McDermott detractors

[SoMAn]

Prior to this playoff loss, the Bills played 17 full games, losing only 3, by a combined total of 8 points. 
They lost to last year’s AFC champ by 17 points with missing or hobbled players on defense.
There are improvements to be made, but the mindset that there needs to be a complete overhaul is an unwarranted knee jerk reaction. Be careful what you wish for.  It wouldn’t take much to return to the days of 6-11 and draft talk by week 10. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

3 hours ago, Joe Ferguson said:

McDermott reminds me of Doug Collins ex-coach of the Chicago Bulls. Nice guy and I'm sure his players like him. His team is always good  in the regular season but early exits in the NBA playoffs. He can't seem to beat the Pistons or Celtics in the playoffs even when he had the GOAT of all time Michael Jordan. After Doug Collins left the Bulls team, his assistant coach Phil Jackson took over. And guess what, Jordan won all those titles.

The Buccaneers fired Tony Dungy and then won the Super Bowl.

[boyst]

I was nearly ready to fire McDermott two years ago. I 100% was pushing this last year, and promoting dabol

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

21 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

5 made the playoffs, two got close and one ended in last place. Bowles, Pederson and Smith were in their first year with new clubs and Belichick, Rivera and Smith each started several QBs due to injury of ineffectiveness.
 

 

 I heard that's one of the worst injuries a player could suffer. The injury of ineffectiveness is not to be taken lightly!!

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[BullBuchanan]

2 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 I heard that's one of the worst injuries a player could suffer. The injury of ineffectiveness is not to be taken lightly!!

 

 

 

You really don't want to come down with it. It's not a pretty sight for anyone around you.

[Rocbillsfan1]

The culture created by Beane and McDermott has produced an attractive destination for free agents
 

 

No the culture was created by the Pegulas ridding the stink of this org and cleaning house. They sunk lots of money into this franchise and western NY. I could give a ***** about a coach that is only known for clapping a lot. 

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, ControllerOfPlanetX said:

The Buccaneers fired Tony Dungy and then won the Super Bowl.

Heck look at the Eagles

 

Won a SB w Pederson, fired him, two years later back in the NFCCG

[CaliBills]

28 minutes ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

The culture created by Beane and McDermott has produced an attractive destination for free agents
 

 

No the culture was created by the Pegulas ridding the stink of this org and cleaning house. They sunk lots of money into this franchise and western NY. I could give a ***** about a coach that is only known for clapping a lot. 

You going to get off your soapbox anytime soon?  

Schtick is getting old

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, TheBrownBear said:

I think the coaches and us fans were able to delude ourselves in 2020 and 2021 by saying "the Chiefs are just better with generational talents at QB, TE and WR, but even so, we are closing the gap and were 13 seconds away from possibly marching to the Super Bowl."  That was the entire narrative heading into this season, one in which we were nearly unanimous Super Bowl favorites among the press and Vegas.  There were concerns/issues raised by the KC losses, but we had seemed to make a real effort to address them with the signing of Von and the drafting of Elam and Cook.  I think most of us were content with where we were heading into this season (outside of minor quibbles about Frazier, Dorsey's inexperience and the lack of a No. 2 WR) and didn't have too many doubts about the current state or future trajectory of the team under Beane and McDermott.  I know that was the case for me.

 

But Sunday changed all that as far as I'm concerned.  The Bengals might be the better team, but they aren't 17 points better than us from a talent perspective, especially not on our home turf.  Outside of our competent special teams units, we failed to show up at every other level.  Our game plans were crap, our execution was crap, our adjustments were crap and our attitude was crap.  We were undeniably underprepared to play on Sunday and that all falls on McDermott.  I think he, more than any of the players, lost his edge as a result of the Hamlin incident.  

 

You raise some interesting points here.  

 

To start, I've always maintained that had our SB era teams had Parcells, Johnson, or Gibbs instead of Levy, we'd have won at least two of those SBs.  Not the Redskins one, they were simply the better team that year, but not so in the other three.  I distinctly recall after halftime of that fourth SB, the one where we led 13-6 at the half, I was at my friend's SB party in West Seneca, and after the half the Cowboys came running out of the tunnel, helmets on, fist-pumping and jacked to play.  

 

Then here come our players, Bruce Smith WALKING out of the tunnel, helmet in hand, looking down at the turf, sloooowly WALKING out onto the field with the rest of the players.  I remember being damn near speechless, looked to my Bills game buddy, and said "This game's over!"  And it was.  We got our asses handed to us 24-0 in the 2nd half.  

 

I distinctly recall the on-field reporters saying what the lockerrooms were like.  The one from the Cowboys locker room said that Jimmy Johnson was swearing up a storm and throwing chairs around.  ... So what was Marv doing?  Apparently, according to them, he was reading Hemmingway (or some famous author) quotes to the team.  Seriously.  I don't think we even need to discuss the rest of the game or why it unfolded as it did.  I mean talking about sedating your team.  

 

McD's a great guy, fantastic guy.  And we went thru an unprecedented circumstance, from which we should have recovered by gameday here.  But at the end of the day, we're not talking about a bunch of guys that get together for a free meal at the end of a long hard work week, to play football to represent their city.  We're talking about paid professionals, very highly paid professionals.  That "family" mentality cannot overcome the professional/team mentality apart from a brief period within which to grieve, as we all had. 

 

We all thought that the Miami game was bad, and I'm sure many of us wrote it off as the "hangover game," which it should have been.  It was for us fans.  But it was McD's job to have this team overcome that for this past game.  He failed, miserably, and it's clearly coaching that set the tone for eveyrone coming out flat.  That Cinci game was the worst game of the season, easily.  So these excuses as to how hard it's been on the team don't resonate well with a lot of fans.  Many of the same fans have unexpressed hardships in their lives too.  Suppose Hamlin has a serious set-back, as his family put out via the media over the weekend, and something worse happens?  Is it going to impact their play next season too?   Everyone has to deal with this in their own way, personally.  I get that the team is a family of sorts, but I'd wager that if we asked Hamlin what he thought of the game as he watched it, he wouldn't be very happy about it.  

 

I get the same exact impression with McD as I got with Marv.  If we had Reid, Taylor, and possibly even Sirianni, Shanahan, Pederson, or even a few others, that we'd be playing better overall football in general.  You watch those teams, particularly Cinci and KC, there's a more methodical approach to them.  We don't have one.  It's entirely shoot-from-the-hip game-planning and tactics, if we can even call them tactics.  Those are terminal issues for a coaching staff, for a team.  They WILL rear their heads every season if not corrected, and we never see any corrections.  As they say, doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results, is the definition of insanity.  But that's what we do, the same thing over and over again.  The drafted players in our F7 are Oliver (1st), Rousseau (1st), Epenesa (2nd), and Basham (2nd).  We can add former 1st Lawson by us too if we want.   By all rights we should have a killer DL, but we don't.  It's average at best.  

 

Last offseason's correction was to assume that all we had to do was to build a team to beat KC.  Well, we see how that turned out.  What's next, spend this offseason watching to see what Cinci does and build the team to singularly beat them?  

 

Good teams, led by good coaches, have a methology that they apply, both in stocking the their teams with talent as well as their approach to game days.  We don't seem to have either.  Our approach in the draft, apparently, is just keep drafting DL-men until we hit on one.  After four seasons, let's pour all of our resources into a 33-year old LB for $60M that's going to hamstring our future, because we obviously don't know what we're doing via the draft, while rolling the dice on a single season.  Wise?   I guess that answer depends upon one's views.  

 

Our approach, we routinely seem to simply try to score as quickly as we can, often ignoring the high-percentage passing approach that would still march us down the field patiently and keep the opposing D on the field.  I know, because we've all seen our guys open in the flats or underneath or even in the backfield, often completely uncovered and ripe for a 8 or 10-yard gain easily in YAC, but we go deep, and often resulting in 3-and-outs,, ... or 4 or 5 play series.  We can't rely on our running game because it's not reliable.  If we don't score, no worries, punt, see what happens, que sera sera, and if they score, oh well, we'll just have to score now too.  Everything's ad hoc.  Granted, some of that is Allen being Allen, but who's in charge, Allen or McD.  

 

At the end of the day, this is what critics realize.  They also realize that those types of approaches are unlikely to lead us to a championship.  So in the same way that a team may give up on a good, but not great QB, or players at other positions that aren't cutting it but not necessarily bad players, so too coaching should be viewed the same way.  But unlike with individual players, not being QBs, coaches get all the credit for winning or conversely losing.  But as we know, without Allen, who carries the team on his shoulders both emotionally as well as on the field, and fair or unfair with my stance being the latter, this team is in the basement of the AFC East.  Without Allen this team is worse than the average "last 20 years team" easily.  What, Diggs and Milano are going to render it even a .500 team?  I don't think so.  

 

The problem is that it takes someone to recognize that, A, and B, be willing to do something about it.  Pegula's relatively hands-off, and who knows how preoccupied he is with his wife's situation, and Beane and McD have an odd relationship given that McD more or less hired Beane, which is bizarre enough.  What's in the contract of each we don't know.  It's difficult to imagine that McD doesn't have unusual authority for a coach, and is Beane really going to fire the guy that gave him the job to begin with since he owes him, dearly, for that opportunity.  

 

There are a lot of dynamics that relate to what you said.  There are some complexities, but at the end of the day, McD doesn't seem to have the ability, or will perhaps, to make the necessary changes, and Beane and the scouts can't seem to put together even average drafts much less the kind of drafts that bring in players like Chase, Higgins, Hubbard, Logan Wilson, etc.  Then we have to rely on free agency, at greater expense, to overcome that lack of solid drafting.  Now we're in cap hell and essentially in rebuild mode.  If Morse and his 6 concussions retires, we're in a real world of hurt.  I'm a little surprised that Allen hasn't succumbed to a significant injury by now.  He's built like a tank.  

 

As a result, it'll probably take missing the playoffs for who, Pegula, to insist that McD ain't cutting it.  It's all business until it isn't business.  

 

 

[uticaclub]

I think people forget, we were right of the doorstep on the playoffs with Rex and we got extremely lucky in 2017. If Dalton to Boyd doesnt happen, are we still defending McD as much? Allen is a freak and the division has been down, which is why we are 3 time division champs and nothing else. We peaked under this regime, changes must made

Edited January 24, 2023 by uticaclub

[PBF81]

56 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

Prior to this playoff loss, the Bills played 17 full games, losing only 3, by a combined total of 8 points. 
They lost to last year’s AFC champ by 17 points with missing or hobbled players on defense.
There are improvements to be made, but the mindset that there needs to be a complete overhaul is an unwarranted knee jerk reaction. Be careful what you wish for.  It wouldn’t take much to return to the days of 6-11 and draft talk by week 10. 

 

Viewing it alternatively, our DL wasn't all that banged up, feature three former 1st rounders and two 2nd round DEs/DTs, and we played like a 3rd-string DL against a patchwork OL missing 3 starters.  

 

Seems to me that the Front-7 needs to be overhauled.  

 

We almost nearly lost to a mediocre Miami team, at home, led by a third string QB.  

Edited January 24, 2023 by PBF81

[Nextmanup]

4 hours ago, SoMAn said:

We all had high expectations for the Bills this year, and now there’s all the predictable finger pointing, including the ‘fire McDermott’ camp. 
For perspective, look at the pre-McDermott teams that for years won 7 to 9 games annually and never sniffed the playoffs. 
In 6 seasons, the Bills have made the playoffs 5 times, including one season with journeyman QB Tyrod Taylor behind center. 
So, you want McD gone. For further perspective, examine future HOF coach Andy Reid’s history. As a head coach in Philly and KC, how many times did he miss the playoffs or lose in early rounds before getting to and winning a conference championship? 
The Bills somehow won 14 of 18 this season despite of a mountain of adversity. Shouldn’t McDermott get some credit for that? A few short years ago some of us would have given our eye teeth to enjoy a season with that many victories. 
So, you want to throw the baby out with the bath water? Who would you armchair GMs fill the coaching staff with? You’re ready to start over…again?

The culture created by Beane and McDermott has produced an attractive destination for free agents. A good draft, impact signings, and a healthier 2023 might be all that’s needed to get to the promised land. 
Silver lining: the Bills not winning the Super Bowl saved us from a lifetime of NFL Films highlights with the radio broadcast voiceover of Chris Brown screeching “Bills win” 3 octaves higher than a normal speaking voice. 😏

You are making the classic mistake of comparing McDermott to past Bills administrations, as though that is the appropriate mark of comparison.

 

It's not! 

 

The comparison is the best coaches in the game today, league wide.

 

How he compared to THOSE is how you should evaluate him.

 

The fact that Bills are historically a joke of a franchise with a record of TERRIBLE coaching is totally irrelevant to the analysis of whether to retain McDermott.

 

 

[BillsFanSD]

McDermott is arguably the best HC the Bills have ever had.  Levy was great of course, but he didn't have to deal with the salary cap and got to coach a loaded roster every year.  Without getting hung up on whether McDermott is better than Levy, let's just posit that he's really good.  

 

That said, nobody's perfect.  He's been here long enough now that we have a pretty good idea of his strengths and weaknesses as a HC, and his weaknesses are going to get called out a little when our season unexpectedly comes to an early end.  To the degree that he has a voice in the draft, our drafts have been mediocre.  He refuses to play rookies as if this is still the Bill Parcels era where rookies are seen but never heard from.  There seems to be communication issues between him and his coordinators.  But more importantly, he's built a team that's both physically and mentally soft, much like the Dungy-era Colts. We're that team that wins 12+ games every year but you don't mind seeing us in the playoffs.  That's absolutely on the HC.

 

Do I want McDermott fired?  LOL no.  I remember the drought thank you very much, and I'm enjoying our continued run of high-quality relevance.  But I do think it's fair to question whether this coach is optimized for a championship.  

[starrymessenger]

4 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

So whats your answer then?  Because only 35 coaches in the history of the league have been able to win a Super Bowl.    Coaches of all types havent made it further than McDermott.   Coaches who dont punt, coaches who do punt, coaches who go for it on 4th exclusively, coaches who dont, coaches who throw it every down, coaches who dont, offensive genius, defensive genius.      Only 35 out 518 coaches in the history of the NFL have won a Superbowl.  If I am playing the odds I am keeping the guy who gets you in the dance every year rather than firing him and taking a chance on the fact that I am so smart that I can predict the next Super Bowl winning coach with a 6% chance. 

 

 

 

 

You don't get it.
Its not that they haven't won a Super Bowl. As you point out lots of coaches and doubtless some very good ones are in the same camp. its that notwithstanding having a good record and putting up some good stats the drafting and coaching has even to fans and casual observers been a very significant reason for the teams misfortunes (and will continue to be imo). 
Now I suppose we will be told we don't know enough to understand what we are actually seeing plain as day. 13 wins. Sounds pretty good.

Edited January 24, 2023 by starrymessenger

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

McD isn’t going anywhere nor is Beane.  You guys are delusional to think otherwise.  They are smarter than you as they won’t be so reactionary.

 

Should things change and improve, sure.  Purging the two who have turned this loser franchise around for 17 years isn’t happening.  You’re wasting your breath.  You’re also proving you don’t know anything about football or a troll.

 

I believe he’ll make changes like he got rid of the ST Coach and Wallace last year.  That made sense.

I don't think many folks think he will be gone. Quite a few think he should be. I am personally ambivalent, but I absolutely see the point of concern. You have a defensive coach in an era where the most successful coaches are offensive minded. The D coach prioritizes assets for the defense which does well against average and below average teams, but struggles against better ones, especially in the playoffs. Because the weight of investment is on D, the offense is overly reliant on Josh Allen playing at superman levels for the offense to thrive. It's out of kilter. Moreover, if you want to play complimentary football, it makes more sense for a powerful, quick strike offense to be matched by a more aggressive D. Bend but don't break strategies match up with game manager qbs. 

 

What happend this last Sunday should never happen. It was an extraordinary season, emotionally difficult, but at minimum, the coaches should have been much more prepared for the tactics thrown at them. A team with three backup oline dominated. There was no adjustment, just surrender. The trenches are weak on both sides of the ball, the drafts have been mediocre, the early prime of one of the most gifted qbs in the league has been squandered. You think that kind of concern is trollish or ignorant? I'm not at all convinced that McD sees the depth of the problem or that he has the capacity to make the necessary changes. Almost certainly, he'll be given the opportunity. We'll all have to hope and pray he does, but he is on the hot seat.

[Billz4ever]

Let me just preface this by saying that I don't believe McD will be fired and I don't think he should be fired especially considering I don't like the HC candidates that are out there.

 

I'm curious though to hear what people think about where this team would be had drastic moves been made after 13 seconds...both McD and Frazier were let go, and Daboll were promoted to HC rather than going to the G-Men.

 

Would the team have been better off this season and going forward?  Yes or No and why?

 

 

 

 

[starrymessenger]

8 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Let me just preface this by saying that I don't believe McD will be fired and I don't think he should be fired especially considering I don't like the HC candidates that are out there.

 

I'm curious though to hear what people think about where this team would be had drastic moves been made after 13 seconds...both McD and Frazier were let go, and Daboll were promoted to HC rather than going to the G-Men.

 

Would the team have been better off this season and going forward?  Yes or No and why?

 

 

 

 

Team would have been better because the O would have been better. To me Dorsey is completely and hopelessly incompetent. I don't think Daboll would have encouraged Josh's worst impulses. To the contrary, as he did before he left he would have disciplined him and gotten him back on the right track. He would have revisited his mechanics, had game plans and playcalls that got the ball out of Josh's hands more quickly or given him more time in the pocket with the opportunity to step up. 

Coaches need to be tough even with star players. Dorsey can't do that. 

[Drew21PA]

OP

 

what leads you to believe this guy is really going to win a championship?

 

in crucial moments when has he won?

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, starrymessenger said:

Team would have been better because the O would have been better. To me Dorsey is completely and hopelessly incompetent. I don't think Daboll would have encouraged Josh's worst impulses. To the contrary, as he did before he left he would have disciplined him and gotten him back on the right track. He would have revisited his mechanics, had game plans and playcalls that got the ball out of Josh's hands more quickly or given him more time in the pocket with the opportunity to step up. 

Coaches need to be tough even with star players. Dorsey can't do that. 

Just playing Devil's Advocate...

 

I see what you're saying, but if Daboll were promoted to HC, there's probably a good chance Dorsey winds up as OC anyway in that scenario.  I get that Daboll would be there to oversee it all, but it could've worked out that way. 

[offyourocker]

Sadly the only justification to excuse McDermott shortcomings seems to be ‘well we sucked so much more before”

[starrymessenger]

1 minute ago, Billz4ever said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate...

 

I see what you're saying, but if Daboll were promoted to HC, there's probably a good chance Dorsey winds up as OC anyway in that scenario.  I get that Daboll would be there to oversee it all, but it could've worked out that way. 

Sure maybe Dorsey still gets promoted. Idk.
Imo there is absolutely no way that Daboll would have tolerated Dorsey's (and Josh's) style of offence. He would have taken over or drop kicked Dorsey so hard that he would have flown back to Florida without a plane.

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, starrymessenger said:

Sure maybe Dorsey still gets promoted. Idk.
Imo there is absolutely no way that Daboll would have tolerated Dorsey's (and Josh's) style of offence. He would have taken over or drop kicked Dorsey so hard that he would have flown back to Florida without a plane.

I hear you and I do believe Dorsey's playcalling seems like it feeds Josh's bad habits at times.  I think Daboll would certainly do a better job with reeling Josh back in if he gets into that hero ball mindset.

 

I saw this tweet and I found it interesting.

 

Now I know there can be many different factors that go into this, but I can't help but believe Dorsey's playcalling was a major contributing factor here.

[Pirate Angel]

Dorsey needs to go, his play calling is very "maddenish" with no attempt to commit to the running game or get our backs involved. 

[Lost]

16 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I hear you and I do believe Dorsey's playcalling seems like it feeds Josh's bad habits at times.  I think Daboll would certainly do a better job with reeling Josh back in if he gets into that hero ball mindset.

 

I saw this tweet and I found it interesting.

 

Now I know there can be many different factors that go into this, but I can't help but believe Dorsey's playcalling was a major contributing factor here.

 

I was originally for Dorsey being promoted as that's who Josh was comfortable with but looking back on it now, I feel like Dorsey is kind of in a position now since being heavily endorsed by him, will never challenge Josh Allen if he notices him start trending the wrong path as far as decision making, mechanics etc.   Josh for better or worse, owns the Buffalo Bills right now figuratively speaking.    Not saying any offensive regression is on Allen but in the case it were, I feel like Daboll was better suited to get it corrected.

[LABILLBACKER]

41 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I hear you and I do believe Dorsey's playcalling seems like it feeds Josh's bad habits at times.  I think Daboll would certainly do a better job with reeling Josh back in if he gets into that hero ball mindset.

 

I saw this tweet and I found it interesting.

 

Now I know there can be many different factors that go into this, but I can't help but believe Dorsey's playcalling was a major contributing factor here.

It took 4 years to ween Josh off the hero ball. Now it's like Josh is addicted again and Ken is his dealer.  God I wish we could somehow get Dabs back as our HC.

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

It took 4 years to ween Josh off the hero ball. Now it's like Josh is addicted again and Ken is his dealer.  God I wish we could somehow get Dabs back as our HC.

The strange part is that at the beginning of the season, it didn't seem like that.  If Josh went deep, good chance it was one-on-one coverage and the receiver had steps on the DB.

 

As the season progressed though, it started feeling like Josh was trying to force the ball into coverage much more often, relying on his arm strength trying to thread the needle and rifle the ball into a window that just wasn't there.  

 

It's like he was having a relapse and couldn't resist the urge.  

[cgg716]

6 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

So whats your answer then?  Because only 35 coaches in the history of the league have been able to win a Super Bowl.    Coaches of all types havent made it further than McDermott.   Coaches who dont punt, coaches who do punt, coaches who go for it on 4th exclusively, coaches who dont, coaches who throw it every down, coaches who dont, offensive genius, defensive genius.      Only 35 out 518 coaches in the history of the NFL have won a Superbowl.  If I am playing the odds I am keeping the guy who gets you in the dance every year rather than firing him and taking a chance on the fact that I am so smart that I can predict the next Super Bowl winning coach with a 6% chance. 

 

 

 

 

Just watch the league, it's about offense, this Tampa 2, out of touch, but nice guy ain't cutting it. And it's not unprecedented. See Dungy/Gruden Fox/Kubiak. 

[peterpan]

Eagles eagle eagles.

 

fired Andy Reid, a great coach who never won the SB, who went to the chiefs and needed the best QB in the league on a rookie contract to FINALLY get over the hump.

 

eagles hired Doug Peterson and won a SB.

 

then they fired Doug Peterson.

 

now they are inching towards another SB(appearance at least).

 

Eagles prove you can fire a hood coach and get a better one in the process.

[CoudyBills]

I guess I can get used to horrible playoff losses, it's not like they've ever actually accomplished anything anyway.

[Victory Formation]

I love McD, he comes across as a phenomenal person and it is very plain to see why players love playing for him but there is a reason why he was the only coach in the divisional round that came from a defensive background.

 

The bottom line is simple, Josh Allen will have no stability as far as coaching is concerned so long as McD is the HC. If we have a great season next year someone will poach Dorsey from us. Heck if we fired Dorsey and hired Frank Reich to be our OC and we had another great season he would likely be poached also.

 

So long as we have a defensive minded HC we will have no stability on offense and there will be a constant coaching carousel. Don’t hire Frank Reich to be our OC, hire him to be our HC! Or better yet, poach Brian Callahan from the team that brutally kicked our ass in the playoffs.

 

Love McD, good coach, wonderful human being but we need to move on.

[Best Williams Available]

7 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I don't want McDermott fired.  What I want to see is some demonstration of a learning curve where he evolves his thinking and decision making based on experience and learning from similar situations.  Not a HC that keeps making blunders over and over along with being unaware or unwilling to see it and become a better decision maker.

The guy is still a terrible clock and time out manager, as well as red flag “challenger”. He showed glimpses of being able to change personnel in-season early in his tenure. But frankly, not much has changed. He hasn’t. He actually likely takes pride in being a steadfast rock of consistency (like Tonkin). He will go down taking his moral high road and sticking to his guns.

7 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

It doesn't matter what the coa hing success was before McD. Does it matter that Bill Walsh was great in the past when deciding if Shanahan is good enough for the 49ers to win the SuperBowl. These past comparisons are irrelevant to the decision at hand. 

The decision is would another HC do better with the roster we have now? Or would new coordinators with the same HC do better? What Doug Marrone did or didn't do with the roster he had is irrelevant. 

The timing of McD’s arrival immediately post-drought gives people the impression that he single-handedly saved the damn franchise. The first playoff year was a fluke! Every time after they had Josh Allen.

[ArtVandalay]

7 hours ago, SoMAn said:

We all had high expectations for the Bills this year, and now there’s all the predictable finger pointing, including the ‘fire McDermott’ camp. 
For perspective, look at the pre-McDermott teams that for years won 7 to 9 games annually and never sniffed the playoffs. 
In 6 seasons, the Bills have made the playoffs 5 times, including one season with journeyman QB Tyrod Taylor behind center. 
So, you want McD gone. For further perspective, examine future HOF coach Andy Reid’s history. As a head coach in Philly and KC, how many times did he miss the playoffs or lose in early rounds before getting to and winning a conference championship? 
The Bills somehow won 14 of 18 this season despite of a mountain of adversity. Shouldn’t McDermott get some credit for that? A few short years ago some of us would have given our eye teeth to enjoy a season with that many victories. 
So, you want to throw the baby out with the bath water? Who would you armchair GMs fill the coaching staff with? You’re ready to start over…again?

The culture created by Beane and McDermott has produced an attractive destination for free agents. A good draft, impact signings, and a healthier 2023 might be all that’s needed to get to the promised land. 
Silver lining: the Bills not winning the Super Bowl saved us from a lifetime of NFL Films highlights with the radio broadcast voiceover of Chris Brown screeching “Bills win” 3 octaves higher than a normal speaking voice. 😏

And now some perspective for you... from the year the Bills made the playoffs with Josh Allen vs the Texans, the Bengals had a 1 win season, drafted Joe Burrow, he had reconstructive knee surgery, went to a super bowl and now completely out coached and embarassed the Bills in their own house. 

 

The Bills were bad 8 years ago is not an excuse for someone to keep their job. 

 

The Bills weren't bad because they never had a decent coach, they were bad because they had awful QB play for years and a cheap owner that refused to invest into the team, facilities, staff, infrastructure. Now we have the QB and owner situation resolved but this coach has proven he is not the caliber coach to win in the playoffs, lacks scheme and gameplanning ability, and his style of football does not fit what this team has now become -- he's a tractor tailor driver behind the wheel of a Ferrari. 

 

Also please note Andy Reid did not win a Super Bowl in Philadelphia and the Eagles actually went on to win a Super Bowl after firing him sooner than he ended up winning one with Patrick Mahomes, and now they are both in the conference Chamionships with Siriani lined up as likely coach of the year. 

 

The final straw for McDermott is his continued playoff failures from horrendous game planning/management and decision making. 13 seconds was one of the worst coaching collapses in history, he should have been fired, but instead he got what should be a mercy year this year. There has been zero improvement from him on the playoffs what so ever.

 

We can't hold him to a different standard than the rest of the team and hold the franchise back as a result. This team is the Buffalo Bills, not the Buffalo McDermotts.

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

Ever read the book “The Peter Principle”?  It sums up how I’m starting to feel about McProcess. 

[Best Williams Available]

I’m regularly astounded at the average Bills fans contentment/satisfaction with “just being relevant.” 

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, Billz4ever said:

The strange part is that at the beginning of the season, it didn't seem like that.  If Josh went deep, good chance it was one-on-one coverage and the receiver had steps on the DB.

 

As the season progressed though, it started feeling like Josh was trying to force the ball into coverage much more often, relying on his arm strength trying to thread the needle and rifle the ball into a window that just wasn't there.  

 

It's like he was having a relapse and couldn't resist the urge.  

I think the lack of dependable targets underneath steered Josh elsewhere. You can only have guys drop it so many times. 

[Ga boy]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

You raise some interesting points here.  

 

To start, I've always maintained that had our SB era teams had Parcells, Johnson, or Gibbs instead of Levy, we'd have won at least two of those SBs.  Not the Redskins one, they were simply the better team that year, but not so in the other three.  I distinctly recall after halftime of that fourth SB, the one where we led 13-6 at the half, I was at my friend's SB party in West Seneca, and after the half the Cowboys came running out of the tunnel, helmets on, fist-pumping and jacked to play.  

 

Then here come our players, Bruce Smith WALKING out of the tunnel, helmet in hand, looking down at the turf, sloooowly WALKING out onto the field with the rest of the players.  I remember being damn near speechless, looked to my Bills game buddy, and said "This game's over!"  And it was.  We got our asses handed to us 24-0 in the 2nd half.  

 

I distinctly recall the on-field reporters saying what the lockerrooms were like.  The one from the Cowboys locker room said that Jimmy Johnson was swearing up a storm and throwing chairs around.  ... So what was Marv doing?  Apparently, according to them, he was reading Hemmingway (or some famous author) quotes to the team.  Seriously.  I don't think we even need to discuss the rest of the game or why it unfolded as it did.  I mean talking about sedating your team.  

 

McD's a great guy, fantastic guy.  And we went thru an unprecedented circumstance, from which we should have recovered by gameday here.  But at the end of the day, we're not talking about a bunch of guys that get together for a free meal at the end of a long hard work week, to play football to represent their city.  We're talking about paid professionals, very highly paid professionals.  That "family" mentality cannot overcome the professional/team mentality apart from a brief period within which to grieve, as we all had. 

 

We all thought that the Miami game was bad, and I'm sure many of us wrote it off as the "hangover game," which it should have been.  It was for us fans.  But it was McD's job to have this team overcome that for this past game.  He failed, miserably, and it's clearly coaching that set the tone for eveyrone coming out flat.  That Cinci game was the worst game of the season, easily.  So these excuses as to how hard it's been on the team don't resonate well with a lot of fans.  Many of the same fans have unexpressed hardships in their lives too.  Suppose Hamlin has a serious set-back, as his family put out via the media over the weekend, and something worse happens?  Is it going to impact their play next season too?   Everyone has to deal with this in their own way, personally.  I get that the team is a family of sorts, but I'd wager that if we asked Hamlin what he thought of the game as he watched it, he wouldn't be very happy about it.  

 

I get the same exact impression with McD as I got with Marv.  If we had Reid, Taylor, and possibly even Sirianni, Shanahan, Pederson, or even a few others, that we'd be playing better overall football in general.  You watch those teams, particularly Cinci and KC, there's a more methodical approach to them.  We don't have one.  It's entirely shoot-from-the-hip game-planning and tactics, if we can even call them tactics.  Those are terminal issues for a coaching staff, for a team.  They WILL rear their heads every season if not corrected, and we never see any corrections.  As they say, doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results, is the definition of insanity.  But that's what we do, the same thing over and over again.  The drafted players in our F7 are Oliver (1st), Rousseau (1st), Epenesa (2nd), and Basham (2nd).  We can add former 1st Lawson by us too if we want.   By all rights we should have a killer DL, but we don't.  It's average at best.  

 

Last offseason's correction was to assume that all we had to do was to build a team to beat KC.  Well, we see how that turned out.  What's next, spend this offseason watching to see what Cinci does and build the team to singularly beat them?  

 

Good teams, led by good coaches, have a methology that they apply, both in stocking the their teams with talent as well as their approach to game days.  We don't seem to have either.  Our approach in the draft, apparently, is just keep drafting DL-men until we hit on one.  After four seasons, let's pour all of our resources into a 33-year old LB for $60M that's going to hamstring our future, because we obviously don't know what we're doing via the draft, while rolling the dice on a single season.  Wise?   I guess that answer depends upon one's views.  

 

Our approach, we routinely seem to simply try to score as quickly as we can, often ignoring the high-percentage passing approach that would still march us down the field patiently and keep the opposing D on the field.  I know, because we've all seen our guys open in the flats or underneath or even in the backfield, often completely uncovered and ripe for a 8 or 10-yard gain easily in YAC, but we go deep, and often resulting in 3-and-outs,, ... or 4 or 5 play series.  We can't rely on our running game because it's not reliable.  If we don't score, no worries, punt, see what happens, que sera sera, and if they score, oh well, we'll just have to score now too.  Everything's ad hoc.  Granted, some of that is Allen being Allen, but who's in charge, Allen or McD.  

 

At the end of the day, this is what critics realize.  They also realize that those types of approaches are unlikely to lead us to a championship.  So in the same way that a team may give up on a good, but not great QB, or players at other positions that aren't cutting it but not necessarily bad players, so too coaching should be viewed the same way.  But unlike with individual players, not being QBs, coaches get all the credit for winning or conversely losing.  But as we know, without Allen, who carries the team on his shoulders both emotionally as well as on the field, and fair or unfair with my stance being the latter, this team is in the basement of the AFC East.  Without Allen this team is worse than the average "last 20 years team" easily.  What, Diggs and Milano are going to render it even a .500 team?  I don't think so.  

 

The problem is that it takes someone to recognize that, A, and B, be willing to do something about it.  Pegula's relatively hands-off, and who knows how preoccupied he is with his wife's situation, and Beane and McD have an odd relationship given that McD more or less hired Beane, which is bizarre enough.  What's in the contract of each we don't know.  It's difficult to imagine that McD doesn't have unusual authority for a coach, and is Beane really going to fire the guy that gave him the job to begin with since he owes him, dearly, for that opportunity.  

 

There are a lot of dynamics that relate to what you said.  There are some complexities, but at the end of the day, McD doesn't seem to have the ability, or will perhaps, to make the necessary changes, and Beane and the scouts can't seem to put together even average drafts much less the kind of drafts that bring in players like Chase, Higgins, Hubbard, Logan Wilson, etc.  Then we have to rely on free agency, at greater expense, to overcome that lack of solid drafting.  Now we're in cap hell and essentially in rebuild mode.  If Morse and his 6 concussions retires, we're in a real world of hurt.  I'm a little surprised that Allen hasn't succumbed to a significant injury by now.  He's built like a tank.  

 

As a result, it'll probably take missing the playoffs for who, Pegula, to insist that McD ain't cutting it.  It's all business until it isn't business.  

 

 

Agree 95%.  Your comparison of Levy with peer coaches has some similarity;  however, I wonder if some other style of coaching would’ve worked with that cast of characters.  It’s only a maybe that Parcells and Gibbs could’ve gotten a ring.  The present coach is safe and he knows it.  If his job was at risk, he might make some changes.  I don’t see him doing much house cleaning, and he’s the only one who can do it, but he won’t.  He thinks the problem is something other than coaching.  He’s both a players’ coach and a coaches’ coach.  That is the culture he believes in.  No changes.  Just watch.

[JimBob2232]

I honestly don't think it's having the wrong guy driving the bus.  This team just peaked way too early, got decimated by injuries, then emotionally destroyed, and couldn't  pull it back together.  That's a tall order.   The September bills team wins the Super Bowl hands down.  But obviously that's not when superbowls are won.  And it's also apparent to me this team struggles in the cold weather grind it out kinds of games that you have to play in January in Buffalo.  

 

The Super Bowl winning teams are peaking at the end. We need a power running game that we can go to when it's 10 degrees and a foot of snow.  Give Allen a legit running game and things change.  Im not smart enough to know if that's the line, or the RB, or the coaching (or all of it) - but McDermott/Beane need to figure that out and get a running game.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, ArtVandalay said:

And now some perspective for you... from the year the Bills made the playoffs with Josh Allen vs the Texans, the Bengals had a 1 win season, drafted Joe Burrow, he had reconstructive knee surgery, went to a super bowl and now completely out coached and embarassed the Bills in their own house. 

 

The Bills were bad 8 years ago is not an excuse for someone to keep their job. 

 

The Bills weren't bad because they never had a decent coach, they were bad because they had awful QB play for years and a cheap owner that refused to invest into the team, facilities, staff, infrastructure. Now we have the QB and owner situation resolved but this coach has proven he is not the caliber coach to win in the playoffs, lacks scheme and gameplanning ability, and his style of football does not fit what this team has now become -- he's a tractor tailor driver behind the wheel of a Ferrari. 

 

Also please note Andy Reid did not win a Super Bowl in Philadelphia and the Eagles actually went on to win a Super Bowl after firing him sooner than he ended up winning one with Patrick Mahomes, and now they are both in the conference Chamionships with Siriani lined up as likely coach of the year. 

 

The final straw for McDermott is his continued playoff failures from horrendous game planning/management and decision making. 13 seconds was one of the worst coaching collapses in history, he should have been fired, but instead he got what should be a mercy year this year. There has been zero improvement from him on the playoffs what so ever.

 

We can't hold him to a different standard than the rest of the team and hold the franchise back as a result. This team is the Buffalo Bills, not the Buffalo McDermotts.

 

I'll suggest without Josh Allen and his Superman impersonation this Bills team is a 6 or 7 win roster and organization.  While McDermott the person seems like a good guy Sean the coach has some shortcomings that experience isn't eliminating.  A bold move from ownership is needed.  But unlikely to happen.

[PBF81]

5 hours ago, Pirate Angel said:

Dorsey needs to go, his play calling is very "maddenish" with no attempt to commit to the running game or get our backs involved. 

 

Dorsey was a prolific legendary QB at The U.  Sometimes I wonder whether he's trying to be the same QB vicariously through Allen.  I realize that's odd, but then again that's how he seems to call games, exactly as if he's playing a video game.  

[BillyBilliams]

McDermott didn’t change this franchise around.  Josh Allen did.  McD is holding this team back with his piss poor game management and piss poor coaching decisions.