Bills defense is overrated.

[papazoid]

definitely a top 10 defense

 

considering what the offense does (2nd most giveaways) ......they are a Top 5 defense

 

not over rated

 

#1- yards allowed

#10 - takeaways

#20 - points allowed (thanks offense)

[mjt328]

They are still a good defense.  But probably not as good as they appeared earlier in the season.

With the offense finally putting up points, teams aren't playing as conservative against our defense.  They are opening things up and attacking a little bit more.  And we are getting exposed in several different areas.

 

-  Our linebackers (Milano and Edmunds) are often caught in the wrong gaps or getting swallowed up in the run game.  I known many people think we need to move Edmunds to the outside, but don't forget that he's only 20-years-old and has a very large frame.  Don't be surprised if the coaches get him to put some weight on in the offseason, to help with shedding blocks.  And hopefully the instincts improve with time. 

 

-  The pass rush is inconsistent.  I find this to be the case with 95% of teams around the league.  They get lots of pressure one week, but can't the next week.  Since Leslie Frasier is not the type of guy who likes dialing up blitzes, that means we probably need some more help on the D-Line.  Shaq Lawson, Trent Murphy, Harrison Phillips and Jordan Phillips are all good players and valuable to our rotation.  But none are great at getting QB pressure.  Kyle Williams was that guy for a long time, but he's not consistent anymore.  If we get a Top 3-5 pick, don't be surprised if we go DT.

 

-  Behind Tre'Davious White, our play at cornerback has ranged from mediocre to awful.  I like Taron Johnson in the slot, but we need another starting outside CB and some better depth.  We've tried multiple guys here, but nobody has been impressive.

 

 

 

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, tuckan said:

We have a post count?  

 

Daring to criticize the current Bills -- unless it's one of the "designated scapegoat" players or coaches -- makes you either a newbie or a troll around here as far as the numerous "true believers" are concerned.   After you've created a few more posts, you'll graduate to being a "troll" if you continue to look at the team without Bills-colored glasses.

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

The Bills were second lowest in yards allowed yesterday. Second only to the Bears. 

[SoTier]

 

9 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Bill's defense gave up 14

ST gave up 13

Our ST have wet themselves all year. Including today they've cost us 4 games.

 

When most of your starters aren't NFL caliber starters, chances are most of your ST team players shouldn't even be on an NFL roster.  Talent counts.

[ComradeKayAdams]

The defense is mediocre in sacks, interceptions, and third down percentage. They are downright awful in red zone defense. They are otherwise top 10 in all other meaningful metrics.

 

McDermott and Beane have made good progress with the defense from year 1 to year 2. But more work clearly needs to be done this offseason:

 

1. Find a capable #2 CB opposite White.

2. Find an annual double-digit sack DE opposite Hughes.

3. Find a replacement for Kyle Williams.

4. Find a replacement for Lorenzo Alexander.

 

So that's 4 starters needed. This draft is absolutely loaded with talent at DE and DT, and these guys have shown that they know how to draft CB's and LB's. There is also free agency to find replacements. 

 

The difficulty is in trying to find 4 starters on defense while simultaneously overhauling the offense. It can be done with $90 million in cap space and 10 draft picks. But it won't be easy.

 

 

[mjt328]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Edmunds problem is not nearly as much shedding blocks as it is instincts and finding the ball.

 

Every game this is an issue. Why is him turning 21 going to change this? Because he will be able to legally drink? 

 

The biggest reason young players improve in Years 1, 2, etc. is experience.  Virtually every NFL player (even the ones who play GREAT as rookies) talks about how difficult it is to process the difference from college to the pros.  It takes time for the game to slow-down. 

 

This is not a difficult concept. 

 

Out of all the things that confuse/baffle me about this message board... This may be the most puzzling.  I just can't understand how football fans who watch this sport ALL THE TIME, are determined to judge young players as busts as ROOKIES.  People were saying the same thing last year about Zay Jones.  They are saying the same thing about Josh Allen this year. 

 

Seriously.  Do people just sit on their couches at home, and after 13 games say "Well, I guess that Edmunds guy is never going to get it." 

Honestly, it's ridiculous.

 

 

[Big Turk]

Bills just took over the #1 defensive ranking again...

[ComradeKayAdams]

11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Your missing the point.

 

You can't teach instincts. You either have it or you don't. BADOL used the example of Preston Brown as a rookie if I recall correctly. The guy came in and showed the insticts the position requires instantly. 

 

The only argument against this thought for Edmunds seems to be "well, remember he's 20".  

 

Yes you can! One is not simply born to play 4-3 MLB at the pro level. What you perceive as "instincts" come from hard work and experience. Preston Brown is cited here as an example. That's an interesting one because Preston's father was a career football coach, so Preston had a different level of tutelage and LB experience than Tremaine had upon entering the NFL.

[row_33]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills were second lowest in yards allowed yesterday. Second only to the Bears. 

 

game ball for everyone

 

woo hoo hooooooooooooooooooo

[HeHateMe]

13 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

Some games they took over but today pass rush just didn't get home.

What pass rush

[MrEpsYtown]

52 minutes ago, MichaelAbdallah said:

The defense is mediocre in sacks, interceptions, and third down percentage. They are downright awful in red zone defense. They are otherwise top 10 in all other meaningful metrics.

 

McDermott and Beane have made good progress with the defense from year 1 to year 2. But more work clearly needs to be done this offseason:

 

1. Find a capable #2 CB opposite White.

2. Find an annual double-digit sack DE opposite Hughes.

3. Find a replacement for Kyle Williams.

4. Find a replacement for Lorenzo Alexander.

 

So that's 4 starters needed. This draft is absolutely loaded with talent at DE and DT, and these guys have shown that they know how to draft CB's and LB's. There is also free agency to find replacements. 

 

The difficulty is in trying to find 4 starters on defense while simultaneously overhauling the offense. It can be done with $90 million in cap space and 10 draft picks. But it won't be easy.

 

 

 

I definitely think a reciever, tight end, center, and right tackle come in free agency. I think the draft should, and will be mostly defensive players. 

 

13 minutes ago, HeHateMe said:

What pass rush

 

Kyle had a chance on the big touchdown through to Anderson and for some reason dove at Darnold's legs. If he just kept running, we would be talking about a Bills win today. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by MrEpsYtown

[mjt328]

35 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Your missing the point.

 

You can't teach instincts. You either have it or you don't. BADOL used the example of Preston Brown as a rookie if I recall correctly. The guy came in and showed the insticts the position requires instantly. 

 

The only argument against this thought for Edmunds seems to be "well, remember he's 20".  

 

Why can't you teach instincts? 

It's basically just reading a play, recognizing what is happening quickly and then reacting. 

 

There is absolutely no reason that with on-field experience, film study and proper coaching, that Tremaine Edmunds cannot improve in this area. 

 

It's like the people that say ACCURACY cannot be taught.  Well, except that accuracy usually comes down to mechanics and footwork - and there are literally hundreds of experts employed by college and NFL teams to help QBs improve in these areas.  And there are literally hundreds of NFL quarterbacks (including veterans) who say they have been able to improve their accuracy over the years.

 

[Luka]

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

They were definitely manhandled by the Jets OL.  Darnold was never under duress (except for that one play which he miraculously completed for a TD)...

 

Maybe true, but you've got to also realize that when they do bring pressure, it's usually with the other team in it's own end. With their drive starts they were playing a lot of base cover 2 to attempt to prevent a score. Coaching staff is too conservative once the opposing team is across the 50. Darnold also supposedly struggles against zone so it was just a part of the game plan.

[iinii]

5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Yet another cheesy noob thread..?

 

They aren’t overrated because no one here says they are. Their Rating is done by the League, based solely on yards against rush & pass. But you’d have to actually follow the NFL to know this.

Those are stats and stats don’t mean quite as much as actual wins, speaking of following the NFL. 

[T master]

14 hours ago, gordong said:

they sure are overrated....  

 

 

I would take the Bills D over a lot of others in the league like another poster said "they aren't elite" But they ain't bad & if they were given a bit better starting field position they would probably be a bit better too !! 

 

I think this draft will help on both sides of the ball given what Mcbean & company find in UDFA's Rome wasn't built in a day !! 

[Chicken Boo]

Nonsense.  I was told they were the #1 defense in the league.

[iinii]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills were second lowest in yards allowed yesterday. Second only to the Bears. 

The Bears played the Rams and we played the Jets. Stats are for Baseball. Wins and losses are the actual yardstick teams are measured by.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, MichaelAbdallah said:

 

Yes you can! One is not simply born to play 4-3 MLB at the pro level. What you perceive as "instincts" come from hard work and experience. Preston Brown is cited here as an example. That's an interesting one because Preston's father was a career football coach, so Preston had a different level of tutelage and LB experience than Tremaine had upon entering the NFL.

 

Instinct = innate = inborn/natural...........so instinct by definition you can't teach.

 

I agree with you that learned behavior is often confused with instinct..........but there is more to it than study and reps.........whether it be an ability,  even subconsciously,  to read more information/cues in a shorter amount of time or whatever it may be some athletes are more instinctive than others.

 

We see it all the time at the MLB position.........guys come in and play near their peak potential almost immediately..........whether that be a limited grinder like Preston Brown or a guy who seems to otherwise be something of an idiot like Kiko or a physical specimen like Urlacher who moved from college safety to rookie MLB in the NFL and put up one of his best seasons as a rookie.

 

There is reason for concern wrt Edmunds becoming the superstar MLB that his draft status warrants...........but I do think he has enough potential to be worth it somewhere else if it doesn't work out at MLB.

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Kyle had a chance on the big touchdown through to Anderson and for some reason dove at Darnold's legs. If he just kept running, we would be talking about a Bills win today. 

 

 

This play really stood out to me as critical as well...........I get that Darnold is elusive but there was no reason to dive there......contain him and let help come........there was no way he was bringing Darnold down by the shoestring at that point on the field.

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

Getting started at midfield 4 times didn't help. 

 

15 hours ago, Luka said:

Average drive position for the Jets was the 48 yard line. That's a tall order for any defense. Last week they lost the Phins game but this week I don't think they were terrible. Terrible special teams and a sputtering offense were more to blame.

 

 

This is true.  I mean a top Defense can't be expected to stop the 30th ranked offense when they start from midfield....

[ComradeKayAdams]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Instinct = innate = inborn/natural...........so instinct by definition you can't teach.

 

I agree with you that learned behavior is often confused with instinct..........but there is more to it than study and reps.........whether it be an ability,  even subconsciously,  to read more information/cues in a shorter amount of time or whatever it may be some athletes are more instinctive than others.

 

We see it all the time at the MLB position.........guys come in and play near their peak potential almost immediately..........whether that be a limited grinder like Preston Brown or a guy who seems to otherwise be something of an idiot like Kiko or a physical specimen like Urlacher who moved from college safety to rookie MLB in the NFL and put up one of his best seasons as a rookie.

 

There is reason for concern wrt Edmunds becoming the superstar MLB that his draft status warrants...........but I do think he has enough potential to be worth it somewhere else if it doesn't work out at MLB.

 

I suppose I just think the concept of pro MLB "instincts" are negligible and highly overrated. With a strong work ethic and good coaching, Edmunds will be fine developing into an elite MLB. A full off-season of adding bulk won't hurt either. And the varying football backgrounds between these so-called "instinctual" LB's and Edmunds do matter to me. He entered the league this summer as a very young and raw prospect. It should have been expected for Edmunds to struggle some in his rookie year and to not have a perfectly positive linear progression. I can generalize this frustration of mine to all sorts of life endeavors besides football. If you don't hit the ground running in something, a lot of people seem more than willing to write you off as "not a natural" and then steer you toward something else. This mindset seems to be typical of people who have never had the experience of working really hard and obsessively at something in their own private lives.

 

There's also the problem of where to put Edmunds if not at MLB. Milano plays the Will LB, and the Sam LB in a modern 4-3 defense is more of a part-time position. Both Edmunds and Milano need to be every-down LB's.

[Boatdrinks]

22 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

It's not a great defense.

 

Id say it's an overall solid defense that has a couple glaring issues such as a pass rush and getting off the field on 3rd down.

This is a good description. I’d still take the Ravens defense or the Bears if I needed to stop a high powered efficient offense. What would the Bills defense do vs the Rams ? How would they perform against the Saints ? I think the Bills defense could be better , but Frazier at times holds them back with his ultra conservative game plans. 

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, mjt328 said:

-  The pass rush is inconsistent.  I find this to be the case with 95% of teams around the league.  They get lots of pressure one week, but can't the next week.  Since Leslie Frasier is not the type of guy who likes dialing up blitzes, that means we probably need some more help on the D-Line.  Shaq Lawson, Trent Murphy, Harrison Phillips and Jordan Phillips are all good players and valuable to our rotation.  But none are great at getting QB pressure.  Kyle Williams was that guy for a long time, but he's not consistent anymore.  If we get a Top 3-5 pick, don't be surprised if we go DT.

 

Going to disagree on Frazier. It's not that he doesn't like dialing up blitzes, it's that he's working for McD who comes from the Jim Johnson school where pressure comes from the front 4.  That said, this board will collectively explode if Buffalo goes DL with the first pick.  A top penetrating DT isn't getting this team closer to the playoffs with the offensive issues they have. 

 

3 hours ago, SoTier said:

When most of your starters aren't NFL caliber starters, chances are most of your ST team players shouldn't even be on an NFL roster.  Talent counts.

 

Talent does count and after two off-seasons of rebuilding they have major talent issues all over the field.  That happened largely because it is practically impossible to tear down and simultaneously rebuild a roster.   

 

[Freddie's Dead]

Gonna blame the D.  Riiiiiight....

 

[krf139]

The most concerning thing about the defense is that when they've needed to come up big to close out a game, they've been MIA:

 

- Texans final drive, aided by Gaines Pass Interference 

- Dolphins game, albeit with a BS penalty on Milano 

- Jets game with Tre White getting burned (albeit a great pass)  

 

If the defense does their jobs in these three games, we are sitting in a very different place right now.  Obviously there are huge deficiencies on offense, but a unit that is supposed to be so good closes these games out.  

 

[dave mcbride]

16 minutes ago, krf139 said:

The most concerning thing about the defense is that when they've needed to come up big to close out a game, they've been MIA:

 

- Texans final drive, aided by Gaines Pass Interference 

- Dolphins game, albeit with a BS penalty on Milano 

- Jets game with Tre White getting burned (albeit a great pass)  

 

If the defense does their jobs in these three games, we are sitting in a very different place right now.  Obviously there are huge deficiencies on offense, but a unit that is supposed to be so good closes these games out.  

 

The penalty on Milano was absolutely the correct call. You can't arm bar a receiver and then knock him around without looking back for the ball -- which is exactly what Milano did.

[Bing Bong]

Edmunds is overrated (right now. I'll accept his potential when it materializes). Some of these guys are the real deal though. Outside of Milano we have a lot of work to do on the front 7.. but Hyde, Poyer, and White are still my favorite defenders.

 

But I'm not pinning yesterday's loss on the defense. If we didn't give them a short field all game I seriously doubt the Jets offense would have moved itself. Outside of that last drive.. what else can you ask a defense to do?? Allowed just one full field TD drive. The rest was garbage play from ST to let them get there. And our strength at secondary isn't going to be utilized when they have multiple short field opportunites to run it in.

Edited December 10, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[klos63]

our defense is good, not great. None of our linebackers are elite, though Edmunds may get there. Need improvement on getting a consistent pass rush. More depth is needed, but that's the case with every team.

They are the least of our problems right now. Lot of holes to fill , not sure they can all be filled adequately in one off season.

[Bing Bong]

1 minute ago, klos63 said:

our defense is good, not great. None of our linebackers are elite, though Edmunds may get there. Need improvement on getting a consistent pass rush. More depth is needed, but that's the case with every team.

They are the least of our problems right now. Lot of holes to fill , not sure they can all be filled adequately in one off season.

As good as LorSax is.. he CANNOT be our best front 7 player if we want to dominate the trenches

 

I'd give our best front 7 to Milano but he's more of a ballhawk than a trench guy.

[Jerome007]

Top 10 defense, but barely cracking the Top 10. Doesn't mean they suck! But nope, they are not the fearsome stoppers that make opposing teams tremble.

 

And as mentioned by many, pass rush was non existent yesterday. Which begs the question: why didn't McD and Frazier adjust and blitzed more?

[Nihilarian]

What's really sad is if McD stays as HC the team will probably go all out for defensive players in the 2019 draft.

 

I don't see this regime ever building an elite offense and without that elite run game the defense will never be great as they will always be on the field. 

[Houston's #1 Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, krf139 said:

The most concerning thing about the defense is that when they've needed to come up big to close out a game, they've been MIA:

 

- Texans final drive, aided by Gaines Pass Interference 

- Dolphins game, albeit with a BS penalty on Milano 

- Jets game with Tre White getting burned (albeit a great pass)  

 

If the defense does their jobs in these three games, we are sitting in a very different place right now.  Obviously there are huge deficiencies on offense, but a unit that is supposed to be so good closes these games out.  

 

While I understand were you're coming from, I don't agree. The biggest problem is the defense, by the end of the game, is they are damn tired! The offense has been put SO much pressure on them by not sustaining drives. These guys need time to recover and the offense has been consistently had multiple three-and-outs. That wears down a defense.

[White Linen]

16 hours ago, tuckan said:

This is not personal.  It’s srictly business.  Please elucidate your disagreement with what was posted.  Seems you are becoming “emotionally charged.”  Are they a clutch defense in the 4th quarter?  Do they create turnovers?  Are they a great red zone defense?  Feel free to express what you disagree with?

 

How about this post from LABILLBACKER?

 

 

"Bill's defense gave up 14

ST gave up 13

Our ST have wet themselves all year. Including today they've cost us 4 games."

 

[Billever76]

17 hours ago, tuckan said:

Statistically superior but with three major flaws:

 

1.  Not dependable in the clutch.

2.  Do not create turnovers.

3.  Terrible in the red zone.

 

Bonus number 4,  lose gap integrity in run defense far too often at the most inopportune time.   Had no faith that they could close the game out today.  They were completely blown off the ball on 4th and goal.  Had an opportunity to stuff that play for no gain in my opinion.  Tremaine Edmunds late to the party.....

At least someone gets it!...Frazier isn't very good tbh...his cover 2 bend but don't break is outdated and it's day has come and gone..we have some elite defensive players on defense and they have been decent inspite of Frazier...Viking fans were in heaven knowing he was gone..Frazier is afraid to commit more than 4 to the pass rush even when we are getting no pressure.. yesterday is the microcosm of his philosophy..rush 4 drop everyone back into zones and hope the pressure gets home if not QB has plenty of time to find his man..we should have been blitzing the hell out of a rookie QB whom was just back from injury playing in our house!!!!...I want Frazier ran out of BUFFALO 

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

Going to disagree on Frazier. It's not that he doesn't like dialing up blitzes, it's that he's working for McD who comes from the Jim Johnson school where pressure comes from the front 4.  That said, this board will collectively explode if Buffalo goes DL with the first pick.  A top penetrating DT isn't getting this team closer to the playoffs with the offensive issues they have. 

 

 

Talent does count and after two off-seasons of rebuilding they have major talent issues all over the field.  That happened largely because it is practically impossible to tear down and simultaneously rebuild a roster.   

 

Well you haven't done your homework on Frazier..he runs a safer cover 2 than his predecessor lovie Smith..Frazier is one of the least blitzing DC in the league..he has zero balls and is constantly afraid of the big play...he is trash and always has been...go ask Viking fans what they thought about Frazier..they were in heaven when he was let go

[ctk232]

17 hours ago, Luka said:

Average drive position for the Jets was the 48 yard line. That's a tall order for any defense. Last week they lost the Phins game but this week I don't think they were terrible. Terrible special teams and a sputtering offense were more to blame.

Agreed, and while I think our defense is good and certainly the strong point of this team, there's something to be said for our "red zone defense." Everyone is eager to brag about our 2nd ranked defense, but often neglect the fact that it's 27th in the red zone, and still has plenty to improve on (i.e. pass rush, linebackers hitting gaps/timing to stop the run, secondary inconsistencies in coverage, zone integrity, etc.).

 

Our ST certainly gave them every extra rung up on the ladder yesterday, but the defense couldn't hold in the red zone or in key situations when it needed to. The reality of the situation is all three aspects of the team lost the game yesterday, Special Teams just carried the flag.

[Trogdor]

4 hours ago, MichaelAbdallah said:

 

Yes you can! One is not simply born to play 4-3 MLB at the pro level. What you perceive as "instincts" come from hard work and experience. Preston Brown is cited here as an example. That's an interesting one because Preston's father was a career football coach, so Preston had a different level of tutelage and LB experience than Tremaine had upon entering the NFL.

You realize that his dad was a Pro Bowl player right? Many of his issues right now are the same ones from college. I really like him, but his natural position is definitely outside. 

[klos63]

53 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

As good as LorSax is.. he CANNOT be our best front 7 player if we want to dominate the trenches

 

I'd give our best front 7 to Milano but he's more of a ballhawk than a trench guy.

Both players fill a role on the defense, but we need upgrades with them. Milano may develop more, but I think he's a guy that makes big plays, but lacks consistent effectiveness.

[CountDorkula]

I believe Sam Darnold was 9-13 for 105 YDS and a TD in the 4th quarter. 

 

The last two Jets Drives

11 plays 85 yards

9 plays 61 yards

 

 

When push came to shove the Bills defense folded.

[mjt328]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

How long do you wait for him to stop making these mistakes? 

 

He will obviously get the rest of this year, but at what point next year if he is still making those mistakes and costing the team do you stick with it? 

 

Hes getting experience this year, and minimal progress has been seen. He is making the same mistakes he was making in week 1. It's about to be week 15.

 

Most players say the biggest jump is between Year 1 and Year 2.

However, some players (Shaq Lawson for example) are late bloomers and take a little bit longer.

 

I would say that with MOST players, you can tell what kind of NFL player they will be by the middle of Year 3.

 

Also, I would strongly contest that Tremaine Edmunds has made "minimal progress" since the season began.  Back in the Baltimore and San Diego games, he was getting absolutely targeted/picked on - and was a total liability in coverage.  That isn't happening any more.  Yes, he's making mistakes in gap assignments and doesn't always shed downfield blocks on running plays.  But that happens to every Pro-Bowl linebacker in the league.  Overall, he's been a solid player as a rookie, with room to grow into something better.

 

 

[LSHMEAB]

2 hours ago, Houston's #1 Bills Fan said:

While I understand were you're coming from, I don't agree. The biggest problem is the defense, by the end of the game, is they are damn tired! The offense has been put SO much pressure on them by not sustaining drives. These guys need time to recover and the offense has been consistently had multiple three-and-outs. That wears down a defense.

That's really not true.

 

Our time of possession is roughly league average.

 

The defense is good, not great. They need to add an edge rusher to approach elite status.