Daboll's preferred offense and QB.

[Logic]

Below are some great articles about the Erhardt-Perkins offense, which our new offensive coordinator will be running. The first talks about the system in general, with some great diagrams of plays to give examples. The second article talks about Daboll's offense specifically.

http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/

http://www.al.com/alabamafootball/index.ssf/2017/11/why_alabamas_offense_is_like_a.html

 

"The backbone of the Erhardt-Perkins system is that plays — pass plays in particular — are not organized by a route tree or by calling a single receiver’s route, but by what coaches refer to as “concepts.” Each play has a name, and that name conjures up an image for both the quarterback and the other players on offense. And, most importantly, the concept can be called from almost any formation or set. Who does what changes, but the theory and tactics driving the play do not. “In essence, you’re running the same play,” said Perkins. “You’re just giving them some window-dressing to make it look different.”

The biggest advantage of the concept-based system is that it operates from the perspective of the most critical player on offense: the quarterback. In other systems, even if the underlying principles are the exact same, the play and its name might be very different. Rather than juggling all this information in real time, an Erhardt-Perkins quarterback only has to read a given arrangement of receivers. “You can cut down on the plays and get different looks from your formations and who’s in them. It’s easier for the players to learn. It’s easier for the quarterback to learn,” former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said back in 2000. “You get different looks without changing his reads. You don’t need an open-ended number of plays.”

 

Let’s look at a play that has long been a staple of the Patriots attack. This is actually two different concepts put together — “ghost/tosser,” which has the Patriots run the ghost concept to one side and the tosser concept to the other. Ghost has the outermost receiver, whoever it is, run a vertical route, one inside receiver run to a depth of roughly eight yards before breaking flat to the outside, and the innermost receiver run immediately to the flat. It’s a form of the “stick” or “turn” concept that essentially every NFL team uses. On the other side, tosser means that the receivers run the double-slant concept. The page below is from the Patriots’ playbook.

The theory here is that no matter the formation, there is an outside receiver, an inside receiver, and a middle receiver, and each will be responsible for running his designated route. For the quarterback, this means the play can be run repeatedly, from different formations and with different personnel, all while his read stays effectively the same. Once receivers understand each concept, they only have to know at which position they’re lined up. The personnel and formation might cause the defense to respond differently, but for New England those changes only affect which side Brady prefers or which receiver he expects to be open. This conceptual approach is how the Patriots are able to run the same basic plays, whether spreading the field with four or five receivers or using multiple tight ends and running backs.

And from Daboll:

"You choose what you want to do and each week based on what the other team does, based on the coverages that they play," he said. "You don't just draw up new stuff every week...We can expand that or contract it or use the things that we think are best based on what the other team plays. I think that's what we've tried to do all year long and that's what gives the players the best chance to execute."

After reading these articles and diving into the Erhardt-Perkins offense in general, I feel pretty excited about Buffalo's offensive future. The diversity that the offense offers -- while still using verbiage that is simpler than many other systems -- is enticing. I get the sense that with this offense, and with Daboll's recent experience coaching the college game, we're going to see a much more diverse, modern, interesting offensive attack in Buffalo next year. An attack that adjusts from week to week to exploit opponent's weaknesses and find advantageous personnel matchups. Unlike many on these forums, I think the hire of Daboll was an excellent one and I can't wait to see his offense in action.

GO BILLS!!!

 

[Just Joshin']

This is what makes a good site, not one line comments that a person sucks with no supporting facts.

[NewEraBills]

Awesome was looking for something yesterday and couldn't find anything.  Thank you sir.

[Logic]

Y'all are both welcome! 

I am so, so relieved that the Bills didn't pick another dinosaur for OC. I was hoping they'd reach into the college ranks and take someone with a modern offense, and they did! This will help our rookie QB and help drag our passing game into the 21st century. 

There are two types of offenses in the NFL: Those who embrace modern concepts and college concepts (Eagles, Rams, Patriots, Texans with Watson at QB, Chiefs) and those who are stuck in the past. In 2017, the Bills were the latter. In 2018, I think they'll (FINALLY) be the former! 

Go Bills!!!

[Royale with Cheese]

So maybe Alex Smith is someone they go after strongly with this offense?

[billspro]

Looks like a modern passing attack to me. We have been waiting for a good passing game for so long. 

[Logic]

38 minutes ago, billspro said:

Looks like a modern passing attack to me. We have been waiting for a good passing game for so long. 

Agreed. It would be nice to see a 2018 passing offense rather than a 1998 passing offense.

[RiotAct]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

Agreed. It would be nice to see a 2018 passing offense rather than a 1998 passing offense.

Greatest Show on Turf...

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I like the sound of this!

 

[brianthomas]

thanks for posting this. I read the original article posted & it was quite informative. Gives me hope that Daboll could be a great hire & a step in the right direction.

With a simplified & more diverse system, along with a solid draft & offseason acquisitions, I don't think i've ever been more excited for the future as I am right now.

 

GO BILLS!

[Misterbluesky]

I guess getting a speedster at wr is not on the top of the priority list now.Woods would have been good in this "system".

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, NewEraBills said:

Awesome was looking for something yesterday and couldn't find anything.  Thank you sir.

 

Not meaning to pick nits or rain on this thread, but several links (including the first one) were posted and referenced in the original Daboll thread yesterday, along with the suggestion to google 'Ehrhardt Perkins' - which turns up a lot of hits - including these.

 

 

 

 

 

[NewEraBills]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not meaning to pick nits or rain on this thread, but several links (including the first one) were posted and referenced in the original Daboll thread yesterday, along with the suggestion to google 'Ehrhardt Perkins' - which turns up a lot of hits - including these.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That thread got so big I didn't feel like searching through it and may have missed it in the earlier posts in the thread.  Also I was looking for play diagrams and actually a playbook.  You generally can find a playbook somewhere.

Edited January 15, 2018 by NewEraBills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, Misterbluesky said:

I guess getting a speedster at wr is not on the top of the priority list now.Woods would have been good in this "system".

 

A speedster can be put to good use in this system.  It's also going to depend a bit on which implementation Daboll favors.  I would assume by default, the Pat's version which depends on quite precise route running and in-depth knowledge of the playbook by the WR.

 

Gailey's version was more casual: "Beat your man, get to the spot" was his mantra.

 

1 minute ago, NewEraBills said:

That thread got so big I didn't feel like searching through it and may have missed it in the earlier posts in the thread.

 

I understand.  It's just a little frustrating when one tries to be a "good netizen" and post information on existing threads instead of fissioning off new ones.

 

27 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

Greatest Show on Turf...

 

Oh Sweet Jesus Please No.  I hope you don't know what you're referencing.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Magox]

So basically we are looking for a bunch of tosser's.

[Just Joshin']

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not meaning to pick nits or rain on this thread, but several links (including the first one) were posted and referenced in the original Daboll thread yesterday, along with the suggestion to google 'Ehrhardt Perkins' - which turns up a lot of hits - including these.

 

 

 

 

 

Could not finish - got sick of all the negativity.

 

While we don't need 10 threads on the same topic the hot ones do tend to get too large and too general.

[chris heff]

I’m confused, how is an offense designed by Ray Perkins and Ron Erhardt a modern 2018 NFL offense?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, Dalton said:

Could not finish - got sick of all the negativity.

 

While we don't need 10 threads on the same topic the hot ones do tend to get too large and too general.

 

Fair point.

 

[jr1]

the Bills used this multiple times already https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots_strategy#NFL_teams_that_used_the_Erhardt-Perkins_offense

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, chris heff said:

I’m confused, how is an offense designed by Ray Perkins and Ron Erhardt a modern 2018 NFL offense?

 

It's not the offense its verbiage .

 

its football, it over a hundred years old. Everybody runs the same plays.

 

what changes from team to team is verbiage and concepts 

 

the three three main verbiage offense are the west coast which is a memory offense

 

the Coryel which is a route tree offense

 

and the erhardt/Perkins which is not ran by route tree but by concepts 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Buffalo716

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

9 minutes ago, chris heff said:

I’m confused, how is an offense designed by Ray Perkins and Ron Erhardt a modern 2018 NFL offense?

 

I think it's really just in conceptualizing the offense,  and naming plays.  

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

It's not the offense its verbiage .

 

its football, it over a hundred years old. Everybody runs the same plays.

 

what changes from team to team is verbiage and concepts 

 

the three three main verbiage offense are the west coast which is a memory offense

 

the Coryel which is a route tree offense

 

and the erhardt/Perkins which is not ran by route tree but by concepts 

 

 

 

You said it better.  I think it lends to a better no huddle attack once everyone is on the same page - but that might just be brady being good.  

[BuffaloBill]

The Bills hired him because they obviously want a concept change.  I also wonder if running the same offense as your key competitor makes it better for your d.  They practice against it all the time now.

[Rubes]

Sounds reasonable. In the end, what really matters is having a QB who can read the defense, find the right receiver, and put it in exactly the right spot.

 

[Logic]

33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not meaning to pick nits or rain on this thread, but several links (including the first one) were posted and referenced in the original Daboll thread yesterday, along with the suggestion to google 'Ehrhardt Perkins' - which turns up a lot of hits - including these.

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough. I combed through about 20 pages of the Daboll thread and didn't see it, then got frustrated by the whining and backed out to the main forum. Apologies for re-posting something that was already covered.

[eball]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Agreed. It would be nice to see a 2018 passing offense rather than a 1998 1978 passing offense.

 

Fixed for accuracy.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Agreed. It would be nice to see a 2018 passing offense rather than a 1998 passing offense.

Be nice to see a QB that can execute a 2018 passing offense. 

[JaCrispy]

1 hour ago, Misterbluesky said:

I guess getting a speedster at wr is not on the top of the priority list now.Woods would have been good in this "system".

Perhaps...I would like to see us draft a Julien Edelman or Wes Welker type receiver- that is quick in small spaces.  That type of receiver is so key to the Pats sustaining their drives.

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Perhaps...I would like to see us draft a Julien Edelman or Wes Welker type receiver- that is quick in small spaces.  That type of receiver is so key to the Pats sustaining their drives.

 

For that type of WR to thrive you literally need one of the most accurate QBs in the world ala Brady, Brees, Rodgers , Ryan 

 

Not that there's a crazy difference between 5'9 and 6'0 but there is in the NFL lol

 

id be pumped to get a refined route runner next year tho hopefully closer to 6'0

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

This offense seems like it could be a amazing offense with elite talent to run it. With a QB like Alex Smith or AJ McCarron running it with our current offensive talent I could see us moving up 10 to 15 spots in total offense and scoring offense. 

[FLFan]

48 minutes ago, Logic said:

Fair enough. I combed through about 20 pages of the Daboll thread and didn't see it, then got frustrated by the whining and backed out to the main forum. Apologies for re-posting something that was already covered.

Thank you.  You were right to do this.  The main thread has literally nothing of a serious analysis, just opinions based on superficial looks at his biography, and a few quotes. This had the potential to be lost in the muck and deserves its own thread in my opinion.  

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Now all we need is a quarterback with a head on his shoulders and some vision.  Accuracy would certainly help as well.  We can only hope.

[chris heff]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

It's not the offense its verbiage .

 

its football, it over a hundred years old. Everybody runs the same plays.

 

what changes from team to team is verbiage and concepts 

 

the three three main verbiage offense are the west coast which is a memory offense

 

the Coryel which is a route tree offense

 

and the erhardt/Perkins which is not ran by route tree but by concepts 

 

 

I’m still confused,it’s a conceptual offense? Not to bring up a sore subject, but when EJ was the QB one of the criticisms was that he came from dumbed down offense at FSU. That offense really only had a handful of plays that were run out of multiple formations. Isn’t that what Perkins/Erhardt offense is?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

37 minutes ago, MDFan said:

Thank you.  You were right to do this.  The main thread has literally nothing of a serious analysis, just opinions based on superficial looks at his biography, and a few quotes. This had the potential to be lost in the muck and deserves its own thread in my opinion.  

 

"Logic" and others had the very fair point that when threads are too long people understandably don't want to wade through them, but you are incorrect.

The original thread had EXACTLY this information.

 

10 minutes ago, chris heff said:

I’m still confused,it’s a conceptual offense? Not to bring up a sore subject, but when EJ was the QB one of the criticisms was that he came from dumbed down offense at FSU. That offense really only had a handful of plays that were run out of multiple formations. Isn’t that what Perkins/Erhardt offense is?

 

The Patriots offensive playbook is quite thick, don't doubt

 

I am by far not the right person to explain this simply and correctly.  I dug around a bit and found this article from 2011, interviewing Bill Belicheck (sorry about that) which may help.  Edit: Gah, or maybe not, it's not the one I thought it was.  This one may be more help. 

 

The fundamental principle as I understand it is you can run the exact same passing routes and combinations of passing routes under any of these systems.  But in the WCO, it's all spelled out precisely for each skill player.  The same play executed on the left or the right has a different playcall.  In E-P,  combinations of routes are grouped together and described by a single word, and who does what is determined by where the players line up combined with the play call.  So it's easier to understand the similarities and to minimize the reads the QB has to memorize.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Shaw66]

Thanks for the post.   Interesting article from Grantland.

 

Really doesn't say a lot about philosophy.   Just passing terminology.    

 

But I'm happy to have anyone out of the Belichick/Saban tree.  

[stevewin]

But is the Erhardt-Perkins concept flexible enough to accommodate the Joe Webb Package?

[Buffalo716]

24 minutes ago, chris heff said:

I’m still confused,it’s a conceptual offense? Not to bring up a sore subject, but when EJ was the QB one of the criticisms was that he came from dumbed down offense at FSU. That offense really only had a handful of plays that were run out of multiple formations. Isn’t that what Perkins/Erhardt offense is?

 

To a point.

 

Again, everybody runs the same plays to a degree. The difference is some teams (good teams) will add a few more concepts than bad teams 

 

in the west coast offense the verbiage is all memory. To oversimplify, the system uses what is essentially a memory system. On running plays, the same two-digit numbering system as most NFL and college teams is used. Passing plays, however, are typically denoted by the primary receiver’s route, such as Z- in x- hook , while the rest of the players are required to memorize their task. These plays can be 15 words long sometimes longer 

 

The Coryell system is similar to the west coast but relaces the verbiage with the route tree. So you can have a play called 896 and all receivers would know what to do . but the 1 back system has rendered this all but obsolete because you must add in west coast verbiage as well

 

the erhardt/ Perkins verbiage is based all around the concepts of the offense. So you can have choice combinations , in combinations, flood, etc and they all mean something to everyone when called 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Buffalo716

[Strethor]

This is exciting 

[H2o]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

So maybe Alex Smith is someone they go after strongly with this offense?

This was my thought after reading about the offense. You will need a smart QB who can process info quickly to get the ball to the correct man. I think Cousins would be a good option as well, but it comes down to the $$$ they want to spend. Alex Smith would only be a bridge to a rookie we draft in the 1st or 2nd. Cousins would be the guy for the next 4 or 5 years. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

......interesting....system used here three times before......

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots_strategy

 

SEASONS                                               HC                          OC

2002	2003	Buffalo Bills	Gregg Williams			Kevin Gilbride
2004	2005	Buffalo Bills	Mike Mularkey		Tom Clements
2010	2012	Buffalo Bills	Chan Gailey	Curtis Modkins

[145B4IDIE]

2 hours ago, Rubes said:

Sounds reasonable. In the end, what really matters is having a QB who can read the defense, find the right receiver, and put it in exactly the right spot.

 

I'm being serious, sounds like Peterman's scouting report