Chandler#81 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Now for the discussion part. It’s not an overly optimistic highlight reel. He was clearly great in college and Beane wanted this dimension for the team. However, for a pass catching TE, he had numerous drops and very rarely broke tackles. His TD production was -in a word, disappointing. But the pure talent was on display for most of the season. With Knox taking a pay cut recently, Dalton is now clearly TE1. But he can and needs to improve. He is a willing blocker though his relatively slight frame doesn’t scare anyone and is more of a ‘get in the way’ type blocker than physical blocker. While he made numerous eye-popping catches, he underwhelmed in contested catches where his size should have been a benefit. He displays deft footing but he doesn’t use this to break tackles when defenders dive at his lower legs. It was obvious by seasons’ end that if a defender was closing in on him, he was going to be tackled -even though there were opportunities to challenge the tackler with changing speed or direction, stiff arming or lowering his shoulder -something Knox is proficient at. I’m hoping these were discussed with him in his end of season meeting with coaches as aspects he needs to improve on. Bulking up a bit is essential, but also hand fighting, better body control to fend off would-be tacklers near him and more gumption/desire to finish the play in the Endzone. Yes, he set team records for catches by a TE and quickly became a starter. But to know the full history of the team, is to know TE has always been an afterthought. I can count on 1 hand our very best TE’s, from Warlick to -well, Knox.. The potential is certainly there, but the necessary upgrades to his skills are on him to develop. To me, he’s kinda like a ‘golly gee! This is great playing in the NFL!’ kid. I’d like to see more of a determined approach to his craft to realize his capabilities at this level. He isn’t there yet. What say you? 1 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Now do Sam Laporta. His team didn't need to use a 1st round pick on a TE. Bills could have waited until round 2 and still had the best TE in the draft because TE isn't an important position Oh sorry, he's a "slot receiver like a big Cole Beasley." I forgot. 9 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerBillsFan Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Please God let Beane hit on a WR like he did with Kincaid. 6 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanmiamioh Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Simply being reliable catching the ball is a welcome addition to the current receiving corps. I think he had a very good rookie year and will continue to get better. 11 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 As rookies go Kincaid had a very productive year. He is going have close to 100 catches and 1,000 yards every year. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irv Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Kincaid makes Knox unneeded. 2 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJB Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 6 minutes ago, Irv said: Kincaid makes Knox unneeded. Knox was terribly overpaid the moment he signed that contract . 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddaryl Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 About an 80% catch target ratio Not shabby for a rookie Shakir also was about 80% Gabe never hit 60% in his career 2 1 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Yes...areas to improve, but Dalton Kincaid is not on my offseason worry list. 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 24 minutes ago, Irv said: Kincaid makes Knox unneeded. Not when you want to pound the ball like we did in many games last season. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 15 minutes ago, Wizard said: Yes...areas to improve, but Dalton Kincaid is not on my offseason worry list. Agreed….but he must add some mass. @Chandler#81 discusses Kincaid not breaking tackles and I think strength is the main culprit behind his lack of BTK. He looked to take pounding when he did lower his shoulder in the regular season. I was worried about injuring and was actively rooting for him to avoid hard contact. Hopefully an offseason in the weight room will give the kid the strength he needs to break more tackles. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaenon Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 If we asked you to sign up to have his 2023 stat line that he finished the year with at the time he drafted...I think most everyone would've. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Firebaugh Kid Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I’m honestly baffled that somebody has a negative take on Dalton Kincaid. This kid looks fantastic. I think he’s going to explode in year two. 38 minutes ago, DJB said: Knox was terribly overpaid the moment he signed that contract . I love Knox but he always appears slightly uncoordinated to me. 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkirk Donski Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 11 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said: I’m honestly baffled that somebody has a negative take on Dalton Kincaid. This kid looks fantastic. I think he’s going to explode in year two. I love Knox but he always appears slightly uncoordinated to me. Didnt we draft him for his "athleticism" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbeard Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 hour ago, KDIGGZ said: Now do Sam Laporta. His team didn't need to use a 1st round pick on a TE. Bills could have waited until round 2 and still had the best TE in the draft because TE isn't an important position Oh sorry, he's a "slot receiver like a big Cole Beasley." I forgot. Great take Mr. Hindsight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 53 minutes ago, ddaryl said: About an 80% catch target ratio Not shabby for a rookie Shakir also was about 80% Gabe never hit 60% in his career Gabe's ADOT was 15 yards. Shakir's was 8.9 and Kincaid's was 6. Gabe's role was much different than both of those guys so I would expect his catch percentage to be lower but admittedly it probably shouldn't have been as low as it was. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfronts Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) He needs to muscle up a bit and he will get a lot more YAC. This guy would have been a monster back in the steroid days of football Edited March 21 by Coldfronts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said: Now for the discussion part. It’s not an overly optimistic highlight reel. He was clearly great in college and Beane wanted this dimension for the team. However, for a pass catching TE, he had numerous drops and very rarely broke tackles. His TD production was -in a word, disappointing. But the pure talent was on display for most of the season. With Knox taking a pay cut recently, Dalton is now clearly TE1. But he can and needs to improve. He is a willing blocker though his relatively slight frame doesn’t scare anyone and is more of a ‘get in the way’ type blocker than physical blocker. While he made numerous eye-popping catches, he underwhelmed in contested catches where his size should have been a benefit. He displays deft footing but he doesn’t use this to break tackles when defenders dive at his lower legs. It was obvious by seasons’ end that if a defender was closing in on him, he was going to be tackled -even though there were opportunities to challenge the tackler with changing speed or direction, stiff arming or lowering his shoulder -something Knox is proficient at. I’m hoping these were discussed with him in his end of season meeting with coaches as aspects he needs to improve on. Bulking up a bit is essential, but also hand fighting, better body control to fend off would-be tacklers near him and more gumption/desire to finish the play in the Endzone. Yes, he set team records for catches by a TE and quickly became a starter. But to know the full history of the team, is to know TE has always been an afterthought. I can count on 1 hand our very best TE’s, from Warlick to -well, Knox.. The potential is certainly there, but the necessary upgrades to his skills are on him to develop. To me, he’s kinda like a ‘golly gee! This is great playing in the NFL!’ kid. I’d like to see more of a determined approach to his craft to realize his capabilities at this level. He isn’t there yet. What say you? I say you've taken an overly pessimistic view, in several respects. He had 670 yards in receptions, which was right around where I expected him to be. That's a nice total for a rookie, especially for a tight end. A rookie wideout who starts has an opportunity for some chunk plays that a tight end doesn't get. So, I'd say his production was pretty good, and I expect it will improve. Next, I'd say that "he rarely broke tackles" is unfair. A large number of his catches were essentially dumpoffs over the middle where he was surrounded by defenders. He's not a big guy who's going to drag those tacklers. Still, he always goes down going forward, and he gets just about all the yards he can. He had several plays where he made a move to avoid a tackler and get extra yards, and in particularly he made several to get the first down. He's not a great open field runner, but he gets ahead in space before he goes down. Drops. I agree about that. He's excellent when he's open, but he isn't so good on contested catches. In a crowd, he doesn't seem to come down with it as often as he should. One thing that was apparent was how often Allen's throws were off target. Some of his drops really were throws where Allen missed the market, and some of his best catches also were on inaccurate throws. I agree about bulking up. He looks like he could carry another ten pounds, and then would make him tougher to bring down. I wouldn't call him a disappointment at all. However, if he's never better than he was as a rookie, I will be disappointed. My hope for 2024 is that Brady will have a creative passing attack with Diggs, Samuel, and Shakir attacking all over the field, short and long, and with Kincaid finding plenty of holes as the defenders chase the speed guys. 3 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 hour ago, Irv said: Kincaid makes Knox unneeded. I disagree some with some of what Chandler posted, but he's right that Kincaid is not an impressive blocker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julian Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I totally forget Kincaid at times when thinking about the offense next year, that’s how good the rookie was, I just assume 1K yards 6-10 TDs next year as he gets comfortable with what defenses around the league are trying to do to him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I like the way Brady started using him later in the year. Early in the year, those OTB check-downs, literally anyone can do that stuff. You play to Kincaid's strengths by using him down the seam and on the Y cross stuff, which is what Brady started doing. So I have super high hopes. Kincaid is a dude. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweats Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 We've basically only used him for dump-offs or as an outlet, so it's hard to see the full extent of what he can do on the field, however, the FO has a gem on their hands and they should figure out how to implement him more into our O. Also, i doubt Kincaid will ever be an offensive focal point, such as a Gronk, a Kelce, a Kittle, etc..... but with more development, he should come into his own and be a plyer that teams will definitely have to game plan for every week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strive_for_five_guy Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I wouldn’t call that a “highlight” reel for Kincaid, whoever produced the video had a bunch of his ho-hum outlet catches, tipped passes, etc. Ignoring the horribly produced video, Kincaid dropping passes is one of the least of my worries, thought he showed some of the most reliable hands we’ve seen in forever. A couple things I’d like to see more of in year two include added strength (so he can become more effective as a blocker and with the ball), along with more downfield passes to him, like the seam route versus Pittsburgh. Give the guy the chance to make some bigger plays. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephilim17 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) A little shocked to see the OP was very critical of Dalton. I thought he had a great rookie year. Is he a tackle-busting machine? No, not yet. And maybe he will never be. But he gets open and gets YAC. The YAC should not be forgotten given how little we've seen it here from all receivers. After a record-setting year — yes, the bar for TEs in Buffalo is low, but he was only a rookie — I have expectations that he will be a top 7 or 8 TE this year and a top-5 TE by year 3. Edited March 21 by Nephilim17 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said: Now for the discussion part. It’s not an overly optimistic highlight reel. He was clearly great in college and Beane wanted this dimension for the team. However, for a pass catching TE, he had numerous drops and very rarely broke tackles. We see from the record, that he had 4 drops on 91 targets (comparison: Knox as rookie 10 drops on 50 targets; Shakir as rookie 2 drops on 20 targets) He had an 80% catch rate. I don't understand how that gets described as "numerous drops". If you're catching 80% as a rookie, that's, like, Good. Also from the record, 46% of his yards, were YAC. So he may be avoiding/breaking more tackles than you think. 2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said: He is a willing blocker though his relatively slight frame doesn’t scare anyone and is more of a ‘get in the way’ type blocker than physical blocker. Agree completely here. We had a number of run plays or screens blown up where Kincaid was asked to block in-line and just straight-out whiffed. He did a lot better downfield where what's needed is to be in the right place at the right time to just get in the way long enough to prevent the tackle. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddaryl Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 hour ago, Bangarang said: Gabe's ADOT was 15 yards. Shakir's was 8.9 and Kincaid's was 6. Gabe's role was much different than both of those guys so I would expect his catch percentage to be lower but admittedly it probably shouldn't have been as low as it was. I prefer the football moves down field. I'd rather takle the nickel dime stuff that moves the chains and keeps drives alive. Gabe to me was pretty 1 dimensional and it hurt us. I believe in taking some shots downfield but it has to come from receivers that can excell in other parts of the field as well IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirAndrew Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 As others pointed out, most of Kincaid’s “issues” have more to do with the way he was used in this offense. I know this opinion isn’t very popular, but Dorsey and Brady were quite similar. Neither OC figured how to use our skill players to their max potential. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein's Dog Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 The 2024 TE room is the anticipated best the Bills have ever had! Kincaid is coming off a sensational rookie year. He is incredibly fluid and has great hands. I think he'll be the best TE the Bills have ever had and that starts in 2024. Nitpicking about his drops is ridiculous, I watched every game, his hands are among the elite to ever play the game. Of course there are things he can improve on, and it's not unreasonable to anticipate that he will. Knox adds an excellent veteran presence with a more rounded TE skill set that includes blocking. Knox was making a case of the best TE the Bills had ever had until Kincaid came along. Knox also brings a great team attitude, from bonding with Josh to concentrating on improving, to pay cuts and restructures, Knox just presents himself as a glue player that I'm glad is on the Bills. Even Morris showed positive signs in his limited action. I don't know if I ever knew who the third TE on the Bills was in prior years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 hour ago, Sweats said: We've basically only used him for dump-offs or as an outlet, so it's hard to see the full extent of what he can do on the field, however, the FO has a gem on their hands and they should figure out how to implement him more into our O. Also, i doubt Kincaid will ever be an offensive focal point, such as a Gronk, a Kelce, a Kittle, etc..... but with more development, he should come into his own and be a plyer that teams will definitely have to game plan for every week. Kincaid’s rookie season was better then all in catches and yards and only Gronk had more Tds…. I know Laporta had an all time type season but Kincaid had a very good season by rookie Te standards. Already has the franchise Te catch record and rookie catch record. He needs to improve but what second year player doesnt? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorspikes51 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I'm not as enthused about him as I'd like to be. I don't know. It would be great if he takes a leap this year and is a Top 5-7 TE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I believe there's an established method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schoolhouserock Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 The way Kincaid catches the ball is… pretty? That video shows smooth hands catch after smooth hands catch. Loved him in the final KC game. The first highlight of that game was Kincaid making an incredibly difficult contested catch that was also at a very clutch moment in that game. I was in attendance and despite already being frozen, it still sent a chill through me. I remember thinking, ‘THAT is exactly why the Bills wanted HIM.’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 46 minutes ago, SirAndrew said: As others pointed out, most of Kincaid’s “issues” have more to do with the way he was used in this offense. I know this opinion isn’t very popular, but Dorsey and Brady were quite similar. Neither OC figured how to use our skill players to their max potential. I am hopeful that Brady being able to install his own “play book” that scheming players open and the like happens far more frequently, 🤞 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorspikes51 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 minute ago, Don Otreply said: I am hopeful that Brady being able to install his own “play book” that scheming players open and the like happens far more frequently, 🤞 That would be great. Not sure I have confidence in him to do it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said: I like the way Brady started using him later in the year. Early in the year, those OTB check-downs, literally anyone can do that stuff. You play to Kincaid's strengths by using him down the seam and on the Y cross stuff, which is what Brady started doing. So I have super high hopes. Kincaid is a dude. This is my take as well. The way he was used was different with Brady and made me believe it was Dorsey's asks of him which limited his effectiveness as well as his development. Perhaps Dorsey did not trust him enough to run the deeper and more complex routes? Now it is up to Kincaid to put in the work in the off season on his body, his mechanics and understanding of route concepts. If he does that, I truly believe he will be one of the top 3 TEs next season. There is no reason to believe he won't put in the work - kid looks to be a good dude. Edited March 21 by Fan in Chicago 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigotz Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 3 hours ago, KDIGGZ said: Now do Sam Laporta. His team didn't need to use a 1st round pick on a TE. Bills could have waited until round 2 and still had the best TE in the draft because TE isn't an important position. I really, really hate it when people say stupid things like this. Sam LaPorta was pick #34. Dalton Kincaid was pick #25. Both were very good last year. Let me talk to you about other guys we could have "waited for" who were available by our pick in Round 2 (pick #59). Here are their stats for the entire year: - Luke Schoonmaker (pick 58) - 8 receptions for 65 yards - Brenton Strange (pick 61) - 5 receptions for 35 yards - Tucker Craft (pick 78) - 31 receptions for 355 yards (nice, almost half of what Kincaid got) - Darnell Washington (pick 93) - 7 receptions for 61 yards - Cameron Latu (pick 101) - 0 receptions - Josh Whyle (pick 147) - 9 receptions for 94 yards - Will Mallowry (pick 162) - 18 receptions for 207 yards The rest of the late round guys basically did nothing. SO, tell us again how they could have waited and still gotten the same production. 2 2 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 He needs to catch the balls more in stride. His YAC after was very limited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngbills Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I think stats can be confused with opportunity. I am not saying this is the case with Kincaid but you cant ignore how many of his catches were easy dump-offs that 99.9 % of NFL guys catch. At the end of the year we finally saw more, but for the majority of the season it was very limited. I would argue you can take any NFL talent and they would put up 800+ yard receiving season if given the chance. There are so many plays a D is just willing to give up the 5 yard pass or the D focused on better players so the 3-4 option guys are gonna be open a ton. The difference is some guys are playmakers that can make something special happen out of a 5 yard play. So every time you go to the 5 yard guy, your losing the chance that the better player does something special. So getting Joe Schmo an 800 yard season and Justin Jefferson only 1000 could be viewed as a failure not a look how great a year Joe Schmo had, that OC must be great. Again, not saying Kincaid is in that bucket. But the O stalled quite a bit during the stretch we played the throw to Kincaid for 2 yards and watch him be tackled. I would have preferred I'm stretching the field and opening things up for Diggs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephilim17 Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 17 minutes ago, ganesh said: He needs to catch the balls more in stride. His YAC after was very limited According to @Beck Water, a poster who rarely lies, Kincaid had 46% of his yards after catch. I would guess that's the best on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 49 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said: That would be great. Not sure I have confidence in him to do it Fingers crossed 🤞 I suspect it will happen more than in the recent past, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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