Shaq Lawson on roster bubble

[Just Joshin']

16 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I would actually be surprised if he was straight up released with nothing in return. He’s cheap depth if nothing else. But not surprised at all if he was moved out for a draft pick.

Seems simple - not sure why some want to cut him outright.

[Bring it]

On 6/20/2018 at 10:48 AM, HappyDays said:

When's the last time we had a GM who came right out and said this player isn't performing as well as we expect and he needs to do better? It's so refreshing.

It’s nice to see for sure! Lawson better not take any plays off or he is toast.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

19 minutes ago, BillsGuru4 said:

I was a fan of the pick, I’m very sad it’s not working out and am willing to give another year to make sure. It’s nice that we don’t need to depend on him

Then delegate him shovelling snow at NEF before home games.  Have to get something useful / dependable out of him.

 

(Do that, and irony says he reinjures the shoulder shovelling the snow.)

Edited July 28, 2018 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[Aussie Joe]

47 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

It also goes to show that your pick could be rated as an A by all the prognosticators and be a bust. I am not willing to write Shaq of just because 2-3 days into training camp he isn't dominating, in 10 games last season Shaq had 4 sacks that is roughly 6.5 if he played the entire 16 games, which for a player in his second year coming off of an injury isn't that bad. Toss in the fact that he graded out decently against the run and I think you can have some hope for him. 

 

I think this idea of Shaq being toast at the moment is premature, certainly a make or break camp/pre-season but nothing so far to me indicates he is a goner just yet too early to tell in my opinion. 

 

I completely agree with your first point. It does reinforce that the Draft is a crap shoot a lot of the time..

 

I also want them to give him this year to turn it around as I don’t think they will get much for him in a trade ( a conditional 6th maybe ?) and I would rather they just persevere and hope he comes good..Not confident at this stage though of him being here in 2019..

Edited July 28, 2018 by Aussie Joe

[billsfan89]

7 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

 

I completely agree with your first point. It does reinforce that the Draft is a crap shoot a lot of the time..

 

I also want them to give him this year to turn it around as I don’t think they will get much for him in a trade ( a conditional 6th maybe ?) and I would rather they just persevere and hope he comes good..Not confident at this stage though of him being here in 2019..

 

I think with Shaq it also depends who else is behind him and how well are they performing? If Shaq isn't fetching anything significant out on the trade market then why not keep him if no one else behind him is lighting it up. However, if you really like a player behind him why not just get what you can or cut Shaq? Still way too early to tell on him. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by billsfan89

[MiltonWaddams]

24 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I think with Shaq it also depends who else is behind him and how well are they performing? If Shaq isn't fetching anything significant out on the trade market then why not keep him if no one else behind him is lighting it up. However, if you really like a player behind him why not just get what you can or cut Shaq? Still way too early to tell on him. 

I think that by season 3, you have a good idea on what a player is or is not capable of. The reports (multiple) out of TC have him getting manhandled by second rate o-linemen. I would not think that a positive thing in a prove-it year. I don't know if Fede or Owa offer much more than he does, but in year 3, it's really a case of if they offer any more it's still more. I wish he was more than he is....I just don't think he is. 

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, Bring it said:

It’s nice to see for sure! Lawson better not take any plays off or he is toast.

McD called him out a bit today, too. Not just previous regime guys -  he also called out his own guy, Zay, yesterday. 

[billsredneck1]

I hope he stays one more year rotating with Trent and possibly kicking him inside if need be. I'd hate to see him given away and then the injury bug hits. He is still on a rookie contract. I wouldn't get stupid here.

[Uncle Joe]

At this juncture I think he is a tweener. Somewhere between a DE and LB. IIRC sly Rex originally thought he could make him an OLB. After Rex he moved back to DE. Apparently he's not big/strong enough for DE or fast enough for LB. I was hoping the weight loss might give him an edge so to speak. Hopefully he can a least be decent depth this year.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Uncle Joe

[Estelle Getty]

Wasn't he pretty damn good against the run last year and had a couple of sacks?  Why does everyone want to get rid of him so bad?

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

McD called him out a bit today, too. Not just previous regime guys -  he also called out his own guy, Zay, yesterday. 

 

Yep. The way they talked about Zay yesterday (I know this is a Shaq thread) I don't think they are seeing him as any more than one of the guys in a competition for a spot. KB and JK may be pencilled in on the roster but Zay is not. 

[Augie]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. The way they talked about Zay yesterday (I know this is a Shaq thread) I don't think they are seeing him as any more than one of the guys in a competition for a spot. KB and JK may be pencilled in on the roster but Zay is not. 

 

No free rides, best man wins. I like it! 

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. The way they talked about Zay yesterday (I know this is a Shaq thread) I don't think they are seeing him as any more than one of the guys in a competition for a spot. KB and JK may be pencilled in on the roster but Zay is not. 

Sadly, I agree. Rooting for the kid to turn a corner, but he has an uphill battle despite when and where he was drafted.

Edited July 28, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[MAJBobby]

If they can deal him for a Real off the ball SLB I would be all for it. And get Lorax back to ST and spot Pass Rush only. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by MAJBobby

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

See ya Shaq, hope you can get us a third.

 

 

maybe some 34 team would like him .

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Buffalo Barbarian

[billsfan89]

7 hours ago, MiltonWaddams said:

I think that by season 3, you have a good idea on what a player is or is not capable of. The reports (multiple) out of TC have him getting manhandled by second rate o-linemen. I would not think that a positive thing in a prove-it year. I don't know if Fede or Owa offer much more than he does, but in year 3, it's really a case of if they offer any more it's still more. I wish he was more than he is....I just don't think he is. 

 

We have had 2 days of practice in pads, even if a guy isn't looking all that good there is plenty more camp and pre-season left to go. Shaq looked Ok in year 2 in real action against real pros. I think it is possible he plays better as camp progresses. Some players take some time to settle into camp. Then again it is possible Shaq just can't hack it. My overall point was that the sample size is just too small. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by billsfan89

[John from Riverside]

54 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

We have had 2 days of practice in pads, even if a guy isn't looking all that good there is plenty more camp and pre-season left to go. Shaq looked Ok in year 2 in real action against real pros. I think it is possible he plays better as camp progresses. Some players take some time to settle into camp. Then again it is possible Shaq just can't hack it. My overall point was that the sample size is just too small. 

I dont know

At what point does a high first round pick DE actually show that he can play better then undrafted free agents?

 

I root for him.....but I just have this bad feeling now that they have a guy in front of him in the line up in Murphy

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Joe Miner said:

 

How's Paxton Lynch doing?  That was Badols guy

 

Nailed it again

 

?

 

Jack was bpa by a lot when the Bills took Lawson.........and as it turns out the knee hasn't prevented him from being an impact player on a rising power in the AFC.

 

I never said Lynch was any franchise lock or even a remotely sure bet,  it wasn't a deep year for QB prospects.......but I have a simple philosophy:

 

If you simply always take the best QB available at that point in round 1 you will eventually win the draft process.

 

HOF lock QB's like Brees, Rodgers and a SB MVP like Flacco and a dozen mehs and duds.........or who the Bills actually got in those droughty drafts?    

 

The answer is pretty simple.    QB is so exponentially more valuable than any other position that you take the QB.

 

The Bills even hit on picks like Gilmore,  Dareus and Watkins and still all they have to show for those 17 years of regular top half of the draft first round picks are Shaq and Tre White.

 

That's almost unbelievable.   Simply atrocious.

 

Meanwhile the aforementioned Drew Brees(drafted after year 1 of the Bills drought) and Aaron Rodgers were carrying otherwise dubiously managed organizations like Nola and GB to SB victories and general performance well above the level of their rosters.

 

The Bills.......they couldn't have done any worse if they put up Kipers top 30 available at that point every year and had Jeff Littman make the pick.

 

Before McD or even Saban were talking about "the process" I was selling the idea on TSW that the draft is "a process" and not just an annual event.

 

If you have a sound philosophy and stick by it you will come out ahead in the long run.    If you treat the draft like an annual hole-patching event.....as the Bills have for most of their existence......you will come out behind in the long run.   

[Joe Miner]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

?

 

Jack was bpa by a lot when the Bills took Lawson.........and as it turns out the knee hasn't prevented him from being an impact player on a rising power in the AFC.

 

I never said Lynch was any franchise lock or even a remotely sure bet,  it wasn't a deep year for QB prospects.......but I have a simple philosophy:

 

If you simply always take the best QB available at that point in round 1 you will eventually win the draft process.

 

HOF lock QB's like Brees, Rodgers and a SB MVP like Flacco and a dozen mehs and duds.........or who the Bills actually got in those droughty drafts?    

 

The answer is pretty simple.    QB is so exponentially more valuable than any other position that you take the QB.

 

The Bills even hit on picks like Gilmore,  Dareus and Watkins and still all they have to show for those 17 years of regular top half of the draft first round picks are Shaq and Tre White.

 

That's almost unbelievable.   Simply atrocious.

 

Meanwhile the aforementioned Drew Brees(drafted after year 1 of the Bills drought) and Aaron Rodgers were carrying otherwise dubiously managed organizations like Nola and GB to SB victories and general performance well above the level of their rosters.

 

The Bills.......they couldn't have done any worse if they put up Kipers top 30 available at that point every year and had Jeff Littman make the pick.

 

Before McD or even Saban were talking about "the process" I was selling the idea on TSW that the draft is "a process" and not just an annual event.

 

If you have a sound philosophy and stick by it you will come out ahead in the long run.    If you treat the draft like an annual hole-patching event.....as the Bills have for most of their existence......you will come out behind in the long run.   

 

 

Some people can just admit they were wrong.  

 

Narcissist.

[billsfan89]

26 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I dont know

At what point does a high first round pick DE actually show that he can play better then undrafted free agents?

 

I root for him.....but I just have this bad feeling now that they have a guy in front of him in the line up in Murphy

 

It's not looking good, but there is still plenty of time for him to turn it around. Shaq looked like a legit NFL level player last year, so I certainly think he has a shot at turning things around. I think we get so knee jerk with day to day reports that we don't really allow for things to play out the way they should. 

[Coach Tuesday]

7 hours ago, Joe Miner said:

 

 

Some people can just admit they were wrong.  

 

Narcissist.

 

He wasnt wrong.  If Whaley had taken Lynch and showed a commitment generally to finding a franchise QB, he’d probably still be here.  You can justify a failed QB pick to your bosses.  What was the point of the Lawson pick?  How do you justify that pick when you still don’t have a QB?  Hell, the linked thread mentions that the Cowboys tried to trade for the Bills’ pick so they could take Lynch but Whaley said no - so the Cowboys lucked out on Prescott instead (because they were focused on drafting a QB).  Whaley could’ve traded the pick and taken Jack (as many of us here were begging him to do) or just taken Jack there... but staying put and taking Lawson was inexcusable given the position and the opportunity cost and lo and behold, that was the last draft Doug Whaley ran on his own and he is no longer an NFL GM.  When you factor in the trade that was passed on - the Bills essentially took Lawson over an extra 2nd and 3rd and next year’s 1st or whatever it was - and the guy was injured and isn’t even a pass rusher when healthy.

 

This isn’t hindsight, it’s foresight - look at the draft day thread, some of us were saying these things at the time!

Edited July 29, 2018 by Coach Tuesday

[thenorthremembers]

He was a bad pick from the word jump.  He was never a tweener DE/OLB, he was always too big and slow for that.  If anything he was a DE/DT.  

 

I never thought he was a pass rush guy even at Clemson.  He used his size to dominate at times but he didn't jump out with nice pass rush moves.  

 

They drafted him because Rex was close to him, that should have been shot down. Not his fault he was drafted where he was.

Edited July 29, 2018 by thenorthremembers

[CommonCents]

52 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

He was a bad pick from the word jump.  He was never a tweener DE/OLB, he was always too big and slow for that.  If anything he was a DE/DT.  

 

I never thought he was a pass rush guy even at Clemson.  He used his size to dominate at times but he didn't jump out with nice pass rush moves.  

 

They drafted him because Rex was close to him, that should have been shot down. Not his fault he was drafted where he was.

He should be paying Ronnie Stanley big bucks, that spin move was played constantly throughout the draft process. 

[Joe Miner]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

He wasnt wrong.  If Whaley had taken Lynch and showed a commitment generally to finding a franchise QB, he’d probably still be here.  You can justify a failed QB pick to your bosses.  What was the point of the Lawson pick?  How do you justify that pick when you still don’t have a QB?  Hell, the linked thread mentions that the Cowboys tried to trade for the Bills’ pick so they could take Lynch but Whaley said no - so the Cowboys lucked out on Prescott instead (because they were focused on drafting a QB).  Whaley could’ve traded the pick and taken Jack (as many of us here were begging him to do) or just taken Jack there... but staying put and taking Lawson was inexcusable given the position and the opportunity cost and lo and behold, that was the last draft Doug Whaley ran on his own and he is no longer an NFL GM.  When you factor in the trade that was passed on - the Bills essentially took Lawson over an extra 2nd and 3rd and next year’s 1st or whatever it was - and the guy was injured and isn’t even a pass rusher when healthy.

 

This isn’t hindsight, it’s foresight - look at the draft day thread, some of us were saying these things at the time!

 

 

Ah the chorus of we were right.

 

Good to see he has backup singers.

 

Paxton Lynch.

 

Own it. Admit it. Don't get so high and mighty with your opinions.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Joe Miner

[BringBackOrton]

7 minutes ago, Joe Miner said:

 

 

Ah the chorus of we were right.

 

Good to see he has backup singers.

 

Paxton Lynch.

 

Own it. Admit it. Don't get so high and mighty with your opinions.

Are you going to own that you were wrong about Shaq or?

[YoloinOhio]

 

[thenorthremembers]

16 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

He should be paying Ronnie Stanley big bucks, that spin move was played constantly throughout the draft process. 

And the Dwight Freeney comparisons.  It was a bad draft for pass rushers, and it's not like he was a top ten pick.   Clemson had a great d line that year but something about both ends, Shaq and Kevin Dodd seemed to scream plodding.   

 

Feel like maybe he would be better suited to gain weight and play inside.  

[YoloinOhio]

 

[KRT88]

he's getting traded later in camp for a 4th or 5th round pick. 

[thenorthremembers]

11 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Are you going to own that you were wrong about Shaq or?

 

Not meant for me, but I'll freely admit I thought Robert Nkemdiche was a beast that year.  Wanted him in the 1st.

[Joe Miner]

49 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Are you going to own that you were wrong about Shaq or?

 

Sure.  Thought he could have been good for the Bills.  He's been a major disappointment.

 

Good luck getting that group to ever admit they were wrong about anything.  But they'll definitely let you know when someone else was wrong.

[MAJBobby]

Fraizer just essentially squashed anything negative about Shaq. With his “way to young to say make or break”. Best football ahead talk. 

[Kmart128]

I don't think Shaq is on roster bubble. Even if he struggles and can't start at DE then he makes a really good backup DE for a pretty cheap price. I think  he could atleast establish a role where he comes off the bench on running down in place of Hughes. Lawson is really good at setting the edge. So him and Murphy at the End positions make a lot of sense on running downs

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Fraizer just essentially squashed anything negative about Shaq. With his “way to young to say make or break”. Best football ahead talk. 

 

Sounds like what you say about a player right before you trade him.

[Uncle Joe]

4 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

And the Dwight Freeney comparisons.  It was a bad draft for pass rushers, and it's not like he was a top ten pick.   Clemson had a great d line that year but something about both ends, Shaq and Kevin Dodd seemed to scream plodding.   

 

Feel like maybe he would be better suited to gain weight and play inside.  

So just out of curiosity why do you think he is dropping weight instead of bulking up?

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Fully guaranteed contract. And we're already hanging a huge dead cap number. Only way I trade him is if the depth guys behind him out perform him.  

 

Doesn't matter if he's better than Murphy. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 hours ago, KRT88 said:

he's getting traded later in camp for a 4th or 5th round pick. 

 

...so if he has a lousy camp, who would be THAT taker?.....just curious......

[billsfan89]

14 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I dont know

At what point does a high first round pick DE actually show that he can play better then undrafted free agents?

 

I root for him.....but I just have this bad feeling now that they have a guy in front of him in the line up in Murphy

 

My point was that camp needs to play out more. 2 so-so practices does not a training camp make. You have to let it play out more. Players are in shape conditioning wise but there is still football rust to be worked out. Shaq is a player who is a little bit smaller than he was playing at in the past, probably needs a week or so to get used to playing at that weight. If its week 2-3 of pre-season and Shaq can't hack it then we have a real problem. 
 

Also Shaq doesn't have to beat out Murphy to stay on the roster. Shaq can make the roster as a backup/rotational player. The Eagles and Jags showed that you need a full unit of rotational guys to be effective pass rush wise. Shaq has to be the 4th best DE on the roster to make the team. Shaq is on a cheap contract so there is no reason they wouldn't keep him as a backup. 

[NewEraBills]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Fraizer just essentially squashed anything negative about Shaq. With his “way to young to say make or break”. Best football ahead talk. 

He never said his best football would be with the Bills.