Training Camp 8/1 9:45

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

9 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

 

 

Woof...

 

 

 

 

Man that last tweet is the perfect microcosm for this Bills offense. Josh Allen, Stefon Diggs and a bunch of crap.

[Beck Water]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Astro does a good job. But there's been so much confusion during the live tweets that sometimes reading his report later on makes me think he (or someone else) is watching an entirely different practice...lol.

 

I know some of it has to do with where you are and what you're seeing at the time from that vantage point because often there's a lot going on at once.

 

To me it usually falls into place, like "OK, Torrence was in with the 1s pre-stretching then it was Bates with the 1s in the first 11-on-11 team session then.....

 

But it can seem like different practice, for example, Ajay Cybulski sees Khalil Shakir as dropping a pass he should have caught.

A different perspective:

 

1 minute ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

Man that last tweet is the perfect microcosm for this Bills offense. Josh Allen, Stefon Diggs and a bunch of crap.

 

Or, maybe it was a very good play by Cam Lewis, who has played 234 defensive snaps in the NFL; he can make a play.

Davis has by all accounts had a good couple of days, and Kincaid so far is having a good camp as is Cook.

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good.  Show Kinkaid that this is the NFL, it's not going to be easy

 

 

 

 

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

Sounds like Cam Lewis broke it up.  I'm not done with Shakir.  

[MWK]

Almost like we should have brought in some real competition for him.

 

 

 

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

 

I'm not done with him.  But I no longer view him as a roster lock.  He's got to figure out how to hang on to some of those contested balls, because he doesn't have the arm length or speed to hold defenders off and separate cleanly.

[Ya Digg?]

6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

Or, maybe it was a very good play by Cam Lewis, who has played 234 defensive snaps in the NFL; he can make a play.

Davis has by all accounts had a good couple of days, and Kincaid so far is having a good camp as is Cook.

Every time I see anything about Cam Lewis I cringe-his play last year gives me major PTSD

[gobills404]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

Honestly Beane might as well cut him at this point. It’s a well known fact that players never improve after their first season.

[GoBills808]

Offense being dominated by this defense should not be happening

[SCBills]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

To me it usually falls into place, like "OK, Torrence was in with the 1s pre-stretching then it was Bates with the 1s in the first 11-on-11 team session then.....

 

But it can seem like different practice, for example, Ajay Cybulski sees Khalil Shakir as dropping a pass he should have caught.

A different perspective:

 

 

Or, maybe it was a very good play by Cam Lewis, who has played 234 defensive snaps in the NFL; he can make a play.

Davis has by all accounts had a good couple of days, and Kincaid so far is having a good camp as is Cook.

 

Shakir seems to be the most polarizing player of camp so far.

 

Some reporters think he's been solid/stock up.  Others keep highlighting him having an issue with drops.  

[Jerry Jabber]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

I never had high hopes for Shakir, mainly with him being drafted in the 5th round. At those lower levels of the draft, it’s an even higher gamble that these players will work out. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Jerry Jabber

[Beck Water]

Just now, MWK said:

Almost like we should have brought in some real competition for him.

 

 

 

 

That (tying together threads) is the real achilles heel of Beane's OL builds.  It's not that he doesn't put resources into the line.  He has - maybe not as many high picks as folks would like, but OL is hard to scout these days so there's an argument to be made for picking up guys who have put down some NFL tape.

 

But there are two errors with a draft pick.  One is giving up too early (analogous to Type I error in statistics. rejection of actually true null hypothesis)  The other is giving them too many chances and too much time (analogous to Type II error, accepting an actually false null hypothesis). 

 

When it comes to Cody Ford and now maybe Spencer Brown, Beane has been a Type II guy.

 

 

[Don Otreply]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Offense being dominated by this defense should not be happening

Oh please already, yesterday the offense dominated the defense, where were you then? this back and forth is standard for TC, happens every preseason, 

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Offense being dominated by this defense should not be happening

 

Huh?

[Airseven]

I still think Shakir figures it out and avoids becoming another “Beane special.”

 

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Offense being dominated by this defense should not be happening

It happens at the start of nearly every camp.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Airseven

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'm not done with him.  But I no longer view him as a roster lock.  He's got to figure out how to hang on to some of those contested balls, because he doesn't have the arm length or speed to hold defenders off and separate cleanly.

 

Same.  I've heard only good things about Diggs-Davis-Harty-Sherfield.  Shakir has been a mixed bag, and if I'm the Bills, I don't want to risk subjecting Shorter to waivers - plus he provides ST's ability while we develop him.  

 

That gives me 4 locks, and 1 guy who probably wouldn't clear waivers, provides ST ability and gives us a developmental hedge/true outside WR if Gabe leaves after this season. 

 

I wouldn't be opposed to moving Shakir for a Day 3 pick if there's suitors... especially if someone like Isabella steps up as a return man and/or we want to keep an extra TE given the battle between Morris & Sternberger, along with our increased 12 personnel identity. 

[MasterStrategist]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Shakir seems to be the most polarizing player of camp so far.

 

Some reporters think he's been solid/stock up.  Others keep highlighting him having an issue with drops.  

Exactly why I don't put alot of stock into it yet.  There's a few reports, ie: ASTRO, others that I trust.  Then everyone else, I'm not sure they're even paying attention or know what to look for.

 

Personal experience (just 1 day at camp): Cook, Gabe and Shakir all looked improved/noticeably quicker. Cook has a presence that he felt more comfortable/confident in his role on offense

 

it's great to see the reports, just find it funny when some posters latch on to these and use it as justification for Player XYZ to be cut/traded, etc.

 

Wait to preseason starts, or if you're at camp, and use your own eyes to judge 

[gobills404]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Offense being dominated by this defense should not be happening

You mean the one that’s allowed the fewest points AND yards in the NFL over the last 2 seasons? That defense shouldn’t have good days????

[2003Contenders]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

I wouldn't go that far, but I am starting to feel like his roster spot may indeed be in jeopardy. With the thought of running so many 12 (or even 11 1/2) formations, there is certainly the chance that the Bills will keep one fewer receiver on the final roster than they have the last couple of years. I would imagine that Diggs/Davis/Sherfield/Harty are all locks, and a couple of weeks ago I thought Shakir was the 5th man with everyone else battling for possibly a 6th and final spot. Now I am not so sure.

[Jerry Jabber]

15 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

That (tying together threads) is the real achilles heel of Beane's OL builds.  It's not that he doesn't put resources into the line.  He has - maybe not as many high picks as folks would like, but OL is hard to scout these days so there's an argument to be made for picking up guys who have put down some NFL tape.

 

But there are two errors with a draft pick.  One is giving up too early (analogous to Type I error in statistics. rejection of actually true null hypothesis)  The other is giving them too many chances and too much time (analogous to Type II error, accepting an actually false null hypothesis). 

 

When it comes to Cody Ford and now maybe Spencer Brown, Beane has been a Type II guy.

 

 

Brown reminds me of Torell Troup. Troup looked good early on with the Bills, but had a bad back injury which derailed his career. I’m hoping Brown will be able to fully recover and have a solid career as a RT for the Bills, but the reports so far in this year’s camp are worrisome.

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

17 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Shakir seems to be the most polarizing player of camp so far.

 

Some reporters think he's been solid/stock up.  Others keep highlighting him having an issue with drops.  

Shakir got very few snaps last season, but I don't remember him dropping many passes. Crowder and Mckenzie on the other hand...

[JaCrispy]

42 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

 

 

Woof...

 

 

 

 

I think it is officially a mental thing with this guy…he’s too good to be dropping all these passes…

[Special K]

23 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Offense being dominated by this defense should not be happening

 

Offense killed it yesterday, so Defense came out with a chip on their shoulders today....it happens.

[SCBills]

6 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

Shakir got very few snaps last season, but I don't remember him dropping many passes. Crowder and Mckenzie on the other hand...

 

He dropped a big play late in the season... forgot who it was against.  

 

I'm just not sold on him.  Harty has elite speed and playmaking ability.  Sherfield is solid and an elite blocking WR.  Those two compliment Diggs and Davis, seemingly, very well.  

 

Shakir, from what I remember, struggled heavily in blocking as a rookie and is kind of a tweener body type.  Talented player in space, but we have Diggs, Davis, Cook, Knox, Kincaid etc., to feed before we focus on getting the ball to Shakir on designed plays.  

 

Rookie contract may be his saving grace, but he seems to be struggling a bit more than I'd like to hear for a second year player in this system.  

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

12 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

Shakir got very few snaps last season, but I don't remember him dropping many passes. Crowder and Mckenzie on the other hand...

He dropped a big one in the playoff game against Miami. We’re not have sweated that one out if you hauled it in.

[NewEra]

38 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

Tweets cause you to feel this way.  You haven’t even seen him play this year and you’re done?   You’re better than that.

 

I agree that it’s frustrating to see tweets about him dropping passes-  but you can’t let social media dictate your feeling about a player. 

[BADOLBILZ]

18 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

Shakir got very few snaps last season, but I don't remember him dropping many passes. Crowder and Mckenzie on the other hand...

 

 

He was credited with 2 dropped passes and caught just 10 of 20 targets last regular season for a 10% drop rate........which is a very bad %.   Gabe had a 9.7% drop rate and finished second in the league in total drops among WR.   

 

But where Shakir's dropsies really hurt was the long bomb he dropped near the end of the second quarter in the WC game.    He was wide open,  bobbled it, lost his balance and tumbled to the ground and was originally credited with a catch.......but upon further review he clearly spilled it on the turf.   Brutal error.  Punt instead of 7 points (or at least 3).   Momentum of game changed entirely on that play.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

C'mon Dawkins, you gonna let AJE beatcha?

I'm telling ya this team will only advance as far as our ? OL takes us.

[hellofellowbillsfans]

apparently Dawkins was beat quite a bit yesterday as well

[BADOLBILZ]

45 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

 

 

I think what's lost on the people who insist you are over-reacting to Shakir dropping passes is that he was a ball dropper last year and he needs to be a guy who drops maybe 1 pass in 20 targets.   He's getting just a handful of targets daily so it's notable when he's being noted for dropping some of those few targets.   He won't make it dropping 2 out of every 20 targets.......that's approaching a league worst kinda' drop rate.   

[HappyDays]

Updates from Matt Parrino and Ryan Talbot today:

 

Quote

Josh Allen appeared to be hurt for a bit again after a complete siege from the defensive line (bad day for o-line). He walked back to behind the play and a trainer was attending to him. He hasn't missed any further time and is back in team drill. Shaq Lawson just beat Spencer Brown (who's had his worst day of camp) for another sack at the end of the last 1st team series. 

O'Cyrus Torrence started at RG with the 1s but Ryan Bates was in on the last series. David Edwards has been at LG with the 1st team today. -Matt

 

Quote

Matt checking in with more from practice.

I know a lot of folks have been asking about Shane Ray - I think he was really good today. He had one team rep (2nd team) where he just exploded out of his stance and blew by Brandon Shell. His pressure there was important to a bad throw from Matt Barkley.

Taylor Rapp plays a physical brand of ball. He got his first big chance today with Poyer getting vet rest day. Allen found Deonte Harty on a quick throw and Rapp triggered and put a huge thud on him. 

John Butler said this AM that Rapp's versatility is what he likes the most about his game.

 

Quote

Connor McGovern played LG with the 1st team again for the final few periods of team drills. It didn't help the offense as the defensive line was just dominant. The Bills were working on 3rd and long, so the d-line was licking its chops, but it was hard not to notice the individual wins for the rushers.

Ed Oliver was unblock-able and was in the backfield on virtually every play, either forcing the QB to move, to throw it, or get sacked.

Oliver had a sensational rep when he blew past McGovern and the whistle blew just seconds after the snap. Leonard Floyd won on his rep, too, vs Spencer Brown.

 

[Big Turk]

30 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

Shakir got very few snaps last season, but I don't remember him dropping many passes. Crowder and Mckenzie on the other hand...

 

He dropped a bomb against Miami in the playoffs where it was initially ruled as a catch at like the 15 yard line but overturned on replay.

[SectionC3]

19 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

He dropped a big play late in the season... forgot who it was against.  

 

I'm just not sold on him.  Harty has elite speed and playmaking ability.  Sherfield is solid and an elite blocking WR.  Those two compliment Diggs and Davis, seemingly, very well.  

 

Shakir, from what I remember, struggled heavily in blocking as a rookie and is kind of a tweener body type.  Talented player in space, but we have Diggs, Davis, Cook, Knox, Kincaid etc., to feed before we focus on getting the ball to Shakir on designed plays.  

 

Rookie contract may be his saving grace, but he seems to be struggling a bit more than I'd like to hear for a second year player in this system.  

Miami.  Playoff game. 

[goldenboy81]

Training camp baby. Gotta love it

[Lost]

 

Glad we got this guy.  Seems like a very likeable, well spoken team player.  

[John from Riverside]

48 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

That (tying together threads) is the real achilles heel of Beane's OL builds.  It's not that he doesn't put resources into the line.  He has - maybe not as many high picks as folks would like, but OL is hard to scout these days so there's an argument to be made for picking up guys who have put down some NFL tape.

 

But there are two errors with a draft pick.  One is giving up too early (analogous to Type I error in statistics. rejection of actually true null hypothesis)  The other is giving them too many chances and too much time (analogous to Type II error, accepting an actually false null hypothesis). 

 

When it comes to Cody Ford and now maybe Spencer Brown, Beane has been a Type II guy.

 

 

I’m not understanding this
Spencer Brown has not been given too much time. He was extremely raw, whenever we drafted him and his lost time due to Covid and the back injury.

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 

I agree that it’s frustrating to see tweets about him dropping passes-  but you can’t let social media dictate your feeling about a player. 

In a way, we all were better off when there were no instantaneous publications of anything, and we all just waited a day to read the coverage that people wrote after watching the whole practice.   Living in this social media world, we all get confused by the timing of info, by the less-than-completely-valid observations some people make, etc.  But if we're not there, these tweets give us the feeling that we're talking with someone who is there, and we can't help ourselves.   

 

Add to that that we've all been starving for football to start, so we're gobbling up anything we can get.    

 

It's crazy.   In some ways, it would be better for me if I just went with radio silence until September.   Like, I'd actually do that, right?

[BananaB]

We basically added one guy to our oline, other than that it’s just depth. Maybe Torrence will pan out but having a rookie next to Brown is very scary. All the depth players we sign don’t do anything to help the starting lineup, and that what we need. 

[LabattBlue]

If the Bills listened to every knee jerk reaction every time someone drops a pass there would be no one left on the roster to catch passes.  

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, BananaB said:

We basically added one guy to our oline, other than that it’s just depth. Maybe Torrence will pan out but having a rookie next to Brown is very scary. All the depth players we sign don’t do anything to help the starting lineup, and that what we need. 

Connor McGovern is not a DEpth player