing he has seen since then has changed his mind.

Then he probably doesn't know the rule or just doesn't know what he saw. I doubt his view was any better than the one video that someone else posted where it's pretty much perfectly angled.

[wagon127]

The Ball is thrown right over top the 25 yard line, and is caught on the 25 yard line. So unless it went forward, and wind blew it backwards, it was the most perpendicular of lateral passes. It may have been an inch forward, or an inch backwards. There is no indisputable evidence to over turn the call, so the Titan win. The Bills beat themselves on that play.

[Big Turk]

Honestly i hve no idea why they just didnt kick the ball out of bounds and let them take it at the 40...McNair couldnt throw it 60 yards.

[njbuff]

"Oh those Bills Special Teams"

[uticaclub]

The NFL was desperate to turn Nashville into an NFL town after it left Houston. The Titans team, while solid, received many favorable calls as the NFL was trying to establish a new fan base. It was 100% a forward lateral and we were a victim for the NFL influencing a game to fit their narrative and what they felt was good for business.