Daboll's preferred offense and QB.

[GunnerBill]

I don't know why people feel like the system would be a fit for Tyrod? The E-P requires quick and sharp decision making at the Quarterback position more than almost anything else. Tyrod doesn't make quick decisions. 

[ALF]

My hope is for the OL  to stay more with the Kromer scheme. Glenn to be healthy , try Dawkins at RT , Miller back at RG.

 

If the OL can pass protect, Peterman in his 2nd season just might be the guy. So many positions to fill would hate to trade up in the next draft.

[AmishRifle]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

My hope is for the OL  to stay more with the Kromer scheme. Glenn to be healthy , try Dawkins at RT , Miller back at RG.

 

If the OL can pass protect, Peterman in his 2nd season just might be the guy. So many positions to fill would hate to trade up in the next draft.

I absolutely agree with you.  I really think Peterman will be the guy.  Build the lines through this draft.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Well, yes, this sounds essentially like a dumbed down offense that can be spiced up depending on players and QB.

 

No, it's not dumbed down at all, though it can be simpler for the QB.  It can be very sophisticated, but also very flexible.  The Pats E-P offense thrives on WC-like short pass plays that turn into big gains with RAC and if the teams try to smother the middle of the field without adequate pressure they exploit the run and hit deep shots. The Giants offense under Gilbride in the SB years thrived on play action and looking for big chunks of yards down the field.

 

Someone else in one of these threads pointed out that to some extent, it shifts some of the responsibility of knowing what's going on from the QB to the other players.  In a West Coast play call, what route each receiver will run is explicitly called out and sometimes to what depth (like Air Coryell).  In E-P, they know where to line up and what they play call is, they need to know for themselves what to do.  That's where Fitz threw a bunch of INTs here, when the DB opposite knew more about what route they were supposed to run (from film study) than our WR did (NB I'm not saying it's all on that, just you could see sometimes he expected shuck and he got jive).  That's why Ochocinco was being called out by ex-Pats in the media for not "getting his head in the playbook"

 

Anyway the shift in responsibility is why IMHO it will be important for Daboll to bring in the right assistants who can really teach the system.  If he doesn't have position coaches who really understand the system and how it should work and are good at teaching, it will not look pretty.

 

There was a good article on Gilbride and the Giants running this offense back in theSuperbowl days, I'm still looking for it.  Will share link when I find.

33 minutes ago, AmishRifle said:

I absolutely agree with you.  I really think Peterman will be the guy.  Build the lines through this draft.

 

I do not understand the factual basis for this belief in Peterman.  I'm not saying he's crap or doesn't belong in the NFL, don't get me wrong.

But what on earth has he shown that makes you think he should be counted on as a QB in any regard?

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I do not understand the factual basis for this belief in Peterman.  I'm not saying he's crap or doesn't belong in the NFL, don't get me wrong.

But what on earth has he shown that makes you think he should be counted on as a QB in any regard?

 

Plus his biggest advocate just got fired...

[SWATeam]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I do not understand the factual basis for this belief in Peterman.  I'm not saying he's crap or doesn't belong in the NFL, don't get me wrong.

But what on earth has he shown that makes you think he should be counted on as a QB in any regard?

Personally, I love Peterman's quick release and anticipation.  I think he could do well in a timing based offense.  He was thrown to the wolves last year.

 

Still need to draft one and pick one up in free agency though.

[transplantbillsfan]

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 11:05 AM, BeefCurtns said:

One thing for sure Tyrod is as good as gone. He's too stupid for this offense.

 

This is an idiotic post.  What evidence do you have that Taylor is stupid? 

 

Besides, these articles really emphasize how QB friendly they are. 

 

To me, looks easier for the QB to grasp and harder for the other players to grasp.  So, I wonder if the Bills, having brought Dabol in, will try to get one of NE's UFAs at one of the skill positions to be there to help teach the other Bills skill players. I see that NE has 3 UFA RBs in Burkhead, Lewis, and Bolden and 2 UFA WRs in Slater and Amendola.  I wouldn't be surprised if one of those 5 guys are in a Bills uniform next year.

[reddogblitz]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:25 PM, 26CornerBlitz said:

to only 5 INTs (two coming from drops by his receivers Charles Clay),

 

18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He has not said a word, but it's the only offensive system he's worked in.  It would be bizarre indeed for a new OC to install a system he's never before used.

 

What used to drive me bug!@#$ about Gailey was his play selection.  He would move away from that unmatched running and screen game, and call plays that could utilize Aaron Rodgers when he had Ryan Fitzpatrick instead.

 

I always liked the 5WR/empty backfield on 3rd and 1.

[transplantbillsfan]

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't know why people feel like the system would be a fit for Tyrod? The E-P requires quick and sharp decision making at the Quarterback position more than almost anything else. Tyrod doesn't make quick decisions. 

 

I disagree with your assessment, at least based on what I read in these articles.  It seems like the E-P system is designed for success for just about any capable QB.  But I also disagree that people are saying anything like "Tyrod is a fit" for this system in the sense that other QBs aren't.

 

I think the point of the system is that it's designed to work for any QB but seems to require more intelligent skill position players who need to know all the formations, which is why I said it wouldn't surprise me if the Bills go out and try to get Burkhead, Lewis, Bolden, Amendola, or Slater when the Patriots inevitably let one or two of those UFAs walk in FA in a couple months.

 

But regarding the QB specifically:

 

http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/

“In essence, you’re running the same play,” said Perkins. “You’re just giving them some window-dressing to make it look different.”

 

The biggest advantage of the concept-based system is that it operates from the perspective of the most critical player on offense: the quarterback. In other systems, even if the underlying principles are the exact same, the play and its name might be very different. Rather than juggling all this information in real time, an Erhardt-Perkins quarterback only has to read a given arrangement of receivers. “You can cut down on the plays and get different looks from your formations and who’s in them. It’s easier for the players to learn. It’s easier for the quarterback to learn,” former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said back in 2000. “You get different looks without changing his reads. You don’t need an open-ended number of plays.”

 

This simplicity is one of the reasons coaches around the league have been gravitating to the Erhardt-Perkins approach.

 

and

 

For many years, the Erhardt-Perkins offense was known as the original ground-and-pound, a conservative, run-first offense summed up by Erhardt’s mantra, “You throw to score and run to win.”

 

The theory here is that no matter the formation, there is an outside receiver, an inside receiver, and a middle receiver, and each will be responsible for running his designated route. For the quarterback, this means the play can be run repeatedly, from different formations and with different personnel, all while his read stays effectively the same. Once receivers understand each concept, they only have to know at which position they’re lined up. The personnel and formation might cause the defense to respond differently, but for New England those changes only affect which side Brady prefers or which receiver he expects to be open.

 

 

 

I don't know what happens, but I think cover_1.net pretty much nails my feelings about what's going on at OBD and what's going to unfold this season with Taylor:

 

http://www.cover1.net/should-he-stay-or-should-he-go-qb-tyrod-taylor/

...after the hire of Daboll as the team’s new OC, I think Tyrod’s odds to come back for his 4th year with the Bills just got higher.

 

Tyrod clearly wasn’t a fit for Dennison’s scheme since the beginning. His struggles with the quick 3- and 5-step dropback passes were clear from the preseason. Dennison made adjustments during the season, using a lot of play action roll out plays to put Tyrod in space, but his offense never fully worked with Taylor as the QB. Now with Daboll, everything seemingly changes. Daboll likes to run the ball with power concepts, has experience working with a top college dual-threat QB in Jalen Hurts, and will surely know how to maximize Taylor’s skill set. Greg Roman and Anthony Lynn showed the Bills can have a top-10 offense with Taylor at the helm, and Tyrod surely showed Sean McDermott and GM Brandon Beane that he’s a model of a pro, a true blue collar presence in the locker room, always working hard and being a good soldier, even when things didn’t go well for him. He can be a limited passer, but it’s obvious a rookie QB can benefit a lot having a true pro like Taylor around. To this regime character matters, and Tyrod is impeccable in this department.

Edited January 20, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[swnybillsfan]

On 1/18/2018 at 2:09 PM, BringBackFlutie said:

 

Exactly.  This is not new.

 

https://www.ganggreennation.com/2015/1/14/7545199/everything-you-need-to-know-about-chan-gaileys-offense

 

"What Gailey does instead is to change the formation and personnel, but running the same core concepts from each, to give you fifteen different looks of what is, at its most basic function, the same play. For further reading, I suggest you take a look at BuffaloRumblings."

 

And

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2012/6/21/3105714/buffalo-bills-offense-chan-gailey-spread

 

"Gailey's offense is complex only in the sense that it uses a variety of different personnel groupings, formations and motions to execute the same play calls."

 

Gailey's offense was also often compared to the Pats' offense in that it ran a lot of stacked sets of WRs and rub routes.   His offense was better, in some ways, though.  His running and screen game was unmatched.  Nothing could stop his offense if he had a Ryan Fitzpatrick that could throw past 15 yards.  I always believed that's why we had so much trouble scoring points after the first half of the season- Fitz's arm was dead.  I don't think it had much to do with the offense being "figured out."

there were a lot of things i loved about Chan's offense. i loved the cast of characters running it also. they were a bunch of lovable underdogs, most of which had more heart than talent. i always said that fitz played the position the way i wanted it played...with lots of guts and gusto. unfortunately he didn't have the best arm, accuracy, or judgement. but i always wondered what that offense would look like with a bit more talent. still have a soft spot for Chan and the boys.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

I always liked the 5WR/empty backfield on 3rd and 1.

 

Yes, exactly. 

[swnybillsfan]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

 

I always liked the 5WR/empty backfield on 3rd and 1.

indeed. spread it out and look for the path of least resistance. much better than jumbling up 22 guys in a twenty foot box.

[Elite Poster]

Great post

[Wily Dog]

10 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Plus his biggest advocate just got fired...

McD is Peterman's biggest booster

[26TrapDraw]

7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

This is an idiotic post.  What evidence do you have that Taylor is stupid? 

 

Besides, these articles really emphasize how QB friendly they are. 

 

To me, looks easier for the QB to grasp and harder for the other players to grasp.  So, I wonder if the Bills, having brought Dabol in, will try to get one of NE's UFAs at one of the skill positions to be there to help teach the other Bills skill players. I see that NE has 3 UFA RBs in Burkhead, Lewis, and Bolden and 2 UFA WRs in Slater and Amendola.  I wouldn't be surprised if one of those 5 guys are in a Bills uniform next year.

Hmmm let's see... he can't get past 1 receiver in his progression  but most of all he steps to the line and can't read a defense and check out of a play you know like a SMART QB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

On 1/15/2018 at 2:26 PM, Logic said:

Fair enough. I combed through about 20 pages of the Daboll thread and didn't see it, then got frustrated by the whining and backed out to the main forum. Apologies for re-posting something that was already covered.

Thank you for posting this. I get it. Going through 10 pages of a thread to see if someone posted any new information on a point is kind of a pain. Unless of course its a 100 page thread on the Dunkirk Don- Chad insider info spectacle. 

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, Wily Dog said:

McD is Peterman's biggest booster

Probably. I think Denison just hated Tyrod’s game and Nate was his only other alternative. 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I disagree with your assessment, at least based on what I read in these articles.  It seems like the E-P system is designed for success for just about any capable QB.  But I also disagree that people are saying anything like "Tyrod is a fit" for this system in the sense that other QBs aren't.

 

 

None of what you quote after this does anything but agree with my assessment. There might be fewer plays but the system requires quick reads. Quick reads are exactly what Tyrod struggles with.

 

As for cover 1... look I think the guys there do a great job and I listen to their podcast regularly when I am on the treadmill at the gym but as recently as the pre-season they were saying Dennison's system was a really good fit for Tyrod and I was saying "no it isn't". I had a pretty detailed x and o conversation with Erik about it on this forum. 

 

Does this hire increase Tyrod's chance to be back? I have no feel for that really.... but it shouldn't. I see him having no more success in Daboll's system than in Dennison's. We HAD the perfect coordinator for Tyrod Taylor who had an offense he played his best ball in. He was fired as a scapegoat for his boss. 

[transplantbillsfan]

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

None of what you quote after this does anything but agree with my assessment. There might be fewer plays but the system requires quick reads. Quick reads are exactly what Tyrod struggles with.

 

As for cover 1... look I think the guys there do a great job and I listen to their podcast regularly when I am on the treadmill at the gym but as recently as the pre-season they were saying Dennison's system was a really good fit for Tyrod and I was saying "no it isn't". I had a pretty detailed x and o conversation with Erik about it on this forum. 

 

Does this hire increase Tyrod's chance to be back? I have no feel for that really.... but it shouldn't. I see him having no more success in Daboll's system than in Dennison's. We HAD the perfect coordinator for Tyrod Taylor who had an offense he played his best ball in. He was fired as a scapegoat for his boss. 

 

Still disagree.

 

The biggest knock regarding Taylor has been going through his progressions post snap. This system makes all the post snap stuff much easier for the QB because it sets the QB up with knowledge pre snap of precisely where his guys will be on every play and the system seems largely predicated on knowing where you're going with the ball before the snap. When Taylor has known where he's going with the football before the snap, he's been pretty decisive and accurate. When that 1st read is taken away, as that first article discusses, the WCO and Coryell systems might have different routes in different places on any given play whereas this system seems to set it up so guys are consistently in the same places depending on the passing concept, for which there can be as few or as many as an OC wants to include.

 

That's the way I understand it, at least.

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Still disagree.

 

The biggest knock regarding Taylor has been going through his progressions post snap. This system makes all the post snap stuff much easier for the QB because it sets the QB up with knowledge pre snap of precisely where his guys will be on every play and the system seems largely predicated on knowing where you're going with the ball before the snap. When Taylor has known where he's going with the football before the snap, he's been pretty decisive and accurate. When that 1st read is taken away, as that first article discusses, the WCO and Coryell systems might have different routes in different places on any given play whereas this system seems to set it up so guys are consistently in the same places depending on the passing concept, for which there can be as few or as many as an OC wants to include.

 

That's the way I understand it, at least.

 

Tyrod's issues reading defenses are pre and post snap. He just isn't very good at it.

 

Believe me in the Dennison offense he knew where guys were going to be. That offense is as close as it gets in the NFL to paint by numbers. The receivers' routes are linked to the Quarterback's feet. It is all rhythm and timing if your footwork is right and the ball is out on time the receiver will be in a spot. Now the failure in that scheme wasn't all on Tyrod. Our receivers were bad (I'd have fired the WR coach before anyone) at hitting their spots but the ball wasn't out on time too often anyway. Tyrod's best game was week 3 vs Denver.... he was getting the ball out on time that day in the rhythm of the offense and everything was clicking. The rest of the year he would have known where receivers ought to be but he still wasn't decisive. 

 

The E-P will not provide greater certainty on where receivers will be. It allows receivers to make adjustments by reading the coverage themselves. You need a Quarterback and receiver in sync and on the same page so that those quick decisions become 2nd nature. Think Brady and Welker / Edelman.

 

You are entitled to disagree, of course, but I was right about Tyrod's fit with Dennison. If we get chance to see it I suspect I will be right about his fit with Daboll too.

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by GunnerBill

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Tyrod's issues reading defenses are pre and post snap. He just isn't very good at it.

 

Believe me in the Dennison offense he knew where guys were going to be. That offense is as close as it gets in the NFL to paint by numbers. The receivers' routes are linked to the Quarterback's feet. It is all rhythm and timing if your footwork is right and the ball is out on time the receiver will be in a spot. Now the failure in that scheme wasn't all on Tyrod. Our receivers were bad (I'd have fired the WR coach before anyone) at hitting their spots but the ball wasn't out on time too often anyway. Tyrod's best game was week 3 vs Denver.... he was getting the ball out on time that day in the rhythm of the offense and everything was clicking. The rest of the year he would have known where receivers ought to be but he still wasn't decisive. 

 

The E-P will not provide greater certainty on where receivers will be. It allows receivers to make adjustments by reading the coverage themselves. You need a Quarterback and receiver in sync and on the same page so that those quick decisions become 2nd nature. Think Brady and Welker / Edelman.

 

You are entitled to disagree, of course, but I was right about Tyrod's fit with Dennison. If we get chance to see it I suspect I will be right about his fit with Daboll too.

 

 

All fair. I still respectfully disagree. And I made sure to read up more on the system. It just sounds like a system that is built to be spectacular and historic under a great QB like Brady and pretty good or better under a capable QB. I'm guessing we're going to disagree that Tyrod is a capable QB, so no need to quibble over something we're never going to agree on. But some more stuff I found:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bigblueview.com/platform/amp/2016/7/15/12188564/summer-school-erhardt-perkins-offense-belichick-weis-parcells-brady-patriots

"Fairbanks was a defensive specialist, so he entrusted the offensive side of the ball to Erhardt and Perkins who developed a quarterback-friendly system of passing. Their focus was on a run-first offense and a simplified passing game helped them dedicate their attention where they felt it was needed. The Erhardt-Perkins offense was born."

 

and

 

"The QB only has to remember the shape of the route combinations to understand the play, regardless of personnel in the huddle. Add to this the ability to run the ball out of any of these plays, and the offense can easily run the same play multiple times in a series with minimal worry. The simplicity gives the offense a huge advantage in no-huddle situations, while also maintaining disguises when they want to substitute personnel."

 

and

http://baltimoresportsandlife.com/erhardt-perkins-system-part-2/

 

"Simple to learn, simple to run, easy to call on the fly, hard to defend.  It has evolved over the years from coaches Bill Parcells, Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher, Bill Belichick and all his disciples. Consider the fact that Charlie Weis turned Brady Quinn and Jimmy Claussen into 1st and 2nd round picks with this system at Notre Dame."

 

and

 

"In the E-P system, there are no requirements, except for a competent quarterback. Any team in any system will take that. Joe Flacco is certainly a competent QB. You don’t have to worry about missing one guy and the system failing because of it."

 

and

 

"You can’t help but shake your head in awe at times when watching guys like Manning and Brady operate. They make it look so easy. They make it look easy because apparently, it is easier in their systems. Brown made mention in his article that a play-call in the Air Coryell system the Ravens run might sound like, “Scatter-Two Bunch-Right-Zip-Fire 2 Jet Texas Right-F Flat X-Q.” In the EP system, one word the Patriots use is “ghost” which a two man route combination, or “tosser” which is a three man route combination. That’s how these up tempo offense operate so smoothly. Brady is coming to the line shouting just two words, and everyone knows what they’re doing. It’s so much easier for the players to memorize, enabling them to get on the same page faster if unexpectedly called upon"

 

and

 

"The E-P system is a simple one. Take what the defense will give you. You can be a power running team one week, a spread out air raid offense the next, a balanced attack that keeps teams guessing the week after that.  You can put up points in a hurry, or slow the pace down to a crawl. It doesn’t need specific personnel. Since specific types of players aren’t required, it opens up more possibilities when drafting players or signing free agents."

 

and then I found this

https://247sports.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/Board/102967/Contents/Erhardt-Perkins-Offensive-Philosophy-70429781

 

"No one asked, but I would vote for Erhardt-Perkins because it's easier to learn, and you get different looks without changing the reads. It's also easier to make changes at the line of scrimmage, which is good if you want an up-tempo style.

 

Mike McCoy, brought it to the Chargers last year, and got a playoff season with Tim Tebow using it in Denver."

 

So it made me look up how McDaniels was using it in Denver with Tebow... the descriptions in these 2 articles use Orton as the intended QB, but Tebow would take over in week 5 and lead the team to a 7-5 record in the rest of his starts and a playoff win

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/fat-camp-the-erhardt-perkins-offense-part-

 

"The EP is particularly known for using a lot of trapping and pulling by the offensive line. A dedication to running the ball was a traditional part of the system"

 

and

 

"The EP has often been linked with the Air Coryell offense to combine the aggression of a powerful running game with the constant threat to the defense of a deep pass. It’s a system that’s based in an aggressive, hostile take-no-prisoners approach to the game"

 

and

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/fat-camp-the-erhardt-perkins-offense-part-2

 

"McDaniels did in setting up his own preferences with some pretty standard EP principles - motion on the OL and both pulling and trapping, with aggressive run formations and scheme and a power running game that also protects the QB. "

and

 

"In terms of passing, the EP commonly uses a Coryell-based vertical passing attack that creates the time for those plays to develop (among other options) by freezing the D momentarily with play-action passing. Orton is particularly good there, and that may give him time to work through his progressions, which he can be slow at sometimes."

 

 

Plenty more to read about. I don't think Tyrod is in any long term plans because I'm convinced we're going to draft a QB in the 1st. I don't think we're going to make a run at Cousins because of the cost and fact that he's never going to likely be better than a fringe top 10 QB. I don't think we make a run at Smith because he's really just not much better than Tyrod and we'd have to trade for him, though given McDermott's relationship with Reid it's certainly possible. I think this staff wants "their guy" to draft and groom and mold. And the rookie might just be thrust in as the starter right away. Who knows? Regardless of who our QB is, I'm really excited to see Dabol's iteration of this system because it appears to be a system a QB can have pretty immediate success with  

 

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

All fair. I still respectfully disagree. And I made sure to read up more on the system. It just sounds like a system that is built to be spectacular and historic under a great QB like Brady and pretty good or better under a capable QB. I'm guessing we're going to disagree that Tyrod is a capable QB, so no need to quibble over something we're never going to agree on. But some more stuff I found:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bigblueview.com/platform/amp/2016/7/15/12188564/summer-school-erhardt-perkins-offense-belichick-weis-parcells-brady-patriots

"Fairbanks was a defensive specialist, so he entrusted the offensive side of the ball to Erhardt and Perkins who developed a quarterback-friendly system of passing. Their focus was on a run-first offense and a simplified passing game helped them dedicate their attention where they felt it was needed. The Erhardt-Perkins offense was born."

 

and

 

"The QB only has to remember the shape of the route combinations to understand the play, regardless of personnel in the huddle. Add to this the ability to run the ball out of any of these plays, and the offense can easily run the same play multiple times in a series with minimal worry. The simplicity gives the offense a huge advantage in no-huddle situations, while also maintaining disguises when they want to substitute personnel."

 

and

http://baltimoresportsandlife.com/erhardt-perkins-system-part-2/

 

"Simple to learn, simple to run, easy to call on the fly, hard to defend.  It has evolved over the years from coaches Bill Parcells, Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher, Bill Belichick and all his disciples. Consider the fact that Charlie Weis turned Brady Quinn and Jimmy Claussen into 1st and 2nd round picks with this system at Notre Dame."

 

and

 

"In the E-P system, there are no requirements, except for a competent quarterback. Any team in any system will take that. Joe Flacco is certainly a competent QB. You don’t have to worry about missing one guy and the system failing because of it."

 

and

 

"You can’t help but shake your head in awe at times when watching guys like Manning and Brady operate. They make it look so easy. They make it look easy because apparently, it is easier in their systems. Brown made mention in his article that a play-call in the Air Coryell system the Ravens run might sound like, “Scatter-Two Bunch-Right-Zip-Fire 2 Jet Texas Right-F Flat X-Q.” In the EP system, one word the Patriots use is “ghost” which a two man route combination, or “tosser” which is a three man route combination. That’s how these up tempo offense operate so smoothly. Brady is coming to the line shouting just two words, and everyone knows what they’re doing. It’s so much easier for the players to memorize, enabling them to get on the same page faster if unexpectedly called upon"

 

and

 

"The E-P system is a simple one. Take what the defense will give you. You can be a power running team one week, a spread out air raid offense the next, a balanced attack that keeps teams guessing the week after that.  You can put up points in a hurry, or slow the pace down to a crawl. It doesn’t need specific personnel. Since specific types of players aren’t required, it opens up more possibilities when drafting players or signing free agents."

 

and then I found this

https://247sports.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/Board/102967/Contents/Erhardt-Perkins-Offensive-Philosophy-70429781

 

"No one asked, but I would vote for Erhardt-Perkins because it's easier to learn, and you get different looks without changing the reads. It's also easier to make changes at the line of scrimmage, which is good if you want an up-tempo style.

 

Mike McCoy, brought it to the Chargers last year, and got a playoff season with Tim Tebow using it in Denver."

 

So it made me look up how McDaniels was using it in Denver with Tebow... the descriptions in these 2 articles use Orton as the intended QB, but Tebow would take over in week 5 and lead the team to a 7-5 record in the rest of his starts and a playoff win

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/fat-camp-the-erhardt-perkins-offense-part-

 

"The EP is particularly known for using a lot of trapping and pulling by the offensive line. A dedication to running the ball was a traditional part of the system"

 

and

 

"The EP has often been linked with the Air Coryell offense to combine the aggression of a powerful running game with the constant threat to the defense of a deep pass. It’s a system that’s based in an aggressive, hostile take-no-prisoners approach to the game"

 

and

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/fat-camp-the-erhardt-perkins-offense-part-2

 

"McDaniels did in setting up his own preferences with some pretty standard EP principles - motion on the OL and both pulling and trapping, with aggressive run formations and scheme and a power running game that also protects the QB. "

and

 

"In terms of passing, the EP commonly uses a Coryell-based vertical passing attack that creates the time for those plays to develop (among other options) by freezing the D momentarily with play-action passing. Orton is particularly good there, and that may give him time to work through his progressions, which he can be slow at sometimes."

 

 

Plenty more to read about. I don't think Tyrod is in any long term plans because I'm convinced we're going to draft a QB in the 1st. I don't think we're going to make a run at Cousins because of the cost and fact that he's never going to likely be better than a fringe top 10 QB. I don't think we make a run at Smith because he's really just not much better than Tyrod and we'd have to trade for him, though given McDermott's relationship with Reid it's certainly possible. I think this staff wants "their guy" to draft and groom and mold. And the rookie might just be thrust in as the starter right away. Who knows? Regardless of who our QB is, I'm really excited to see Dabol's iteration of this system because it appears to be a system a QB can have pretty immediate success with  

 

One of Tyrod's biggest weaknesses is his inability to execute play action ball fakes under center.  It really limits your offense from a misdirection standpoint.

[ColoradoBills]

13 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Still disagree.

 

The biggest knock regarding Taylor has been going through his progressions post snap. This system makes all the post snap stuff much easier for the QB because it sets the QB up with knowledge pre snap of precisely where his guys will be on every play and the system seems largely predicated on knowing where you're going with the ball before the snap. When Taylor has known where he's going with the football before the snap, he's been pretty decisive and accurate. When that 1st read is taken away, as that first article discusses, the WCO and Coryell systems might have different routes in different places on any given play whereas this system seems to set it up so guys are consistently in the same places depending on the passing concept, for which there can be as few or as many as an OC wants to include.

 

That's the way I understand it, at least.

 

Transplant, you are correct with TT's evaluation but you are missing 1 very important QB trait that separates average and below from better than average and great.

TT has not proven he can change/modify a play PRESNAP.  To me it is one of his weakest traits.

 

The E-P system is run great by Brady because he is a master of the presnap and the system allows him to change 1/2 of the play very easily.

He can KILL KILL (1 of the 2 word play) and change that side from what he sees the D doing.

 

I truly believe TT goes to line and keeps a play that is doomed to fail.  If he was doing that because Dennison said that is what I want you to do, well I don't buy that.

I think TT does not read a D presnap very well and he cannot adjust with any favorable results.

 

This is one of the main reasons I want to move on from TT this coming year and not go thru this for 16 more games.

[transplantbillsfan]

47 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

One of Tyrod's biggest weaknesses is his inability to execute play action ball fakes under center.  It really limits your offense from a misdirection standpoint.

 

Ummm... what??? Have you actually watched Taylor play?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/billswire.usatoday.com/2017/10/02/bills-film-room-tyrod-taylor-play-action-falcons/amp/

Bills film room: Tyrod Taylor torched Falcons with play action passes

[transplantbillsfan]

32 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Transplant, you are correct with TT's evaluation but you are missing 1 very important QB trait that separates average and below from better than average and great.

TT has not proven he can change/modify a play PRESNAP.  To me it is one of his weakest traits.

 

The E-P system is run great by Brady because he is a master of the presnap and the system allows him to change 1/2 of the play very easily.

He can KILL KILL (1 of the 2 word play) and change that side from what he sees the D doing.

 

I truly believe TT goes to line and keeps a play that is doomed to fail.  If he was doing that because Dennison said that is what I want you to do, well I don't buy that.

I think TT does not read a D presnap very well and he cannot adjust with any favorable results.

 

This is one of the main reasons I want to move on from TT this coming year and not go thru this for 16 more games.

 

Well the problem is we don't know what the heck TT was allowed to change or not change pre-snap.

 

You can refuse to buy the what Dennison did or did not tell Taylor he could or could not do to change a play, but we had quotes mid season that audible abilities were limited for Taylor by Dennison.

 

And before everyone just wildly assumes that all other NFL QBs have free reign at audibles, even 1st ballot HOFers can be limited by a stubborn OC.

 

After the Steelers loss last week there was the obvious question of why not run a QB sneak on 4th and short. Big Ben said  "It's been a while since we've run the quarterback sneak, I'm for it, but it's kinda over my head why we don't do it. I'm not going to second guess why we don't run the quarterback sneak. I don't know."

 

I also heard a snippet of him on a radio show this week that it's not even possible for him to do it at the line because the verbiage isn't even there to communicate it to the other 10 guys on offense.

[Foxx]

4 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Well the problem is we don't know what the heck TT was allowed to change or not change pre-snap.

 

You can refuse to buy the what Dennison did or did not tell Taylor he could or could not do to change a play, but we had quotes mid season that audible abilities were limited for Taylor by Dennison.

 

And before everyone just wildly assumes that all other NFL QBs have free reign at audibles, even 1st ballot HOFers can be limited by a stubborn OC.

 

After the Steelers loss last week there was the obvious question of why not run a QB sneak on 4th and short. Big Ben said  "It's been a while since we've run the quarterback sneak, I'm for it, but it's kinda over my head why we don't do it. I'm not going to second guess why we don't run the quarterback sneak. I don't know."

 

I also heard a snippet of him on a radio show this week that it's not even possible for him to do it at the line because the verbiage isn't even there to communicate it to the other 10 guys on offense.

in 3 years, Tyrod made how many audibles, exactly?

'nuff said.....

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Well the problem is we don't know what the heck TT was allowed to change or not change pre-snap.

 

You can refuse to buy the what Dennison did or did not tell Taylor he could or could not do to change a play, but we had quotes mid season that audible abilities were limited for Taylor by Dennison.

 

And before everyone just wildly assumes that all other NFL QBs have free reign at audibles, even 1st ballot HOFers can be limited by a stubborn OC.

 

After the Steelers loss last week there was the obvious question of why not run a QB sneak on 4th and short. Big Ben said  "It's been a while since we've run the quarterback sneak, I'm for it, but it's kinda over my head why we don't do it. I'm not going to second guess why we don't run the quarterback sneak. I don't know."

 

I also heard a snippet of him on a radio show this week that it's not even possible for him to do it at the line because the verbiage isn't even there to communicate it to the other 10 guys on offense.

 

...............and Dennison is gone. 

Having a QB who will not change out of a play, for whatever reason, is not a QB I wish to have running my team.

Maybe if he took the initiative to do that he would have a long term contract with the Bills. 

 

I backed TT for 2 1/2 years but the 'experiment" is over for me.  He is who he is and for me it's not good enough.

I know you want TT here this year no matter what.  I do not.

 

As for the Pittsburg Steelers and their QB and OC (who is gone), I don't care what they do.

[BringBackOrton]

36 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Ummm... what??? Have you actually watched Taylor play?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/billswire.usatoday.com/2017/10/02/bills-film-room-tyrod-taylor-play-action-falcons/amp/

Bills film room: Tyrod Taylor torched Falcons with play action passes

Ummm, Tyrod barely had any PA passes under center his first two years, and not that many in his third year, to my eye.

[BADOLBILZ]

14 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Tyrod's issues reading defenses are pre and post snap. He just isn't very good at it.

 

Believe me in the Dennison offense he knew where guys were going to be. That offense is as close as it gets in the NFL to paint by numbers. The receivers' routes are linked to the Quarterback's feet. It is all rhythm and timing if your footwork is right and the ball is out on time the receiver will be in a spot. Now the failure in that scheme wasn't all on Tyrod. Our receivers were bad (I'd have fired the WR coach before anyone) at hitting their spots but the ball wasn't out on time too often anyway. Tyrod's best game was week 3 vs Denver.... he was getting the ball out on time that day in the rhythm of the offense and everything was clicking. The rest of the year he would have known where receivers ought to be but he still wasn't decisive. 

 

The E-P will not provide greater certainty on where receivers will be. It allows receivers to make adjustments by reading the coverage themselves. You need a Quarterback and receiver in sync and on the same page so that those quick decisions become 2nd nature. Think Brady and Welker / Edelman.

 

You are entitled to disagree, of course, but I was right about Tyrod's fit with Dennison. If we get chance to see it I suspect I will be right about his fit with Daboll too.

 

 

 

Man......I remember in past Buffalo installs the west coast offense "took 3 years to master" and now it's "paint by numbers".

 

So much of the Bills offensive struggles were the result of a lack of receiver/QB familiarity.

 

The offense was certainly not a best fit scenario for Taylor........but when they dumped Watkins I knew the passing game was going to be a complete sh*t show.

 

It's telling to me that he kept feeding Zay Jones whenever he was on the field.........despite how reliably bad Jones was........because that was the guy he at least practiced with prior to the season.   !@#$ing KB was still lining up in the wrong spot in the Dolphins and Jags games for chrissake.

 

 

[eball]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Man......I remember in past Buffalo installs the west coast offense "took 3 years to master" and now it's "paint by numbers".

 

So much of the Bills offensive struggles were the result of a lack of receiver/QB familiarity.

 

The offense was certainly not a best fit scenario for Taylor........but when they dumped Watkins I knew the passing game was going to be a complete sh*t show.

 

It's telling to me that he kept feeding Zay Jones whenever he was on the field.........despite how reliably bad Jones was........because that was the guy he at least practiced with prior to the season.   !@#$ing KB was still lining up in the wrong spot in the Dolphins and Jags games for chrissake.

 

 

 

Who knows...they may surprise us all and keep Tyrod, draft a QB high, and have faith Daboll will fix the run game and bring some semblance of competence to the pass game.

 

Edit:  and I think Zay is going to be very good, and we'll see the real KB next season.

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by eball

[BringBackOrton]

35 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Who knows...they may surprise us all and keep Tyrod, draft a QB high, and have faith Daboll will fix the run game and bring some semblance of competence to the pass game.

 

Edit:  and I think Zay is going to be very good, and we'll see the real KB next season.

 

The real KB is a guy who could barely scrape 1000 yards together with Cam Newton throwing him the football.  He has a unique skillset, don't get me wrong, but he does have his limitations.  I'm not convinced he'll be anything more than the #20ish or lower WR in the NFL. 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, jmc12290 said:

Ummm, Tyrod barely had any PA passes under center his first two years, and not that many in his third year, to my eye.

 

You want to argue he didn't do it much now?

 

Dude, you just said "inability to execute" in the post I responded to.

 

Are you now changing your argument because you were dead wrong?

 

That assertion that I initially made is wrong because Tyrod has been most effective out of play action from under center over his 3 years as a Bill. There are stats out there that support that. I know last offseason that Cover1.net had those numbers pretty comprehensively fleshed out.

 

It's just really weird if you actually believed that. 

 

2 hours ago, Foxx said:

in 3 years, Tyrod made how many audibles, exactly?

'nuff said.....

 

Don't know, do you?

 

This is a pointless argument, anyway. If Tyrod is gone I really don't care as long as we upgrade.

 

If Tyrod is still under center in 2018 I think some of you guys are going to jump off a cliff.

[Foxx]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

... Don't know, do you?

 

This is a pointless argument, anyway. If Tyrod is gone I really don't care as long as we upgrade.

 

If Tyrod is still under center in 2018 I think some of you guys are going to jump off a cliff.

i can't recall a single instance, can you?

 

the thing I want to know is, if he is gone, are you going to take the Tyrod poster off the ceiling over your bed?

Edited January 20, 2018 by Foxx

[transplantbillsfan]

2 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

...............and Dennison is gone. 

Having a QB who will not change out of a play, for whatever reason, is not a QB I wish to have running my team.

Maybe if he took the initiative to do that he would have a long term contract with the Bills. 

 

I backed TT for 2 1/2 years but the 'experiment" is over for me.  He is who he is and for me it's not good enough.

I know you want TT here this year no matter what.  I do not.

 

As for the Pittsburg Steelers and their QB and OC (who is gone), I don't care what they do.

 

Well you're just going to have a conversation with yourself, apparently, because it doesn't seem like you're even reading what I say.

 

Enjoy your offseason. For your health's sake I hope Tyrod isn't back next year, even though I think this hire makes it more rather than less likely.

2 minutes ago, Foxx said:

i can't recall a single instance, can you?

 

the thing I want to know is, if he is gone, are you going to take the Tyrod poster off the ceiling over your bed?

 

Never put it up. Wife wouldn't let me

[KW95 - JA17]

On 1/15/2018 at 3:47 PM, billspro said:

Looks like a modern passing attack to me. We have been waiting for a good passing game for so long. 

 

Tyrod is chomping at the bit!

[JaCrispy]

2 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Well you're just going to have a conversation with yourself, apparently, because it doesn't seem like you're even reading what I say.

 

Enjoy your offseason. For your health's sake I hope Tyrod isn't back next year, even though I think this hire makes it more rather than less likely.

While I disagree with you on Tyrod, there is something admirable about your unwavering support 

[Deranged Rhino]

1 minute ago, KW95 said:

 

Tyrod is chomping at the bit!

 

*champing at the bit. Horses champ, they don't chomp at the bit. 

 

(ducks and runs)

[KW95 - JA17]

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

*champing at the bit. Horses champ, they don't chomp at the bit. 

 

(ducks and runs)

 

Thanks for the correction...but...

 

BOOM:

 

The idiom is usually written chomping at the bit, and some people consider this spelling wrong. But chomp can also mean to bite or chew noisily (though chomped things are often eaten, while champed things are not), so chomp at the bit means roughly the same as champ at the bit.

In fact, chomp, which began as a variant of champ, is alive in English while the biting-related sense of champ is dead outside this idiom, so it’s no wonder that chomping at the bit is about 20 times as common as champing at the bit on the web. Champing at the bit can sound funny to people who aren’t familiar with the idiom or the obsolete sense of champ, while most English speakers can infer the meaning of chomping at the bit.

[Foxx]

8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Well you're just going to have a conversation with yourself, apparently, because it doesn't seem like you're even reading what I say.

 

Enjoy your offseason. For your health's sake I hope Tyrod isn't back next year, even though I think this hire makes it more rather than less likely.

 

Never put it up. Wife wouldn't let me

just curious here...

 

what has Tyrod ever done to make you believe he would excell in an offense that most likely will require the QB to read the defense pre-snap?

 

i remember this time last year when most of BBmB was saying how Tyrod was going to excell in the WCO, while i was close to the lone dissenting voice saying there was no way in hell Tyrod would excell in a timing offense.

 

smh

Edited January 20, 2018 by Foxx

[BringBackOrton]

24 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You want to argue he didn't do it much now?

 

Dude, you just said "inability to execute" in the post I responded to.

 

Are you now changing your argument because you were dead wrong?

 

That assertion that I initially made is wrong because Tyrod has been most effective out of play action from under center over his 3 years as a Bill. There are stats out there that support that. I know last offseason that Cover1.net had those numbers pretty comprehensively fleshed out.

 

It's just really weird if you actually believed that. 

 

 

Don't know, do you?

 

This is a pointless argument, anyway. If Tyrod is gone I really don't care as long as we upgrade.

 

If Tyrod is still under center in 2018 I think some of you guys are going to jump off a cliff.

Feel free to waste your time arguing semantics.  I was commenting on his body of work, not a handful of plays.