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Was the Music City Miracle lateral legal? No bias, please answer honestly

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2 hours ago, Gugny said:

First the annual Could Bama .... thread.  Now this.

Whatchya drinkin'?

 

It's enough to make one ask "who else have I seen start piles of inane threads like this?"

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It is a forward pass no matter how you look at it. The refs were afraid because of the home crowd. As much of a soap opera as that 99 Bills team was it may have been the best Defense in the league that year. We win that game, we make the Superbowl. Zero question.

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's enough to make one ask "who else have I seen start piles of inane threads like this?"

IT's the bye week.....

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It was a forward pass.  And Schefter said he had the perfect view of the play and it was a forward pass and he has no reason to lie in favor of the Bills.

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5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's enough to make one ask "who else have I seen start piles of inane threads like this?"

 

Never during the season, Hap.  Never during the season.

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In hindsight it was horrific clock management.  However, at that time it was common strategy to leave enough time on the clock so you could re-try in the event of a bad snap.  Since that time, because of this one play, no one even thinks of kicking with more than 4 seconds left (except for McDermott before the half against the Bengals).  

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2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

No. It clearly went forward. 

 

That.

 

And additionally the benefit of the doubt should not be given on such a play...........kickoff coverage aren't supposed to have to defend forward passes.........if it's not CLEARLY a lateral it should be assumed a forward pass by officiating.

 

All that said..........you let a game come down to one score you are vulnerable to bad bounces or judgement calls..........so you better run a tight ship if you are a team that plays on the edge like that.    HC Wade Phillips and "attention to detail" were never synonymous.

 

One key difference we've seen between McDermott and Wade is that McD hasn't gone into denial when he's made mistakes.......Wade was obstinate about some pretty dumb things.......like not devoting practice time to special teams despite struggling during the season and then not being willing to admit he made a mistake firing DeHaven and hiring his bro pump-it-up Ronnie Jones.    Had to laugh when he wore a headset in Dallas when he got that job.  I guess knowing what plays your coordinators are calling is actually relevant to the position of HC.:lol:

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2 hours ago, clearwater cadet said:

1)I believe it was forward.

2) If that game is played in buffalo, it called a forward pass.

3) If Flutie starts it not even close, and never comes to that.

4) Why not just kick the ball out of the end zone? Please!!!!!!!!  Our defense was playing well.

5) If he win that game with Flutie as our QB we win the Superbowl.

6) I always disliked meddling owners and Ralph was the worse.

 

Kicking out of the end zone was far less common. Kickers have come very far in the last 20-30 years. 

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2 hours ago, BillsM@fia said:

It was legal (barely). Looking how the play unfolded, it certainly appeared to have been a forward pass.  

 

When Wycheck threw it to Mason, Mason was too far ahead.  Mason had to come back and retrieve the ball.  The optics of the play certainly give the illusion of a forward pass and in most instances, I think the refs would have thrown a flag...it would be too close to overturn.

 

Regardless, the Bills mistakes were compounding and it eventually caught up to them.  We should have started Flutie.  We chose to kick the go ahead field go with like 16 seconds and I believe it was only 2nd or 3rd down.  And as mentioned, there is no excuse for the special teams not covering the kick off properly.  I recently watched a video of the play and Jeff Fisher was literally moving his arm in a throwing motion to the special teams unit beforehand..

 

 

 

I think any play but the final of the game they likely throw a flag. That’s not saying I think it was illegal- honestly I’ve waffled- but I think the optics get a flag in the second quarter of a game in September. 

 

In january with the game ending play I think short of it being OBVIOUS the refs decided to let a team make a play there. And one team decided to make good on the opportunity while the other did decidedly the opposite. 

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I an an original Bills fan [was 11 in 1959 when they were founded]. 

 

My son and I were at the game in a box on the 20 towards the bills goal [was working in Nashville at the time]. 

 

Wychek released the ball was no farther than the 25 and Dyson caught the ball on the 26.  

 

Still:

 

Why did Wade kick the FG on first down with so much time left. Run a long count and a spike.

Why didn't Christie drill the kickoff as deep as he could. and cover.  The squib was a dumb idea.

KO coverage wasn't expecting a trick play.

Refs would have been lynched and thrown in the nearby river if they had reversed the TD. They would not have left the stadium alive if they reversed that call.

 

Edited by BearNorth

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6 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

Kicking out of the end zone was far less common. Kickers have come very far in the last 20-30 years. 

it was also harder to kick it out of the end zone back then... kickoffs started from the 25 didn’t they?

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4 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

it was also harder to kick it out of the end zone back then... kickoffs started from the 25 didn’t they?

It did move up 5 yards since then 

 

but I swear kickers have like 10 yards more range these days too

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42 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Never during the season, Hap.  Never during the season.

 

OH hoh!   Why did you think I had you in mind?  Didn't actually

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

That.

 

And additionally the benefit of the doubt should not be given on such a play...........kickoff coverage aren't supposed to have to defend forward passes.........if it's not CLEARLY a lateral it should be assumed a forward pass by officiating.

 

All that said..........you let a game come down to one score you are vulnerable to bad bounces or judgement calls..........so you better run a tight ship if you are a team that plays on the edge like that.    HC Wade Phillips and "attention to detail" were never synonymous.

 

One key difference we've seen between McDermott and Wade is that McD hasn't gone into denial when he's made mistakes.......Wade was obstinate about some pretty dumb things.......like not devoting practice time to special teams despite struggling during the season and then not being willing to admit he made a mistake firing DeHaven and hiring his bro pump-it-up Ronnie Jones.    Had to laugh when he wore a headset in Dallas when he got that job.  I guess knowing what plays your coordinators are calling is actually relevant to the position of HC.:lol:

 

You bring in a good peripheral point. 

 

Over the years I've watched Phillips coach around the league and felt "wow, we really screwed the pooch giving him the heave-ho that quickly".  And perhaps we did, but to your implied point - the Phillips I've watched around the league, is in fact not the same Wade Phillips we had coaching the Bills.  He did learn and adapt, in a way perhaps he would not have done had he stayed here.

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This is one of those plays where the Bills had a bad call against them, but it was their own fault that they lost.  First of all they could have let the clock run down to two or three seconds before the kick where they took the lead, so that there would not have been any time remaining for the kickoff.  Second the Bills players didn't cover their lanes AT ALL on the kickoff.  All the coverage men on the right side collapsed into the middle, leaving their side of the field open.  I've never gone back and checked but the Bills must have been doing this in previous games, for the Titans to have had any reason at all to put in this play.  To me, this means the ST coach allowed the players to do something that created a vulnerability.  Whether this was enough to get him fired is a judgement call.

 

The no-goal against Dallas was similar.  Yes, Brett Hull had his skate in the crease when he regained the puck and scored, and there was no rule allowing him to do that, so the goal should not have counted.  However, just before Hull scored, one of the Sabres skated past him and tried to poke check the puck away, instead of checking Hull and knocking him away from the front of the net.  Also, realistically, the Sabres were not going to win that game.  They were exhausted and hadn't mounted a serious offensive threat in a long time.  Dallas had these huge defensemen, so when the Sabres tired forwards skated into the Dallas end, the defense just knocked them down and took the puck away.  The Sabres best chance in that game was a Stu Barnes shot that hit the crossbar.  

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8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OH hoh!   Why did you think I had you in mind?  Didn't actually

 

 

:lol:

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10 minutes ago, Utah John said:

This is one of those plays where the Bills had a bad call against them, but it was their own fault that they lost.  First of all they could have let the clock run down to two or three seconds before the kick where they took the lead, so that there would not have been any time remaining for the kickoff.  Second the Bills players didn't cover their lanes AT ALL on the kickoff.  All the coverage men on the right side collapsed into the middle, leaving their side of the field open.  I've never gone back and checked but the Bills must have been doing this in previous games, for the Titans to have had any reason at all to put in this play.  To me, this means the ST coach allowed the players to do something that created a vulnerability.  Whether this was enough to get him fired is a judgement call.

 

The no-goal against Dallas was similar.  Yes, Brett Hull had his skate in the crease when he regained the puck and scored, and there was no rule allowing him to do that, so the goal should not have counted.  However, just before Hull scored, one of the Sabres skated past him and tried to poke check the puck away, instead of checking Hull and knocking him away from the front of the net.  Also, realistically, the Sabres were not going to win that game.  They were exhausted and hadn't mounted a serious offensive threat in a long time.  Dallas had these huge defensemen, so when the Sabres tired forwards skated into the Dallas end, the defense just knocked them down and took the puck away.  The Sabres best chance in that game was a Stu Barnes shot that hit the crossbar.  

The only time the clock would have mattered is if the time expired as part of the kick.  I don't believe that would have been true since the Bills got the ball back after this illegal TD.

 

Even if there were a few seconds left after the FG, the Titans could have run the same play and it would have been a valid play. 

 

On thee Bills ST, I think it is hindsight 20-20.  The Bills were caught left footed (Moving to the Left of the field) only because the ball went to thee left side only for the throw to come all the way from the middle of the hash marks to the side line.   Not everyone can make that throw.  When Dyson caught it,  he would have needed to beat only one guy.  What if the ball was thrown to the right side instead of the left.    

 

The Bills had shot themselves in the foot a week before the game started....they started Rob Johnson instead of Flutie who had won all those regular season games for the year.   The plan was for Rob to go aerial, but he could never do that against that tough Titans defense.

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I thought it was forward watching it live.  Didn’t even care about the return - I was thinking that the titans should run a lot and get nice and tired so they were gassed on the re-kick.  I couldn’t believe it when the play stood. 

28 minutes ago, Utah John said:

This is one of those plays where the Bills had a bad call against them, but it was their own fault that they lost.  First of all they could have let the clock run down to two or three seconds before the kick where they took the lead, so that there would not have been any time remaining for the kickoff.  Second the Bills players didn't cover their lanes AT ALL on the kickoff.  All the coverage men on the right side collapsed into the middle, leaving their side of the field open.  I've never gone back and checked but the Bills must have been doing this in previous games, for the Titans to have had any reason at all to put in this play.  To me, this means the ST coach allowed the players to do something that created a vulnerability.  Whether this was enough to get him fired is a judgement call.

 

The no-goal against Dallas was similar.  Yes, Brett Hull had his skate in the crease when he regained the puck and scored, and there was no rule allowing him to do that, so the goal should not have counted.  However, just before Hull scored, one of the Sabres skated past him and tried to poke check the puck away, instead of checking Hull and knocking him away from the front of the net.  Also, realistically, the Sabres were not going to win that game.  They were exhausted and hadn't mounted a serious offensive threat in a long time.  Dallas had these huge defensemen, so when the Sabres tired forwards skated into the Dallas end, the defense just knocked them down and took the puck away.  The Sabres best chance in that game was a Stu Barnes shot that hit the crossbar.  

Darryl Porter was the sinner on that coverage.  Didn’t stay in his lane.  And Ronnie Jones was a horrible ST coach.  Chris Mohr would run meetings to go over coverages bc Jones did t know what he was doing. 

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1 minute ago, ricojes said:

let go of it on the 25, caught it closer to the 26.

It's a game of inches......Cliche or Not

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