If There's No 12th Defender, is Dorsey Still Employed??

[TheWeatherMan]

41 minutes ago, Behindenemylines said:

I agree.  I think McDermott relied on Josh’s relationship with him to make an easy decision.    Josh through his body language most of this season has realized he made a mistake with Dorsey but couldn’t handle it-Josh seems like he’s a “younger” person than he is.  
 

this has caused tension and lacking energy and his former emotion.  As the QB goes, the team typically goes.

 

 

Agree!  Wonder if this was the point of contention between Josh and Steph.  Josh wanted Dorsey and Diggs did not.  

[Matt_In_NH]

Probably.   With the way the season and that game went, there needed to be a fall guy....the offense really has no excuses, they have the talent and are not injured.   I am ok with moving on from Dorsey but firing him has worked well to deflect from the 12 man penalty that he had nothing to do with.

[UKBillFan]

5 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

McDermott is the "MAIN" culprit? Not the players on the field failing to execute time & time again, or the person constantly giving the opponent extra drives every game?

 

The game shouldn't have even been that close. The Bills shouldn't have been trailing until 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter. The 12 men on the field was just icing on the s*** cake.

 

Well coaching is the main culprit. If it's a one off, or one a season issue, then fine - blame the players. But the coaches have been shown up of being unable to prepare or focus the players for a game over and over - especially on offense. When was the last time everything clicked from the first drive? Dolphins perhaps aside. It feels like this has been an issue going back to the Packers last year. When something keeps happening it goes beyond the players.

[The Wiz]

I'd say 60/40 yes.  This game wasn't on Dorsey because of the poor plays of the offense (fumbles, drops, INTs) and then the defensive and special team issues but his play calling has been bad since London and really hasn't changed or provided any kind of confidence in the offense.

[whorlnut]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

Let’s just say that we had fired Mcdermott rather than Dorsey….who would be the HC?  Dorsey?  Washington?  Kromer?  Shula?  Ehhhhhhh.

 

We’d also need a defensive playcaller/DC.  This is the only move that could be made that would still give us a chance to make a run. Fire McD and the season would’ve been over immediately imo.  
 

 

And the Kincaid drop on 3rd down.  It was equal to a turnover

I understand that and it’s a good point. I guess I should have clarified…I meant after this season. Dorsey was probably just the beginning. 

6 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

McDermott is the "MAIN" culprit? Not the players on the field failing to execute time & time again, or the person constantly giving the opponent extra drives every game?

 

The game shouldn't have even been that close. The Bills shouldn't have been trailing until 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter. The 12 men on the field was just icing on the s*** cake.

McDermott is pretty much the only remaining constant in all this. So at some point he needs to be held accountable. 

[Jeffbigalls]

It means little but the officials made an error and the broncos should have been kicking off to buffalo with 2 seconds

[Buffalo03]

I still think there is a legit shot he isn't. This offense is just broken. It has been all season, it started last year. It wasn't gonna get fixed with him. I think McDermott sort of already had his mind made up before the Broncos game

[Drew21PA]

8 hours ago, whorlnut said:

McD melted in 13 seconds and the ST coach was fired. We lost last year and Frazier is “taking a year off”. We are in a slide this year, and Dorsey is canned. Yet no one is holding the main culprit in all this…McDermott…accountable. It’s a growing trend and I’m not sure how the players can respect the man anymore.

Seeing Josh reaction on sideline I don’t think they are committed anymore to mcdud 

[Solomon Grundy]

9 hours ago, theRalph said:

Though the offensive woes have been chronic, they haven't moved the needle as seismically as 12-men-on-the-field debacle. I'm wondering if Dorsey still has a job had the wide-right stood putting the Bills at 6-4.

 

Dorsey failed when he lost the personnel —Dawson Knox—he needed for 12-personnel. Knox's injury vs. Jaguars started the crappy offensive trend (Knox played two more games but wasn't effective (see the 4th down drop vs. Pats)). Dorsey couldn't adapt to an 11-personnel approach, only being able to muster a predictable 2 X 2 motionless formation. 

 

But none of that has a thing to do with 12 men. Hmmm.

I believe the scapegoat master needed to sacrifice somebody from that debacle. Had Dorsey's offensive schematics hadn't been talked about so badly the past couple of weeks by some pundits, it would've been the special teams coach walking the plank. 12 personnel be damned!! I'm also starting to believe that this offensive philosophy was pushed on Dorsey to justify having Knox and his contract on the roster while drafting Kincaid. Kincaid was that talent the Bills couldn't bypass

[NoSaint]

9 hours ago, theRalph said:

Though the offensive woes have been chronic, they haven't moved the needle as seismically as 12-men-on-the-field debacle. I'm wondering if Dorsey still has a job had the wide-right stood putting the Bills at 6-4.

 

Dorsey failed when he lost the personnel —Dawson Knox—he needed for 12-personnel. Knox's injury vs. Jaguars started the crappy offensive trend (Knox played two more games but wasn't effective (see the 4th down drop vs. Pats)). Dorsey couldn't adapt to an 11-personnel approach, only being able to muster a predictable 2 X 2 motionless formation. 

 

But none of that has a thing to do with 12 men. Hmmm.

Are we pretending week 1 didn’t exist? 
 

 

[Utah John]

9 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

True.  The Cook fumble, Davis drop that led to a tipped int, the two long special team returns, Josh’s INT before half, Josh missing a wide open Shakir on that 4th down, and the botched handoff Allen/Cook fumble left out defense in some tough spots.

All those plays contributed to the loss.  But Dorsey wasn't fired for one loss.  He was fired for being really bad at his job.  Opposing defenses figured out last year how to slow down or stop Josh, and it's the OC's responsibility to figure out how to counter that.  He never has.  Let's see what someone else can do, someone with more experience and fresher ideas.

[Utah John]

Perhaps, reading between the lines, it comes down to whether it was worth blowing another game to yet another weaker opponent (Pats, Jets, almost Giants and Bucs) in a season that's clearly a lost cause, just to get rid of a bad coordinator.  I think it was, as long as this stops the bleeding and lets the team re-find its identity, the feeling it had two or three years ago.  If it doesn't, then Beane needs to fire McDermott at the end of the season, and if Beane won't do that, for Pegula to fire Beane in time for someone competent at drafting to grab the reins.

 

The 2022 or even the 2023 Bills would be 8-2 or better against the schedule they've played, looking ahead to the gauntlet of tough teams and figuring out how to get home field through the playoffs.  Last year's team roared back to steal a game in Baltimore last year.  This year's team, and roaring, don't align.

10 hours ago, theRalph said:

Though the offensive woes have been chronic, they haven't moved the needle as seismically as 12-men-on-the-field debacle. I'm wondering if Dorsey still has a job had the wide-right stood putting the Bills at 6-4.

 

Dorsey failed when he lost the personnel —Dawson Knox—he needed for 12-personnel. Knox's injury vs. Jaguars started the crappy offensive trend (Knox played two more games but wasn't effective (see the 4th down drop vs. Pats)). Dorsey couldn't adapt to an 11-personnel approach, only being able to muster a predictable 2 X 2 motionless formation. 

 

But none of that has a thing to do with 12 men. Hmmm.

Dorsey spent almost all of last year in 11 personnel.  When he DID have a healthy DK1 and DK2 TEs on the field at the same time, he had no idea how to use them, and the Jets stifled Josh and the rest of the offense.  

Edited November 15, 2023 by Utah John

[SoCal Deek]

10 hours ago, whorlnut said:

McD melted in 13 seconds and the ST coach was fired. We lost last year and Frazier is “taking a year off”. We are in a slide this year, and Dorsey is canned. Yet no one is holding the main culprit in all this…McDermott…accountable. It’s a growing trend and I’m not sure how the players can respect the man anymore.

Wow! There’s no way I could’ve said it any better. I’d forgotten those recent examples. Reading the list makes me despise McD even more. He’s completely over his head at the NFL’s level of competition. His skill set as a head coach seems more fitting to a small, private, D3 College somewhere where he can shape the lives of challenged young men and guide them in the ways of The Process….or whatever. 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, BillsMontreal said:

 

Then, it begins to be a lot of coachs who were fired under his program. A lot. 

It say something at whoever wants to listen.

 

Hire and fire coachs until he finds the perfect one is a kind of management but i really think we're near the limit.

 

 

 

Has there been a lot of coaches fired under his regime? I mean at one point they had the most continuity - Head Coach, DC and OC in the entire league. This coaching staff has not had a ton of turnover. I would guess actually for a guy that has been here as long as McDermott has they are under the average in terms of firings.

 

From the 2017 staff 3 guys were fired, 1 retired, the rest retained.

From the 2018 staff 5 were fired, the rest retained.

From the 2019 staff 0 firings, 1 guy left of own accord, otherwise entire staff retained.

From the 2020 staff 0 firings, entire staff retained.

From the 2021 staff 1 firing, 3 departures to the Giants, 1 retired, rest retained.

From the 2022 staff 1 firing, 2 guys left of own accord.

 

In terms of actual firings, even including Dorsey, it is 11 in 6 and a half years. Less than 2 a year. Even if we include the three who left of their own accord (Bill Teerlink, Chad Hall and Leslie Frazier) all of whom it is safe to assume left because of some level of disquiet with the Head Coach over scheme or performance 14 in 6 and a half years would remain well below the average I would think. 

 

 

 

[mjt328]

Ken Dorsey is very obviously the scapegoat.

But that doesn't mean his firing wasn't justified.  

 

Everyone always seem obsessed with finding THE problem.  Like there is a single fix needed, and suddenly everything will run smoothly and we can start planning the Super Bowl parade.  In reality, it's never just a single thing.

 

Dorsey was a terrible offensive coordinator.  Horribly predictable.  No planning or reasoning behind his playcalling.  

But Josh Allen is also a huge problem, and has been trending down for well over a year.  His turnovers and stupid mistakes are killing us.

The defense is good on paper, but crumbles at the worst moments almost every time and can't be counted on for a big stop.

Special teams has quietly become a disaster, and also factored heavily into the Monday Night loss.

 

Sean McDermott ties everything together.  I never believed in firing the guy just for the 13 second mess.  But the mistakes are now compounding, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that he's lost the locker room.  Once that happens, it's only a matter of time.  The Pegulas may be standing by him right now.  But there are still 7 games left, and he's running out of places to point the finger.

 

I don't see Joe Brady suddenly turning the ship around.  There are too many other problems.  I see this team falling flat on its face over the next month, and the Pegulas will be forced to start over with the coaching staff.  

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Dorsey wasn’t good but he got scapegoated. Just like Frazier did. McDermott is throwing everyone over the ship to save himself.

[benderbender]

11 hours ago, theRalph said:

Though the offensive woes have been chronic, they haven't moved the needle as seismically as 12-men-on-the-field debacle. I'm wondering if Dorsey still has a job had the wide-right stood putting the Bills at 6-4.

 

Dorsey failed when he lost the personnel —Dawson Knox—he needed for 12-personnel. Knox's injury vs. Jaguars started the crappy offensive trend (Knox played two more games but wasn't effective (see the 4th down drop vs. Pats)). Dorsey couldn't adapt to an 11-personnel approach, only being able to muster a predictable 2 X 2 motionless formation. 

 

But none of that has a thing to do with 12 men. Hmmm.

I'm assuming Dorsey was the brain trust that thought it was a good idea to use Knox as a decoy, or one-handed blocker, or whatever the hell they thought they could do against professional defenses for multiple games instead of just putting him on IR and healing him up. I assume it was Dorsey because McD doesn't play injured players, especially when season's are on the line (i.e. holding out Hyde in Cincinatti last season, and everyone who was out monday night).

[The Jokeman]

10 hours ago, theRalph said:

Inaccurate.

I'll say this, the Bills did more to lose this game than the Broncos did to win it. 

[skibum]

Who knows, who cares - but can we please stop acting like the 12 men on the field thing was even among the top-10 reasons for this loss? 

[jkeerie]

11 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Absolutely.  Odd scapegoat after your offense gives you the lead only for your defense and special teams to eff it up.

But as Josh said post game it never should have come down to that.  The D was getting stops...giving up only 6 points on 4 turnovers and short fields.  Our offense wasn't able to move the ball.  When we finally did...running the ball...that approach is abandoned until later in the game.  Dorsey's play calling is maddening!

[Utah John]

Dorsey acted like the offense was the Josh Allen show, and the entire plan seemed designed to make Allen the star.  That made Allen too easy to stop.  

[nedboy7]

We had the most predictable idiotic offense in the league.  So yes but thank god there was a 12th man. 

[26TrapDraw]

IMHO MCClappy should of had an envelope with a final check in it for our Smiley in the locker Room. Not only did special teams suck all game and all season for that matter  but then that crap at the end of the game. That’s a fireable offense for sure. Cmon Buf ya gotta do better 12 men seriously??!!

busch league 

[Mister Defense]

He would have been fired anyway, in my view.

 

For the first time I can recall in my decades of being a Bills' fan I was hoping they lost, forcing McDermott's hand--and giving the Bills some (small) hope of still salvaging this season.  Dorsey could not beat the good teams coming up, or even the average ones, unless the Bills were almost 100% perfect in execution AND also got lucky. 

 

The Bills went scoreless yet again in the first half, as the players were doing the only thing they could think of, and forcing the issue, as the obstacles Dorsey created were almost insurmountable now.

 

One touchdown in the first half, the Bills having to come back, this time at home, Dorsey was done, and clearly, despite his 'confidence', something McDermott was considering for a while.

[First Round Bust]

a very good question, I dont think the OC gets canned after a win, but the guy was a dead man walking so it was just a matter of time...

 

Its fair to say that coach McD has lost the fanabase as he already had one foot in the grave after the epic 13 seconds fiasco...but the bigger issue is...has he lost the

locker-room...

 

as well...come end of season I dont want Diggs saying...him or me.

 

 

[jethro_tull]

losing the game was the straw that broke the bison's back.   would have happened soon regardless, it was obvious to me.  

[vanislebills44]

his time had come, is is simple...

d has played well enough for us to win every game

you cannot fire the team

[Steptide]

I think McDermott was ready to fire Dorsey after the next loss. Whether it was the broncos, or jets or eagles etc. 

[BuffaloMatt]

Most teams looked like the were the 85 Bears against our offense. No scheme, no plan and predictable. So, yes. It was time. 

[Chaos]

hard to imagine he would have been fired after a win. 
 

But the OCs job in Buffalo is to carry a two TD lead into the second half of the fourth quarter so the head coach is not put under any pressure to make coaching decisions in the final minutes of the game.  So maybe he would have been fired.  
 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Chaos

[BullBuchanan]

17 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Yup, because we get smoked by the Bengals the following week. If by some miracle we survive, the rams embarrass us at the show where we would be outclassed in every facet of the game.

In a totally different season with a different cap, post FA, post draft, post offseason injuries and prep.

I couldn't think of a more meaningless argument.

[QCity]

If there was no 12th man on the field there would be 1,000+ posts here saying "A win is a win" with many still pretending nothing is wrong.

 

But there was a 12th man out there.

And Dorsey is gone.

And a win is only a win until it isn't.