Priority: Develop Allen or Win Ugly?

[Berky1010]

There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB?

 

 

[DuckyBoys]

this is why I said yesterdays game was unsatisfying and got crushed for it  #1 priority to me for this year is developing Allen  Not going to happen if they try and hide him with this type of game plan week in week out.

[Bangarang]

The priority should be to develop Allen. Winning ugly will likely come with it. The problem is that how can you develop a QB when you give him very little to work with?

[RussellDopeland]

[bobobonators]

We need an offensive mind on this team. We havent had a decent offensive coach since Gailey. We are completely devoid of coaching and player talent on the offensive side. Its embarrassing.

[teef]

i'm sure it's been mentioned, but i assumed part of this play yesterday was the staff trying to slow things down for allen and protect him.  they relied on the run to the point where it was painful, but he's certainly not to the point where i'd want the staff to put the game on allen's back.  we knew if it was going to work out for josh, it was going to take a while.  the slower they take it this year for him the better.  i suppose i don't see how it has to be one or the other.  

23 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

The priority should be to develop Allen. Winning ugly will likely come with it. The problem is that how can you develop a QB when you give him very little to work with?

this was my point too.  wins will happen, but i'm sure more blow out stinkers are going to happen as well.  welcome to this year.

Edited October 8, 2018 by teef

[Hebert19]

Both. 

 

We won ugly and he learned he doesn't need to look downfield every play.  

 

One doesn't mean the other isnt happening. 

[Mr. WEO]

Is this a serious question? 

[Rebel101]

But they have to give him this type of game plan. He doesn’t have a full command of the offense and cannot run the field properly. So they have to bring him along slowly and teach him things little by little. They tried to give him a heavier workload last week against the Packers and he couldn’t handle it. Someone can’t learn everything at once it needs to be taught step by step. That’s like giving a 2nd grader calculus before they even know how to multiply it would never work. He needs to learn piece by piece step by step and hopefully things open up and become clearly for him. It is unrealistic to think Allen they way he was coming out of college would come in and be able to grasp an entire NFL offense and immediately learn how to read the field and pick apart a defense. They have it give him more and more each week and hope he figures it out. They tried to overload him against the Packers it didn’t work out.

[MAJBobby]

The Priority should be Development of Josh Allen. If that isnt your No1 priority then You really need to re-evaluate. 

 

McD and Company have captial breaking the drought. That capital needs to be used to make sure this entire season is about developing Allen. 

 

Then again that should have been it from Jump and well we see how that went with some bogus competition 

[thurst44]

10 minutes ago, Berky1010 said:

There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB?

 

 

If he's not trying to win, how's he really developing? As with last year, it's a rebuilding year where we still try to win. It looks likely we have a very strong defense, and one that plays better in the second half (in no game have they given up more than 7 in second half). It would be silly to not try to win.

[Jasovon]

Pretty sure we're going for both. Asking Allen to be Aaron Rodgers from day 1 isn't going to develop him.

[buffaloboyinATL]

10 minutes ago, Berky1010 said:

There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB?

 

 

I don't think anyone's goal is to win 8 games ugly.  I believe all of this is part of the plan to develop Allen. They had to scale back the offense to get him comfortable, but hopefully things will start to slow down for him soon and they can expand the playbook as he develops.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Rebel101 said:

But they have to give him this type of game plan. He doesn’t have a full command of the offense and cannot run the field properly. So they have to bring him along slowly and teach him things little by little. They tried to give him a heavier workload last week against the Packers and he couldn’t handle it. Someone can’t learn everything at once it needs to be taught step by step. That’s like giving a 2nd grader calculus before they even know how to multiply it would never work. He needs to learn piece by piece step by step and hopefully things open up and become clearly for him. It is unrealistic to think Allen they way he was coming out of college would come in and be able to grasp an entire NFL offense and immediately learn how to read the field and pick apart a defense. They have it give him more and more each week and hope he figures it out. They tried to overload him against the Packers it didn’t work out.

If ONLY there was this thing called OTAs and Training Camp to aid in that. Oooo wait nevermind that was used as some Farce to hand Peterman the start

[billspro]

4 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

Both. 

 

We won ugly and he learned he doesn't need to look downfield every play.  

 

One doesn't mean the other isnt happening. 

 

I agree with this. Allen learned a lot yesterday. Winning is the best way to learn.

[RochesterRob]

6 minutes ago, teef said:

i'm sure it's been mentioned, but i assumed part of this play yesterday was the staff trying to slow things down for allen and protect.  they relied on the run to the point where it was painful, but he's certainly not to the point where i'd want the staff to put the game on allens back.  we knew if it was going to work out for josh, it was going to take a while.  the slower they take it this year for him the better.  i suppose i don't see how it has to be one or the other.  

this was my point too.  wins will happen, but i'm sure more blow out stinkers are going to happen as well.  welcome to this year.

  With a stout defense such as we are seeing as of late the two do not have to be mutually exclusive.  Do people think that fielding a poor defense will help?  Do people even think before they post?   

[SCBills]

Josh Allen should’ve been 11/19 for 105 yds, 20 yds rushing, 1 TD and 0 Int’s yesterday if not for Andre Holmes shenanigans. 

 

If we can win games leaning on Shady/Ivory and the Defense, with Josh putting up stat lines like that, I’m fine with it.  

 

I dont see a downside to it either.  

[Like A Mofo]

Priority as a coach is to win. ALWAYS. The guys in that locker room who are giving it everything want that. Can't talk tank when the Bills are 2-3.

 

Allen's development is always most important. Win or lose. It will take time.

 

Now, in Beane's case in a private moment? Maybe he would prefer a higher pick and developing Allen. But in no way shape or form does that message get conveyed to McDermott and to the team.

 

 

[dpberr]

You can do both.  It's not an either/or proposition.  

[Rebel101]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

If ONLY there was this thing called OTAs and Training Camp to aid in that. Oooo wait nevermind that was used as some Farce to hand Peterman the start

Yeah but they can only give him so much I agree they should have gave him a lot more with the 1s. But just because he wasn’t running with the 1s doesn’t mean he wasn’t learning the same offense. Supposedly Daboll has an specific offense created for Allen so it didn’t really matter what group he ran with the offense was tailored for him which I believe is a big reason why they kept foster and McCloud as well because if it is true that Allen had his own offense those 2 ran it the most with him and he had more chemistry with them naturally because they played together the most. We don’t know how well Allen is handling his information and how fast or how well he is processing and able to translate that knowledge onto the field so they can only move along as fast as Allen will allow them too. And obviously they thought maybe he was ready for more leading up to the Packers game until he showed he wasn’t. But all in good time

[nedboy7]

The OP is void of logic.  Please stop answering the “question”.  

[oldmanfan]

24 minutes ago, Berky1010 said:

There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB?

 

 

The premise of your question is flawed.  There is no reason you can't do both.  He developed yesterday, despite all the hogwash saying he didn't.  He was more decisive with reads, threw the ball away when he needed to.  Things like that show development.

[Berky1010]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

The premise of your question is flawed.  There is no reason you can't do both.  He developed yesterday, despite all the hogwash saying he didn't.  He was more decisive with reads, threw the ball away when he needed to.  Things like that show development.

 

So in that case...which would you "prefer"? Win or see Allen develop?

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Berky1010 said:

 

So in that case...which would you "prefer"? Win or see Allen develop?

I prefer both.  As I said, there is no reason you can't do both.

 

You are asking a question to fit your perceived bias.

[MAJBobby]

6 minutes ago, Rebel101 said:

Yeah but they can only give him so much I agree they should have gave him a lot more with the 1s. But just because he wasn’t running with the 1s doesn’t mean he wasn’t learning the same offense. Supposedly Daboll has an specific offense created for Allen so it didn’t really matter what group he ran with the offense was tailored for him which I believe is a big reason why they kept foster and McCloud as well because if it is true that Allen had his own offense those 2 ran it the most with him and he had more chemistry with them naturally because they played together the most. We don’t know how well Allen is handling his information and how fast or how well he is processing and able to translate that knowledge onto the field so they can only move along as fast as Allen will allow them too. And obviously they thought maybe he was ready for more leading up to the Packers game until he showed he wasn’t. But all in good time

 

Ok so a Specific Offense tailored for Allen?  Dont you think then kind of vital having the 1s learn that specific offense. 

 

They HAD to know Allen was going to start sooner than later with Peterman. If not that is a problem. Just like it would be a problem installing two specific offenses 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I personally think the goal is always to win.  That strategy we just used to beat Tenn, is likely to only beat a team like them.  Houston we could see something largely similar since its also a team with a young QB, who struggles to run the ball.  Once you start running into teams like NE, you have to attack them - because you're unlikely to limit them to under 20 points (yes it can happen, but their success rate is what 90%).  

 

I would expect to run the ball against Houston, they have a really good defense and the goal will be to eek out a win again.

[DuckyBoys]

True he did throw the ball away instead of turning from the pressure and eating sacks.  Its frustrating to see him out there with this group of receivers

[GreggTX]

Who says we'll win anything with a journyman at QB?

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

24 minutes ago, Berky1010 said:

There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB?

 

 

With our WR/TE/O-Line talent I think this team has no choice but to win ugly. The good thing is I think we can win ugly and still develop Allen. I feel like this team has the makings of a Seahawks situation where the defense could carry this team as long as the offense doesn't turn the ball over and puts up average numbers. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Ok so a Specific Offense tailored for Allen?  Dont you think then kind of vital having the 1s learn that specific offense. 

 

They HAD to know Allen was going to start sooner than later with Peterman. If not that is a problem. Just like it would be a problem installing two specific offenses 

 

I think taking out the RPOs, and simplifying things helped a bit.  The designed roll-outs helped limit the sacks and pass rush.

 

He's still really struggling to throw accurately on the run though.  

[Ramza86]

Honestly with what little Allen has...this year looks like its only going to help him gain experience with game situations so he will be much more calm next season.

 

He needs a line and weapons. I think its ok to have him throw 15 times a game this year and just focus on him learning live action. 

 

I dont care about this season. I just want Allen to learn the game and come out healthy by the end of it. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

If you have a good defense and good ground game you have at least a solid chance of winning the game. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, Berky1010 said:

There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB?

 

I don't think it's an either-or choice at all.   It's been justly said that a rookie QB best friend is a great run game, closely followed by an effective OL.

 

In order to be developed, Allen needs to make good decisions and not press.  To do that, he needs to know the team can run the ball and win running the ball.  I think yesterday was all about taking the game off Allen's shoulders and establishing that we can win the game in the trenches.  The next step would be to continue to establish that we can run the ball and move the chains that way, while slowly building up the complexity of the passing game for Allen.

 

If a young QB believes winning the game is all on his shoulders, and if the team is pass-heavy behind a ticky-tack OL, that young QB will inevitably press and make bad passing decisions.  Allen needs to know that if he throws the ball away because he's under pressure or he doesn't understand what he sees, the rest of the team's got his back.

[dlonce]

35 minutes ago, Berky1010 said:

There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB?

 

 

 

Why does it have to be mutually exclusive?

The whole idea is to win.

You can’t win and develop at the same time?  That’s just not true.

[Mrbojanglezs]

Every game Allen plays he learns more about situational football and defensive formations/blitzes regardless of how many times he throws the ball.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

he can develop while winning and losing. whether the win is ugly, it's a win win as he still can learn and develop from it just the same as an ugly or even close loss.

 

all is in his favor to remain on the field, take his lumps and continue to develop.

 

although it seems with a very poor cast around (why is KB still on this team?) him his development has not looked as good as some the other rookies who some continue to drool over but he seems to have the potential and I expect next season to be much better for him and the team as a whole. 

[RochesterRob]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think it's an either-or choice at all.   It's been justly said that a rookie QB best friend is a great run game, closely followed by an effective OL.

 

In order to be developed, Allen needs to make good decisions and not press.  To do that, he needs to know the team can run the ball and win running the ball.  I think yesterday was all about taking the game off Allen's shoulders and establishing that we can win the game in the trenches.  The next step would be to continue to establish that we can run the ball and move the chains that way, while slowly building up the complexity of the passing game for Allen.

 

If a young QB believes winning the game is all on his shoulders, and if the team is pass-heavy behind a ticky-tack OL, that young QB will inevitably press and make bad passing decisions.  Allen needs to know that if he throws the ball away because he's under pressure or he doesn't understand what he sees, the rest of the team's got his back.

  I think that Daboll is implementing more run plays because the coaches are probably seeing more OL cohesion during practices.  I am not saying that the OL does not need upgrading but rather each OL player is understanding what his OL teammate's reaction/ direction is on a given play.

[nucci]

You should always try and win every game you play.

[BmarvB]

Even if it's ugly, a win is a win. We can get away with winning ugly and developing Allen at the same time.

[Big Turk]

I don't think they need to be mutually exclusive.  Exactly what is Allen "learning" when he is dropping back 50 times and getting blitzed into submission with an OLine that can't pick it up and WR's that can't get open?