Elam's issues

[JGMcD2]

48 minutes ago, Sargent Hulka said:

My biggest takeaway is that whoever the college scout on Beane's staff is that recommended Elam as their 1st Round pick, he should never again be involved with picking that high of a selection. Honestly, some of the Bills scouts suck at their job.

This is just a woefully ignorant statement.
 

You have no idea who the scouts are, what they said, and quite frankly no idea how difficult projecting talent is. 

[Brian Higgins hair]

29 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

This is just a woefully ignorant statement.
 

You have no idea who the scouts are, what they said, and quite frankly no idea how difficult projecting talent is. 

…and of course, the same scouting staff plucked C. Benford from complete obscurity and found a 6th round rook who happens to be a starting NFL quality CB.

No one can 100% accurately predict a player’s NFL faults or uncovered contributions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited October 3, 2023 by Brian Higgins hair

[Augie]

2 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

38-10, 37-3, 48-20

 

BINGO!!! 

[SCBills]

46 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I just think McDermott doesn't trust Elam.  It has to be the mental part because he physically has it.

 

You saw how precise the Bills defense is from what we saw on the Dolphins game review.  Elam probably just isn't in the right spot or gets easily confused or bites on play fakes....something mentally is keeping him off the field.  

 

Agreed.   And didn't we play zone against Miami at a wildly high clip?

 

Elam has every physical trait you could want in a corner and I still have belief he can be a big time player for us, but I also think we would be smart to get in the market for a veteran corner more well-versed in zone, even if just as depth/4th CB on the 53. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, Tommy Callahan said:

Huge fan of 47.   Hopefully the benching put a fire in his belly and we see it when he comes back.

 

 

When was Benford benched?

[Big Turk]

I think it comes down to 3 things:

 

1) Elam was mostly a man corner and perhaps does not have a good enough grasp of how the Bills pass off defenders in some of their zone concepts...it can be a complicated dance they do where everyone has to be on the same page or else one wrong "pass off" can lead to a busted coverage and wide open player for 6.

 

2) This leads to the coaches not trusting Elam to be in the right position on the field or make the right decision. Perhaps he also doesn't know how to sit in his zone properly and is out of position to make plays.

 

3) Elam has a tendency to get called for holding, illegal contact and PI quite a bit seemingly...nothing worse than giving the offense a free 1st down on a 3rd and 15 because you are holding your guy on a 7 yard pass pattern that wouldn't have even been a first down anyway.

 

I remember hearing several times in training camp about Diggs getting in his face due to excessive holding he was doing on a play.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Big Turk

[Tommy Callahan]

1 hour ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

When was Benford benched?

I don't think he was. he got hurt but was seen back in the game.

 

posting from a phone.  first sentence was Benford. I think he is our best corner with white down.  second was about Elam having a fire in his belly, hopefully.

 

 

[Snowbowl]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

It's pretty clear from interviews that Elam gets lost in zone coverages and just doesn't have that intuition for where he needs to be and move to. He's fine in man coverage and has shown that. Beane's comments that they wish it was just a work ethic thing allude to the fact that something isnt happening right mentally when he is playing our system. Hopefully he can figure it out - he's young. But when you watch any film breakdown it's clear how important it is in our system (and any system) to be able to communicate and leverage yourself properly every play. These things aren't easy 

Bingo! He’s not the sharpest tack in the box. Great kid. Hope the light bulb goes off for him soon. 

[uninja]

Whatever Elam's issues might be, he's going to have to figure it out quickly but at least we have a slate of games where he can settle in and find his legs before the back end of the schedule shows up and ***** gets real.

 

Hope Benford is okay and bounces back quick, we're already a bit thin at CB but have some players like Neal or Lewis that can play that spot in a pinch. Feel good about Jackson/Benford/Elam holding it down, but gonna be lame if we're down to our second string secondary by week 4 with the prospect of having to call up Ingram or Brown off the practice squad to round out depth.

[Nuncha]

14 hours ago, All I Need is Hope said:

Makes it even more puzzling to understand why they can't get top end production out of someone with Elam's elite athletic traits

 

I have a feeling he is struggling with his assignments in this defense for whatever reason.  

[BRH]

13 hours ago, NickelCity said:

I'm hoping the annoyance is just due to "what do you want me to say he's not practicing as well as the other guys..."

 

This.  And he's been answering the same question for weeks now.  There's nothing else to say at this point.

 

I'd rather have a coach who puts the best eleven on the field than someone who worries about what the media and fans think.  They should be asking Beane about Elam, not McD.

[babulator]

Remember how impressed the staff was when he brought his notebook to the team interview? They really hyped that up. 😇

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Terrell Bernard was in the dog house too and look how far he’s come along. 

[HoofHearted]

13 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Bottomline is Tre works extremely hard and is smarter (High School Valedictorian). Elam works harder but is likely not as smart as Tre. So you have two 1st round corners one who is one of the smartest in the NFL and is the hardest worker. That is a tough bar to clear if you are Elam.  As for Benford and Jackson it is my opinion that the Bills CB 2 is likely more a position of dealing with WR 2 and that is less demanding athletically. 

It's not. We play with field and boundary corners. They don't travel with receivers.

[Dat]

His notebook under the chapter "Zone" just has a big question mark and a bunch of doodles of cat women.

[JoeF]

5 minutes ago, Dat said:

His notebook under the chapter "Zone" just has a big question mark and a bunch of doodles of cat women.

Stole a copy of Elam's notebook page 1 under the Cover2 section...

 

[SCBills]

42 minutes ago, uninja said:

Whatever Elam's issues might be, he's going to have to figure it out quickly but at least we have a slate of games where he can settle in and find his legs before the back end of the schedule shows up and ***** gets real.

 

Hope Benford is okay and bounces back quick, we're already a bit thin at CB but have some players like Neal or Lewis that can play that spot in a pinch. Feel good about Jackson/Benford/Elam holding it down, but gonna be lame if we're down to our second string secondary by week 4 with the prospect of having to call up Ingram or Brown off the practice squad to round out depth.

 

Bright side is this happened before the trade deadline.

 

I do think we should have belief that Benford, Jackson and Elam can be a very solid outside unit .. especially with the Front 7 and Safety play around them .. but, worse case scenario, we can make a move for legitimate help. 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Snowbowl said:

Bingo! He’s not the sharpest tack in the box. Great kid. Hope the light bulb goes off for him soon. 

I think we want the light bulb to go on for him soon. 

[RkFast]

On Sunday night, Muki Hawkins was part of a Twitter space, which he does often, and strongly implied that it was attitude based. He wouldnt say, becuase he cant violate privacy as someone who has lockerroom access, but he basically said "read between the lines."

 

Take that for what you will......

[cage]

3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

This is just a woefully ignorant statement.
 

You have no idea who the scouts are, what they said, and quite frankly no idea how difficult projecting talent is. 

 

....all that and there's never been a 1st round pick selected on the basis of the "word" of one scout.  Beane traded up a few slots for him, didn't he.... as he was the last player on the board left with a first round grade

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

19 minutes ago, JoeF said:

Stole a copy of Elam's notebook page 1 under the Cover2 section...

 

Actually, I heard it was just keeping track of who had more TBD-TSW posts.  Elam or Edmunds.  Edmunds is still in the lead.

[RunTheBall]

5 minutes ago, RkFast said:

On Sunday night, Muki Hawkins was part of a Twitter space, which he does often, and strongly implied that it was attitude based. He wouldnt say, becuase he cant violate privacy as someone who has lockerroom access, but he basically said "read between the lines."

 

Take that for what you will......

Idk everything McD says is that Kair has acted like a true professional. He’s not going to come out and say he has a crap attitude but at the same time he wouldn’t do the exact opposite and praise his professionalism if it was really an issue.

 

I think it’s highly likely that Elam is taking longer to grab the nuances of a zone D than the team anticipated when we drafted him. He’s got the physical skills, but he’s gotta get the “feel” of the zone like Benford and Bernard have and not be thinking out there too much about where exactly he has to be.

 

One thing about this staff is except for Teller, they don’t give up on players too soon. If Elam gets traded at some point I’m confident it’s because he just couldn’t pick up the system and not for lack of opportunity.

 

[Sargent Hulka]

3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

This is just a woefully ignorant statement.
 

You have no idea who the scouts are, what they said, and quite frankly no idea how difficult projecting talent is. 

I never said I knew who the scout was,  but one of them sure made the recommendation. Goober! Ignorant statement? Who the f**k you think you are, A**hole?

Edited October 3, 2023 by Sargent Hulka

[PatsFanNH]

14 hours ago, Mango said:

I think Elam is likely “fine”. I don’t think he’s a bust. Probably “meh”.
 

Jackson struggled as the year went on and everybody on defense went down, but when Tre went down Dane played really well. And by the time we hit the playoffs was better than Levi. Through the first 5 or so games of last season DJ was something like top 5 in passer rating when targeted. He’s struggled but he can ball too.

 

All that said Benford beat him out in a close battle. And apparently Elam wasn’t too far behind. 
 

I think it’s a factor of having an all-pro on one side and and 2 pretty goods on the other. Pair that with minimal game experience, being strongest at the defenses least used skill set, and a lack of versatility compared to the guys in front of him, he finds himself the odd man out. 

Thats so confusing to me.. why draft someone that excels in an area you don’t care about? But has minimal experience in what you do? Wonder if they weee thinking of switching to more man coverage

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

Thats so confusing to me.. why draft someone that excels in an area you don’t care about? But has minimal experience in what you do? Wonder if they weee thinking of switching to more man coverage

 

Usually when you blitz you want to play some level of man coverage behind it - perhaps we were looking to blitz more.  

[HoofHearted]

4 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

Idk everything McD says is that Kair has acted like a true professional. He’s not going to come out and say he has a crap attitude but at the same time he wouldn’t do the exact opposite and praise his professionalism if it was really an issue.

 

I think it’s highly likely that Elam is taking longer to grab the nuances of a zone D than the team anticipated when we drafted him. He’s got the physical skills, but he’s gotta get the “feel” of the zone like Benford and Bernard have and not be thinking out there too much about where exactly he has to be.

 

One thing about this staff is except for Teller, they don’t give up on players too soon. If Elam gets traded at some point I’m confident it’s because he just couldn’t pick up the system and not for lack of opportunity.

 

There's no "feel". It's all rule based. Dude will either get it or he won't. I don't buy into any of this about him not understanding how to play zone coverage. There's no team in the world that runs just man coverage. His time with the Bills isn't the first time he's had to learn zone coverages or play in zone coverages. Other dudes have just out-performed him or been more consistent than him. That doesn't mean he's a bust and can't do it - just means there's dudes who are playing better.

 

I am really curious what we do now though. Benford and Dane really and truly are both field corners. They stuck Benford at the boundary spot after Tre went down, but I don't know if that'll stick going forward.

2 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Usually when you blitz you want to play some level of man coverage behind it - perhaps we were looking to blitz more.  

This isn't true...

[RunTheBall]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

There's no "feel". It's all rule based. Dude will either get it or he won't. I don't buy into any of this about him not understanding how to play zone coverage. There's no team in the world that runs just man coverage. His time with the Bills isn't the first time he's had to learn zone coverages or play in zone coverages. Other dudes have just out-performed him or been more consistent than him. That doesn't mean he's a bust and can't do it - just means there's dudes who are playing better.

 

I am really curious what we do now though. Benford and Dane really and truly are both field corners. They stuck Benford at the boundary spot after Tre went down, but I don't know if that'll stick going forward.

 

Sure it starts off rules based but in order to develop the correct muscle memory to play fast he has to get to the point where he’s not thinking so much. Again it’s pure speculation on all our parts why he isn’t out there because it’s a fact that he has better physical skills than our other corners. I’m guessing it’s because he’s not playing his zone responsibilities as good as White/Jackson/Benford but, it’s just a guess.

 

[JGMcD2]

16 minutes ago, Sargent Hulka said:

I never said I knew who the scout was,  but one of them sure made the recommendation. Goober! Ignorant statement? Who the f**k you think you are, A**hole?

Wait a second, you're the one throwing around statements like "he should never again be involved with picking that high of a selection" and "Honestly, some of the Bills scouts suck at their job." My question is, who the f**k you think you are, A**hole?

 

I can tell you from being in these rooms, it isn't as simple as "making a recommendation."

Edited October 3, 2023 by JGMcD2

[H2o]

Whatever his issues are, he's about to get some run now and I hope he makes the most of his opportunity. He showed some flashes last year of being a talented young CB. I hope this has served as a learning experience and now he comes out with some fire.

[billsfan89]

39 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

Thats so confusing to me.. why draft someone that excels in an area you don’t care about? But has minimal experience in what you do? Wonder if they weee thinking of switching to more man coverage

The Bills were coming off 13 seconds and Tre’s ACL injury. They wanted to get faster at corner and drafted the best athlete at corner. I think you also may be onto something where they may have also wanted to run more man. But I think generally they saw just how vulnerable not having speed was to them when Tre was out and looked to add more speed.

[kickedface]

very simple it comes down to scheme. hes a man cb that excels in man coverage but the d uses a lot of zone coverage which the other 2 are much better at. sure theres the physical side as well where he plays a very physical game that can get him in trouble with pass interference depending on the refs. it was that way in college for him as well. but he's willing to learn and takes everything the coaching staff and veterans tell him and tries to integrate it. he can even tell you about every play hes ever had in college or the pros and what he could've done to do better

[newcam2012]

20 hours ago, All I Need is Hope said:

Makes it even more puzzling to understand why they can't get top end production out of someone with Elam's elite athletic traits

 

I think he might not be able to grasp the McD zone scheme. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

22 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I think it also has to do with Elam though. Lot of negative innuendo in the comments by McDermott about Elam. Even today, he basically was like, “we’ll see” about Elam. 

He was "concerned" about Diggs.  That worked out ok.  I think the kid will be fine especially with two capable safeties behind him.

[Aussie Joe]

8 hours ago, babulator said:

Remember how impressed the staff was when he brought his notebook to the team interview? They really hyped that up. 😇

He must be on about his 5th notebook by now ..

[SoCal Deek]

I’m going to trust that this kid sees this as his one shot to prove he’s not a total bust. Let’s hope he has some inner motivation and pride. 

[JimmyNoodles]

Just my take, since we’re all guessing, but I think the issue is his physicality. I mentioned in a post a long time ago that I thought he could be more physical at the point of the catch. In that same vein,  I think tackling, run support, etc is the problem. Zone is not the issue per se. Closing and tackling out of that could be a problem.  I think McD would like him to be a little tougher.