If the offense keeps struggling does Dorsey get fired ?

[ddaryl]

6 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I used to avoid this place for a while after a loss. Now we are so spoiled you have to be careful after a win. We are #4 in points scored. Sure, there are things we could be doing better. That’s always the case…..but the sky is not falling. 

 

Its ok to call a spade a spade,

 

This offese is struggling for consistency.... This year is about winning the SB... so anything that might keep us from getting there is being discussed. This is not being spoiled, this is having expectations for this franchise.... I'm concerned

Edited December 12, 2022 by ddaryl

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

I'm not thrilled with our OC either. 

But we also have crap after Diggs for reliable pass catchers which is mind boggling.

 

The offense needs investment for the future

 

Concur.  We under-invested in offense this off-season.

[ddaryl]

34 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Agree, but I’d go with “understandable” instead of “mind boggling”. They haven’t spent the draft capital on offense to get difference makers or a dominant Oline. The guys they have spent high picks on are the guys keeping the offense going; Allen & Diggs. Cook and Knox have also made some big plays, but both are hampered by the poor line play. 

 

 

From what I saw ending last season to this season.. I'm sticking with mind boggling.

Edited December 12, 2022 by ddaryl

[frostbitmic]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't think that's the common use of the word.  It usually means returning to a previous, lesser state.  So are you thinking the Bills OL returned to how they were playing earlier in the season, or last season, and if so, when?

 

If they are playing poorly, for a variety of reasons including injury and a high level of skill from the opponent, that may not be "regressing".

 

The reason I don't see that as a nitpick, is that it's important to understand why something is happening if you want to change it.

To me it means not playing as well as they were previously playing, mostly IMO since the bye week.

 

 

[Beck Water]

20 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

 

OK, but when you see something like that, it's good to ask "why"?

 

Let's have a careful look at the chart, which I'm not sure Mr sharpndpensel did.  What I see is that all but 2 of Josh's completions were within 5 yds of the LOS, an area where completions over the middle are difficult and dangerous (because of the risk of batted balls).  At least one of the longer completions was actually a short completion to Dawson Knox, with good YAC.  I think the completion on the L sideline was to Gabe Davis.

 

So I doubt the Bills game plan failed to pick that up, what I think was happening was that Allen was having to live on short dump-offs and had to move out of the pocket before anything deep (L R or C) opened up.  The Jets were also pretty determined not to let Allen roll out to the R, which they did last game.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

24 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

To me it means not playing as well as they were previously playing, mostly IMO since the bye week.

 

Oh, wow, OK. 

 

So since the bye week, with this Jets game being an exception, the Bills have had 6 straight games above the league average 120 rush yds per game.  Prior to the bye, we were just under the league average with 118 per game; after the bye, average of 148 (including yesterday's below-average rushing).  Allen averaged 7.8 rush attempts per game prior to the bye, and 7.4 after the bye, so the improvement is not Josh running more.

 

That usually means improved OL play. 

 

I think it's a point that Josh has been taking more sacks (1.7 before the bye, 2.7 afterwards).  I'm not sure that's entirely on the OL - someone has stats on the time Josh holds the ball, and I think he's been doubting himself over pulling the trigger trying to avoid interceptions, and maybe not trusting that the ball will go exactly where he wants if he doesn't have time to set and throw, instead of feeling confident he can sling it on the run.

 

Bottom line, with a big exception of last game with Quessenberry in at LT and this game with Dawkins gimping into the locker room pre game and playing on a high ankle, I'm not sure the OL is really playing worse and where they are, I'm not sure it's "regressing" and not playing hurt.

 

[Awwufelloff]

Need to fix our Oline. 

[FilthyBeast]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

 

Unless the Pegula's intervene I would doubt it because it's not McD/Beane's style and they'll just believe he'll be better next year by default.

 

I was never a huge Daboll fan, but it's clear that Dorsey is trying too hard to be his own guy so to speak and fit the proverbial square peg in a round hole with a roster that just isn't good enough on the offensive side.

[Bruffalo]

44 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Concur.  We under-invested in offense this off-season.

We've under-invested since 2020.  Ever since they figured out Allen was "the dude", they've almost ignored offense in meaningful draft choices or splashy FA signings that would help him.

[colin]

statistically, we are the same or even a touch better, so i think he's fine.

 

we need an interior blocker (who can pass and run block some) and one more play maker on O.  could be someone stepping up, could be FA, could be a rook, but we need one more person on O who can get the ball and make the D pay.

 

 

[GoBills808]

lmfao no

[thenorthremembers]

Despite the struggles of our oline and wideouts the Bills are still a top 10 offense and have scored more points through 13 games than they did last year.  That performance got Daboll a head coaching job so.

Edited December 12, 2022 by thenorthremembers

[Casey D]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

I see him getting released right after the Bills win the Super Bowl.  That will show him.

[Kmart128]

Doubtful... if you recall Daboll wasnt exactly some great OC his first year with us... it takes time to build.

 

And his recievers leading the NFL in drops does not help him one bit

[frostbitmic]

22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, wow, OK. 

 

So since the bye week, with this Jets game being an exception, the Bills have had 6 straight games above the league average 120 rush yds per game.  Prior to the bye, we were just under the league average with 118 per game; after the bye, average of 148 (including yesterday's below-average rushing).  Allen averaged 7.8 rush attempts per game prior to the bye, and 7.4 after the bye, so the improvement is not Josh running more.

 

That usually means improved OL play. 

 

I think it's a point that Josh has been taking more sacks (1.7 before the bye, 2.7 afterwards).  I'm not sure that's entirely on the OL - someone has stats on the time Josh holds the ball, and I think he's been doubting himself over pulling the trigger trying to avoid interceptions, and maybe not trusting that the ball will go exactly where he wants if he doesn't have time to set and throw, instead of feeling confident he can sling it on the run.

 

Bottom line, with a big exception of last game with Quessenberry in at LT and this game with Dawkins gimping into the locker room pre game and playing on a high ankle, I'm not sure the OL is really playing worse and where they are, I'm not sure it's "regressing" and not playing hurt.

 

I think the line has improved a bit at run blocking but the rushing numbers per game are up because they're calling more run plays. Some of that due to trying to be more balanced and a big part because of Allen's injured Elbow, which I believe is or was worse than has been reported.

 

Yes, Dawkins multiple penalties yesterday was because of getting beat numerous times because of his Ankle and I do give him credit for toughing it out as there isn't another Tackle on the team any better than a one legged man. I guess the play that sticks out to me yesterday was both Dawkins and Brown being beaten like drums and both having to hold to prevent Josh from being the creamy filling of an Oreo cookie. It wasn't a good look.

 

Dorsey does need to draw up some plays where Josh gets the ball out quicker. It just might keep Josh upright and help negate the pass rush

 that you know is coming. We apparently aren't going to agree here on this and that's cool, have a great day.

[Solomon Grundy]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

Only if Josh/Diggs shows their displeasure

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, frostbitmic said:

Dorsey didn't draw up all of the penalties his offensive line was getting marched backwards for either. I know Dawkins was flagged at least three times himself.

 

Drawing up some quicker strike plays would help this regressing line immensely.

 

Correct.   Dawkins was flagged 1x for false start and 3x for offensive holding yesterday (once was 3D and declined).  3 of them were in the 1st half.  No penalties in the 4Q.  That's 3 of the Bills  5 accepted penalties right there.  The other two were on Mitch Morse or Josh Allen (ineligible downfield) and Rodger Saffold (false start).  There were a couple of other declined penalties on the OL - offensive holding on Saffold was one.

 

I don't know what 'regressing' means to you, but there's not a mystery as to what was going on.  Dawkins is playing on a high ankle sprain, and isn't as mobile as he normally is - against what's quite possibly the best DL in the league, certainly one of the best 3 or 4.  He's not doing it because he loves to play on a high ankle sprain, he's doing it because he and the coaches believe he's a better option to protect Josh than Quessenberry, also playing on an injured ankle.

 

I don't think that's regressing, I think that's playing hurt. 

[TFBillsfan]

Something else that hasn’t been brought up is our schedule compared to last year. ITS SIGNIFICANTLY HARDER. Outside of the Bears game every team when we played them has been in the thick of it. MIA, NYJ, DET all significantly improved from last year. If the Bills go on to beat MIA and Cinncy they will have beaten every playoff team except MN this year. Yes they need to tighten up a few things but when this team fires on all cylinders they can beat anyone.

 

Last year we had the luxury of playing some bad teams….not so much this year. Not making excuses but we’ve had a ton of injuries coupled with Tre and Hyde injuries and now Von. For this team to be at 10-3 with plenty of meat left on the bone to get better should be scary of what they can do. Make no mistake no one wants a playoff matchup with Buffalo.

 

Now let’s go get what this team, franchise, city and all of BillsMafia want…..the Lombardi. It’s all right there in front of us starting with TCB against MIA.

 

FINISH STRONG BUFFALO!!!!!!!

[Eastport bills]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

Are you oblivious to the problems wind and driving rain cause offenses? What a nonsensical post. Forgetting Josh’s injury and the fact Dawkins had holding penalties every other play, the idea is put up points and no turnovers while you WIN! Wait for a fast track and see what our offense is.

[Codyny13]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

So, I haven't seen game film of yesterday and I have a hard time telling what's really going on from TV broadcast.  But what I saw for a few games has been,  Dorsey's answer to defenses relying on their DL to bring pressure with 4 (or 3) and blanketing the field with 7 (or  8 ) has been to send 3 WR on deep routes and have 2 outlets chip and release for a short passing game.  So we either have deep routes that develop late, and we're not getting the protection to wait for them to develop, or we have outlets who chip and release, which makes them not as quick targets as they could be, and sometimes not available with a clear passing lane.  Sometimes he sends a receiver or an RB out to the flat.

 

I think Dorsey's idea is that we hit those outlets quickly and accurately, they get 8-10 yds a pop, and it will either get us to the EZ or knock the defenses out of that type of coverage, freeing up the deeper routes.  (Daboll had a different approach involving getting Beasley open underneath and scheming guys open deep).  This actually worked very well against the Patriots.

 

The problems are, 1) Josh doesn't necessarily make those short "outlet" throws accurately, especially on the move or under pressure.  They were his least accurate throws in college and pre draft, and some of the last he improved.  2) Mentally, Josh strongly resists taking the checkdown, and even more resists taking the checkdown promptly, when it is most effective and will get the most yards. 3) when the TE and RB are expected to chip and release, they aren't always available as outlets - if they can't get off the block or are delayed getting off the block.  It also becomes predictable.  Dorsey needs to mix it up more IMO.

All good points, I would like to watch the all-22 and see if our receivers are winning at the tops of their routes. Our offensive line just doesn’t seem good enough to rely on these late developing routes consistently. Dorsey can have the best play concept but if you don’t have the guys to execute, it’s going to break down.  Just doesn’t seem to come easy lately, which of course against a good defense, that happens, but def need to do more and be better going into the playoffs.

[ColoradoBills]

4 hours ago, Epstein's Mother said:

 

Yeah.  The OP says they're doing it wrong.

 

"It's south to drop off, moron"!

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

Dorsey put his job in jeopardy when we had the game in hand with an 8 point lead and a first down with just over a minute left in the game...but decided to PASS the ball on first down despite the fact the Jets had ALL THREE TIMEOUTS.  WTF is this utterly stupid move.  And it totally screwed us, but thankfully our defense bailed us out again.  

 

We actually punted with enough time and ONE TIMEOUT still for the Jets to give them a LEGIT shot to send that game to OT.  It was one of the worst calls all season.  

 

Roll Josh out...fine...FAKE the pass and see if he can get some chunk yards and STAY IN BOUNDS.  DO NOT under any circumstance stop the clock for the Jets without FIRST getting a FIRST down.  This is football 101.  

 

IF...and ONLY if...its third down and you want to try and end the game right there, sure take a gamble on a pass, BUT NEVER on first down.  We could have run for a first down and never even risked it.  

 

UNBELIEVABLE.  That alone...that play call...could have cost us this game.  Dorsey in my eyes has been a liability this year with his lack of creativity and adjustments, and lack of consistency in layering in the run game even when we are having success with it.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I'm not sure what Dorsey is doing right now. 

 

Game to game there doesn't seem to be consistent logic. 

 

Do we have any portion of the offense that is a staple? Allen runs and Diggs. 

 

We're heading into Week 15 and everyone besides those two you have no idea what's going to happen besides a general "nothing" result. 

[YattaOkasan]

2 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

Its ok to call a spade a spade,

 

This offese is struggling for consistency.... This year is about winning the SB... so anything that might keep us from getting there is being discussed. This is not being spoiled, this is having expectations for this franchise.... I'm concerned

Discussion is giving this thread too much credit.  It literally says Dorsey should be fired.  Thats not happening.  We could be discussing run game or short passing, but the premise that Dorsey should be fired is silly and makes this place hard to swallow.

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Dorsey put his job in jeopardy when we had the game in hand with an 8 point lead and a first down with just over a minute left in the game...but decided to PASS the ball on first down despite the fact the Jets had ALL THREE TIMEOUTS.  WTF is this utterly stupid move.  And it totally screwed us, but thankfully our defense bailed us out again.  

 

We actually punted with enough time and ONE TIMEOUT still for the Jets to give them a LEGIT shot to send that game to OT.  It was one of the worst calls all season.  

 

Roll Josh out...fine...FAKE the pass and see if he can get some chunk yards and STAY IN BOUNDS.  DO NOT under any circumstance stop the clock for the Jets without FIRST getting a FIRST down.  This is football 101.  

 

IF...and ONLY if...its third down and you want to try and end the game right there, sure take a gamble on a pass, BUT NEVER on first down.  We could have run for a first down and never even risked it.  

 

UNBELIEVABLE.  That alone...that play call...could have cost us this game.  Dorsey in my eyes has been a liability this year with his lack of creativity and adjustments, and lack of consistency in layering in the run game even when we are having success with it.  

I'm fine with the kill shot.  It did NOT totally screw us.  Jets got the ball with 46 seconds left to go get a TD.  Thats a long shot.  ESPN win % had us > 98% after that play.  Also he did roll out Jos,h and Josh decided to throw the ball.  He gave Josh the option to throw which Im fine with it.  I would argue the kill shot on 1st down makes more sense than 3rd down when teams are expecting it more (it is creative at least sheesh).  I would like to see the run more but wow this post.   

[Beck Water]

19 minutes ago, Codyny13 said:

All good points, I would like to watch the all-22 and see if our receivers are winning at the tops of their routes. Our offensive line just doesn’t seem good enough to rely on these late developing routes consistently. Dorsey can have the best play concept but if you don’t have the guys to execute, it’s going to break down.  Just doesn’t seem to come easy lately, which of course against a good defense, that happens, but def need to do more and be better going into the playoffs.

 

OK, I'll add in a bit more detail here and say on the all-22 plays I've watched, our receivers actually did win eventually and come open.  In fact on one play I watched 2 out of 3 came open.   But you're absolutely correct, by the time that happened, the OL had broken down and Josh had to take a checkdown to Cook.  I'm rolling off the top of my head here, but IIRC at the point where the WR came open on their relatively deep routes, 3.3 or 3.4 seconds had elapsed and Josh needed to throw at 2.5 or 2.6 seconds.

 

It's the problem I see with Dorsey's "deep routes or checkdowns" play designs.

[Peter]

With respect, this thread makes no sense:

 

 

 

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

This is a problem...Bills tied for 2nd in NFL in dropped passes.

 

 

 

Be nice if "Lord_of_Jord" gave the source for his stats

 

Enquiring minds wish to know: is it also a problem for the Miami Dolphins (tied with the Bills at 23) and the KC Chiefs (1 fewer drop, 22)?

 

27 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Dorsey put his job in jeopardy when we had the game in hand with an 8 point lead and a first down with just over a minute left in the game...but decided to PASS the ball on first down despite the fact the Jets had ALL THREE TIMEOUTS.  WTF is this utterly stupid move.  And it totally screwed us, but thankfully our defense bailed us out again. 

 

In his postgame presser, McDermott was asked about that play call and said "we had a good play call there and liked it, just got to execute a little bit better right there".  He seemed very matter of fact and not like he was covering something up, so he does not appear to agree with you.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Beck Water

[Alphadawg7]

12 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

I'm fine with the kill shot.  It did NOT totally screw us.  Jets got the ball with 46 seconds left to go get a TD.  Thats a long shot.  ESPN win % had us > 98% after that play.  Also he did roll out Jos,h and Josh decided to throw the ball.  He gave Josh the option to throw which Im fine with it.  I would argue the kill shot on 1st down makes more sense than 3rd down when teams are expecting it more (it is creative at least sheesh).  I would like to see the run more but wow this post.   

 

Sorry, but 48 seconds and a timeout is something that could have screwed us, but our defense stepped up.  That is enough time to tie a game.  

 

It would have been a lot better to give them the ball back with no timeouts and have to go the length of the field.  It would have been better to run the ball on first and pick up yards so its not 2nd and 10 and now being forced to run the ball 2 straight downs to make them use 2 of their 3 timeouts.

 

By all accounts, the pass on first down literally opens up the possibility to lose the game, even if it works.  You can still get sacked, you can throw a pick, you can have an incompletion...all of which are terrible outcomes compared to the ONLY positive outcome of a completed pass for over 10 yards and a first down.  A short pass does nothing a run couldn't do, it only helps if it goes for over 10 yards.  Any other result makes the play call a mistake.  

 

So no disrespect, but I wholeheartedly disagree that this was a good choice.  If Allen fumbles or throws a pick, 2 things he has struggled with this year, then now they have 3 timeouts over a minute to go and a short field.  The reward was not worth the risk, especially against a stong defense and with how well our defense was playing.  

 

When your defense is playing that well, you do not need to risk the game for a kill shot.  You make them use the 3 timeouts, hope you run for a first down anyway and it's a mute point, and if not then punt the ball to the opposite side of the field and make them drive on your defense with no timeouts and 40ish seconds left in the game.

 

[RobbRiddick]

4 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

Come on guys....you did the same thing to Daboll. Always something to complain about...

 

 

 

Recency effect. People remember the 2 playoff games. They forget games like Jax, Atlanta, the second game against the Jets...

 

I do find Dorsey frustrating but anyone who thinks Daboll was some faultless coordinator is kidding themselves

[BillsFanSD]

29 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Dorsey put his job in jeopardy when we had the game in hand with an 8 point lead and a first down with just over a minute left in the game...but decided to PASS the ball on first down despite the fact the Jets had ALL THREE TIMEOUTS.  WTF is this utterly stupid move. 

Couldn't disagree more.  The Jets were keying on the run, which is why we were completely unable to gain any yards on the ground.  Putting the ball in the air on first down was a good, calculated risk that more or less ends the game immediately if Knox hauls that pass in.  More generally, it is always acceptable to put the ball in Josh Allen's hands in key situations.  

 

Handing the ball off three times isn't terrible, but that's how Dick Jauron would finish the game with Kyle Orton or somebody under center.  It's fine to give the ball to your RB and hope to run as much clock as possible if that's the talent level of your offense.  That's cowardly and against the odds when you have a QB like ours.

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

In his postgame presser, McDermott was asked about that play call and said "we had a good play call there and liked it, just got to execute a little bit better right there".  He seemed very matter of fact and not like he was covering something up, so he does not appear to agree with you.

 

He said the same thing about the 13 seconds.  Then not long after the game our ST Coordinator "stepped down" to take a lateral move to be the ST Coordinator for the lowly Jags.

 

So yeah, he isn't going to come out and throw someone under the bus, he has never ever done that once.  And doesn't matter if McD supported the call, its still a mistake.  Dorsey would defend that call too, does not make it the correct call.  I promise you, every coach would defend every call you have ever disagreed with in your history of watching sports.  

[billsfan_34]

3 wins in 12 days, all on the road. Huge win yesterday at home in brutal weather conditions. 4 wins in a row all under tough circumstances. Yesterday’s game yielded 9 catchable drops I believe?
 

No, Dorsey is safe and everyone needs to step away from the ledge.

 

Against the Jets: We did not turn the ball over, muff any punts/kickoffs, played great defense. Complimentary ball is what I saw in the stadium. Go Bills.

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

3 wins in 12 days, all on the road. Huge win yesterday at home in brutal weather conditions. 4 wins in a row all under tough circumstances. Yesterday’s game yielded 9 catchable drops I believe?
 

No, Dorsey is safe and everyone needs to step away from the ledge.

 

Against the Jets: We did not turn the ball over, muff any punts/kickoffs, played great defense. Complimentary ball is what I saw in the stadium. Go Bills.

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, BillsFanSD said:

Couldn't disagree more.  The Jets were keying on the run, which is why we were completely unable to gain any yards on the ground.  Putting the ball in the air on first down was a good, calculated risk that more or less ends the game immediately if Knox hauls that pass in.  More generally, it is always acceptable to put the ball in Josh Allen's hands in key situations.  

 

Handing the ball off three times isn't terrible, but that's how Dick Jauron would finish the game with Kyle Orton or somebody under center.  It's fine to give the ball to your RB and hope to run as much clock as possible if that's the talent level of your offense.  That's cowardly and against the odds when you have a QB like ours.

 

And if Josh fumbles in the rain or throws an INT...2 things he has struggled with this year...then what?  Jets have a short field, over a minute to go, and 3 timeouts.

 

I am not against kill shots...but there is context to every one of them, and they are not all equal.  Our Defense was playing stout.  Their defense was also playing stout, and the strength of their D is pass defense, especially with Q. Williams out of the game.  

 

You take a risk on a kill shot there when you fear you won't be able to keep the other team from driving the whole field with 40 seconds and  no timeouts.  There was no reason to fear that from the Jets.  There was 100% reason to fear we could turn the ball over or not complete the pass given we struggled in bad weather all game to pass the ball again on this strong pass defense.  

 

This kill shot, under these circumstances was a mistake.  And that is coming from me who is about as aggressive as it gets when it comes to taking chances in football.  This was a moment in the game where the risk out weighed the reward given the likely hood of the Jets ability to drive the field with no timeouts in 40 seconds was much lower than the risk of turning the ball over or giving the Jets a little more help to drive the field by giving them a free timeout.  

[YattaOkasan]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Sorry, but 48 seconds and a timeout is something that could have screwed us, but our defense stepped up.  That is enough time to tie a game.  

 

It would have been a lot better to give them the ball back with no timeouts and have to go the length of the field.  It would have been better to run the ball on first and pick up yards so its not 2nd and 10 and now being forced to run the ball 2 straight downs to make them use 2 of their 3 timeouts.

 

By all accounts, the pass on first down literally opens up the possibility to lose the game, even if it works.  You can still get sacked, you can throw a pick, you can have an incompletion...all of which are terrible outcomes compared to the ONLY positive outcome of a completed pass for over 10 yards and a first down.  A short pass does nothing a run couldn't do, it only helps if it goes for over 10 yards.  Any other result makes the play call a mistake.  

 

So no disrespect, but I wholeheartedly disagree that this was a good choice.  If Allen fumbles or throws a pick, 2 things he has struggled with this year, then now they have 3 timeouts over a minute to go and a short field.  The reward was not worth the risk, especially against a stong defense and with how well our defense was playing.  

 

When your defense is playing that well, you do not need to risk the game for a kill shot.  You make them use the 3 timeouts, hope you run for a first down anyway and it's a mute point, and if not then punt the ball to the opposite side of the field and make them drive on your defense with no timeouts and 40ish seconds left in the game.

 

I like alot of your post but youre all over the place here.  Why is a sack bad if youre so concerned with stopping the clock?  I think thats why the call is great cause josh can run and take care of the ball rather than be in the pocket where fumbles/picks are much more likely.  

 

you dont think we should take a kill shot at all fine.  McD is on the headset too.  McD could stop Dorsey if he disagreed.  McD was ok with taking a shot too which is why Dorsey should not and will not be fired (shees). 

 

If we wanna go down the rabbit hole of things that could happen (as you did with picks and fumbles and lions and tigers and bears oh my!), then consider we had a punt blocked in that game already.  I think the risk of punt block yesterday was greater than the risk of josh not taking care of the ball on a roll out (designed roll outs have not been an issue for TOs). 

 

How do you think 46 seconds, 1 TO, and 79 yards could have screwed us in that weather?  If they were down a field goal im with you make them get in range without a TO.  As it was they took 16 seconds with only 1 attempt going beyond the sticks.  They werent gonna be able to get to the endzone if they completed all those and got OB.   Again I like a lot of the things you post but I think youre over the top on it.  You disagree fine; but pretty obviously McD was fine with the call and it did not "Put his job in jeopardy"  

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

5 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

I agree. This offense has been sputtering lately, but the weather certainly did not help this week. Kind of late in the season and I’m not sure who else they could replace him with?

[YattaOkasan]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And if Josh fumbles in the rain or throws an INT...2 things he has struggled with this year...then what?  Jets have a short field, over a minute to go, and 3 timeouts.

 

I am not against kill shots...but there is context to every one of them, and they are not all equal.  Our Defense was playing stout.  Their defense was also playing stout, and the strength of their D is pass defense, especially with Q. Williams out of the game.  

 

You take a risk on a kill shot there when you fear you won't be able to keep the other team from driving the whole field with 40 seconds and  no timeouts.  There was no reason to fear that from the Jets.  There was 100% reason to fear we could turn the ball over or not complete the pass given we struggled in bad weather all game to pass the ball again on this strong pass defense.  

 

This kill shot, under these circumstances was a mistake.  And that is coming from me who is about as aggressive as it gets when it comes to taking chances in football.  This was a moment in the game where the risk out weighed the reward given the likely hood of the Jets ability to drive the field with no timeouts in 40 seconds was much lower than the risk of turning the ball over or giving the Jets a little more help to drive the field by giving them a free timeout.  

Now with your other post I think you need to weigh the risk of punting in that weather.  Considering we had one blocked already that game and Josh has been fine on designed roll outs I think the risk of the punt may have been the worry versus the risk of a TO and or them moving the ball on us after the punt (pretty much 0% with our without a TO).

 

Lastly, I dont think McD said everything was fine with the kick after 13 seconds.  I though he very quickly said there was a miscommunication on that and he took fault.  This play sounded like no miscommunication (the lead up to these two plays was very different, OMG we scored a TD what we do vs we wanna take a shot after we get the ball)

[RiotAct]

17 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

 

Handing the ball off three times isn't terrible, but that's how Dick Jauron would finish the game with Kyle Orton or somebody under center.  It's fine to give the ball to your RB and hope to run as much clock as possible if that's the talent level of your offense.  That's cowardly and against the odds when you have a QB like ours.

It’s not cowardly, it’s the correct move in that situation.

 

4:10 left in the 4th?  I agree, sprinkle a pass in there maybe.

 

1:10 left in the 4th?  Run the damn ball.

[mannc]

55 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Dorsey put his job in jeopardy when we had the game in hand with an 8 point lead and a first down with just over a minute left in the game...but decided to PASS the ball on first down despite the fact the Jets had ALL THREE TIMEOUTS.  WTF is this utterly stupid move.  And it totally screwed us, but thankfully our defense bailed us out again.  

 

We actually punted with enough time and ONE TIMEOUT still for the Jets to give them a LEGIT shot to send that game to OT.  It was one of the worst calls all season.  

 

Roll Josh out...fine...FAKE the pass and see if he can get some chunk yards and STAY IN BOUNDS.  DO NOT under any circumstance stop the clock for the Jets without FIRST getting a FIRST down.  This is football 101.  

 

IF...and ONLY if...its third down and you want to try and end the game right there, sure take a gamble on a pass, BUT NEVER on first down.  We could have run for a first down and never even risked it.  

 

UNBELIEVABLE.  That alone...that play call...could have cost us this game.  Dorsey in my eyes has been a liability this year with his lack of creativity and adjustments, and lack of consistency in layering in the run game even when we are having success with it.  

Totally disagree.  Knox was open and dropped the pass.  If he catches it, like any decent NFL TE would, then the game is over.  I loved the call.

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, YattaOkasan said:

I like alot of your post but youre all over the place here.  Why is a sack bad if youre so concerned with stopping the clock?  I think thats why the call is great cause josh can run and take care of the ball rather than be in the pocket where fumbles/picks are much more likely.  

 

you dont think we should take a kill shot at all fine.  McD is on the headset too.  McD could stop Dorsey if he disagreed.  McD was ok with taking a shot too which is why Dorsey should not and will not be fired (shees). 

 

If we wanna go down the rabbit hole of things that could happen (as you did with picks and fumbles and lions and tigers and bears oh my!), then consider we had a punt blocked in that game already.  I think the risk of punt block yesterday was greater than the risk of josh not taking care of the ball on a roll out (designed roll outs have not been an issue for TOs). 

 

How do you think 46 seconds, 1 TO, and 79 yards could have screwed us in that weather?  If they were down a field goal im with you make them get in range without a TO.  As it was they took 16 seconds with only 1 attempt going beyond the sticks.  They werent gonna be able to get to the endzone if they completed all those and got OB.   Again I like a lot of the things you post but I think youre over the top on it.  You disagree fine; but pretty obviously McD was fine with the call and it did not "Put his job in jeopardy"  

 

Because with a sack you create the possibility of a strip sack by our QB who has been prone to fumbling.  You also take away the likelihood of getting a first down running the ball when you are facing 2nd down and more than 10 yards.

 

To be clear, I did not advocate for him to be fired, and this play call will not get any attention moving forward.  What I was implying when I said he put his job in jeopardy when he called that play was referring to if we would have gone on to lose the game because of that play.  Not saying his job is in jeopardy today because of it.  Meant the play call opened him up for some potential real bad outcomes if it had not ended well.  

 

And lets be real here, if that timeout ended up helping the Jets tie and win the game in OT, this board would be melting down today with wanting to fire McD and Dorsey over that call...and probably Frazier too. 

 

End of the day...the risk in bad weather against a defense that we struggled to pass against for 2 consecutive games was a lot riskier than just running the ball 3 times and giving the ball back in the event we don't get the first down with no timeouts and 40ish second left on the clock for the Jets to try and score on our defense that was playing lights out against them.