The Athletic: Dorsey's first 25 games as OC equal to Daboll's last 25

[GunnerBill]

40 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I always go back to the TB defense of 2019 - the year before Brady got there. They were second in defensive DVOA yet 29th in points given up. That's because the TB quarterback was a turnover machine and opposing defenses scored an unholy number of defensive touchdowns. It skewed everything. A lot of people looked at the counting stats like points allowed and thought they weren't good, but then lo and behold Brady comes on board and the defense is fantastic statistically the next season with the same players. Hmm -- I wonder why. The Giants offense is the worst in the league (it's not even really close) by pretty much every measure, and they put the Giants D in bad situations all of the time. However, if you actually watch the games, Wink Martindale's approach was the first to flummox Shanahan, and the Niners struggled a bit before putting them away given the horrible offense facing them. They played well against Seattle (the offense was horrible), the Bills, Washington, and the Jets. They had no chance against the Cowboys, who scored early and often because the Giants either turned the ball over or couldn't move it at all. The Giants have had 7 out of 9 games where they've thrown for less than 200 yards and two games where they've thrown for less than 100 (including one game where they threw for -9 yards). Pretty sure @GunnerBill would agree with me about the Giants' D. 

 

Now to be fair, I am frustrated with the offense too -- very frustrated. There are real problems with it. But there is some context that I wasn't properly accounting for, and I'm always willing to change my mind if I become aware of evidence that undercuts my gut reactions.

 

I haven't watched a ton of the Giants this year and Wink is a bit blitz heavy for my tastes but that has always been his way and works for him. And he had a really good plan vs the Bills IMO. Not to give the Bills O a pass. But Wink had the better of Dorsey IMO.

[ngbills]

So they are comparing Daboll with a rookie JA to Dorsey? 

[dave mcbride]

16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So the Bills defense is the reason why the offense isn't scoring?

 

Tampa Bay that year also was 3rd in the league in offensive scoring.  How were they able to score and we aren't?  Our high score in the last 5 games is 24 points.

We had a stretch where we were only scoring like 4 points in the first half on average.  

 

So we aren't an offense that can overcome defensive adversity then it seems.  You're saying our offense is predicated on how the defense plays.  

First off, see the addendum I added to the post you responded to. Secondly, TB scored a lot that season but that was helped in part by the fact that their defense was terrific irrespective of the points allowed. They were fifth in turnovers forced, 3rd in TOP per drive and 6th in yards per drive. They had the number one rushing defense in the league. 

The current version of the Bills D hasn't been able to force a turnover to save its life for a quarter of a season running now and it can't get off the field, dropping to the near-bottom in third down conversion stoppage rates. 

[GoBills808]

been saying this

[Mango]

Somebody texted me today that Fournette said he had never seen an offense as complicated as the Bills and it would take him a few weeks to get up to speed. I tried googling it, but I can't find it anywhere. (if somebody could find it that would be huge)

Treating it as true for now. this is likely where the problem with the offense lies. I am guessing that maybe the play book has expanded quite a bit this year, especially as the season progresses, which is why things seem much less smooth. It makes sense why we are seeing execution errors around a handful of position groups.  Guys are just overwhelmed. Dorsey is over complicating some things. Josh isn't understanding some things. Turns out we can all stop arguing about the problem, because just about everything turns out to be true. 

On the bright side an overcomplicated offense sounds like about the easiest mid-season fix possible. Tear some pages out of the playbook, keep it simple, and hopefully we find some mojo again. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Woah woah, pause a second. 
 

Dabolls first 25 games here came in his THIRD stint as an OC.

 

This is Dorsey’s first. 
 

 

 

they are comparing to Daboll's last 25, not first 25. 

[Royale with Cheese]

16 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

First off, see the addendum I added to the post you responded to. Secondly, TB scored a lot that season but that was helped in part by the fact that their defense was terrific irrespective of the points allowed. They were fifth in turnovers forced, 3rd in TOP per drive and 6th in yards per drive. They had the number one rushing defense in the league. 

The current version of the Bills D hasn't been able to force a turnover to save its life for a quarter of a season running now and it can't get off the field, dropping to the near-bottom in third down conversion stoppage rates. 

 

So basically we can't expect our offense to carry the defense.  Our offense will only be good if our defense is.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So basically we can't expect our offense to carry the defense.  Our offense will only be good if our defense is.  

We are 5-4

The offense is carrying the defense

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So basically we can't expect our offense to carry the defense.  Our offense will only be good if our defense is.  

Not sure why you're opposed to looking at contextual factors rather than relying on a simple black-and-white portrait where the offense is bad and disappointing and nothing else should be considered. Life is more complicated than that.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

We are 5-4

The offense is carrying the defense

 

5-4 and 20 ppg on offense in the last 5 games is great and where we all expected to be at.

 

Luckily our offense kept us in the shootout against the Giants.  They Giants offense kept scoring and we needed to keep up.

Same thing with the Bucs game.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

There is probably some truth to what he's saying but it's no secret the offense is better than the defense. They have a bunch of injuries and need an elite, not a very good, offense to win. 

 

Using Daboll's games as a barometer isn't useful IMO. Daboll built the offense. So Dorsey hasn't completely ***** the offense up, sure. But a simple explanation for the trend is that Josh has become a more consistent decision maker over his last 25 games as he enters his prime and they have a top 5 offense in football because he and Diggs show up to the field on game day. 

 

EPA per play being top 5 over a large sample size is not the same thing as putting teams on their heels, or blowing their doors off before they can get us into a tight game. There is more to these sports than the metrics and being top 5 in efficiency simply won't cut it right now. What would people have said about Manning or Rodgers or Mahomes teams aiming to have the 5th most efficient offense in football? They'd say that's a down year and the team will be in some trouble unless the defense is fantastic. 

 

I think the problem is that they play conservatively because they have a HC who loves his defense and wants to win by getting more out of his whole roster than relying on his stars. There is too much pressure on a ***** defense. It's stubbornness. Now the defense is unreliable, it's on the field all the time, they don't have a huge margin for error, and so losing turnover battles, getting behind in games, is hurting them. They would be much better off with an offense that was utterly fearsome, played fast, and ended games early. They go no huddle for the first half on Sunday and they win. Too many mediocre first halves on offense this year. Need to force other teams out of their comfort zone. These are still human beings out there who do worse when they're tight. They play like the Bills of 2017 lately but they don't have Tyrod Taylor. They have a weapon in Allen that says top 3 offense in the league or you're ***** up. 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Not sure why you're opposed to looking at contextual factors rather than relying on a simple black-and-white portrait where the offense is bad and disappointing and nothing else should be considered. Life is more complicated than that.

Because we don’t have a Tyrod Taylor lead offense with Benjamin, Washington, Jones and Clay as our weapons.  We, in the last 5 games are at that level of scoring.

 

I understand those factors.  With your arguments, you’re telling me that our offense cannot overcome adversity.  
The defense has been decimated by injuries but can’t expect the offense to pick it up?  If we had a slight decrease on offense, yeah, probably expected.  But our offense hasn’t slightly decreased.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

32 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Because we don’t have a Tyrod Taylor lead offense with Benjamin, Washington, Jones and Clay as our weapons.  We, in the last 5 games are at that level of scoring.

 

I understand those factors.  With your arguments, you’re telling me that our offense cannot overcome adversity.  
The defense has been decimated by injuries but can’t expect the offense to pick it up?  If we had a slight decrease on offense, yeah, probably expected.  But our offense hasn’t slightly decreased.

 

 

Again, I have my issues with the offense. But the offense has always feasted point-wise on turnovers. Their D was third in turnovers forced in 2020, third in 2021, and fourth in 2022. 1 turnover in four games just doesn't cut it. All I'm saying is that points are harder to come by on longer fields, and their drive starts are way worse than they were in the first part of the season. It has an effect.

[78thealltimegreat]

4 hours ago, Drew21PA said:

Why not sit down and say

 

we need to win

 

ken go with what works - I don’t give a crap what you want - I want what works and stick to it

 

boom simple solved 

Oh I agree but McDermott seems to want to slow drives down 

[section122]

4 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Not that the analytics models are perfect, but I've felt for quite a while going back to last season that our defense has gotten off too easy. Some, especially on this board, always think it's the offenses job to "win the game". Our defense and McD (even considering the injuries) have been falling off. I think our offense and Josh have plateaued in the current situation. We never add a bonafide #2, we've had a marginal O line and we have a great QB who they're trying to rein in as a runner. The defense has been aging and suffering from missed personnel additions. I also think it's pretty clear that "complimentary football" from McD represents a true lack of confidence in his defense. His level of accountability with his unit hasn't been high enough and blaming the offense is always a built in excuse. Get some damn turnovers defense!

 

To the bolded I have long ascribed to the theory that if the defense holds the opposing offense to 20 or fewer points, they have done their job.  (The league average ppg hasn't been below 20 since 1993).  I have also thought if the offense scores more than 24 they have done their job.

 

Strong heat map vibes I know (if you know you know)

 

By that measure the defense is 5-4 and the offense is also 5-4. 

 

The offense hasn't won a game where the defense didn't do their job but the Giants game sticks out as one where the defense did their job and the Bills won.  Just as easy as you say get some turnovers (flukey and always streaky) I would say the offense needs to score some points.  Add in that the defense is missing 3 of its top players, I think they are doing as well as can be expected.  The offense is lagging and to me at least, seems to be the issue.

 

I'd like to see a more uptempo offense as I think that is the best fix.  When they did that to start the Bucs game, it was the best the Bills looked outside of some 4th quarters.  

[C.Biscuit97]

Come on. This is the definition of a false equivalency. Daboll, who has his faults, took a raw rookie from Wyoming who had accuracy issues and helped mold him into a top 3 qb. Dorsey inherited a top 3 qb. Insanely different 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

8 hours ago, ngbills said:

So they are comparing Daboll with a rookie JA to Dorsey? 

 

No they compare Dabolls last 25 (2nd half of 2020 and all of 2021) to Dorseys first (and only) 25

 

They also took out a couple of games this year when the Bills offense looked real good like the Miami game and think it was the Raider game to compare just the Bills worst games against Dabolls stats and Dorsey still came out better in many categories.

 

The problem is the eye ball test doesn't seem to agree with this article. HOWEVER after reading the article it may be that the offense isn't quite as bad as everyone here thinks.

 

I also think the problem that stats don't show is the streaky-ness of the Bills offense both from game to game and even worse from drive to drive.  Too many quarters they look terrible then get hot and up the build the stats.

[LABILLBACKER]

12 hours ago, BillsFanSD said:

I think the analytics pendulum has swung too far, to the point that people are refusing to see what's right in front of them.

 

Digression.  During Josh Allen's first year, I saw a player who was capable of winning games all by himself.  He was raw and basically uncoached, but he had plays each game that reminded me of people like Steve Young and John Elway.  Yes, I was comparing our first-year QB to two HOFers.  Today it's fashionable for people to pull up Allen's stats from his first couple of years to talk about how "bad" he was back then, but the fact is that if you actually watched the guy play, he was very obviously good, not bad.  He was only bad if you just looked at the stats and never watched any games.  By the eyeball test, this was definitely a guy that we could build around.

 

In 2023, it's not like that.  I know the stats are good, and Allen still makes 2-3 dazzling plays every game.  He didn't turn into a pumpkin after week 4.  But just watching the guy play, it's not the same offense.  He's incredibly reluctant to scramble, he doesn't seem to roll out as much, and it feels like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back.  His accuracy is great and he doesn't air-mail guys anymore, but things are very obviously not clicking.  He looks less like a guy who should be on the cover of Madden and more like a rich man's Phillip Rivers.  

 

I'm saying the stats are wrong of course.  Just that you're missing something if only look at the stats and don't pay attending to what you can see with your own two eyes.  Stats are an important part of the picture, but they're not the whole picture.

This is happening because after the Jets disaster he's now basically been castrated.  You still see him try to be the old Josh but you can see these coaches have absolutely gotten way too deep into his head.  McDorsey has no clue.

[Scott7975]

10 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

First off, see the addendum I added to the post you responded to. Secondly, TB scored a lot that season but that was helped in part by the fact that their defense was terrific irrespective of the points allowed. They were fifth in turnovers forced, 3rd in TOP per drive and 6th in yards per drive. They had the number one rushing defense in the league. 

The current version of the Bills D hasn't been able to force a turnover to save its life for a quarter of a season running now and it can't get off the field, dropping to the near-bottom in third down conversion stoppage rates. 

 

Sorry no.  You can't put all the offensive woes on our defense and starting field position.  

 

Bengals game possessions

start at 25 got a first down by penalty and went 3 and out punt.  

start at 12 2 plays int on our own side of the field

start at 9 3 and out  minus yardage

start at 25 moved the ball but a bogus imo intentional grounding call took us out of FG range and half ended

start at 26 FG

start at 9 3 and out

start at 9 moved the ball but fumbled in their territory

 

Those are all the drives we did not score on and one we did.  Explain to me how field position mattered at all.  If anything it was the offense that couldn't flip the field. Not too mention our punts sucked. Field position doesn't matter if you go 3 and out or turn over the ball anyways.  Most of those our defense made stops by midfield btw.

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Scott7975

[GoBills808]

5 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Come on. This is the definition of a false equivalency. Daboll, who has his faults, took a raw rookie from Wyoming who had accuracy issues and helped mold him into a top 3 qb. Dorsey inherited a top 3 qb. Insanely different 

Dabolls last 25 not first

[uticaclub]

You are comparing Josh's rookie year to now? The Athletic is trash

[Doc Brown]

27 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

You are comparing Josh's rookie year to now? The Athletic is trash

They compared Daboll's last 25 games to Dorsey's first 25 games.  Read the article.

 

[HappyDays]

13 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This is basically saying the Bills offense are not capable of winning shoot outs.

 

Our offense absolutely isn't built for shootouts IMO. Shootouts require explosive plays, not ball control and trying to get into manageable 3rd downs. We have no YAC specialists, no deep catch specialists, very few explosive runs. A lot of our TD drives are 10+ plays long which requires perfect execution more often than not. That is not a shootout offense.

 

If you look at the overall investment of draft picks and free agency spending over the past couple years, our team in theory should be built on the defense and special teams making big plays and winning the field position battle while our offense slowly builds a lead before piling on at the end. That's the style of complementary football that won us blowouts in weeks 2-4. Since then the defense has fallen off a cliff and the clearly undermanned offense just isn't built to go on non-stop 75+ yard TD drives and build up enough of a lead to let the defense off the hook at the end.

 

Our team is built to win games like the Chiefs are winning games this year, but it just isn't happening that way.

[Doc Brown]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Our team is built to win games like the Chiefs are winning games this year, but it just isn't happening that way.

Injuries.  We saw what this team could be in that Miami game.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

7 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Injuries.  We saw what this team could be in that Miami game.

Injuries certainly explain the defensive woes. 

[hondo in seattle]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:04 AM, SoonerBillsFan said:

See this is why I ignore stats.  We have great stats against ****teams and **** stats against good teams and can't win most big games. 

 

McDermott has a losing record still in the playoffs.

Why though?  Why doesn't he tell Sean to pound sand and just do what he wants?  McDermott going to bench Josh?  Yeah I really want to see that lol.  

 

I feel there is something there where Sean has something over Josh to be able to force him to play the way Sean wants 

 

Yep.  McD at 4-5 is one game under .500 in the playoffs.  

 

Andy Reid had a losing record during his first 20 years as a head coach, too.  It doesn't mean he was a bad coach.  Only the very best teams with the best rosters and coaching staffs get to the playoffs.  Every playoff game is, more or less, a tossup.  Even now, having had an elite roster over the past few years, Reid is only .579.   

 

There are a few standout coaches in history who have won over 60% of their playoff games but many good coaches - including ones with rings - hover around the .500 mark.  

 

Of course, I want Sean to do better.  But I'll take his 4-5 record over the 0-0 record of his predecessors.  

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Yep.  McD at 4-5 is one game under .500 in the playoffs.  

 

Andy Reid had a losing record during his first 20 years as a head coach, too.  It doesn't mean he was a bad coach.  Only the very best teams with the best rosters and coaching staffs get to the playoffs.  Every playoff game is, more or less, a tossup.  Even now, having had an elite roster over the past few years, Reid is only .579.   

 

There are a few standout coaches in history who have won over 60% of their playoff games but many good coaches - including ones with rings - hover around the .500 mark.  

 

Of course, I want Sean to do better.  But I'll take his 4-5 record over the 0-0 record of his predecessors.  

His predecessor Rex Ryan is actually 4-2 in the postseason 

 

w Mark Sanchez at QB no less 😂😂

[Since1981]

I’m calling BS!!

 AI, analytics, Blogger, wannabe, gambling data….

 

Bills O does not pass the eye test (or smell test)

Edited November 11, 2023 by Since1981

[Since1981]

22 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Injuries.  We saw what this team could be in that Miami game.

Agree. However, if we had a WR2, we win as Bills lost 3 of last 5, by 1 score

[SoonerBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Yep.  McD at 4-5 is one game under .500 in the playoffs.  

 

Andy Reid had a losing record during his first 20 years as a head coach, too.  It doesn't mean he was a bad coach.  Only the very best teams with the best rosters and coaching staffs get to the playoffs.  Every playoff game is, more or less, a tossup.  Even now, having had an elite roster over the past few years, Reid is only .579.   

 

There are a few standout coaches in history who have won over 60% of their playoff games but many good coaches - including ones with rings - hover around the .500 mark.  

 

Of course, I want Sean to do better.  But I'll take his 4-5 record over the 0-0 record of his predecessors.  

Over the record of his  predecessors?  Who knows what their record would have been if they had Allen?  What would seans be without Allen?  What would an offensive minded HC's be after he replaced Sean while having Allen.

 

We can play this game all day, but it come to an end with this... we aren't progressing, we are regressing with Sean.  And I don't know of many, if totally honest, feel we are winning a superbowl with him as HC.

 

Best guy to turn a floundering team around? Absolutely.  Is he the right guy to get us to the next level?  No, I don't believe so.

 

Good is the enemy of great, and he is good at best, not great.

[BigAl2526]

It is not a fair comparison.  Daboll had to deal with a very raw rookie Josh Allen.  His first 25 games were heavily affected statistically by Allen's lack of development.  I am not among those calling for the head of Dorsey, at least not yet.  He does need to solve the offense's recent lack of dynamism though, and quickly.  I think the tools to do so are present on the team now,

[LABILLBACKER]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:15 AM, finn said:

Agreed. He's not a normal QB. He's more like Elway and Young than Brady and Manning, and I'm concerned that Dorsey and McDermott are trying to make him something he's not. Young once said that when he was playing in the old USFL, he would tell his center to snap the ball over his head once in a while just because he thrived off of broken plays. Allen is the same way. No one is better, in fact. Amazing improvisor, howitzer arm, great vision and anticipation, fantastic runner, big frame, surprising speed...He has the whole package. 

 

But it seems McDermott especially wants a pocket passer. Allen is trying to comply, but he's frustrated by the limitations. The fire isn't there anymore, at least not consistently. I say release the Kraken. Make this offense literally unpredictable. Go on fourth down from everywhere, fake punts and kicks, mix in gimmick plays, reverses, direct RB snaps... Tap into Allen's creativity and let him have fun. In fact, let him call some plays on occasion, not just audibles, either. 

 

I'm here to say that Allen has the potential to be the best QB in NFL history, the real GOAT. But he's got to be freed from the Lilliputians that have him tied to the ground. 

You absolutely cannot force Josh to be someone he's not.  It will prove to be a disaster.  Because of his over hyped performance against the Jets, this staff is egregiously trying to over correct. Which in turn screws with Josh's psyche.  It can't be anymore obvious.  Screw McDermott and his perception of the kind of qb he wants.  He doesn't know the first thing about offense.  Daboll had it right and that's why they locked horns.

[Doc Brown]

7 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You absolutely cannot force Josh to be someone he's not.  It will prove to be a disaster.  Because of his over hyped performance against the Jets, this staff is egregiously trying to over correct. Which in turn screws with Josh's psyche.  It can't be anymore obvious.  Screw McDermott and his perception of the kind of qb he wants.  He doesn't know the first thing about offense.  Daboll had it right and that's why they locked horns.

I think they realized this after the Giants game where we only put up 14 points against a decrepit roster.  The last three games he's back to around where he was last year in terms of rushing attempts and production.  Also, if Josh's psyche is that fragile there's no way we're ever winning a Super Bowl with him.  It's not. 

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

His predecessor Rex Ryan is actually 4-2 in the postseason 

 

w Mark Sanchez at QB no less 😂😂

 

Obviously, I was talking about their records with the Bills.

But that is an interesting point.  Rex has a buffoonish reputation yet he did that.  

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Over the record of his  predecessors?  Who knows what their record would have been if they had Allen?  What would seans be without Allen?  What would an offensive minded HC's be after he replaced Sean while having Allen.

 

We can play this game all day, but it come to an end with this... we aren't progressing, we are regressing with Sean.  And I don't know of many, if totally honest, feel we are winning a superbowl with him as HC.

 

Best guy to turn a floundering team around? Absolutely.  Is he the right guy to get us to the next level?  No, I don't believe so.

 

Good is the enemy of great, and he is good at best, not great.

 

I get the whole good is the enemy of great argument but I'm not sure it applies.

 

Since McD has been here, I have never once felt we had the best roster in the AFC.  So why would we expect a Super Bowl appearance, let alone a win.  The playoffs are a brutal gauntlet.  Getting through it requires a strong roster, a strong coaching staff, good health, and a little bit of luck.  We haven't had all that.  

 

When I look back on McD's tenure, each season he either achieves to the level of the roster or he over-achieves.  Getting us to the playoffs in his first year was a heck of an accomplishment.  The six wins the following season was also a great accomplishment considering we had the lowest cap spending on active players in the league and arguably the worst roster (that was the year Beane started cleaning house).   Last year, given our injuries, we didn't have the roster of a 13-3 team but McD produced 13 wins anyway.  This is the first season when I see McD is winning fewer games than he ought to with the roster he has.  

 

I tend to be in favor of the Steelers model: Find a good coach and stick with him.  They've only had 3 head coaches in the past 50+ years.  That continuity has all sorts of positive consequences.  Position coaches and coordinators want to work for a stable organization.  Players want to play for a stable organization.  With stability, the staff learns from its mistakes and corrects them.  Lessons learned are retained within the organization.  Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't great strategists.  But, with the steadfast support of ownership, they earned six Lombardis.  Over the same time, our reactive approach has netted zero.  

[oldmanfan]

3 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

It is not a fair comparison.  Daboll had to deal with a very raw rookie Josh Allen.  His first 25 games were heavily affected statistically by Allen's lack of development.  I am not among those calling for the head of Dorsey, at least not yet.  He does need to solve the offense's recent lack of dynamism though, and quickly.  I think the tools to do so are present on the team now,

People honestly need to read.  They compared Daboll’s LAST 25 games to Dorsey’s FIRST 25 games.

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You absolutely cannot force Josh to be someone he's not.  It will prove to be a disaster.  Because of his over hyped performance against the Jets, this staff is egregiously trying to over correct. Which in turn screws with Josh's psyche.  It can't be anymore obvious.  Screw McDermott and his perception of the kind of qb he wants.  He doesn't know the first thing about offense.  Daboll had it right and that's why they locked horns.

Tom Brady said he wanted to be coached hard.  Allen doesn’t get an exemption card from being coached.  And you can certainly point out to him easier throws he can take without forcing him to be something he’s not.

 

 

[finn]

6 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You absolutely cannot force Josh to be someone he's not.  It will prove to be a disaster.  Because of his over hyped performance against the Jets, this staff is egregiously trying to over correct. Which in turn screws with Josh's psyche.  It can't be anymore obvious.  Screw McDermott and his perception of the kind of qb he wants.  He doesn't know the first thing about offense.  Daboll had it right and that's why they locked horns.

I wonder if that's what was behind McDermott's "complementary football" comment. I.e., "I told Dorsey to stop to slow down the [effective] tempo because you'll be scoring too fast and my defense will get tired." As a new coordinator, Dorsey might not be able to tell him to f- off. Daboll could, to a degree at least. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

4 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I get the whole good is the enemy of great argument but I'm not sure it applies.

 

Since McD has been here, I have never once felt we had the best roster in the AFC.  So why would we expect a Super Bowl appearance, let alone a win.  The playoffs are a brutal gauntlet.  Getting through it requires a strong roster, a strong coaching staff, good health, and a little bit of luck.  We haven't had all that.  

 

When I look back on McD's tenure, each season he either achieves to the level of the roster or he over-achieves.  Getting us to the playoffs in his first year was a heck of an accomplishment.  The six wins the following season was also a great accomplishment considering we had the lowest cap spending on active players in the league and arguably the worst roster (that was the year Beane started cleaning house).   Last year, given our injuries, we didn't have the roster of a 13-3 team but McD produced 13 wins anyway.  This is the first season when I see McD is winning fewer games than he ought to with the roster he has.  

 

I tend to be in favor of the Steelers model: Find a good coach and stick with him.  They've only had 3 head coaches in the past 50+ years.  That continuity has all sorts of positive consequences.  Position coaches and coordinators want to work for a stable organization.  Players want to play for a stable organization.  With stability, the staff learns from its mistakes and corrects them.  Lessons learned are retained within the organization.  Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't great strategists.  But, with the steadfast support of ownership, they earned six Lombardis.  Over the same time, our reactive approach has netted zero.  

They have had 3 HC because of superbowl wins.  Sean had had support behind measure from the Pegulas and a top 3 QB.

 

The man is not the answer, he is Schottenheimer and Marvin Lewis the 2nd.  I pray Terry figures this out soon as we are wasting, Josh Allen's youth.

[BobbyC81]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:11 AM, 78thealltimegreat said:

I think a major problem is what do the bills want? What type of offense do they want to play? Do they want a quick strike offense or one that will grind out first downs. Until last Sunday I thought they ran it reasonably well but like anything else they reverted to Josh being the whole offense again. 
McDermott and Dorsey need to sit down and figure out once and for all ok this is what I want and go from there.

The best way, I hate to say, is the Belichick Way.  Come up with game plans for each opponent, trying to take advantage of their weaknesses and take away their strengths. I’m 

[SirAndrew]

I don’t love Dorsey, but Daboll is insanely overrated around here. He could be ridiculous in outsmarting himself, but Allen was playing better, and we had guys like Beasley, Brown, and Sanders who could actually catch a football. 

9 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Yep.  McD at 4-5 is one game under .500 in the playoffs.  

 

Andy Reid had a losing record during his first 20 years as a head coach, too.  It doesn't mean he was a bad coach.  Only the very best teams with the best rosters and coaching staffs get to the playoffs.  Every playoff game is, more or less, a tossup.  Even now, having had an elite roster over the past few years, Reid is only .579.   

 

There are a few standout coaches in history who have won over 60% of their playoff games but many good coaches - including ones with rings - hover around the .500 mark.  

 

Of course, I want Sean to do better.  But I'll take his 4-5 record over the 0-0 record of his predecessors.  

That’s fair, but in hindsight I think Reid’s record with McNabb was quite impressive. Andy Reid might have made Donovan McNabb a much better QB than he actually was. It’s also fair to point out that Reid made a Super Bowl appearance his sixth season in Philly, while McDermott is finding ways to lose with Josh Allen at QB in his seventh season as coach. I think McDermott is a really good coach, but not many coaches have Allen either. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by SirAndrew