Brian Daboll hired to be Head Coach of NY Giants

[Patrick Duffy]

5 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Why would Dorsey leave if it comes down to a choice between being OC in NY or Buffalo?  And if offered the OC here, it then becomes a lateral move so the Bills can just say no to NY.  He knows what he has in Allen, from everything written they have a close relationship. 

Yeah one would think. Never know what's on the mind of ppl though. Maybe the bigger payday is more important, who knows...

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Just now, Old Coot said:

I hope you are right.

 

Let's put it this way, if I'm not right the only likely reason is the Bills didn't offer him the OC role and maybe the not ever called plays is scaring them off or other things.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

19 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

To suggest Daboll had little to nothing to do with his development is ridiculous.

I never said he didn’t.  Like I said, they helped each other.  

[Reed83HOF]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

But keep in mind it's not just Josh who has to master a new playbook, it's everyone else on the offense.  I'm not saying they can't, but a WCO is conceptually usually a very different offense, very timed.

Find it hard to believe they would change the offense scheme, which honestly does not make sense

 

I don't see Josh playing in a contained timed offense, sorry I don't. That is not his style or a scheme he is suited for IMO

[Mrbojanglezs]

29 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

What’s the O/U?

 

3 years?

 

2.5

[Nihilarian]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Erm....Matt LaFleur is still the head coach in Green Bay.  He's not coming to Buffalo to be our OC.

 

But keep in mind it's not just Josh who has to master a new playbook, it's everyone else on the offense.  I'm not saying they can't, but a WCO is conceptually usually a very different offense, very timed.

I realize that. Just saying, someone from that coaching tree. Shanahan/McVay-WCO tree.

 

Like I said, Josh is a very, very bright guy.  Wonderlic, 37. 

 

I think it would be good for him to learn other offenses.

[Reed83HOF]

1 minute ago, Nihilarian said:

I realize that. Just saying, someone from that coaching tree. Shanahan/McVay-WCO tree.

 

Like I said, Josh is a very, very bright guy.  Wonderlic, 37. 

 

I think it would be good for him to learn other offenses.

we are a super bowl team, we are not changing schemes now on offense which is one of the best offense in the league

[Nihilarian]

1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said:

we are a super bowl team, we are not changing schemes now on offense which is one of the best offense in the league

That really depends on if Ken Dorsey stays or not IMO.

 

While someone like Mike Schula might know that scheme and has run it before. Who is to say the guy would be successful in Buffalo, even with a unicorn the Bills have at QB. He stunk with the NY Giants in 2018-2019, with Eli Manning (and that was with a healthy Saquon Barkley) / Daniel Jones as his QBs.  

 

Don't know that the Bills should be as concerned with keeping the scheme over finding a top OC replacement.

[NoSaint]

28 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Why would Dorsey leave if it comes down to a choice between being OC in NY or Buffalo?  And if offered the OC here, it then becomes a lateral move so the Bills can just say no to NY.  He knows what he has in Allen, from everything written they have a close relationship. 

the easiest answer: maybe he doesn’t feel ready to run the show on his own and likes the safety blanket of daboll in the room to coach him through some of the learning curve, help him stock the position coaches, provide a lot of playbook and play calling support etc…  
 

a lot of posters are jumping to “he must hate McD” but I think having a safety net might be the real thing.

[Reed83HOF]

Just now, Nihilarian said:

That really depends on if Ken Dorsey stays or not IMO.

 

While someone like Mike Schula might know that scheme and has run it before. Who is to say the guy would be successful in Buffalo, even with a unicorn the Bills have at QB. He stunk with the NY Giants in 2018-2019, with Eli Manning (and that was with a healthy Saquon Barkley) / Daniel Jones as his QBs.  

 

Don't know that the Bills should be as concerned with keeping the scheme over finding a top OC replacement.

 

Do you even understand what a scheme change entails?

 

A top OC replacement is someone who can build a scheme around their players and doesn't try to fit a scheme on players who are not a fit for their scheme.

 

We have one of the top scoring offenses in the NFL, we have a scheme that had players drafted, traded for, signed and developed under it - why would you change that? To get a top OC guy? at what cost to the roster and knowledge you have in a system that is one of the top scoring offenses in the league?

 

FWIW Bellicheck has the same coaching record as Rex Ryan without Brady...

Just now, NoSaint said:

the easiest answer: maybe he doesn’t feel ready to run the show on his own and likes the safety blanket of daboll in the room to coach him through some of the learning curve, help him stock the position coaches, provide a lot of playbook and play calling support etc…  
 

a lot of posters are jumping to “he must hate McD” but I think having a safety net might be the real thing.

He can still learn under Daboll, here he is the HC off the offense.

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Do you even understand what a scheme change entails?

 

A top OC replacement is someone who can build a scheme around their players and doesn't try to fit a scheme on players who are not a fit for their scheme.

 

We have one of the top scoring offenses in the NFL, we have a scheme that had players drafted, traded for, signed and developed under it - why would you change that? To get a top OC guy? at what cost to the roster and knowledge you have in a system that is one of the top scoring offenses in the league?

 

FWIW Bellicheck has the same coaching record as Rex Ryan without Brady...

He can still learn under Daboll, here he is the HC off the offense.

I think it’s a huge factor that is being neglected. 
 

Has to love josh as an asset - but if he isn’t ready to manage a full offensive staff solo (and also maybe additionally lose some of his trusted guys to daboll), rework scheme and play call solo, or revamp a playbook during the off-season solo…. It’s not hard to imagine he would follow his trusted superior for his next step instead of taking the better opportunity that lands 100% on his shoulders. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

i was pleasantly surprised with Daboll who really seemed to turn Allen around, when he was first hired I was uninspired but sometimes coaches just need to gain more experience and that what he went out and did and it paid off for him and Josh Allen. I have nothing bad to say about him, he came here and tried his best to get us that ring and it just fell short, I wish him nothing but the best in New Jersey. 

[Nihilarian]

5 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Do you even understand what a scheme change entails?

 

A top OC replacement is someone who can build a scheme around their players and doesn't try to fit a scheme on players who are not a fit for their scheme.

I do.

 

You just explained how a new OC would have input into his job in Buffalo using that "Buffalo Bills offensive playbook".

 

Like a Frank Reich type OC who builds an offense around his players.

 

What I didn't do was suggest the Bills hire a new OC who would change the entire playbook/scheme. Obviously, the Bills would not want a Greg Roman type OC either.

 

You know, not like what Rex Ryan did in Buffalo to that best D line in the league. Instead of asking them to keep doing what they had been doing. He changed the scheme to fit his ideas...of dropping the Bills pass rushers into coverage or asking them to eat up blockers so the crappy Bills LBers could attempt to make a play. 

 

Merely suggesting an offense that Josh Allen doesn't need to be the leading rusher, second leading rushing scorer.

Looked to me like a lot of teams had caught up to Buffalo's offense at the start of the season. 

 

[Nitro]

He got a HC job that ever coach wants.  I am thinking he brings Dorsey along.  Happy for Dabol.  Our whipping boy is gone. 

[Reed83HOF]

28 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

What I didn't do was suggest the Bills hire a new OC who would change the entire playbook/scheme. Obviously, the Bills would not want a Greg Roman type OC either.

 

Looked to me like a lot of teams had caught up to Buffalo's offense at the start of the season. 

 

You suggested it in 3 posts on the previous page

"To be honest I wouldn't mind changing schemes a bit."

 

"I think it would be good for him to learn other offenses."

 

"Don't know that the Bills should be as concerned with keeping the scheme over finding a top OC replacement."

 

 

[BobbyC81]

So, all 3 head coaches hired so far are first-timers.   Two were Bills” OCs.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

 

[mannc]

44 minutes ago, Nitro said:

He got a HC job that ever coach wants.  I am thinking he brings Dorsey along.  Happy for Dabol.  Our whipping boy is gone. 

I just can’t see Dorsey walking away from the Bills OC job…it’s almost a lock that he’ll be in line for a HC job in 2-3 years.  NYG is much more uncertain and a lot of people will assume Daboll is the de facto OC…

[transplantbillsfan]

Why would Dorsey walk away from a Unicorn QB in Josh Allen (who lobbied for him the day after the KC game) for a horrible QB in Daniel Jones or an unknown?

 

Unless there's bad blood with someone in the organization, it doesn't make any sense at all to make a lateral move from sure thing to big question mark.

[Turk71]

only 3 teams in the NFL used pre snap motion on a lesser % of plays than the Bills last season; the Giants, the Eagles, and the Cardinals. 

 I'd like to see more moving parts and more speed to really get defenses on their heels.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Turk71

[BuffaloBills1998]

So it looks like the Dolphins are gonna hire the revenge of the nerds coach I mean Mike McDaniel 

[Bimmer323i]

Great news… I’m so glad he’s gone….

[MJS]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Why would Dorsey walk away from a Unicorn QB in Josh Allen (who lobbied for him the day after the KC game) for a horrible QB in Daniel Jones or an unknown?

 

Unless there's bad blood with someone in the organization, it doesn't make any sense at all to make a lateral move from sure thing to big question mark.

Especially since Daboll is an offensive coach and everyone would think that any offensive success would stem from Daboll, not his coordinators.

 

The only reason Dorsey would go is if he just absolutely loves Daboll and wants to continue working under him no matter what.

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

You suggested it in 3 posts on the previous page

"To be honest I wouldn't mind changing schemes a bit."

 

"I think it would be good for him to learn other offenses."

 

"Don't know that the Bills should be as concerned with keeping the scheme over finding a top OC replacement."

 

 

I don't think I did, and I think I made fair points. 

 

Firstly, I doubt any new hire of OC for any NFL team comes in and changes the entire scheme. Simply doesn't happen.

 

They usually go with the teams playbook and install plays that they would like to see run. They may tweak it one way or another to run it the way they want. They also usually need to run any changes by the head coach first. 

 

The only guy that might make an overall change to a teams offensive scheme would be a new HC hire and usually only if that particular offense has been failing or he if feels he doesn't have the proper personnel to run it. 

 

My main point was I'd rather see a bright new mind come in and run an offense that he can make an offense work in all situations. Over some guy that has run the scheme previously... but hasn't been very good at it. 

 

Brian Daboll with his 8 years of experience as an NFL OC and he couldn't figure out how to defeat a cover 2 shell? Took him most of the season to figure out how to get the run game working too.

 

Even then, most of the latter seasons offensive explosion was mostly Josh Allen making that offense work. His unique running ability to get first downs opened up quite a bit of the Buffalo offense. 

 

 

[Bookie Man]

Does anyone think that these compensatory picks may be actually costing coaches opportunities? Do you think Miami would rather us not have the picks and go with someone else if it was a close call? 

[Buffalosouth]

As soon as they hired Joe to GM I figured Daboll would be the guy. Good luck boys, only 1 New York team.

[Riverboat Ritchie]

43 minutes ago, MJS said:

Especially since Daboll is an offensive coach and everyone would think that any offensive success would stem from Daboll, not his coordinators.

 

The only reason Dorsey would go is if he just absolutely loves Daboll and wants to continue working under him no matter what.

or if there is some bad blood with mcclappy. I forgot if it was Colts game or first Pats where McD presser seemed to indicate that there was some friction with him and Daboll. If Dorsey leaves hopefully locker room can stay tight. I imagine it does as core should still be here and losing like this hopefully is good motivation fodder for off season and next year. Go Bills. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

Who are you clowns going to blame now that your excuse is gone?  Oh that's right, the next OC.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

7 hours ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

And it's looking like we're stuck with Frazier... and no extra 3rds round picks...

 

all the jobs aren't filled yet.

 

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

7 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

How about 4th Down at 7-7 at Midfield? Or 4th and 1 first possession of the second half?  

 

Or should I go back to the Houston playoff game in 2019 and all the mistakes McD made, shutting down the offense the second half?

 

or was it JJ Watt abusing cody Ford the whole game and Josh running for his life ???

 

 

[Nitro]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

I just can’t see Dorsey walking away from the Bills OC job…it’s almost a lock that he’ll be in line for a HC job in 2-3 years.  NYG is much more uncertain and a lot of people will assume Daboll is the de facto OC…

There was some NFL sources stating Dorsey was going to go with Dabol.  I am putting it out there.  Who knows what the man will do.  

[BobbyC81]

2 hours ago, Turk71 said:

only 3 teams in the NFL used pre snap motion on a lesser % of plays than the Bills last season; the Giants, the Eagles, and the Cardinals. 

 I'd like to see more moving parts and more speed to really get defenses on their heels.

Conversely, if you watch a Niners game, they’ve got motion and misdirection going on all over the place.  Shanahan likes to confuse the he!! out of opposing defenses.  He even seems a little over the top.  They ran this one play where they had Jimmy G in the shotgun and their fullback Juszczyk went in motion from left to right.  He turned around coming back to the left, then went behind the center and took the snap.

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Keep thinking that the Giants haven’t  seen the playoffs in 7 years and it wasnt all Gettleman they just don’t have much talent 

 

It is 5 years but who's counting. Agree they don't have much talent. Gettleman was the man responsible for finding talent.

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

He is gonna find out that not being able to bring Josh with him is actually a big deal

 

 

Yeah, but I don't think this will be a surprise to him.  🙂

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, RunJoshRun said:

I agree.  He's coached in the NFL for many years and his first great offense just happened the last 2 years.  And those are the Josh 2 years of excellence.

 

 

Simply untrue.

 

He has indeed "coached in the NFL for many years," but it's just not true that his first great offense happened the last two years. 

 

The 2004 Pats offense was excellent, and same with 2006. Same with all four years of his second stint with the Pats in 2013 - 2016, terrific. You did say "NFL," so we can leave the terrific Alabama offense out, but they were in fact great.

 

In 2008, Daboll was on the Jets the year Favre played with them and that offense was very good indeed.

 

That's seven really good offenses he's served with in the NFL.

 

Now, you might say, "yeah, but he wasn't OC on those." Fair enough, but it was you who set out the original boundaries here, not me. If you wanted to gerrymander out the rest of his career and only look at his years as OC, you shouldn't have said, "He's coached in the NFL for many years and his first great offense ..." 

 

He'd only been an OC for four years in the NFL before he joined the Bills.

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

I don't think I did, and I think I made fair points. 

 

Firstly, I doubt any new hire of OC for any NFL team comes in and changes the entire scheme. Simply doesn't happen.

 

 

 

I mean it absolutely does. It is what normally happens. There are basically four core offenses in the NFL. 

 

The Erhadt-Perkins that the Bills run which is the most flexible and Quarterback centric offense.

 

The West Coast spread that the Chiefs run which has the most in common with the E-P but the terminology is totally different and requires more set timing routes and reads.

 

The West Coast stretch zone that the likes of San Francisco and the Rams run which fundamentally is a run first scheme with a heavy play action passing game built off of it. 

 

The Air Coryell which has fallen a bit out of use because the NFL has gone increasingly to a quick passing offense. 

 

They each have different terminology for the Quarterback, the offensive line and the receivers. Some of the concepts are consistent and you will see some of the same plays in offenses of different types as the league becomes less rigid. But learning each of those 4 core schemes takes time. Personally I would be sticking with a core E-P guy and changing as little of the core offense as possible. 

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, ßookie_tech said:

Does anyone think that these compensatory picks may be actually costing coaches opportunities? Do you think Miami would rather us not have the picks and go with someone else if it was a close call? 

 

 

No. I can't imagine any team genuinely believing one guy would be the best head coaching candidate they've seen, and then turn him down because hiring him would mean a rival would get two 3rd round comp picks.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

I don't think I did, and I think I made fair points. 

 

Firstly, I doubt any new hire of OC for any NFL team comes in and changes the entire scheme. Simply doesn't happen.

 

They usually go with the teams playbook and install plays that they would like to see run. They may tweak it one way or another to run it the way they want. They also usually need to run any changes by the head coach first. 

 

The only guy that might make an overall change to a teams offensive scheme would be a new HC hire and usually only if that particular offense has been failing or he if feels he doesn't have the proper personnel to run it. 

 

My main point was I'd rather see a bright new mind come in and run an offense that he can make an offense work in all situations. Over some guy that has run the scheme previously... but hasn't been very good at it. 

 

Brian Daboll with his 8 years of experience as an NFL OC and he couldn't figure out how to defeat a cover 2 shell? Took him most of the season to figure out how to get the run game working too.

 

Even then, most of the latter seasons offensive explosion was mostly Josh Allen making that offense work. His unique running ability to get first downs opened up quite a bit of the Buffalo offense. 

 

 

 

 

Oh, please, this is nonsense.

 

It wasn't as simple as a cover 2 shell. That's why it gave Andy Reid and the Chiefs the same massive problems it gave the Bills, and for about the same length of time.

 

Arguing that the later season explosion was only on Allen is pure confirmation bias. If it were only Allen, how come he didn't do the same earlier in the season? He was the QB then too and having problems then too.

 

You want to believe that it was Allen, not Daboll, so even though it's absent any evidence, you just believe it.

[Nextmanup]

I just found out Daboll is gone, came here, and am rifling through pages and pages of off-topic fighting...

 

🙄

[JMF2006]

Good Luck and all the best Coach Dabol.

 

I would love to be playing the G Men in the SB a few years from now....trying to capture the Bills 4th in a row