Need upgrades at WR

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I did not know Davis has a 54% career catch rate and is sitting at 47% this year. 
 

That’s really, really, really bad.

[Beck Water]

16 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I did not know Davis has a 54% career catch rate and is sitting at 47% this year. 
 

That’s really, really, really bad.

 

It is bad, but Josh doesn't help him out there by throwing a lot of balls his way when he's covered like a blanket.  He has also failed to haul in a number of catches that I think most would call "makeable", in addition to his 3 scored drops (drop % 8%)

 

8 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

9 snaps for Shakir.  He's growing cobwebs

 

OK, then let's put it a different way.  Shakir had 15 snaps against KC and 17 snaps against GB.   If he's all that and a bag of chips in the slot, why isn't he gaining 'market share' of the snaps?  The coaches are stupid?

 

To give him his propers, on several plays I analyzed with all-22, Shakir was Wiiiiiiide open, like college open, like dial up Jimmy Johns open.

The same was true at times of McKenzie and of Knox.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, BananaB said:

Shakir has hardly seen the field. His only game where he got a decent amount of snaps our O looked the best it has all season.

 

That may have had to do with the fact that the secondary we faced was one of the worst we faced all season (Pittsburgh, missing several starters)

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

That may have had to do with the fact that the secondary we faced was one of the worst we faced all season (Pittsburgh, missing several starters)

Same could be said for Gabe then

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Davis needs to get open more.  He is not getting consistent separation and has a catch rate of a dismal 54% on the season as a result.  I have been very high on Davis, and thought he had a shot to lead the team in yards and TD's this year with all the attention Diggs gets and his big play ability.  But facts are facts, it can't be over looked he is not getting open like we expected and has had some costly drops.  

 

Personally, I think Davis is struggling with the additional attention he is getting, especially with no one else (like a Beasley last year) being a serious threat elsewhere on the field.  Our slot production is a fraction what it was.

 

Its time to make Shakir a bigger focal point in the offense IMO.  We need someone there to step up, and its NOT McKenzie, to be another threat out there.  Because right now, we just saw 2 of the best secondaries in the league just clamp down on the big play threats of Diggs and Davis in the 2nd halves of these past 2 games and it threw our whole offense out of whack.  

 

We need to pose more of a threat else where to help open up our outside guys.  That includes running the ball and getting the RB's and Knox also more involved in the passing game.  

 

And we played right into it with allen and the playcalling.  Rather than exploit a team that's sitting in zone by running short quick stuff to any number of players, Allens back to holding the ball forever and freestyling.  5 sacks had to be the most in some time.  We even started a drive with shorter stuff and misdirection, mckenzie had a run and 2 catches, then a sneak for the 1st.  Felt like we were in business, and we ended up punting the game away right there basically.  

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

It is bad, but Josh doesn't help him out there by throwing a lot of balls his way when he's covered like a blanket.  He has also failed to haul in a number of catches that I think most would call "makeable", in addition to his 3 scored drops (drop % 8%)

 

 

OK, then let's put it a different way.  Shakir had 15 snaps against KC and 17 snaps against GB.   If he's all that and a bag of chips in the slot, why isn't he gaining 'market share' of the snaps?  The coaches are stupid?

 

To give him his propers, on several plays I analyzed with all-22, Shakir was Wiiiiiiide open, like college open, like dial up Jimmy Johns open.

The same was true at times of McKenzie and of Knox.

 

 

I think Allen is going to see a lot on this film.  he knows this loss is on him, but itll be more clear watching.  5 sacks, 2 bad picks on him, another 2 near picks, a bunch of dirted balls that should have been thrown better.  And thats not even getting into missing open receivers.  

 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

What are the realistic options at this point in the season beyond OBJ? He’s the main target but I’ll believe it when I see it. The trade deadline is over, if you don’t get OBJ, what are the other ideas?

[DrPJax]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:22 PM, whorlnut said:

Our playmakers are very underwhelming beyond Diggs. Our o line is garbage and we have no run game. Seemed Allen was running for his life at the snap more often than not today. Gotta start prioritizing the offense Beane. 

Some of this lies with Dorsey as well. Offense is looking somewhat stagnant / predictable.  Need to emphasize our strengths, must develop some running game by committing to it ( 8 carries, 24 yards won’t cut it) , need production from the slot ( shakir , Hines need production going forward ) , how bout more screens and quick slants to save Josh , consider moving the pocket, have to get Knox involved ( maybe look at KC’s film and use of Kelsey ).  Davis has been a let down regarding consistency tho , perhaps Beane could have parted with a higher pick to augment our wr before the trade deadline.  But I think dorsey is also experiencing growing pains. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:18 PM, Jerry Jabber said:

I hate to say it, but losing Beasley and Sanders has hurt the Bills offense. The dropoff between Beasley and McKenzie has been huge. Since put in the #2 WR role, Davis hasn’t had the same kind of production. 
 

Hopefully Von’s recruitment of OBJ will payoff as we need a #2 WR. If that happens and Davis goes back to being a #3 WR, hopefully his production will go up. In regards to the slot receiver position, hopefully Hines will be used more in that role as McKenzie has underperformed in that role so far this season.

 

Gabe Davis is a better option than Emmanuel Sanders IMO, I agree that Beasley was Allen's safety blanket but that should now go to Dawson Know and hopefully this is a reason we signed RB Nyheim Hines. All 3 of our RB's can catch and we are seriously underutilizing them, I think Hines can be every bit as effective as Austin Ekeler in SD (In the passing game) since he's lethal in the open field. Knox, Hines need to step up in the passing game.

Edited November 8, 2022 by BuffaloBillsGospel2014

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Would bringing in a veteran guy like Adam Humphries give Allen the Beasley type safety blanket? I know he’s not a world beater but he was a productive guy in the slot and seems to be a FA. You really don’t need a guy to play outside at this point. You need a guy to win underneath in the dirty areas. 

[RyanC883]

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

It is bad, but Josh doesn't help him out there by throwing a lot of balls his way when he's covered like a blanket.  He has also failed to haul in a number of catches that I think most would call "makeable", in addition to his 3 scored drops (drop % 8%)

 

 

OK, then let's put it a different way.  Shakir had 15 snaps against KC and 17 snaps against GB.   If he's all that and a bag of chips in the slot, why isn't he gaining 'market share' of the snaps?  The coaches are stupid?

 

To give him his propers, on several plays I analyzed with all-22, Shakir was Wiiiiiiide open, like college open, like dial up Jimmy Johns open.

The same was true at times of McKenzie and of Knox.

 

is the conclusion Allen is not reading the D/field well?  

[JoshAllin]

I'd like to see Shakir play from kickoff all the way down to the redzone then sub in Mckenzie as his only strong suit so far is finding the endzone with his 4 TD's this season and 3 other missed TD's that should have been there for him and be corrected

[Pete]

15 hours ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

The Knox contract is looking worse by the game

The Knox contract is looking worse by the game

The Knox contract is looking worse by the game

The Knox contract is looking worse by the game

The Knox contract is looking worse by the game

The Knox contract is looking worse by the game

did you happen to catch the Bills-KC game?

Just now, Pete said:

did you happen to catch the Bills-KC game?

did you happen to catch the Bills-KC game?

did you happen to catch the Bills-KC game?

did you happen to catch the Bills-KC game?

did you happen to catch the Bills-KC game?did you happen to catch the Bills-KC game?

[Jerry Jabber]

28 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

 

Gabe Davis is a better option than Emmanuel Sanders IMO, I agree that Beasley was Allen's safety blanket but that should now go to Dawson Know and hopefully this is a reason we signed RB Nyheim Hines. All 3 of our RB's can catch and we are seriously underutilizing them, I think Hines can be every bit as effective as Austin Ekeler in SD (In the passing game) since he's lethal in the open field. Knox, Hines need to step up in the passing game.

I disagree about Davis being better than Sanders. Davis is good at catching balls when he’s open with no DB on him. But when he’s having to fend off a DB, he’s been struggling. With being a #2 WR, Davis is now going against teams top 2 DB’s and he hasn’t been consistent against them. When he was the Bills #3 WR, he was having more success.  
 

I’m hoping Hines will get up to speed quick and be an effective option in the offense. As far as Knox goes, I put some blame on him as well as Dorsey. Dorsey needs to make adjustments to put receivers in better positions.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Might be better to put Davis and Shakir on the outside and just play Diggs in the slot. You still have to respect Davis downfield ability, maybe we could get some killer matchups and catch and run chances for Diggs inside.

[zow2]

Well come contract time, I’m thinking Gabe will have to find his $$ somewhere else. He’s that super luxury Ferrari. Every once in a while it gets taken out on the open road and performs amazing things.  But mostly you need it to drive to work and be useful on the crowded roads. Hmmmm. Not sure where i’m going here. Lol.

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

55 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I disagree about Davis being better than Sanders. Davis is good at catching balls when he’s open with no DB on him. But when he’s having to fend off a DB, he’s been struggling. With being a #2 WR, Davis is now going against teams top 2 DB’s and he hasn’t been consistent against them. When he was the Bills #3 WR, he was having more success.  
 

I’m hoping Hines will get up to speed quick and be an effective option in the offense. As far as Knox goes, I put some blame on him as well as Dorsey. Dorsey needs to make adjustments to put receivers in better positions.

 

Agree to disagree on Davis, I feel he's doing a fine job, already tied Sanders whole season in TD with 4 last year, less than 200 yards away from surpassing Sanders in yards and is averaging a awesome 25.1 yards per catch so I'm not sure what more you want from the guy, it's only year 1 as a full time starter. 

I agree with [partial blame on Dorsey and Knox but Knox is definitely going through some things most likely due to his brother passing away. I figure though Knox will pick it up at some point and I really hope Dorsey utilizes Hines also. 

[Jerry Jabber]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

 

Agree to disagree on Davis, I feel he's doing a fine job, already tied Sanders whole season in TD with 4 last year, less than 200 yards away from surpassing Sanders in yards and is averaging a awesome 25.1 yards per catch so I'm not sure what more you want from the guy, it's only year 1 as a full time starter. 

I agree with [partial blame on Dorsey and Knox but Knox is definitely going through some things most likely due to his brother passing away. I figure though Knox will pick it up at some point and I really hope Dorsey utilizes Hines also. 

I can sympathize with Knox as I lost my brother 25 years ago, it’s a devastating thing to go through. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

9 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I can sympathize with Knox as I lost my brother 25 years ago, it’s a devastating thing to go through. 

 

Sorry to hear and I can only imagine especially at such a young age.

[Bookie Man]

Once they recommit to the run game, things will begin to open up. 

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, ßookie_tech said:

Once they recommit to the run game, things will begin to open up. 

I disagree. We haven’t had a run game in a few years. Things were “opened up” last year and the year before. The problem is the overall talent of the receiving corp outside of Diggs. Hence the reason for this thread. 

[AlfaBill]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:20 PM, Dr.Sack said:

CBS convinced Allen has a sore arm. Don’t need WRs if your QB can’t throw. 

Yeah. That 80 yard bomb that hit Davis in the chest at the end of last week is a QB who can’t through. 
 

4 minutes ago, ßookie_tech said:

Once they recommit to the run game, things will begin to open up. 

I agree. The run game will NOT a win is games but it looked good enough at times to be somewhat effective. The team just move away from it! Used properly it will keep opposing Ds ho eat and help with the passing game. That said yes we need a good 2. Davis isn’t good enough. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by AlfaBill

[Beck Water]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:18 PM, Jerry Jabber said:

I hate to say it, but losing Beasley and Sanders has hurt the Bills offense. The dropoff between Beasley and McKenzie has been huge. Since put in the #2 WR role, Davis hasn’t had the same kind of production. 
 

Hopefully Von’s recruitment of OBJ will payoff as we need a #2 WR. If that happens and Davis goes back to being a #3 WR, hopefully his production will go up. In regards to the slot receiver position, hopefully Hines will be used more in that role as McKenzie has underperformed in that role so far this season.

 

I think it's fair to say that Davis and McKenzie have not stepped up as was expected of them pre-season.

 

However, I thought this quote from Dorsey's presser yesterday was telling:

 

Quote

"What we try to stress with Josh especially is once the plays are in, trust your reads, trust your progressions, trust your eyes and where that read takes you, then that's where you go," Dorsey said. "Don't rely on any one thing. Don't rely on any one person, and I think that's when we're at our best is when we're doing that.

 

What he's implying is what some of us see on film: Josh may be a bit over-focused on throwing to Diggs and to Davis, even if there are other players who are more open and have a chance to make a play.

 

Also this:

Quote

One of the first stats Dorsey said he looks at after a game is how many receivers got multiple targets. 

"It just creates issues for a defense when you can create multiple guys with multiple targets, especially when they're at different positions," he said. "So I think that's a that's going to be obviously a continued focus for us moving forward. That makes you difficult to defend when you can be multiple in in those different areas."

 

Davis and Knox and McKenzie can't throw themselves the ball.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Beck Water

[Nextmanup]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think it's fair to say that Davis and McKenzie have not stepped up as was expected of them pre-season.

 

However, I thought this quote from Dorsey's presser yesterday was telling:

 

 

What he's implying is what some of us see on film: Josh may be a bit over-focused on throwing to Diggs and to Davis, even if there are other players who are more open and have a chance to make a play.

 

Also this:

 

Davis and Knox and McKenzie can't throw themselves the ball.

Here's what we learned against the Jets:

 

Diggs can get open against anyone; the other WRs on staff have trouble against really good defenses with good defensive backfields.

 

I wanted OBJ 2 months ago; I want him even more now after the Jets game.

 

Need more raw talent and consistency at receiving positions.

 

 

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Here's what we learned against the Jets:

 

Diggs can get open against anyone; the other WRs on staff have trouble against really good defenses with good defensive backfields.

 

I wanted OBJ 2 months ago; I want him even more now after the Jets game.

 

Need more raw talent and consistency at receiving positions.

 

I would like more talent at receiving positions.  I was one of the people who was not happy this off season that we didn't do more at OL and WR.

 

But "here's what we learned against the Jets", maybe speak for yourself?

 

The all-22 isn't out yet, but what I saw on most plays I looked at were at least 1, usually 2, NFL-open options on most plays.  Josh usually has options, for whatever reason he simply isn't taking them or is waiting too long in the play looking for Diggs or Davis.

 

Diggs had 5 catches for 93 yards in the first half, none in the second half; why is that, if he can "get open against anyone" (or any coverage?)

[BananaB]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think it's fair to say that Davis and McKenzie have not stepped up as was expected of them pre-season.

 

However, I thought this quote from Dorsey's presser yesterday was telling:

 

 

What he's implying is what some of us see on film: Josh may be a bit over-focused on throwing to Diggs and to Davis, even if there are other players who are more open and have a chance to make a play.

 

Also this:

 

Davis and Knox and McKenzie can't throw themselves the ball.

Davis can’t catch either

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Davis can’t catch either

 

It's not as bad as the #s because he's tagged as the target on some balls that really weren't catchable for him - Josh's 4Q INT for example  - but that might be 10% of his targets and bring him up to 55% catch rate.

 

He's not catching as well as need him to, though, for reals. 

 

 

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, ßookie_tech said:

Once they recommit to the run game, things will begin to open up. 

 

A run game would help, but I'd bet that other receivers are open more than their targets show.

 

There were 34 pass attempts on Sunday.   One was apparently a throwaway to which no target was assigned, so 33.

15 of them went to Davis and Diggs, of which 7 were completed (46.6%)

2 others were deep overthrows to Kumerow and Hines. (0%)

 

Of the remaining 16 throws to Singletary, Cook, McKenzie, and Knox, 68.7% of them were completed.

 

I'm gonna make a wild guess that if I were to go look at the 10 incompletions thrown to Davis, Diggs, or deep, I would find at least one receiver open underneath with a reasonable throwing lane and a chance for YAC on at least 6 or 7 of them, and that throwing to those guys would have resulted in some sustained drives.

 

Dorsey is one of the least-informative, snooziest pressers I've listened to, but again, I think it's very telling that he specifically mentioned "trust your reads, trust your progressions, trust your eyes and where that read takes you, then that's where you go", not over-relying on one person, the importance of multiple guys with multiple targets, and distributing the ball (several times).

 

He said the statutory McDermott "putting our players in better positions" kind of stuff, too, of course, but it didn't get cycled the way distributing the ball and multiple guys and not trusting too much in one guy did.

 

 

 

 

[Beck Water]

 

On 11/6/2022 at 3:35 PM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I would have like to see Gabe go up for the ball instead of letting it come to him

 

Huh?  Sauce was right there.  Davis put out an arm to hold him off.  The minute Gabe goes up for the ball, he loses any leverage

[DuckyBoys]

Davis has been inconsistent   Knox is invisible.  Would like to see more Shakir.  Would like to see Josh use the backs and Gilliam more  Take some of the load off of the qb having to make difficult throws downfield and be a battering ram

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

Huh?  Sauce was right there.  Davis put out an arm to hold him off.  The minute Gabe goes up for the ball, he loses any leverage

 

Putting out his arm (pushing off) negated any chance of drawing a PI. From what i recall Sauce never got his head around. Now Sauce didn't really make much contact but had Gabe made a strong move for the ball by going up and not pushing off he possibly could have drawn a flag with the DB not playing the ball. As it played out it looked like Gabe had to track the ball as it went through/by Sauce's arm making it a tougher catch. At any rate, anything other than what played out would have been worth trying.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

Huh?  Sauce was right there.  Davis put out an arm to hold him off.  The minute Gabe goes up for the ball, he loses any leverage

I would’ve liked to see him stop and go up for the ball also instead of push off. He could’ve created a lot more contact to try and get the call.

 

Reason I don’t complain about PI is because Gabe tried pushing off .

[Beck Water]

Okay Goys and Birls

I was off reading on another thread about how we should cut Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie when we bring in OBJ.

Then of course the current height of TBD fashion is to dunk on Isaiah McKenzie

And Gabe Davis seems to be lining up as the next TBD whipping boy.

 

I thought I'd put together some factoids, so here ya go: WR performance table for Bills as of Week 8.

If you click the thing it will enlarge.

 

If y'all might want to recommend benching, cutting, etc. thought that might be useful - or Naaaaaaaah??? 🐐

 

Keep in mind that Gabe Davis does legit get some high degree of difficulty throws where he's well covered or has a safety closing fast.

And of course, these guys can't throw themselves the ball. 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Beck Water

[Nextmanup]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:37 AM, ßookie_tech said:

Once they recommit to the run game, things will begin to open up. 

 

On 11/8/2022 at 10:40 AM, whorlnut said:

I disagree. We haven’t had a run game in a few years. Things were “opened up” last year and the year before. The problem is the overall talent of the receiving corp outside of Diggs. Hence the reason for this thread. 

What is it with the love of the run game at this forum?! 

 

If we win the SB this year, it will be because we are flinging the ball all over the field.

If we don't, it will be because we lost to a team that did, probably KC.

 

 

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

On 11/8/2022 at 7:40 AM, whorlnut said:

I disagree. We haven’t had a run game in a few years. Things were “opened up” last year and the year before. The problem is the overall talent of the receiving corp outside of Diggs. Hence the reason for this thread. 

At the three-quarter mark of last year we were running the ball well can we please stop with the revisionist history

[PrimeTime101]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:25 PM, BadboyBills said:

We just need to execute like how we were before.

like before before? 

 

Having a very fast #2 WR in Smoke and having a guy that could get open fast in Beasley is WHY we are struggling. When do not have the right weapons, the weakness of your offensive line shows way more. Davis and most defiantly Shakir needs more time at the position. Our first 2 of our first 3 picks need to be G, G or Guard and a Tackle. 

 

The only way you make up for offensive line issues is the right weapons... We do not have the right weapons.

 

On top of it all, we have a struggling OC.

[Bookie Man]

8 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

 

What is it with the love of the run game at this forum?! 

 

If we win the SB this year, it will be because we are flinging the ball all over the field.

If we don't, it will be because we lost to a team that did, probably KC.

 

 

 

 

 

Started playing their best football last season when they started to feed Singletary more.  2nd half of Tampa game. 

[78thealltimegreat]

14 hours ago, Beck Water said:

Okay Goys and Birls

I was off reading on another thread about how we should cut Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie when we bring in OBJ.

Then of course the current height of TBD fashion is to dunk on Isaiah McKenzie

And Gabe Davis seems to be lining up as the next TBD whipping boy.

 

I thought I'd put together some factoids, so here ya go: WR performance table for Bills as of Week 8.

If you click the thing it will enlarge.

 

If y'all might want to recommend benching, cutting, etc. thought that might be useful - or Naaaaaaaah??? 🐐

 

Keep in mind that Gabe Davis does legit get some high degree of difficulty throws where he's well covered or has a safety closing fast.

And of course, these guys can't throw themselves the ball. 

 

 

 

The lack of throws to Knox is concerning he’s Josh’s guy in the middle of the field seems like he just isn’t getting open 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 11/8/2022 at 7:37 AM, ßookie_tech said:

Once they recommit to the run game, things will begin to open up. 

Shady was the last time the Bills staff ever committed to a run game. It's been awhile 2017. In 2018 we started phasing McCoy out to let Josh do his thing.

Edited November 11, 2022 by LABILLBACKER

[Bronxbomber21]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:22 PM, PolishPrince said:

I dont understand why we cant dial up plays to get Knox the ball, or Shakir. Shakir looks good the few times hes been targeted, yet we refuse to use him

Its time to Start Shakir in the slot I don't know why the Coaches are so keen on starting Mckenzie when there is a better option. Even better get OBJ in hear two play the wr2 and move Davis to wr3 

[CoudyBills]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:26 PM, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Based on a play in the last minute of the game. There was a lot of other issues. 

 

I also think the jets got a lot better since they last played. 
 

 

I read this a lot.  The Dolphins are better, the Jets are better.  The Bills were the superbowl favorites.