It's WAAAYYY Overdue - Holding Calls Should be 5 Yards

[BuffaloBaumer]

The fact that this penalty basically happens on EVERY SINGLE DOWN, isn't it ridiculous that it is still 10 yards? These penalties are drive killers and they ruin the offensive vibe immediately. I don't think I have ever heard this being brought up at owner's meetings and there is no reason that it should not be 5 yards. What am I missing here?

[Success]

People would hold a lot more.  10 yards is just.

[mikemac2001]

Typically you hold to save a sack which is usually 5+ yards and the down counts. 
 

So if you hold to save a sack In your rules it would be 1st and 15 instead of 2nd and 15+ so holding would benefit the offense that’s why it is 10 yards 

[Repulsif]

@HOUSE agrees with a 5y penalty

then @HOUSE agrees with 10y penalty

 

[HOUSE]

Just now, Repulsif said:

@HOUSE agrees with a 5y penalty

then @HOUSE agrees with 10y penalty

 

15 yards will be fine

[MJS]

Can we agree on a compromise?

 

Make it a 7.5 yard penalty.

[Logic]

I think 10 yard penalty is perfect.

As others have said, a sack usually results in the loss of 5-7 yards anyway. If it was only a five yard penalty, people would hold all of the time to save themselves the down.

The penalty has to be bad enough that teams don't do it on purpose.

If we want to talk about the enforcement or language of holding penalties, that's fine, but the penalty yardage for it is right on point, IMO.

Now....defensive pass interference? THAT should change. 45-yard penalties that decide game outcomes are ridiculous and should not happen.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Logic

[Low Positive]

13 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

The fact that this penalty basically happens on EVERY SINGLE DOWN, isn't it ridiculous that it is still 10 yards? These penalties are drive killers and they ruin the offensive vibe immediately. I don't think I have ever heard this being brought up at owner's meetings and there is no reason that it should not be 5 yards. What am I missing here?

I have always wondered why defensive holding is 5 yards and offensive holding is 10 yards.

[Big Turk]

15 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

The fact that this penalty basically happens on EVERY SINGLE DOWN, isn't it ridiculous that it is still 10 yards? These penalties are drive killers and they ruin the offensive vibe immediately. I don't think I have ever heard this being brought up at owner's meetings and there is no reason that it should not be 5 yards. What am I missing here?

 

Just hold at your own 10 yard line or inside it and you get a discount.

1 minute ago, FrenchConnection said:

I have always wondered why defensive holding is 5 yards and offensive holding is 10 yards.

 

Because you get an automatic first down as well? The equivalent for the offense would for it to be made 4th down immediately regardless of what down the hold occurred on.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Big Turk

[nucci]

How come when there are 2 penalties on offense or defense on one play only one is accepted? If you commit 2 fouls on one play both are accepted. If defense goes Offside and holds same play, both should be marked off. Also, half the distance...if you're at your own 15 yd and commit offensive holding...go back to the 5...keep moving back till you can't anymore

[Fleezoid]

Automatic first down on defensive holding is worse. Could be 3rd and 25 and a guy gets held 8 yards downfield and bam, new set of downs. Egregious when it happens near the red zone. 

[skibum]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

No defensive pass interference? THAT should change. 45-yard penalties that decide game outcomes are ridiculous and should not happen.

That's also a tough one, though. If they capped the penalty yards, then you would invite blatant PI on any pass longer than that cap. It almost has to be the way it is, though I agree that it seems unnecessarily harsh in many cases. 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Fleezoid said:

Automatic first down on defensive holding is worse. Could be 3rd and 25 and a guy gets held 8 yards downfield and bam, new set of downs. Egregious when it happens near the red zone. 

 

All part of rules designed to help the offense and score more points for the fans and to increase popularity.  The casual fans who are the biggest demographic want to see points scored when they go to games, not defensive struggles.

1 minute ago, skibum said:

That's also a tough one, though. If they capped the penalty yards, then you would invite blatant PI on any pass longer than that cap. It almost has to be the way it is, though I agree that it seems unnecessarily harsh in many cases. 

 

Perhaps separate the types of DPI?  Egregious/non-egregious? 

[Logic]

7 minutes ago, skibum said:

That's also a tough one, though. If they capped the penalty yards, then you would invite blatant PI on any pass longer than that cap. It almost has to be the way it is, though I agree that it seems unnecessarily harsh in many cases. 

I've always thought there should be two pass interference penalties, just like there are two facemasking penalties. "Incidental" interference would be 15 yards. "Intentional" pass interference -- really blatant instances, as you say -- would still be a spot foul. Yes, it would still be up to the judgement of officials, but it already is now, so what's the difference?

I think that penalizing "incidental" interference only 15 yards would at least prevent those ticky-tack fouls and instances of people tripping over each other's legs accidentally from swinging drive and game outcomes. It might even prevent huge yardage gains on some of those situations we see all too frequently where QBs purposely underthrow long passes specifically to draw fouls.

But if you yank a guy down intentionally or pin his arm or whatever, then yeah, still a spot foul.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Logic

[Brand J]

On the topic of penalties, a personal foul should override any other foul if both teams commit an infraction. “Personal foul on the defense, facemask, illegal shift on the offense, those penalties offset, replay the down.” If the NFL doesn’t want to give 15 yards and the first down in situations like this, then just give the offense the first down, but they should not offset.

[Taro Nimbus]

And Offside on defense is 5 yards.  Make it 10 as well. 😂

[GoBills808]

No. Learn how to block properly.

[WhoTom]

8 minutes ago, Logic said:

I've always thought there should be two pass interference penalties, just like there are were two facemasking penalties. "Incidental" interference would be 15 yards. "Intentional" pass interference -- really blatant instances, as you say -- would still be a spot foul. Yes, it would still be up to the judgement of officials, but it already is now, so what's the difference?

 

They took away the "incidental" facemask penalty for the same reason they took away the "pushout" rule on passes: it was too much of a judgment call.

 

[Logic]

Just now, WhoTom said:

 

They took away the "incidental" facemask penalty for the same reason they took away the "pushout" rule on passes: it was too much of a judgment call.

 

That makes some sense to me. The only rebuttal I'd have would be to say that just about every call an NFL official makes is ALREADY a judgement call. It's already so subjective!

 

[nucci]

22 minutes ago, skibum said:

That's also a tough one, though. If they capped the penalty yards, then you would invite blatant PI on any pass longer than that cap. It almost has to be the way it is, though I agree that it seems unnecessarily harsh in many cases. 

I don't see it happening in college

[Augie]

I think we should reconsider the forward pass. The game hasn’t been the same since they started allowing the forward pass. 

 

 

.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Augie

[Alphadawg7]

35 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

The fact that this penalty basically happens on EVERY SINGLE DOWN, isn't it ridiculous that it is still 10 yards? These penalties are drive killers and they ruin the offensive vibe immediately. I don't think I have ever heard this being brought up at owner's meetings and there is no reason that it should not be 5 yards. What am I missing here?

 

I totally agree that 10 yards is too much, and even hit agree to your OP...however...given how often holding does happen in the league, a more severe penalty is unfortunately necessary to avoid it being tried even more than it already is.  

 

It is an unfortunately a necessary evil that can't go away.  

[BuffaloBaumer]

37 minutes ago, Logic said:

I think 10 yard penalty is perfect.

As others have said, a sack usually results in the loss of 5-7 yards anyway. If it was only a five yard penalty, people would hold all of the time to save themselves the down.

The penalty has to be bad enough that teams don't do it on purpose.

If we want to talk about the enforcement or language of holding penalties, that's fine, but the penalty yardage for it is right on point, IMO.

Now....defensive pass interference? THAT should change. 45-yard penalties that decide game outcomes are ridiculous and should not happen.

 

Why can't the refs determine if the hold was leading to a sack then? I mean when it is a running play and a ticky tack holding call is made, away from the play, there should be a difference. It's very comparable to running into the kicker and roughing the kicker, just separate the two calls.

[mikemac2001]

12 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

 

Why can't the refs determine if the hold was leading to a sack then? I mean when it is a running play and a ticky tack holding call is made, away from the play, there should be a difference. It's very comparable to running into the kicker and roughing the kicker, just separate the two calls.

You want more judgement calls from these refs? And then you got qbs like Lamar allen mahomes that can avoid sacks.

 

adding to much confusion no point to adjust the rule 

[The Wiz]

26 minutes ago, Augie said:

I think we should reconsider the forward pass. The game hasn’t been the same since they started allowing to forward pass. 

I think two forward passes should be allowed on the same play.

 

Talk about scoring 😂

[wagon127]

It should be a loss of down. Hold on defense, automatic 1st down, hold on offense, you get to try again. Crazy.

[unbillievable]

Make it a spot foul with a loss of down.

 

That assumes that the player being held would have made the stop on the play, whether it was a run or sack.

[slipkid]

As long as we're airing our penalty grievances, the following scenario bothers me way more than it should:

• Offense has a third and four at the opponent's six yard line.
• Defense called for Offside.
• They mark the ball half the distance to the goal line, which I get, but it's now third and one at the three. It should be first and goal at the three with the penalty making up the yards toward the first down, like anywhere else on the field.

I'll put this on the agenda for the next owner's meeting. You're welcome.

[sullim4]

I've never liked offensive holding as a 10 yard penalty.  It is highly dependent on the officiating crew in terms of whether it is called, and it often has zero impact on the play unlike something like defensive pass interference where the ball is required to be catchable.

 

I have been watching football for 35 years and I still don't fully understand what rises to the level of a hold, versus what's considered legitimate.

 

The argument that it saves a sack... well, since 1993, the average loss of yardage on a sack is 6.5 yards.  That's a lot closer to 5 yards than it is 10 yards.  It also doesn't take into account holds on running plays, which might result in a 1-2 yard loss if the hold didn't take place and the runner is somehow caught behind the line of scrimmage.

[BearNorth]

What about a compromise, Offensive holding is a 5 yard penalty and loss of down, similar to intentional grounding or a sack.

 

 

[Bferra13]

1 hour ago, FrenchConnection said:

I have always wondered why defensive holding is 5 yards and offensive holding is 10 yards.

Because points = more viewers which in turn = more $$$$. That's my view at least why the rules are so slanted against the D. 

[ColoradoBills]

I'm in the "keep it at 10 yards" group.  I'm old enough to remember this:

 

https://www.footballzebras.com/2019/10/nfl100-90-year-old-rules-made-for-a-different-game/#:~:text=Big fouls %3D big yardage penalties&text=Up through 1977%2C a holding,was a 20-yard penalty!

Big fouls = big yardage penalties

Today, a holding penalty puts the offense in a difficult position to keep the drive alive. Up through 1977, a holding penalty almost assuredly killed a drive. A holding penalty used to be 15-yards, from the spot of the foul. So, if the offense held five yards behind the line of scrimmage, the hold actually was a 20-yard penalty! Starting in 1978, all illegal blocking fouls (except personal fouls) were reduced from 15 to 10 yard penalties.

[WhoTom]

36 minutes ago, sullim4 said:

The argument that it saves a sack... well, since 1993, the average loss of yardage on a sack is 6.5 yards.  That's a lot closer to 5 yards than it is 10 yards. 

 

Yeah, but the penalty also negates the play, so the O gets an extra down, which provides added incentive to commit the hold.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Five yard penalty on a running play.

Ten yard penalty when pass blocking. 

[TheWeatherMan]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

The fact that this penalty basically happens on EVERY SINGLE DOWN, isn't it ridiculous that it is still 10 yards? These penalties are drive killers and they ruin the offensive vibe immediately. I don't think I have ever heard this being brought up at owner's meetings and there is no reason that it should not be 5 yards. What am I missing here?

Just make every penalty except personal fouls, DPI and OPI a spot penalty plus or minus 5 yards.  So for holding it’s the place of the hold -5 yards.  

[El_diablo]

What about changing the pass interference rule like they have in college.  10 yards.

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Success said:

People would hold a lot more.  10 yards is just.

Especially when you consider that they seldom call it anymore when the hold wasn’t instrumental in the success of the play on which it was called. That wasn’t always the case and it was infuriating when it was called against a player that was never really involved in the play to begin with. 

[HardyBoy]

1 hour ago, The Wiz said:

I think two forward passes should be allowed on the same play.

 

Talk about scoring 😂

 

Only if you're still in the air after catching the ball (pretty sure I stole that from maybe nfl blitz?).

[PonyBoy]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

I think 10 yard penalty is perfect.

As others have said, a sack usually results in the loss of 5-7 yards anyway. If it was only a five yard penalty, people would hold all of the time to save themselves the down.

The penalty has to be bad enough that teams don't do it on purpose.

If we want to talk about the enforcement or language of holding penalties, that's fine, but the penalty yardage for it is right on point, IMO.

Now....defensive pass interference? THAT should change. 45-yard penalties that decide game outcomes are ridiculous and should not happen.

We all have seen wide open receivers drop passes. Agree, why 45 yard DPI, assuming the WR would catch it, they do drop them some times, especially as it would be contested. That's why the flag is thrown because of close coverage, not uncontested. 

[Uncle Monkeyhead]

3 hours ago, Success said:

People would hold a lot more.  10 yards is just.

That’s what I initially thought. But it doesn’t deter holding with it being 10 yards already. I see it on 90% of pass plays. I think the point here would be if 5 yards, then a ref will likely call it more being that it’s not  as game changing, but still negates the play and affects the offense’s drive. The main reason it’s not called now is that the nfl wants this dynamic passing league with highlights galore. So with 5 yard penalty, the offense still has a chance to make the next play a pass play. If on third down, 10 yards might cause some teams to punt. Whereas 5 yards might net another pass attempt, keeping the pass happiness league MO going.