Craziest stat shown last night's broadcast.

[Mr. WEO]

Since he entered the league in 2018,  Josh Allen has more turnovers than any other player (91).

[Roundybout]

Cool, now show how many touchdowns he has over that time. 

[Big Blitz]

And wins. 

[Bangarang]

It’s been shown on a weekly basis. 
 

Josh throws dumb interceptions a lot and fumbled a lot the first 3ish years of his career.

[GustheDog33]

201 touchdowns, I think.

[strive_for_five_guy]

I’d be curious to see how he ranks on per snap basis, versus the likes of Peterman and other NFL junkies that have essentially worked their way out of enough playing time to lead in a stat like this.

[PBF81]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Since he entered the league in 2018,  Josh Allen has more turnovers than any other player (91).

 

That should probably also be accompanied with what percentage of the offense he's expected to provide.  

 

For example, last night he provided 293 out of 317 total yards, or over 92% of the teams yards.  Our RBs contributed 24 yards on 8 carries.  That's the help and support he's got.  It's pretty close to unimagineable that any QB has provided their team more during that same time period.  

 

I'm not sure that most QBs would do as well in that situation that he's been in for years now under "The Process."  

 

It would be nice to see how he plays with proper coaching.  

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by PBF81

[UKBillFan]

6 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That should probably also be accompanied with what percentage of the offense he's expected to provide.  

 

For example, last night he provided 293 out of 317 total yards, or over 92% of the teams yards.  Our RBs contributed 24 yards on 8 carries.  That's the help and support he's got.  It's pretty close to unimagineable that any QB has provided their team more during that same time period.  

 

I'm not sure that most QBs would do as well in that situation that he's been in for years now under "The Process."  

 

It would be nice to see how he plays with proper coaching.  

 

 

Yeah but apparently he’s lazy…

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That should probably also be accompanied with what percentage of the offense he's expected to provide.  

 

For example, last night he provided 293 out of 317 total yards, or over 92% of the teams yards.  Our RBs contributed 24 yards on 8 carries.  That's the help and support he's got.  It's pretty close to unimagineable that any QB has provided their team more during that same time period.  

 

I'm not sure that most QBs would do as well in that situation that he's been in for years now under "The Process."  

 

It would be nice to see how he plays with proper coaching.  

 

 

I think Allen is 3rd this year behind Hurts and Mahomes for percentage of teams total yards.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Bruffalo]

Guy who has had the team on his shoulders for his entire career also has a lot of INTs. How is this shocking again?

[ngbills]

Which is why you need to go fast tempo with him. If you get 10 possessions and score on 5 you are fine with a turnover or two. But if your going slow and getting 5 possessions with even one turnover your likely scoring two-three Td's max. Which is what is happening. 

[Mr. WEO]

28 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That should probably also be accompanied with what percentage of the offense he's expected to provide.  

 

For example, last night he provided 293 out of 317 total yards, or over 92% of the teams yards.  Our RBs contributed 24 yards on 8 carries.  That's the help and support he's got.  It's pretty close to unimagineable that any QB has provided their team more during that same time period.  

 

I'm not sure that most QBs would do as well in that situation that he's been in for years now under "The Process."  

 

It would be nice to see how he plays with proper coaching.  

 

 

 

 

not unimaginable. 

[PBF81]

18 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I think Allen is 3rd this year behind Hurts and Mahomes for percentage of teams total yards.

 

I just ran the numbers to date for this season.  Unless I made a mathematical error ... 

 

Allen 77.8% 

Mahomes 79.6%

Hurts 74.9%  

 

FWIW 

 

I was referring to generally speaking over the past say four seasons or so.  

 

 

[stinky finger]

40 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Since he entered the league in 2018,  Josh Allen has more turnovers than any other player (91).

Now you’re just trying to make me feel good. 

[PBF81]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

not unimaginable. 

 

Off the top of your head, which ones do you think have provided more, or there's a good chance that they've provided more?  I'll run the numbers.  

 

Mahomes maybe, .  To start, it has to be teams with poor running games, and I'm guessing with average or better QBs.  

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by PBF81

[MPT]

They show this stat every game and fail to mention he also has the most TDs of any player in the league in that time. He has also been our most productive running back in that span so he'll have more fumbles on his stat sheet than most QBs just on sheer volume.

 

This year, he has one more interception than Hurts and Mahomes and more TDs than either of them.

Edited November 6, 2023 by MPT

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Since he entered the league in 2018,  Josh Allen has more turnovers than any other player (91).

How many games has Allen missed over those 5 plus seasons?  FOUR.  So maybe, just maybe Allen has had more snaps then any other player to.

 

 

[Returntoglory]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

That should probably also be accompanied with what percentage of the offense he's expected to provide.  

 

For example, last night he provided 293 out of 317 total yards, or over 92% of the teams yards.  Our RBs contributed 24 yards on 8 carries.  That's the help and support he's got.  It's pretty close to unimagineable that any QB has provided their team more during that same time period.  

 

I'm not sure that most QBs would do as well in that situation that he's been in for years now under "The Process."  

 

It would be nice to see how he plays with proper coaching.  

 

 

That's the play calling prowess of our OC ( AND HC).

[Mr. WEO]

24 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Off the top of your head, which ones do you think have provided more, or there's a good chance that they've provided more?  I'll run the numbers.  

 

Mahomes maybe, .  To start, it has to be teams with poor running games, and I'm guessing with average or better QBs.  

 

 

 

 

Mahomes (as you pointed out), Hurts and throw in Jackson, whos' typically in the 70's or so--the differences are insignificant and therefore it's easily imaginable.

 

Your premise is faulty--it doesn't have to do with the "Offense he is expected to provide".  Allen's INT% alone is higher than Mahomes, Jackson or Hurts---or Cousins (who accounted for 75% of Vikings yards last year) or....

 

 

6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

How many games has Allen missed over those 5 plus seasons?  FOUR.  So maybe, just maybe Allen has had more snaps then any other player to.

 

 

 

 

then his INT rate should be as low as any of them.

1 hour ago, Roundybout said:

Cool, now show how many touchdowns he has over that time. 

 

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

And wins. 

 

that would require 2 new threads

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, MPT said:

They show this stat every game and fail to mention he also has the most TDs of any player in the league in that time. He has also been our most productive running back in that span so he'll have more fumbles on his stat sheet than most QBs just on sheer volume.

 

This year, he has one more interception than Hurts and Mahomes and more TDs than either of them.

 

Agreed.  I'm in the camp that sides with the fact that the only reason he has to do so much is due to poor overall coaching.  ... without getting into the details of to what extent or why.  

 

To your point, he's got 3,320 rushing yards over his 86 game career.  Also 44 rushing TDs and another 208 rushing 1st-Downs.  He's averaged nearly 40 rushing YPG during that span.  

 

That's also more than 1 rushing TD every other game, and 2.4 rushing 1st-Downs per game.  

 

In contrast, Mahomes in only a few more games, 89, has 1,805 rushing yards, 12 rushing TDs, and another 109 rushing 1st-Downs.  The difference is coaching, and not merely coaching insofar as Mahomes goes, but overall team coaching.  

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Yes he has the most, but elite Josh Allen (2020+) doesn’t have significantly more than Mahommes or Burrow. They’re all pretty close. I still don’t think DaBoll or Dorsey are great OCs. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Since he entered the league in 2018,  Josh Allen has more turnovers than any other player (91).

Every Bills fan didn’t know this?

[cle23]

I am not sure why this is surprising to anyone. Allen is what he is:  Supremely talented, and a top tier QB.  But he has always been somewhat careless with the ball.  Trusts his arm a bit too much, and can make boneheaded plays at times.  You get the bad with the good sometimes.  And he runs more than most QBs, so he has more opportunities to fumble, and he really doesn't avoid contact either. 

 

He has improved his accuracy since being in the NFL, and most of his INTs that I have seen aren't poor accuracy, but more poor decision making.  

Edited November 6, 2023 by cle23

[BigDingus]

But we fans will act like he hasn't EARNED that reputation.

 

Didn't we hear another stat recently that Allen hasn't managed 2 consecutive games without a turnover?

 

This is why I think Allen is more hesitant now. He's aware of his reputation.

Edited November 6, 2023 by BigDingus

[Mr. WEO]

21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Every Bills fan didn’t know this?

 

clearly not

[BigDingus]

3 minutes ago, cle23 said:

He has improved his accuracy since being in the NFL, and most of his INTs that I have seen aren't poor accuracy, but more poor decision making.  

 

This is pretty accurate. I'm actually relieved when a replay shows an INT was at least thrown close to a receiver, as there are many times where he just lobs something up when he's trying to avoid a sack, and nobody is in the area. 

 

Either that, or he throws some inexplicable limp-armed floater right to a group of defenders with nobody else around (Bears game last year?), but unfortunately I don't think that will ever change at this point. 

[PBF81]

59 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Mahomes (as you pointed out), Hurts and throw in Jackson, whos' typically in the 70's or so--the differences are insignificant and therefore it's easily imaginable.

 

Your premise is faulty--it doesn't have to do with the "Offense he is expected to provide".  Allen's INT% alone is higher than Mahomes, Jackson or Hurts---or Cousins (who accounted for 75% of Vikings yards last year) or....

 

Well, based on my post above (last post on page 1) re: Mahomes, the differences are not so insignificant.  Here it is again;  

 

Quote

 

Agreed.  I'm in the camp that sides with the fact that the only reason he has to do so much is due to poor overall coaching.  ... without getting into the details of to what extent or why.  

 

To your point, he's got 3,320 rushing yards over his 86 game career.  Also 44 rushing TDs and another 208 rushing 1st-Downs.  He's averaged nearly 40 rushing YPG during that span.  

 

That's also more than 1 rushing TD every other game, and 2.4 rushing 1st-Downs per game.  

 

In contrast, Mahomes in only a few more games, 89, has 1,805 rushing yards, 12 rushing TDs, and another 109 rushing 1st-Downs.  The difference is coaching, and not merely coaching insofar as Mahomes goes, but overall team coaching.  

 

 

The notion that the premise is faulty is arguable at best.  

 

To start, it's a reach to think that McD want Allen to provide that much of the offense and therefore that much of the rushing component.  But the primary reason why it's not faulty is that it is what it is.  We're not talking about reasons, which get into the prior sentence, and which is an entirely different discussion revolving around coaching.  Something that many here seem to be hesitent to discuss critically.  

 

A better metric for this would be TO metrics divided by passing and rushing.  Largely because there's a difference in the league average TO rate, more than likely that is, between rushing fumbles and passing INTs and even sack fumbles-lost if we want to break that down.  

 

FWIW, career INT% rates and (TD% in parentheses): 

 

Mahomes 1.7%  (6.3%)  

Allen 2.4%  (5.4%)  

Hurts 2.0%  (4.4%) 

Burrow 1.9%  (5.1%)  

Taguvailoa 2.2%  (5.1%)  

Lawrence 2.0%  (4.8%)  

Herbert 1.8%  (4.8%) 

 

Not sure that's an insignificant difference in this regard, particularly when contrasted with the TD%, which is in parentheses.  Of those top QBs, the only one that's superior to Allen in both is Mahomes.  But much of that is also related to proper coaching, better play-calling, more optimal use of offensive resources, etc.  There will be some subjectivity in trying to figure out to what extent.  

 

Also, how many fumbles by Allen were by him trying to run, often because we have no running game or coaching that get maximize what we do have for rushing capability in any given game?  

 

Here's the breakdown by the same QBs for # Carries, Rushing & Receiving TDs, and Total Fumbles for each's career.  

 

Allen:  86 games, 590 carries, 45 R/R TDs, and 55 Fumbles.  

Mahomes:  89, 341, 12, and 34

Hurts:  54, 455, 33, and 31  

Burrow:  50, 177, 10, and 21  

Tagovailoa:  45, 124, 6, and 24  

Herbert:  56, 201, 11, and 18  

Lawrence:  42, 177, 7, and 27 

 

Allen has a very significantly better Rushing & Receiving TD to Fumble ratio of any other QB in the league besides Hurts, and Hurts is also the only one that approaches Allen in terms of per-game rushing contributions.  

 

RRTD to Fumble ratio:  

 

Allen:  81.8% 

Mahomes:  35.3% 

Hurts:  106.5%  

Burrow:  47.6%  

Tagovailoa:  25.0%  

Lawrence:  25.9%  

Herbert:  61.1%  

 

That is hardly insignificant.  It actually supports the argument, substantially.  

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by PBF81

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, based on my post above re: Mahomes, the differences are not so insignificant.  

 

The notion that the premise is faulty is arguable at best.  

 

To start, it's a reach to think that McD want Allen to provide that much of the offense and therefore that much of the rushing component.  But the primary reason why it's not faulty is that it is what it is.  We're not talking about reasons, which get into the prior sentence, and which is an entirely different discussion revolving around coaching.  Something that many here seem to be hesitent to discuss critically.  

 

A better metric for this would be TO metrics divided by passing and rushing.  Largely because there's a difference in the league average TO rate, more than likely that is, between rushing fumbles and passing INTs and even sack fumbles-lost if we want to break that down.  

 

FWIW, career INT% rates: 

 

Mahomes 1.7%  (6.3%)  

Allen 2.4%  (5.4%)  

Hurts 2.0%  (4.4%) 

Burrow 1.9%  (5.1%)  

Taguvailoa 2.2%  (5.1%)  

Lawrence 2.0%  (4.8%)  

Herbert 1.8%  (4.8%) 

 

Not sure that's a significant difference in this regard, particularly when contrasted with the TD%, which is in parentheses.  Of those top QBs, the only one that's superior to Allen in both is Mahomes.  But much of that is also related to proper coaching, better play-calling, more optimal use of offensive resources, etc.  There will be some subjectivity in trying to figure out to what extent.  

 

Also, how many fumbles by Allen were by him trying to run, often because we have no running game or coaching that get maximize what we do have for rushing capability in any given game?  

 

Here's the breakdown by the same QBs for # Carries, Rushing & Receiving TDs, and Total Fumbles for each's career.  

 

Allen:  86 games, 590 carries, 45 R/R TDs, and 55 Fumbles.  

Mahomes:  89, 341, 12, and 34

Hurts:  54, 455, 33, and 31  

Burrow:  50, 177, 10, and 21  

Tagovailoa:  45, 124, 6, and 24  

Herbert:  56, 201, 11, and 18  

Lawrence:  42, 177, 7, and 27 

 

Allen has a very significantly better Rushing & Receiving TD to Fumble ratio of any other QB in the league besides Hurts, and Hurts is also the only one that approaches Allen in terms of per-game rushing contributions.  

 

RRTD to Fumble ratio:  

 

Allen:  81.8% 

Mahomes:  35.3% 

Hurts:  106.5%  

Burrow:  47.6%  

Tagovailoa:  25.0%  

Lawrence:  25.9%  

Herbert:  61.1%  

 

That is hardly insignificant.  

 

 

 

 

That's really not the point.   A fumble is a fumble, not matter whether a called run or a scramble.  The ball has to stay in the QB's hands either way, all the same.  

 

The "TO metrics" are expressed as INT rates (passing) and fumbles (rushing).

[BattlinBill]

Wow, another poster looking for attention posting the same information that has been stated every single week multiple times....

[Goin Breakdown]

Get rid of em 

[DrDawkinstein]

52 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Every Bills fan didn’t know this?

 

I'm mostly surprised that this is surprising to any Bills fan who has been watching since 2018.

[The Red King]

Two words...Brett Farve.

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

That's really not the point.   A fumble is a fumble, not matter whether a called run or a scramble.  The ball has to stay in the QB's hands either way, all the same.  

 

The "TO metrics" are expressed as INT rates (passing) and fumbles (rushing).

 

So to you a fumble by a fumble-prone RB on a routine play is the same as a fumble committed by a QB that's getting no help from his play-calling or skill position players, largely as a result of that play-calling, and therefore takes it upon himself more often than he should be forced to, while trying to get a drive-saving 1st-Down or TD near the GL because he really doesn't have any reliable GL RBs then?  

Well, OK, we'll agree to disagree I suppose.  

 

 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

35 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

But we fans will act like he hasn't EARNED that reputation.

 

Didn't we hear another stat recently that Allen hasn't managed 2 consecutive games without a turnover?

 

This is why I think Allen is more hesitant now. He's aware of his reputation.

 

We did, but that stat is wrong. He did not have a turnover in the playoffs in consecutive weeks vs Pats and Chiefs (or the regular season finale vs Jets) so that's 3 straight games with 0 turnovers. 

 

 

[BananaB]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Since he entered the league in 2018,  Josh Allen has more turnovers than any other player (91).

Where have you been

[Mango]

2 hours ago, Bangarang said:

It’s been shown on a weekly basis. 
 

Josh throws dumb interceptions a lot and fumbled a lot the first 3ish years of his career.

He had 14,9, 8, 13 the last 4 years. YoY he bounces around 6th to 3rd in the league when it come a to fumbles.

 

Theres been worse years but there has never been “good years” when it comes

to fumbles. 
 

Surprisingly this year he’s on pace for his best year in regards to fumbles. But we stink sooooo.

[Bangarang]

18 minutes ago, Mango said:

He had 14,9, 8, 13 the last 4 years. YoY he bounces around 6th to 3rd in the league when it come a to fumbles.

 

Theres been worse years but there has never been “good years” when it comes

to fumbles. 
 

Surprisingly this year he’s on pace for his best year in regards to fumbles. But we stink sooooo.

He’s also on pace to have a career low in rushing attempts.

 

If you ask me, I can live with the fumbles if it means Josh is being a dynamic playmaker with his feet. Dunk washing that part in his game has made him a nightmare for defenses. 

[The Jokeman]

Fumbles vs fumbles lost is the stat I want to see as just because you fumble it doesn't it mean the ball was indeed turned over.

Edited November 6, 2023 by The Jokeman

[Boatdrinks]

4 hours ago, MPT said:

They show this stat every game and fail to mention he also has the most TDs of any player in the league in that time. He has also been our most productive running back in that span so he'll have more fumbles on his stat sheet than most QBs just on sheer volume.

 

This year, he has one more interception than Hurts and Mahomes and more TDs than either of them.

They mentioned the TD’s . QB’s often have the most fumbles as they touch the ball on every play. You’re correct though. Some see that number and immediately think it means this season too. It doesn’t. He had a lot of fumbles his first few years when he ran constantly. 

3 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

This is pretty accurate. I'm actually relieved when a replay shows an INT was at least thrown close to a receiver, as there are many times where he just lobs something up when he's trying to avoid a sack, and nobody is in the area. 

 

Either that, or he throws some inexplicable limp-armed floater right to a group of defenders with nobody else around (Bears game last year?), but unfortunately I don't think that will ever change at this point. 

I doubt it will change, but it’s also not the reason for the current offensive struggles. I think he’s always been aware of this reputation , but it’s pretty much been an interesting factoid amongst a lot of scoring - and winning. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

So to you a fumble by a fumble-prone RB on a routine play is the same as a fumble committed by a QB that's getting no help from his play-calling or skill position players, largely as a result of that play-calling, and therefore takes it upon himself more often than he should be forced to, while trying to get a drive-saving 1st-Down or TD near the GL because he really doesn't have any reliable GL RBs then?  

Well, OK, we'll agree to disagree I suppose.  

 

 

 

Sure, no one is denying that Josh isn't getting the help he needs from his teammates and his coaches.  That's not on topic.

 

A ball carrier is a ball carrier, a fumble is a fumble.  Once he takes off, the many reasons prompted him to chose to run don't have any impact on his ability to hold on to the ball.  What you are suggesting makes no sense.

 

Fields had 33% more carries last year and 31% fewer fumbles.  Fields had 30% more carries but only 18% more fumbles.  Both had a higher "success rate" (at least 40% of the yardage needed on 1st down, 60% needed on 2nd down and 100% needed on 3rd or 4th down) running the ball.

 

There's no such thing as a separate "I'm not getting any help" fumble.