TUA in Concussion Protocol Again!

[DrPJax]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Unreal. The one guy that probably needs to be observed more than any other and they miss it again. 

     Really good point. It is a good learning point. First , he is more at risk as you pointed out with 2 prior concussions THIS season.  It shows things can develop after the hit as he self reported symptoms later.  I’m not sure if he reported during the game or today and then was placed in the protocol, BUT HE COMPLETED THE GAME ! It does definitely prove the “ neurological spotter” missed the play and whiplash smack into the turf. For a multibillion dollar industry , this needs improvement. .  I think it can be and the NFL can’t be cost conscious over safety issues with this. 
 

This game moves too fast and is stretched over a large area where head injuries can happen. With missing this obvious situation it has be proof that they have understaffed the observers whose job is solely to watch for head injuries. They have multiple refs because of the games speed and multiple areas of action , so the same thought process should apply for head injury observation. I admit I don’t  know how many observers they use per game but it must not be enough, just knowing the NFL , they probably started with as few as possible. 

 

I think they need to at a minimum do something like this ;      1) just like they have a central area for reviewing calls in New York , they need to set up a bank of screens for medical reviews with someone devoted to each game ( assuming this isn’t already going on ) 

      2) set up observers who are constants for each venue , so they remove as much subjectivity and variation as possible ,and be sure these observers are taught , have a course they must pass every two years like cpr/ acls as a model. You need trained, certified observers. There are many physician assistants / arnp’s / nurses etc. who could do this for extra money or retired / disabled Drs who could be great for this. Whatever criteria they choose tho , I think some prior form of medical background would be helpful as experience counts. 
      3) they need to break the area to be observed into manageable quadrants. You can’t expect one observer to cover the whole field as the action point changes , for example on pass plays.  The focus moves from qb to wr/ db area or wherever tackles will happen. If the observer shifts his view away from the qb to the wr , a late fall or hit on the qb is easily missed.   Again, I don’t know if they already do this but if so , how did they miss Tuas head bouncing off the turf as it appears happened this week? The game moves so fast and they should break down the areas a certain observer is responsible for.  For example. one would be responsible  to always follow only the qb as they are at very high risk; another should be assigned to observe the line area , and then a third could be assigned to follow where ever the ball goes and evaluate the area where the tackles occur.  
 

This is just a quick thought and could be tweaked with football and neurological experts, but the point is there is no way to have just a single person  responsible for evaluating multiple areas of contact that happen in a few seconds. This is a pretty inexpensive way to help protect players before someone dies and the NFL is sued again and forced to make changes.  Plus you have the “ bank” of people  watching each game in New York and it can’t be the same people reviewing penalties. You need a separate group who know medical issues, have training just as the refs do to perform their jobs, and this makes helps ensure safety  for multiple medical issues addressed in a reliable , reproducible way. Plus as a corporation, you want liability protection and the current system seems inadequate.

 

     The final step I would do is if the NFLPA is actually concerned , they have to help, share liability risks as well.  For example , I would devise a quick form with  5 questions on it that is given to each player , personalized with their name / number. Those questions are quick cognitive checks that can be checked off in a min at half time.  One question , and you vary where it’s placed on the form weekly , could  be something like are you having any new issues of concern that are new since the game started , like headache , nausea , dizziness, or new head injury that is affecting you , and do you feel safe returning to play?  
     Tweak it with lawyers and neurologists and make it mandatory to complete before cleared for the second half. This would take under a min, but it would place some legal responsibility on each player as well so they can’t come back later and sue you for not having adequate protection against sending a confused or symptomatic player back out to play. This is standard in medicine , informed consent , and then if a guy wants to lie to still play, you at least have their own signed statement that they were ok and willing to continue playing.  Have each player sign and date it at half time and collect , file each form.    It would protect you from Tua , as an example,  coming in the next day saying he reported symptoms but was ignored and sent back out.   Just some thoughts in 10 min and I’m sure it could be improved but Tuas situation proves the NFL still needs their head trauma screening improved. 

[BuffaninSarasota]

2 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

It’s only 2.   He also hurt his back once. 

3 

Buffalo

Cincinnati

Green Bay

[Seventeen]

15 minutes ago, f0neguy said:

I realize he showed no symptoms.  With his history, I would hope the independent spotter would check regardless.  He had a serious injury earlier this season.  He bounced his head off of a lightly padded concrete floor.  The shield (and NFLPA) preach their concern over concussions.  He should have been checked.

 

Why isn't Tua wearing some kond of neck protection ( roll ) that should prevent the whiplash like snapping of his head against the turf ? Also beyond me as to how 

engineers haven't come up with a helmet with better shock/head protection than the standard Riddell he's wearing.

 

[BlazinBill]

So I guess my question here isn't so much why it wasn't seen during the game but why it's a thing a day later.

Is he having day after fog or maybe some other issue today which led to the further testing to see what was up?

[DapperCam]

Seems like every other game Allen has a similar hit where the back of his head smacks the turf in a similar manner. Makes me nervous for him. I know different people have different susceptibility to concussions. Tua seems very susceptible.
 

I always wonder if Allen got one in the second half of the Green Bay game. Dude went from looking like the best player in the NFL to just average or below average for a few weeks. I know these guys try to play through anything.

[3rdnlng]

This is an excerpt from a post I made here yesterday: 

 

It seems like every game I watch on TV the announcers point out some OC or DC who will be in great demand for a head coaching vacancy in the following year. While leadership qualities are a good thing for coordinators to have, their game planning and play calling is what makes the announcers fall in love with them. Most NFL management teams understand though that leadership is the most important quality for a head coach to possess. Also important are such features as attention to detail, game management, etc. My point is about Miami's head coach. He's considered a player's coach but by all reports he gets that label because he acts like a buddy to the players on his team. Being a player's coach is fine but that doesn't preclude a coach from the necessity of making the hard decisions that include honest and straightforward communication with his players and coaches. The fiasco over Tua's "back injury" or "ankle injury" that had all the markings of a concussion and then the decision was made to allow him to reenter the game with the Bills and then start the next game was a breach of faith with not only Tua but every one of his present and future players. Some people claim that the decision regarding Tua's playing status was not the coach's but the doctors. Simply put, the head coach should have seen what everyone else watching that game saw and benched Tua. It's the kind of decision that a "player's coach" makes. Miami's management has been reported to have committed numerous instances of actions contrary to NFL rules and common decency. Their reputation is such that even if the allegations are somehow baseless they seem credible due to the general perception of the team as a whole. 

 

Also, from where I sit it appears that Miami has mortgaged their future and taken shortcuts to possibly put them in championship contention. While I guess that outcome is technically feasible their present record and recent actions seem more likely to insure that they remain a middle of the pack team for years to come. 

[Dr.Sack]

Tua needs to be saved from himself. Sadly the playoffs are on the line so his personal health may be neglected and he will

magically be cleared in time for a now HUGE road game in New England. 

[Rochesterfan]

2 minutes ago, BlazinBill said:

So I guess my question here isn't so much why it wasn't seen during the game but why it's a thing a day later.

Is he having day after fog or maybe some other issue today which led to the further testing to see what was up?

 

Yes - he self reported symptoms today and therefore put him in protocol.

 

There is no proof that he got the concussion on the play or that he had any earlier signs or symptoms.

 

He reported issues and now the team is responding.  Everything else is falsely placed outrage and more likely to prevent players from self reporting if it is going to cause this kind of outrage.

 

 

 

As of this moment - no-one - not the spotters, not the Miami Doctors, not the Miami coaches, and not the players have done anything wrong.  He did not experience symptoms or signs during the game and self reported the following day.

 

Until something comes out from a source that the Dolphins staff or players said something - there should be no blame and Tua did the correct thing and reported symptoms when they are present.

 

 

[K-9]

16 minutes ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

3 

Buffalo

Cincinnati

Green Bay

Nah. Against Buffalo, the Miami medical staff said it was a back injury and I’m sure they wouldn’t mislead the league and the public like that if it wasn’t. 

[H2o]

Tua needs to hang up the cleats. He's not built for this. It would be in his best long term interests. 

[Playoffs?]

I know it’s insensitive, but if Tua did take the team down the field on the last drive and win the game against GB, would he still be in concussion protocol right now?    Sorry, based on what we’ve seen with Miami, gotta ask the question. 

[Doc Brown]

5 minutes ago, H2o said:

Tua needs to hang up the cleats. He's not built for this. It would be in his best long term interests. 

Would you say the same thing for Mitch Morse?

[DapperCam]

17 minutes ago, BlazinBill said:

So I guess my question here isn't so much why it wasn't seen during the game but why it's a thing a day later.

Is he having day after fog or maybe some other issue today which led to the further testing to see what was up?

He self-reported symptoms to the team doctors the next day. Credit to him for that.

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

Would you say the same thing for Mitch Morse?

I would, and I’m kind of annoyed the Bills haven’t given us a more solid backup C option considering his injury history.

[Playoffs?]

9 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

He self-reported symptoms to the team doctors the next day. Credit to him for that.

Definitely agree, and Tua’s health is #1.. but interesting that he didn’t self-report any symptoms after the Bills game that the Dolphins won and he made a big play to help that win. That was way worse than what happened against the Packers. 

[Process]

Three concussions in three months, two of which he continued to play through, is nasty stuff.

[Offside Number 76]

25 minutes ago, Playoffs? said:

I know it’s insensitive, but if Tua did take the team down the field on the last drive and win the game against GB, would he still be in concussion protocol right now?    Sorry, based on what we’ve seen with Miami, gotta ask the question. 

 

12 minutes ago, Playoffs? said:

Definitely agree, and Tua’s health is #1.. but interesting that he didn’t self-report any symptoms after the Bills game that the Dolphins won and he made a big play to help that win. That was way worse than what happened against the Packers. 

 

It's not insensitive.  His health is not his first priority and it certainly isn't the team's.  The league needs to fine Miami over this.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Miami Dolphins QB Tua is never going to be great he is like Buffalo Sabres/Vegas Golden Knights C Jack Eichel always hurt. What I call a talent tease at times they look great at times but once you buy in they pull the football away like Charlie Brown in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[frostbitmic]

He'll be cleared to play this weekend.

[benderbender]

Mcdaniel still Teflon on this topic. He's directly responsible and yet blameless. It's astounding. 

[4merper4mer]

21 minutes ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

Miami Dolphins QB Tua is never going to be great he is like Buffalo Sabres/Vegas Golden Knights C Jack Eichel always hurt. What I call a talent tease at times they look great at times but once you buy in they pull the football away like Charlie Brown in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

Here are the differences I see:

 

Eichel has tremendous talent whereas Tua’s is marginal.

Tua seems like a genuinely good dude whereas Eichel is a gigantic douche bag

[buffaloboyinATL]

5 hours ago, TBBills said:

I didn't see him hit his head at all in the game... I wonder if this is an emotional concussion.

He did. Someone here had the video and called it before he was put in protocol. He supposedly had 3 interceptions after. Miami needs to be sanctioned for this. Total disregard for player safety.  

[Putin]

He sneeze's and gets a concussion !!! 

[Donuts and Doritos]

This is twice by McDaniels & his crew, they've let Tua finish a game only to find out later he had a concussion. NFL is a joke on player safety if they don't step in & investigate. It's either incompetence or deliberate. Either way it's not good & needs to end, pronto.

[BRH]

Does anyone have video of right after the play when Tua got up and went back to the huddle?  Everyone is saying the spotters wouldn’t pull him unless he showed signs of instability.  I’m just wondering if the cameras showed him getting up.  

[The Wiz]

1 hour ago, DapperCam said:

Seems like every other game Allen has a similar hit where the back of his head smacks the turf in a similar manner. Makes me nervous for him. I know different people have different susceptibility to concussions. Tua seems very susceptible.
 

I always wonder if Allen got one in the second half of the Green Bay game. Dude went from looking like the best player in the NFL to just average or below average for a few weeks. I know these guys try to play through anything.

He did also hurt his elbow the following week but I'm not going to discount that he was off in the second half of that GB game and even early before he hurt his elbow.

 

Seems like it could have been a neurological issue that turned into a psychological issue when he got hurt.

 

Obviously all a guess.

[DapperCam]

3 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

He did also hurt his elbow the following week but I'm not going to discount that he was off in the second half of that GB game and even early before he hurt his elbow.

 

Seems like it could have been a neurological issue that turned into a psychological issue when he got hurt.

 

Obviously all a guess.

He had a hit in the GB game right at the beginning of the second half where a giant lineman landed directly on top of him out of bounds. I thought maybe ribs or something. We’ll probably never know.

[Turbo44]

20 minutes ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

This is twice by McDaniels & his crew, they've let Tua finish a game only to find out later he had a concussion. NFL is a joke on player safety if they don't step in & investigate. It's either incompetence or deliberate. Either way it's not good & needs to end, pronto.

Not sure it’s the head coach’s job to be doctor in the middle of the game?? First, he's not qualified, 2nd he has plenty of other things on his plate. So unless the team’s doctors told him about it and he ignored it, I don’t see how he is to blame.

somebody is to blame certainly, but not the head coach 

[eball]

Miami and Coach McNerd are going to turn Tua into a vegetable. 
 

I actually feel sorry and concerned for the guy. 
 

[4merper4mer]

17 minutes ago, Turbo44 said:

Not sure it’s the head coach’s job to be doctor in the middle of the game?? First, he's not qualified, 2nd he has plenty of other things on his plate. So unless the team’s doctors told him about it and he ignored it, I don’t see how he is to blame.

somebody is to blame certainly, but not the head coach 

That’s all true but the way he handles his press conferences around Tua’s condition have involved a lot of double talk that could be interpreted as pressure to return to action.  It’s not at all the way McDermott would handle it.

[Sharky7337]

1 hour ago, benderbender said:

Mcdaniel still Teflon on this topic. He's directly responsible and yet blameless. It's astounding. 

The Teflon neuron don?

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Turbo44 said:

Not sure it’s the head coach’s job to be doctor in the middle of the game?? First, he's not qualified, 2nd he has plenty of other things on his plate. So unless the team’s doctors told him about it and he ignored it, I don’t see how he is to blame.

somebody is to blame certainly, but not the head coach 

 

I agree with this.  It's not the head coach's job to clear the players physically.  That's on the team physician, the head trainer, and (where applicable) the independent neurological consultant.  If they say the guy is able to play, the coach's decision is only "is he the best player we have at that position?"

 

In cases where the player doesn't stagger or show balance issues on the way to the huddle and doesn't come out of the game, how would the HC even know there's an issue?

 

In any event, it's not unheard of for concussion symptoms to develop 1-2 days after the injury, so it may be legit that he didn't have symptoms at the time (and it looked like an ordinary hard tackle to me) and developed them after the game or today.

[Nelius]

Pretty creepy stuff. I was shocked by the reaction after the first one, then he had that horrific freeze during the second and everybody screamed about him not playing any more this year. And now a third one. If the Fish remain in the hunt you know they're going to wheel him back out there. What if this isn't even his last concussion of the season...

 

The blame is on the organization but I've tot to echo other posters that this may unfortunately be somewhat unique to Tua to an extent as he gets rag-dolled out there. Josh or Trevor Lawrence never get wrecked like Tua gets wrecked multiple times a game. Seems like a great guy with more talent than I thought a year ago, but he just may not be built for this unfortunately. 

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, Nelius said:

Pretty creepy stuff. I was shocked by the reaction after the first one, then he had that horrific freeze during the second and everybody screamed about him not playing any more this year. And now a third one. If the Fish remain in the hunt you know they're going to wheel him back out there. What if this isn't even his last concussion of the season...

 

The blame is on the organization but I've tot to echo other posters that this may unfortunately be somewhat unique to Tua to an extent as he gets rag-dolled out there. Josh or Trevor Lawrence never get wrecked like Tua gets wrecked multiple times a game. Seems like a great guy with more talent than I thought a year ago, but he just may not be built for this unfortunately. 

That might be the long term truth

 

He is very talented… extremely quick release, Processes the game fast, Incredible accuracy at all three levels

 

Will stand in the pocket and take a hit to deliver a throw

 

Unfortunately he’s 6’1 205 pounds… And his play style isn’t built for his stature

 

 

[UKBillFan]

8 hours ago, Mango said:

I was just having this conversation. It feels like it revolves mainly around Tre. But we have a QB with an injured throwing elbow, Poyer wasn’t allowed on an airplane, Beasley played with a broken leg, Morse is going to get cleared to play another NFL game after 6 NFL concussions alone. 
 

I don’t think McDermott is as careful as some would like him to believe. 
 

McDaniels is just risking Tua’s life. 

 

Didn't Doyle finish the Dolphins game with a torn ACL as well?

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, Nelius said:

Pretty creepy stuff. I was shocked by the reaction after the first one, then he had that horrific freeze during the second and everybody screamed about him not playing any more this year. And now a third one. If the Fish remain in the hunt you know they're going to wheel him back out there. What if this isn't even his last concussion of the season...

 

The blame is on the organization but I've tot to echo other posters that this may unfortunately be somewhat unique to Tua to an extent as he gets rag-dolled out there. Josh or Trevor Lawrence never get wrecked like Tua gets wrecked multiple times a game. Seems like a great guy with more talent than I thought a year ago, but he just may not be built for this unfortunately. 

 

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

That might be the long term truth

 

He is very talented… extremely quick release, Processes the game fast, Incredible accuracy at all three levels

 

Will stand in the pocket and take a hit to deliver a throw

 

Unfortunately he’s 6’1 205 pounds… And his play style isn’t built for his stature

 

 

 

This is the point for me: Tua seems unable to adequately defend himself when getting taken to the ground. He seems so much smaller than even his posted measurables, but more importantly, seems to go limp when forcefully contacted (the term rag-doll is apt) and therefore his body becomes a whip that accelerates his head into the ground. He's in danger out there.

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

 

This is the point for me: Tua seems unable to adequately defend himself when getting taken to the ground. He seems so much smaller than even his posted measurables, but more importantly, seems to go limp when forcefully contacted (the term rag-doll is apt) and therefore his body becomes a whip that accelerates his head into the ground. He's in danger out there.

It’s because he doesn’t know how to take a hit 

[UKBillFan]

Regarding Tua, the issue is they clearly broke protocol against us when the world and his wife knew he should be in concussion protocol yet they brought him back. Then he only missed, was it a game, after fencing against the Bengals. They haven't treated it seriously before so there's going to be cynicism about if they've treated it seriously this time - even if they have done everything they can.

 

 

[The Wiz]

13 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

Regarding Tua, the issue is they clearly broke protocol against us when the world and his wife knew he should be in concussion protocol yet they brought him back. Then he only missed, was it a game, after fencing against the Bengals. They haven't treated it seriously before so there's going to be cynicism about if they've treated it seriously this time - even if they have done everything they can.

 

 

It's likely because they knew that if he entered protocol when we played them, he wouldn't have cleared in time for the Thursday night game.  Which ended up the worst possible way for him.

 

You look at what agahlor did to stop the play when he knew his teammate was out on his feet and then you look back to that week 3 game of tuas teammates helping him barely stand up.

 

Win first, health second mentality comes from the coaching.  McD doesn't even let healthy players play because he worries about their long term well being.

Edited December 27, 2022 by The Wiz

[Donuts and Doritos]

7 hours ago, Turbo44 said:

Not sure it’s the head coach’s job to be doctor in the middle of the game?? First, he's not qualified, 2nd he has plenty of other things on his plate. So unless the team’s doctors told him about it and he ignored it, I don’t see how he is to blame.

somebody is to blame certainly, but not the head coach 

 

That's why I said McDaniels "& his crew" (GM & owner are part of this too). Head coach puts together a staff. He's in charge of. He is the face of the organization who answers questions about these things to the media (he already had to once before). I get there's an independent neurologist (& the last one they had got fired), but there's also trainers & team Dr.s who are supposed to keep the Head Coach updated on injuries & player status. After already going through this kind of F up once, I would think any good head coach (& most are control freaks) would want his team more on top of this to fix things with the staff so it doesn't happen a second time. It's troubling this is the 2nd time they apparently weren't aware their franchise QB had a concussion & continued to play (& this time threw 3 picks the last 3 drives to end the game). But hey, maybe McDaniels figures, not my problem, I'm just the head coach & can't do anything about it, go talk to our medical staff & the independent neurologist. Hopefully for Tua's sake & the Phins, he's more on top of things than that. Either way it's a bad look.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Donuts and Doritos

[Ray Stonada]

10 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

Tua is under incredible pressure to be “tough.”

http://amp.awfulannouncing.com/espn/tua-tagovailoa-reveals-his-father-beat-him-with-a-belt-for-interceptions-gameday-crew-laughs-about-joe-jackson-methods.html

 

Exactly why you cannot expect Tua to look out for his own best interests if it jeopardizes his performance on the field. The whole thing makes me sick for him and what has been done to him.

 

I hope he can get help.