macnmotion Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) Setting aside the fact that the play action worked last week because of the great play calling mix and successful run game, I saw two things when Allen ran play action that really set it apart. Watch the TD play to Tommy Doyle and you'll see both of these: 1) Unlike many QBs running the play action, Allen did not hold the ball out to the RBs with both hands. He held it out with his left hand only, keeping his right hand free. When he began to curl around to his right after faking the handoff the ball was completely blocked by his body, and his empty throwing hand sent a signal to the D that the ball had been handed off. 2) Allen took the ball very deep (a 9 yard drop at the apex of his curl-around) and very fast into the backfield, leaving him a ton of time before any Defensive spies would have a chance to reach and pressure him. This left all options open to him -- passing if his target was open, looking for a secondary target, running himself or throwing the ball away. On the Doyle TD, the nearest defenders were 6 yards away from him when he threw the ball. If the Bills can sell the run this weekend, I believe Allen's technique on the play action will open up some big plays for the Bills. Thoughts? Edited January 20, 2022 by macnmotion 12 2 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 I am a big fan of play action. 1 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemma Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 He is slick. He has found yet one more thing (ball fakes) to improve and already is off the charts good. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 14 minutes ago, chris heff said: I am a big fan of play action. Amen. I’m so thankful that we’ve been able to discover a run game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) KC is the nfl worst against play action passes from what I've seen/heard. Edited January 20, 2022 by The Wiz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Yeah, I don't think I ever noticed this technique before and was wondering if it was new for him? I never thought he did a good job of faking it before, but now the way he hides it can be very deceptive. Glad you brought this up. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, NewEra said: Amen. I’m so thankful that we’ve been able to discover a run game. Yep, and it only works if you can actually run the ball. I’m not sure if I’m more excited about Josh’s last Perfect Game or our recent ability to run the ball. Without question, they are closely related! Peak at the right time, baby! 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 3 hours ago, TPS said: Yeah, I don't think I ever noticed this technique before and was wondering if it was new for him? I never thought he did a good job of faking it before, but now the way he hides it can be very deceptive. Glad you brought this up. I’ve never seen Josh sell fakes like he did last week, specifically the one noted in OP’s point 1. That and smoothing out his meshpoint motion was something I was hoping he would work on over the off-season with Palmer. For the whole of the regular season, it didn’t look any better. I guess he saved it for the playoffs and it was masterful. Let’s hope it can be included in his bag o’ tricks with more frequency. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 4 hours ago, macnmotion said: Setting aside the fact that the play action worked last week because of the great play calling mix and successful run game, I saw two things when Allen ran play action that really set it apart. Watch the TD play to Tommy Doyle and you'll see both of these: 1) Unlike many QBs running the play action, Allen did not hold the ball out to the RBs with both hands. He held it out with his left hand only, keeping his right hand free. When he began to curl around to his right after faking the handoff the ball was completely blocked by his body, and his empty throwing hand sent a signal to the D that the ball had been handed off. 2) Allen took the ball very deep (a 9 yard drop at the apex of his curl-around) and very fast into the backfield, leaving him a ton of time before any Defensive spies would have a chance to reach and pressure him. This left all options open to him -- passing if his target was open, looking for a secondary target, running himself or throwing the ball away. On the Doyle TD, the nearest defenders were 6 yards away from him when he threw the ball. If the Bills can sell the run this weekend, I believe Allen's technique on the play action will open up some big plays for the Bills. Thoughts? Thanks for bringing this up. I agree. Now, that obvious two-handed hand-off is also in his repertoire. I don't know why teams do it that way, but Allen does it. Anyway, you're right that on the Doyle TD he didn't do it that way. I've notice him bury the ball in his belly on other handoffs. It's very deceptive when he has his back turned to the line of scrimmage. It's all coaching and how he responds to it. He's taught to do it, and he does it very effectively. I didn't think about the deep drop, but you're right about that, too. It's an effective complement to the fake - no d lineman is going to follow him all the way back there without seeing the ball. Allen's little skills keep growing. One thing I've noticed Rodgers and someone else do is after the fake, as they are dropping back with their backs to the line of scrimmage, they look over their should and follow the running back with their eyes, making it look like they're interested in how the play will turn out. That's what Allen will add next. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Allen also does sleight of hand magic tricks as a hobby. He has probably practiced the play action fake to death. It's one of those tiny details that turn great athletes into all time great athletes. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YattaOkasan Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Allen is a magician at hiding the ball. play action does not need good running to be successful. See how well we did last year in play action and how much we did it as proof. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybrew1 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 I think Brian Daboll and Josh Allen have the chefs DC grasping for anything but coming up with nothing but air... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 29 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Allen also does sleight of hand magic tricks as a hobby. He has probably practiced the play action fake to death. It's one of those tiny details that turn great athletes into all time great athletes. Agreed. I'd love to see a PManning-esque pump fake added to the arsenal. A superior pump fake is a killer. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Great observations OP; I’d also just like to add that I’ve always been impressed with the sheer length of time Allen is able to keep the fake in place at the RB’s bread basket level, while Allen is reading his keys/selling the fake—it forces the D to commit one way or the other, and gives Allen another split second lead time in letting the pass routes develop. It’s another small but vital detail imho. As a former wannabe QB in an earlier life, I can attest firsthand on the coaching points of emphasis involved with play action, and actually giving it sufficient time in the RB’s (almost) grasp is easier said than done, but Allen has excelled at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 7 hours ago, macnmotion said: Setting aside the fact that the play action worked last week because of the great play calling mix and successful run game, I saw two things when Allen ran play action that really set it apart. Watch the TD play to Tommy Doyle and you'll see both of these: 1) Unlike many QBs running the play action, Allen did not hold the ball out to the RBs with both hands. He held it out with his left hand only, keeping his right hand free. When he began to curl around to his right after faking the handoff the ball was completely blocked by his body, and his empty throwing hand sent a signal to the D that the ball had been handed off. 2) Allen took the ball very deep (a 9 yard drop at the apex of his curl-around) and very fast into the backfield, leaving him a ton of time before any Defensive spies would have a chance to reach and pressure him. This left all options open to him -- passing if his target was open, looking for a secondary target, running himself or throwing the ball away. On the Doyle TD, the nearest defenders were 6 yards away from him when he threw the ball. If the Bills can sell the run this weekend, I believe Allen's technique on the play action will open up some big plays for the Bills. Thoughts? Agree and it's why I think you're going to see Spags Blitz a ton and go cover zero daring us to beat them 1 on 1. They're going to attack they aren't going to sit back and let Allen pick them apart. They're going to want him to get rid of the ball quick. Couple things to back them off... We have to make them pay - an early deep shot well help. Can still be effective running - you find one crease you can be gone. Max protect. Give me our now healthy WRs one one with their DBs. A screen game I bet we've been saving for the Spags D. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 It’s the magician in him. Literally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macnmotion Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said: Great observations OP; I’d also just like to add that I’ve always been impressed with the sheer length of time Allen is able to keep the fake in place at the RB’s bread basket level, while Allen is reading his keys/selling the fake—it forces the D to commit one way or the other, and gives Allen another split second lead time in letting the pass routes develop. It’s another small but vital detail imho. As a former wannabe QB in an earlier life, I can attest firsthand on the coaching points of emphasis involved with play action, and actually giving it sufficient time in the RB’s (almost) grasp is easier said than done, but Allen has excelled at it. and not only did he give it sufficiant time in one (almost) RB's grasp, but on the Tommy Doyle touchdown play he sold it with both backs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) They need to consistently generate about 80 yards a game in non-Josh runs to make this a massive weapon. Glad they are doing finally able to deliver. I have always loved Josh under center. So much better for the running backs and harder for the defense to guess what is happening. Edited January 20, 2022 by John Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 People laugh about measuring Quarterbacks' hands. But it is a thing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 I’m looking forward to more “burnt toast” Sorensen and Mathieu’s exasperated hands in the air Sunday night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieEm Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 4 hours ago, K-9 said: It’s the magician in him. Literally. Hey it be fun to have the Jonathan Dorenbos show up for a pre-season game to lead the charge. Then he and Josh could setup some little magic show for the kids at Oshei. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 12 hours ago, macnmotion said: Setting aside the fact that the play action worked last week because of the great play calling mix and successful run game, I saw two things when Allen ran play action that really set it apart. Watch the TD play to Tommy Doyle and you'll see both of these: 1) Unlike many QBs running the play action, Allen did not hold the ball out to the RBs with both hands. He held it out with his left hand only, keeping his right hand free. When he began to curl around to his right after faking the handoff the ball was completely blocked by his body, and his empty throwing hand sent a signal to the D that the ball had been handed off. 2) Allen took the ball very deep (a 9 yard drop at the apex of his curl-around) and very fast into the backfield, leaving him a ton of time before any Defensive spies would have a chance to reach and pressure him. This left all options open to him -- passing if his target was open, looking for a secondary target, running himself or throwing the ball away. On the Doyle TD, the nearest defenders were 6 yards away from him when he threw the ball. If the Bills can sell the run this weekend, I believe Allen's technique on the play action will open up some big plays for the Bills. Thoughts? Third and maybe most important of all. #3 - Josh performs similar action - even if he hands the ball off. The first two are important and his fake is really good, but the key is that he runs play action moves even when he hands it off on those types of plays. It is critical because some QBs only carry out that motion when they have the ball and it signals to key defenders - Safeties and CBs and cover LBs exactly what is coming one step earlier. Josh carries through the action sell bootleg even when handing off and it adds that extra piece to be even more successful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Third and maybe most important of all. #3 - Josh performs similar action - even if he hands the ball off. The first two are important and his fake is really good, but the key is that he runs play action moves even when he hands it off on those types of plays. It is critical because some QBs only carry out that motion when they have the ball and it signals to key defenders - Safeties and CBs and cover LBs exactly what is coming one step earlier. Josh carries through the action sell bootleg even when handing off and it adds that extra piece to be even more successful. His play action sell is an area where he has really improved his game. I think even as he started to ascend in 2019 he was still a bit easily readable on the play action. It is really hard to pick now and that is credit to him. That is the kind of thing people don't think about when they talk about Quarterbacks developing. It can't be measured by a statistic or a number..... but Josh's sell of the play action is a big area in which he has developed. I think he has developed this year on his selling of screens too, and while the Bills are still not a league leading screen team by any means, they are better than they were. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macnmotion Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 17 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Third and maybe most important of all. #3 - Josh performs similar action - even if he hands the ball off. The first two are important and his fake is really good, but the key is that he runs play action moves even when he hands it off on those types of plays. It is critical because some QBs only carry out that motion when they have the ball and it signals to key defenders - Safeties and CBs and cover LBs exactly what is coming one step earlier. Josh carries through the action sell bootleg even when handing off and it adds that extra piece to be even more successful. Good point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 All of this is connected to the improvement in the O Line. They go hand in hand. I’ve got to believe Josh feels more comfortable carrying out these slight of hand moves when he knows he’s not about to run for his life a split second later from a wave of oncoming D Linemen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 hours ago, eball said: I’m looking forward to more “burnt toast” Sorensen and Mathieu’s exasperated hands in the air Sunday night. Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see Sorensen much. He been replaced by Juan Thornhill, and Thornhill doesn't suck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: His play action sell is an area where he has really improved his game. I think even as he started to ascend in 2019 he was still a bit easily readable on the play action. It is really hard to pick now and that is credit to him. That is the kind of thing people don't think about when they talk about Quarterbacks developing. It can't be measured by a statistic or a number..... but Josh's sell of the play action is a big area in which he has developed. I think he has developed this year on his selling of screens too, and while the Bills are still not a league leading screen team by any means, they are better than they were. I agree - he had some moments in the past and his best fakes have always been like the Doyle TD - get the ball on you hip, back to defense and roll out. His ball handling has gotten so much better that even wearing white sleeves - he faked out the defense several times - to the point on one play Judon only finally reacted when Spencer Brown looked back to figure out where Josh was headed to set up his next block. Judon was trying to run through Brown to get to the RB as Josh rolled past him. I believe that was on the pass to Knox. Josh had a 30 yard run looking at him and Knox running behind JC Jackson. The pass ended up being a closer play only because Jackson looked back just before Josh threw it. You make the pass because you can see JC was not looking back, but just as he was setting up - JC glanced back and came within a couple of inches of knocking the ball down, but what a play call late, up big, play action and hit a deep route - guts all around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see Sorensen much. He been replaced by Juan Thornhill, and Thornhill doesn't suck. Except the last 2 times they have played us - they are playing Nickle with 3 safeties much of the time. They are using Matthieu as a spy/hybrid LB to increase coverage and allow more defensive variations. The teams that beat KC force them into more base packages and then exploit the LBs and the Safeties from base. I think Knox and Gilliam could be huge for that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 5 hours ago, K-9 said: It’s the magician in him. Literally. 🤔..... 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 22 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Except the last 2 times they have played us - they are playing Nickle with 3 safeties much of the time. They are using Matthieu as a spy/hybrid LB to increase coverage and allow more defensive variations. The teams that beat KC force them into more base packages and then exploit the LBs and the Safeties from base. I think Knox and Gilliam could be huge for that. Yea their linebackers are not great in coverage. The problem is only Mathieu is of their safeties really. The Bills will use some big personnel and pass out of those looks on Sunday, I am certain. Just as they did week 5. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: Yea their linebackers are not great in coverage. The problem is only Mathieu is of their safeties really. The Bills will use some big personnel and pass out of those looks on Sunday, I am certain. Just as they did week 5. Would this include Tommy Doyle as the 3rd tackle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 3 hours ago, eball said: I’m looking forward to more “burnt toast” Sorensen and Mathieu’s exasperated hands in the air Sunday night. Didn’t Sorensen lose his job? He is awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Would this include Tommy Doyle as the 3rd tackle? It could do. Putting that big man touchdown on film last week definitely gives KC something else to try and take away in the redzone. Just now, chris heff said: Didn’t Sorensen lose his job? He is awful. He did but he is still playing about half the snaps on defense. I think only a couple of games below 45% since he "lost" the starting gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 13 hours ago, NewEra said: Amen. I’m so thankful that we’ve been able to discover a run game. I said all along once this team finds a legit run game it's off to the races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Just now, GunnerBill said: It could do. Putting that big man touchdown on film last week definitely gives KC something else to try and take away in the redzone. I was thinking of doing this not at just the goal line. I really like having McKenzie in the backfield for the passing game. That seems like a matchup nightmare, especially on the blitz. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 During the regular season, among QBs with a min of 200 attempts, Allen was: - 1st in total play action attempts (178) - 1st in total play action yards (1643) - 3rd in highest % play action attempts to total attempts (28%) - 2nd in highest % play action yards to total yards (37%) - His rating on play action passing was 114.5 - 42% of his passing TDs came off play action In the Wild Card playoff game: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 12 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: I was thinking of doing this not at just the goal line. I really like having McKenzie in the backfield for the passing game. That seems like a matchup nightmare, especially on the blitz. Yea agree on McKenzie. They did a bit of that early in the year then got away from it. I like him there and getting him back on the field has helped our offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: All of this is connected to the improvement in the O Line. They go hand in hand. I’ve got to believe Josh feels more comfortable carrying out these slight of hand moves when he knows he’s not about to run for his life a split second later from a wave of oncoming D Linemen. True, and there's more. The whole point of the play action is to give the oline an advantage in the pass pro. Successful play action stops the initial burst that can cause the pocket to collapse quickly, and it allows the blocker to establish position. So, the line helps the QB and the QB helps the line. Edited January 20, 2022 by Shaw66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 55 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: During the regular season, among QBs with a min of 200 attempts, Allen was: - 1st in total play action attempts (178) - 1st in total play action yards (1643) - 3rd in highest % play action attempts to total attempts (28%) - 2nd in highest % play action yards to total yards (37%) - His rating on play action passing was 114.5 - 42% of his passing TDs came off play action In the Wild Card playoff game: I’ve read an article that says statistically this is when Josh is at his best 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letsgoteam Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Yea agree on McKenzie. They did a bit of that early in the year then got away from it. I like him there and getting him back on the field has helped our offense. Also like how they are using him as the change of pace RB. Makes it just one more thing the D has to account for when he is on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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