Tipped Balls are becoming an issue-thoughts as to why??

[Big Turk]

Allen seems to be having a lot of tipped balls this year from watching the games and looking at the numbers it's significantly more than last year.

 

He is tied for the league lead with 12 batted balls with Mayfield who has to field questions as to why he was having so many. Granted Allen has 80+ more attempts but still, compared to last year even, it's significantly more.

 

Herbert led the NFL with 17 last season, Allen had the second most at 16. Currently he is on pace to have 34 which would be an outrageous number.

 

So I am wondering if there is something that is causing this that anyone has noticed? Is it him getting rid of the balls quicker? The shorter throws he is making more regularly? Bad luck? DLinemen stopping a rush to try and bat the ball down more?

 

Curious as to if Allen, Dorsey or McD will start getting asked about this if the media notices...

 

I can't find anything concrete on this but it appears Allen may be on pace to set a new batted balls record.  I read an article from late October of 2018 that talked about how Cousins was on pace for 32 that year with the previous record being 23 in 2006. I don't have any final tally on Cousins for that year.

 

Can't find the final numbers for 2018, but 2019-2021, the highest is Baker with 20 in 2019. 

 

Allen's numbers:

 

2019: 10

2020: 4

2021: 16

2022: 12(thru 6 games)

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Big Turk

[GolfandBills]

Allen is getting the ball out quicker this year and defensive lineman are taught to go for the batted pass if they can’t get to the QB.  Probably more circumstance than anything.  Allen also throws the ball a ton too so there’s more opportunities for batted balls. 

[Donuts and Doritos]

Bc Josh is soo short.

[MPT]

I believe it's because defenses are trying to take away the deep passes and force Allen to throw short more often. They are probably also coached to maintain their gaps and get hands up rather than pin their ears back and chase him out of the pocket which would also give him more time and more room to throw or a chance to scramble for a long run.

Edited October 19, 2022 by MPT

[Rc2catch]

2 minutes ago, MPT said:

I believe it's because defenses are trying to take away the deep passes and force Allen to throw short more often. They are probably also coached to maintain their gaps and get hands up rather than pin their ears back and chase him out of the pocket which would also give him more time and more room to throw or a chance to scramble for a long run.

I was gonna type something similar but yours sounds much better lol 

[Matt_In_NH]

Blocked FGs and XPs are a bigger issue 

[VW82]

I've always been of two minds on this issue: 1. it's super ***** annoying when your QB consistently gets balls batted and risks INTs; 2. it's a pretty a good sign that our QB isn't feeling the rush enough to worry about anything but placing the ball in a spot that the receiver will catch it. It'd be nice to have 2. without 1. but if this is all we have left to pick on Josh, we're pretty damn spoiled.  

[Warcodered]

Josh is clearly trying to break the D-lines hands to help his O-line block better.

[njbuff]

I almost thought this was a Christian Wilkins thread for a second.

[Patrick Duffy]

Those pesky Dline-men keep putting their hands in the way

[AlfaBill]

Is it too early to say this is not sustainable ?

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, MPT said:

I believe it's because defenses are trying to take away the deep passes and force Allen to throw short more often. They are probably also coached to maintain their gaps and get hands up rather than pin their ears back and chase him out of the pocket which would also give him more time and more room to throw or a chance to scramble for a long run.

 

 

This. Longer balls are thrown higher and he's throwing shorter even more often this year, so it's easier for them to reach it.

 

Defenses seeing that have to teach their DLs that if he throws quick there's only one way to affect the pass since you can't reach him. It's more of the chess match between D and O, I think.

 

In turn, we're seeing Allen do more sidearm and arm-angled throws to make it harder on them.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Big Turk]

11 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I've always been of two minds on this issue: 1. it's super ***** annoying when your QB consistently gets balls batted and risks INTs; 2. it's a pretty a good sign that our QB isn't feeling the rush enough to worry about anything but placing the ball in a spot that the receiver will catch it. It'd be nice to have 2. without 1. but if this is all we have left to pick on Josh, we're pretty damn spoiled.  

 

I mean for the most part I agree, until it happens in a situation like it did with Rodgers against the Giants on 4th and goal from the 2 yard line needing a TD to win late in the 4th and the ball gets batted. And then people are going to ask "Why is Allen having so many tipped balls?"

[TailgateChef]

17 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I've always been of two minds on this issue: 1. it's super ***** annoying when your QB consistently gets balls batted and risks INTs; 2. it's a pretty a good sign that our QB isn't feeling the rush enough to worry about anything but placing the ball in a spot that the receiver will catch it. It'd be nice to have 2. without 1. but if this is all we have left to pick on Josh, we're pretty damn spoiled.  

"That's gold Jerry!"

[NoSaint]

15 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

This. Longer balls are thrown higher and he's throwing shorter even more often this year, so it's easier for them to reach it.

 

Defenses seeing that have to teach their DLs that if he throws quick there's only one way to affect the pass since you can't reach him. It's more of the chess match between D and O, I think.

 

In turn, we're seeing Allen do more oddly angled throws to make it harder on them.

allen is not uniquely throwing short routes at a clip that would explain 100% more than the league leader last year and an nfl record I believe.

 

either there’s some dumb luck (likely some), a blocking technique issue (likely something here too), an issue with the throwers technique (maybe but he has history of it not being an issue) or possibly something with the pairing of the route trees paired with blocking schemes (are we possibly running wrs into zones that pair with pass rushers likely being in the way)

Edited October 19, 2022 by NoSaint

[Brand J]

I don’t recall Mahomes ever having issues with batted passes (and he throws shorter more often than Josh) but he does have 5,287 ways to deliver the football.

[John from Riverside]

Josh working that short game whenever you don’t get is deep on your drop it’s easier for the defensive line to get their hands up to bat the ball

[Augie]

Has anyone mentioned we threw three weeks worth of passes in a single game? We throw the ball……..A LOT. 

[WideNine]

Probably more of a sign of both Allen throwing more quickly and throwing from the pocket.

 

Earlier in his career Allen held the ball longer, almost always took off or rolled away from the pocket as he often had protection breakdowns. Finding throwing lanes was not an issue when rolling away from traffic.

 

Not super concerned, as Allen has shown he adapts and works on anything he thinks will improve his game. He will adjust to throwing from different arm angles around defenders or will find the lanes to avoid those hands when in the pocket.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by WideNine

[NewEra]

Jmo-  more teams are focusing on containing Josh rather than just getting to him.  While playing contain and focusing on staying in their lanes.it’s easier for DLmen to time their jumps and deflect the passes. 

[Beck Water]

This is total speculation, but I wonder if it has to do with the OL adjusting to what seems to be a more zone blocking scheme where the players have to pass guys off to each other more? 

 

Might make it easier for the defenders to step back and jump?

[Scott7975]

My guess is its just that more and more defenses are taught to get their hands up.  Couple that with how they probably rush Josh to play a little contain instead of just pinning their ears back now.  They are probably in better position to do that than before.  Also sometimes its due to the lineman not maintaining contact with the rusher.

[Big Turk]

15 minutes ago, Augie said:

Has anyone mentioned we threw three weeks worth of passes in a single game? We throw the ball……..A LOT. 

 

63 passes is not 3 weeks worth of passes...maybe 2 weeks at best. Unless you are the Bears throwing 25 passes a game...well, no not even then.

 

That still doesn't explain why other teams who throw lots of passes don't have the same issues

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

This is total speculation, but I wonder if it has to do with the OL adjusting to what seems to be a more zone blocking scheme where the players have to pass guys off to each other more? 

 

Might make it easier for the defenders to step back and jump?

 

That might be...by and large Allen has received very good pass protection most of the year so it would not be surprising that DLineman who have been stonewalled are just jumping since they can't get there.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Big Turk

[Thurman#1]

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Jmo-  more teams are focusing on containing Josh rather than just getting to him.  While playing contain and focusing on staying in their lanes.it’s easier for DLmen to time their jumps and deflect the passes. 

 

 

Good point. This probably has a lot to do with it as well.

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Allen seems to be having a lot of tipped balls this year from watching the games and looking at the numbers it's significantly more than last year.

 

He is tied for the league lead with 12 batted balls with Mayfield who has to field questions as to why he was having so many. Granted Allen has 80+ more attempts but still, compared to last year even, it's significantly more.

 

Herbert led the NFL with 17 last season, Allen had the second most at 16. Currently he is on pace to have 34 which would be an outrageous number.

 

So I am wondering if there is something that is causing this that anyone has noticed? Is it him getting rid of the balls quicker? The shorter throws he is making more regularly? Bad luck? DLinemen stopping a rush to try and bat the ball down more?

 

Curious as to if Allen, Dorsey or McD will start getting asked about this if the media notices...

 

I can't find anything concrete on this but it appears Allen may be on pace to set a new batted balls record.  I read an article from late October of 2018 that talked about how Cousins was on pace for 32 that year with the previous record being 23 in 2006. I don't have any final tally on Cousins for that year.

 

Can't find the final numbers for 2018, but 2019-2021, the highest is Baker with 20 in 2019. 

 

Allen's numbers:

 

2019: 10

2020: 4

2021: 16

2022: 12(thru 6 games)

 

Throwing more short passes, less arc. (Is my guess.)

[Beck Water]

18 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Jmo-  more teams are focusing on containing Josh rather than just getting to him.  While playing contain and focusing on staying in their lanes.it’s easier for DLmen to time their jumps and deflect the passes. 

 

Actually, this is an excellent point.

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Allen seems to be having a lot of tipped balls this year from watching the games and looking at the numbers it's significantly more than last year.

 

He is tied for the league lead with 12 batted balls with Mayfield who has to field questions as to why he was having so many. Granted Allen has 80+ more attempts but still, compared to last year even, it's significantly more.

 

Herbert led the NFL with 17 last season, Allen had the second most at 16. Currently he is on pace to have 34 which would be an outrageous number.

 

So I am wondering if there is something that is causing this that anyone has noticed? Is it him getting rid of the balls quicker? The shorter throws he is making more regularly? Bad luck? DLinemen stopping a rush to try and bat the ball down more?

 

Curious as to if Allen, Dorsey or McD will start getting asked about this if the media notices...

 

I can't find anything concrete on this but it appears Allen may be on pace to set a new batted balls record.  I read an article from late October of 2018 that talked about how Cousins was on pace for 32 that year with the previous record being 23 in 2006. I don't have any final tally on Cousins for that year.

 

Can't find the final numbers for 2018, but 2019-2021, the highest is Baker with 20 in 2019. 

 

Allen's numbers:

 

2019: 10

2020: 4

2021: 16

2022: 12(thru 6 games)

 

 

Question: do they have info on batted balls game by game?

[Boatdrinks]

Didn’t they always say tipped balls mean the OL is allowing DLs to get too close to the QB? I think I heard that a lot during the Flutie years. 

[Wyobills89]

Josh's howitzer trying to wing it into shorter routes. He doesn't arc his passes as much as others especially on the routes shorter than 15 yards. I'm sure this kinda helps the defense get hands on it more. Sometimes josh will have nice touch passes but then other times he's rifling it in. 

[NoSaint]

39 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

Throwing more short passes, less arc. (Is my guess.)

I don’t think there’s anything indicating we are throwing so many short passes that Josh would be on pace for a record number or tipped balls. 
 

 

[Dr.Sack]

It’s harder for the DL to do this if they are playing on their heels being knocked back by the OL. This tells me our OL isn’t knocking them back with jarring hits, DL are controlling our OL and in control enough to jump or rise on their toes and make plays on the ball. OL coaches typically say when the DL eyes widen and they raise a hand to knock them with two hands in the chest. 

[NoSaint]

39 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Actually, this is an excellent point.

 

Question: do they have info on batted balls game by game?

Tipped balls a big play for a defense. If they figured out how to do it to Josh wouldn’t they do it to everyone?

 

again, I think this may be either a blocking issue (letting guys get high without getting a good hit in) or not getting our line and routes synced up on timing yet (throwing a quick pass through a zone where a blocker would find himself in pass pro)

[Big Turk]

43 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Actually, this is an excellent point.

 

Question: do they have info on batted balls game by game?

 

I believe so...should be in the advanced passing metrics in the game log

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

It’s harder for the DL to do this if they are playing on their heels being knocked back by the OL. This tells me our OL isn’t knocking them back with jarring hits, DL are controlling our OL and in control enough to jump or rise on their toes and make plays on the ball. OL coaches typically say when the DL eyes widen and they raise a hand to knock them with two hands in the chest. 

my gut tends to be here, though I think Kromer is top notch so it surprises me to be saying that. We will see what film says at some point probably 

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

It’s harder for the DL to do this if they are playing on their heels being knocked back by the OL. This tells me our OL isn’t knocking them back with jarring hits, DL are controlling our OL and in control enough to jump or rise on their toes and make plays on the ball. OL coaches typically say when the DL eyes widen and they raise a hand to knock them with two hands in the chest. 

 

I'm not sure how much this comes into play on pass protection...it's very rare when you see someone shoving back someone in pass blocking. Run blocking, sure. Pass blocking is more preventing them from getting past them as they are going backwards while blocking so their momentum isn't even right for them to be able to knock someone backwards

[JoPoy88]

4 hours ago, NoSaint said:

I don’t think there’s anything indicating we are throwing so many short passes that Josh would be on pace for a record number or tipped balls. 
 

 

that’s why i said it was a guess. Could be any number of things, including the reasons you suggested. Idk. Tipped balls are bad-they lead to easy interceptions. 
 

I’ll say this at least-I don't think Allen’s the problem.

Edited October 19, 2022 by JoPoy88

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I knew it… wrong Josh!  When’s the last time you heard about Rosen having a tipped pass

[CSBill]

Multiple factors:

• An emphasis of D-lineman being taught to get their hands up when they can't get to the passer.
• More check-downs and short pass attempts--which often require lower arm and throwing angles, or the QB to pass around people.
• Staying in the pocket, where the probability of this goes up.
• And, human error.

[Billsfan1972]

As someone mentioned so eloquently in one of my threads.....  Who cares, the Bills win.😝

 

Interesting stat and something to watch for.

[BarleyNY]

10 hours ago, MPT said:

I believe it's because defenses are trying to take away the deep passes and force Allen to throw short more often. They are probably also coached to maintain their gaps and get hands up rather than pin their ears back and chase him out of the pocket which would also give him more time and more room to throw or a chance to scramble for a long run.

This. If the defense is taking away the deep pass, which is what all seem to be moving to against good QBs, then they expect a quick pass. That means the DL knows they can’t get to the QB and is instead is looking to bat down that quick pass. When those DL get two hands up and expose their bodies, you want to see the OL make them pay for it though.

[Manther]

3 hours ago, CSBill said:

Multiple factors:

• An emphasis of D-lineman being taught to get their hands up when they can't get to the passer.
• More check-downs and short pass attempts--which often require lower arm and throwing angles, or the QB to pass around people.
• Staying in the pocket, where the probability of this goes up.
• And, human error.

Agreed