Question for OC Dorsey

[JerseyBills]

3 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

Even if players are open, 50 yard passes downfield are low percentage plays. The pass has to be good and the catch had to be good. If you are winning by 3 scores kill the clock get some first downs and get the heck out of there.

Ya I was saying that all day. I get they were attacking 1 on 1 but you gotta take the easy conversions. Especially with a lead

[Ray Finkel]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

Bills have scored 34, 35, 35 and 32 their last 4 games. That's usually good enough to win if a Defense is doing their part. Frazier and soft zone coverage will be the end of our season. You can't continue to play that crap against playoff teams. Our front 4 without Von is pedestrian and allows even the most novice of QBs time to make plays against our "bend not break" D. Please don't spew stats at me because we all know this group is underperforming and not putting lesser competition away. 

Joe Burrow will carve us up without no pass rush.

[gobills404]

2 hours ago, AlfaBill said:

His offensive play calling also put Miami back in this game. 

Yeah I don’t understand why he called the “turn the ball over” play 3 times this game

[BaaadThingsMan]

8 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Motor ran better than Cook imo 

 

I want Cook/Hines backfield.  We saw it 1 game for like 15 plays and it disappeared after. 

Motor needs some too.

 

I'd like to see Cook in the passing game a little more. 

[JerseyBills]

Just now, BaaadThingsMan said:

Motor needs some too.

 

I'd like to see Cook in the passing game a little more. 

Same. All the RBs need more involvement in the pass gm. Allen just refuses those easy yards and always pushes downfield. Been saying this since 2019

[Trogdor]

1 hour ago, Carmel Corn said:

IMHO - Dorsey has failed to develop a strategy for the opposition pass rush.  Josh is getting rushed on many plays and they need more quick outlet options vs. having him wait to throw further downfield or get sacked.

Tbf he doesn't look for or use outlets when he had them. 

 

[ndirish1978]

Our offense had devolved to "run down the middle or huck it 30+ yards down the field", I do not understand what the heck Dorsey is thinking sometimes.

[Buffarukus]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

The plays may have been fine but it’s a tempo/feel thing.  Bills were up 17 nothing and ripped off two great long runs and he dials up a bomb that gets picked.  Maybe it was Josh audibling and Smoke shouldn’t have stopped but it was the worst thing to call at that moment of the game and it seemed to completely change the rhythm of it all.  It’s a game flow thing that gets me with Dorsey - he needs to be Josh’s governor but instead, it’s like he’s up in the booth eating pop rocks and chugging 4 Loco.

 

how much of this is on Dorsey tho? im really starting to think the tempo is on josh. every time we are in field goal range and its 3rd down..im concerned. its boom or complete bust time and im not sure it will change as it hasn't regardless how many redzone turnovers are given up. this season, its been alot.

 

its exciting to see a cross body throw as his foot is landing out of bounds but it is happening regardless of situation. if a play breaks down its ok to throw it away or DUMP and see if yac can make it happen. the guy constantly plays like we are down by 2 scores in the fourth when we are up sometimes by alot. 3 more points and giving the D good position to start is far more important then him possibly dodging 3 sacks that knock us out of points or getting a last sec pass off. hes very good at that, but sometimes we really dont need that risk reward. 

 

he's got to trust his guys to make plays. dump it short if its not open. use the R in rpo a bit more. if the run is working audable out of a pass until they stop it even when a pass is called. 

 

we get these leads and then just seem to go out of our way to let teams right back in it. 

 

last 2 weeks we got away with it....barely. 

[SoMAn]

3 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I thought they forced a lot of throwaways and wasted downs with those light rushes and loaded coverages.

Miami had under 250 yrds of total offense on only 3.3 yrds/play and went 4/16 on 3rd down.

Frazier was not a problem today, imo

Mostly agree, though it could easily have been a different outcome with a more experienced passer and a few less drops by Miami receivers. 

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, JMM said:

Are you familiar with the following concepts: RB screen, TE screen, bubble screen, draw, delayed draw, quick slant, quick out, go and stop, etc.  I'm no OC, but it seems to me that there are experts in the NFL that believe these are effective concepts against cover zero. Thanks for your attention.  Now...back to calling your seven step drop duo go routes.....

I saw one screen, at least one screen attempted, and it got blown up

[Big Blitz]

Makes sense putting this here actually 

 

D playing zero is expecting quick throws - expecting you to have no time to throw deep.  
 

I’m sure there are hot route options but it looked today like Allen and Dorsey were in “we’re going to make them pay” mode.  Which paid off but led to at least 1 INT and 7 sacks but no telling what the thought process on each was.   

 

 

 

 

 

Bottom line - whatever the plan is this week we can’t have multiple turnovers.  Probably going to have 1.  But…..need 40 points.  

[ExiledInIllinois]

6 hours ago, Einstein said:

His offense scored 34 points despite having 3 turnovers.

Solid.

AND WON! And broke a pretty bad streak in the process!

 

"The Dolphins converted Allen's three turnovers -- two interceptions and the lost fumble -- into 18 points, all of which were scored from the six-minute mark in the second quarter to the first minute of the third quarter on Allen's fumble. It was the first time in franchise history that the Bills have won a playoff game despite losing the turnover battle 3-2 (previously 0-13 in those games)."

[Sierra Foothills]

6 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

We have to get back to josh running the ball  to have any chance against Bengals or Chiefs.  

 

6 hours ago, mannc said:

Anyone know why that didn’t work today?  Were they spying him?  Just seemed like Josh had nowhere to go.

 

Yes, extensive spying today.

 

5 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

That looked identical to the one Brown caught last week against NE.  A better throw and it could have been a TD

 

Agree that the INT was more on Brown than on Josh.

 

[Boatdrinks]

6 hours ago, JMM said:

Are you familiar with the following concepts: RB screen, TE screen, bubble screen, draw, delayed draw, quick slant, quick out, go and stop, etc.  I'm no OC, but it seems to me that there are experts in the NFL that believe these are effective concepts against cover zero. Thanks for your attention.  Now...back to calling your seven step drop duo go routes.....

Would be a good idea if the Bills could actually execute an effective screen. We’ve seen enough to know they cannot. 

[MJS]

6 hours ago, Simon said:

He went a bit Dabollish a couple times but I thought he called a good game for most of the day

Yes. Most issues were due to player execution. Dorsey isn't out there telling Josh to throw the go route every time either. Josh was just a little flustered from getting blitzed all night.

 

This season, I think the main issues have been, in order, 1) Receivers letting Josh down, 2) Josh making bad decisions, 3) the oline not giving enough protection, and lastly 4) Dorsey play calling.

 

Yes, play calling has occasionally been an issue, including in this game, but I think the other issues I mentioned have been worse.

 

And even with all of that we had one of the best offenses and win/loss records in the league.

[Buffalo03]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

Yes. Most issues were due to player execution. Dorsey isn't out there telling Josh to throw the go route every time either. Josh was just a little flustered from getting blitzed all night.

 

This season, I think the main issues have been, in order, 1) Receivers letting Josh down, 2) Josh making bad decisions, 3) the oline not giving enough protection, and lastly 4) Dorsey play calling.

 

Yes, play calling has occasionally been an issue, including in this game, but I think the other issues I mentioned have been worse.

 

And even with all of that we had one of the best offenses and win/loss records in the league.

He's sending all WRs on deeper routes every play. That's not Josh's fault either. That's why Allen is a lot more turnover prone this season. Every play has 4 WRs running routes that are 20 or more yards up the field. That's on Dorsey, not Allen

[John from Riverside]

10 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Ya I was saying that all day. I get they were attacking 1 on 1 but you gotta take the easy conversions. Especially with a lead

When Josh connects on them, we love him whenever. He throws the perfect pass in the wide receiver drops it he gets criticism you can’t love people in slices you have to take the whole pie.

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, Simon said:

 

 

This is a great post.

I hated the fact that the turnover came on first down but at that point in the game they were having really good success finding openings in the secondary on 1st downs and I get what he was trying to do on that particular down. I wonder what Josh passed up to chuck that prayer instead; I'd bet that one of his first two options was available and he couldn't help himself

 

I think the route was designed to go to Knox running towards the sideline. I think Brown is supposed to be a decoy that takes the safety deep but the safety squats on the Knox route (was still there to complete but the safety would have been in position to tackle) leaving Brown 1v1 with the corner which Josh sees - he sort of pumps, sees the safety squat and then reloads and goes long. But I don't think Brown is expecting the pass hence he doesn't really complete his route.

 

But it was 1st down and he had Morris wide open for an easy check down for 4 or 5 yards so if he didn't like the Knox throw that was where he should have gone IMO. Up 17-3, on 1st down, no need to launch that even if Brown is 1v1.

 

[nucci]

12 hours ago, Beast said:

If Shakir was able to hang onto a ball and Josh was a little more accurate on those deep balls the Bills would have hung a 50 burger on the Fish.

 

 

but a 34 burger was enough

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

When Josh connects on them, we love him whenever. He throws the perfect pass in the wide receiver drops it he gets criticism you can’t love people in slices you have to take the whole pie.

 

This is unquestionably true. I never want Josh to just be a paint by numbers guy because it is his ability to do the exceptional that makes him special not his ability to do the routine exceptionally consistently. He is Favre not Brady. 

 

But some of those errors yesterday felt unforced and need cleaning up.

[PayDaBill$]

Need to dial down the hero ball with a few more conservative plays. TE, slants, outs - quick hitters & check down every once in awhile.  Run motor & Cook (who is going to break something given enough opportunities).
We’ll still get our points but probably less TO’s in the process.

 

The back to back HR chucks were ridiculous.  That particular series was amateurish.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by PayDaBill$

[Epstein's Mother]

My takeaway from all of this is...

 

there's plenty of blame to go around for this win.

[Coach Tuesday]

13 hours ago, Simon said:

 

That was bothering me too.

I do think the depth the Phish secondary was setting up in ahd something to do with that.

They were still available with some minor tweaking though.

 

This is a great post.

I hated the fact that the turnover came on first down but at that point in the game they were having really good success finding openings in the secondary on 1st downs and I get what he was trying to do on that particular down. I wonder what Josh passed up to chuck that prayer instead; I'd bet that one of his first two options was available and he couldn't help himself

 

So apparently the play was designed to go to Knox, with some good underneath options if Knox wasn't available.  That's all per the Twitterverse so who knows but it sounds right.  Brown apparently was running a clearout route, which would explain why he did not expect the ball.  If that's all true, I'm not sure what Dorsey is supposed to do.  He can't keep all the routes short because that will crowd the backfield.  Allen simply refuses to play within the structure of the offense despite it hurting the team multiple times this season.  He gives the obligatory "I made some bad decisions and I'll learn from it" quip at the end of the game but the words ring hollow at this point - he's just not yet a grownup.  I love the guy, he's my favorite athlete to root for, ever, but he is not a grownup.  As I said elsewhere, it may take him having to stew an entire offseason about throwing away a playoff game for him to change his ways.  Last year's AFCCG was the opposite - the hero ball worked, the post-season narrative was all about how if Josh got the ball back, he would've scored again - the NFL even changed the rules to make sure Josh will get the ball back next time.  If anything it added kerosene to the fire.  At this point I just don't know what will get him to change.  Whatever it is, Dorsey isn't up to it - he treats Dorsey like a substitute teacher.

[T master]

13 hours ago, Einstein said:

His offense scored 34 points despite having 3 turnovers.

Solid.

 

Agree but he has so much more to work with & just because Josh can throw it 60 yds on a rope doesn't mean he has to do it every other play he has so many weapons why not use them more ?

 

If he did the score could be 50+ every game & this week he will need to do some things that they haven't put on tape this season to win because the Bengals D isn't bad at all & the Bills D better be prepared because this game can be a statement game either way for or against the Bills .

 

And i would rather it be for the Bills than the alternative ! GO BILLS !!! 

Edited January 16, 2023 by T master

[JohnNord]

14 hours ago, JMM said:

Are you familiar with the following concepts: RB screen, TE screen, bubble screen, draw, delayed draw, quick slant, quick out, go and stop, etc.  I'm no OC, but it seems to me that there are experts in the NFL that believe these are effective concepts against cover zero. Thanks for your attention.  Now...back to calling your seven step drop duo go routes.....

There has to be a reason why the Bills never run screens.  It wasn’t just Dorsey, they didn’t run many with Daboll last season either. 

[MJS]

2 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

He's sending all WRs on deeper routes every play. That's not Josh's fault either. That's why Allen is a lot more turnover prone this season. Every play has 4 WRs running routes that are 20 or more yards up the field. That's on Dorsey, not Allen

He isn't really. Allen has check downs on every play that he can go to.

[Coach Tuesday]

4 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

There has to be a reason why the Bills never run screens.  It wasn’t just Dorsey, they didn’t run many with Daboll last season either. 

 

They lack athletic linemen to execute those plays.  Morse is the only one who can move around in space well.  The rest of the o-line are plodders and maulers.  It's a symptom of competing goals - McD wants to be able to power-run and they've brought on bigger linemen throughout Beane's tenure.  But that's not a scheme that meshes well with what Josh is able to do.

[Jauronimo]

13 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Romo did point out that Brown let up on the route. Seems to be lots of miscommunications like that. 

Brown had inside leverage on the DB and then went outside.  Allen threw the ball to the inside.  Not sure who made the mistake on that play.

[JohnNord]

4 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

They lack athletic linemen to execute those plays.  Morse is the only one who can move around in space well.  The rest of the o-line are plodders and maulers.  It's a symptom of competing goals - McD wants to be able to power-run and they've brought on bigger linemen throughout Beane's tenure.  But that's not a scheme that meshes well with what Josh is able to do.

I’m not so sure that’s true.
 

Brown has an excelled RAS score and players like Bates and Dawkins should be able to get out in space.  I just don’t know what the issue is…

[Logic]

There were multiple receivers open underneath throughout the game and Allen chose not to throw to them.

If you have the means to go back and watch yesterday's game, particularly the 3rd and 4th quarters, where everyone was screaming about the go routes and whatnot...I suggest you do it. 

There were open receivers underneath. Knox, Singletary, Cook, Morris, Beasley, sometimes Diggs. There was always a short outlet option, and that option was quite open more often than not.

Josh chose not to go to those options. He chose to push it downfield, over and over. 

Don't get me wrong -- Dorsey really frustrates me at times. I, too, would like to see various changes to the offense. Still, the complete refusal of some to hold our quarterback accountable for some of these periods of offensive struggle infuriates me. I know that pushing the ball downfield is who Josh Allen IS and always will be, but when you watch the game back and see multiple options underneath, only to see Josh repeatedly choose the low percentage deep shot even when it's situationally not intelligent to do so...it doesn't hold water with me to just blame Dorsey for all of it.

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Logic said:

There were multiple receivers open underneath throughout the game and Allen chose not to throw to them.

If you have the means to go back and watch yesterday's game, particularly the 3rd and 4th quarters, where everyone was screaming about the go routes and whatnot...I suggest you do it. 

There were open receivers underneath. Knox, Singletary, Cook, Morris, Beasley, sometimes Diggs. There was always a short outlet option, and that option was quite open more often than not.

Josh chose not to go to those options. He chose to push it downfield, over and over. 

Don't get me wrong -- Dorsey really frustrates me at times. I, too, would like to see various changes to the offense. Still, the complete refusal of some to hold our quarterback accountable for some of these periods of offensive struggle infuriates me. I know that pushing the ball downfield is who Josh Allen IS and always will be, but when you watch the game back and see multiple options underneath, only to see Josh repeatedly choose the low percentage deep shot even when it's situationally not intelligent to do so...it doesn't hold water with me to just blame Dorsey for all of it.

34 points

[Coach Tuesday]

26 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I’m not so sure that’s true.
 

Brown has an excelled RAS score and players like Bates and Dawkins should be able to get out in space.  I just don’t know what the issue is…

 

I do not understand how Brown logged that RAS score during the predraft process.  I mean, I don't dispute that he achieved it, but when you watch him play his feet are heavy and slow.  He is an enigma to me - he does not play his position like a high-level athlete.

[Logic]

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

34 points

What's your point? I am aware of how many points the Bills scored yesterday. 

My post is in response to the vast swaths of Bills fans blaming Dorsey for any and all offensive struggles. 

My response is that Allen bears his share of the blame, too. 



 

[FireChans]

24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

34 points

Perfect game! I’ll tell Josh.

[Shemp]

Seems like Josh is regressing.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

15 hours ago, Beast said:

If Shakir was able to hang onto a ball and Josh was a little more accurate on those deep balls the Bills would have hung a 50 burger on the Fish.

 

 

At least…people are so used to teams selling out to stop the deep ball but Miami did the opposite.  Had to take the shots in single coverage on the outside because receivers in the middle of the field were getting mauled.  

[GoBills808]

14 minutes ago, Logic said:

What's your point? I am aware of how many points the Bills scored yesterday. 

My post is in response to the vast swaths of Bills fans blaming Dorsey for any and all offensive struggles. 

My response is that Allen bears his share of the blame, too. 



 

The point is the struggles are imaginary

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

44 minutes ago, Logic said:

There were multiple receivers open underneath throughout the game and Allen chose not to throw to them.

If you have the means to go back and watch yesterday's game, particularly the 3rd and 4th quarters, where everyone was screaming about the go routes and whatnot...I suggest you do it. 

There were open receivers underneath. Knox, Singletary, Cook, Morris, Beasley, sometimes Diggs. There was always a short outlet option, and that option was quite open more often than not.

Josh chose not to go to those options. He chose to push it downfield, over and over. 

Don't get me wrong -- Dorsey really frustrates me at times. I, too, would like to see various changes to the offense. Still, the complete refusal of some to hold our quarterback accountable for some of these periods of offensive struggle infuriates me. I know that pushing the ball downfield is who Josh Allen IS and always will be, but when you watch the game back and see multiple options underneath, only to see Josh repeatedly choose the low percentage deep shot even when it's situationally not intelligent to do so...it doesn't hold water with me to just blame Dorsey for all of it.

I really didn’t see a lot of open underneath receivers honestly…and on a few plays where there were it was a situation where gabe Davis had two steps against single coverage or shakir was wide open for a 50 yard gain or something like that.  If you don’t want your qb taking those shots he shouldn’t be starting.

He certainly has had games where he passed up underneath attempts for risky deep throws before but the game yesterday was not a good example of that 

 

it was really the short throw to Beasley that sunk his game…a deep int is not the end of the world it’s pretty similar to a punt. 
 

miami was very handsy on all the routes and it was effecting the underneath receivers the most 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Shemp]

The Dolphins blitzed on 52% of their plays yesterday. Seven sacks with Allen's frequent deep dropbacks. Bills need to quicken the release of the ball to counter the blitz, which may be the blueprint of future playoff game defenses against the Bills since it was so successful against him yesterday.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

12 minutes ago, Blah Blah said:

The Dolphins blitzed on 52% of their plays yesterday. Seven sacks with Allen's frequent deep dropbacks. Bills need to quicken the release of the ball to counter the blitz, which may be the blueprint of future playoff game defenses against the Bills since it was so successful against him yesterday.

They were also jamming all the receivers (cough cough holding) and giving the corners little to no help over the top.  We had the right gameplan to win just one very unlucky turnover(ironically on a short throw) and that fumble td. People just don’t like it because we’ve thrown deep when we didn’t really need to in prior games so they’re not seeing this one objectively 

 

Absolutely no one will try to duplicate this dolphins game plan…they had to go for broke because they were such a big underdog.  If we hit on a couple more of those wide open deep balls, we probably drop 60 that game.  I don’t think anyone could duplicate it even if they wanted to…Miami has much better pass rushers than cincy or kc currently. 
 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan