Taylor Heinicke TD Ruled No TD! Why?

[Never NEVER Give-up]

Is it me?  Have the rules changed?

Earlier today, Heinicke ran in for a TD, diving at about the 2 yard line; the ball was at the half-yard line when his knee was down, but no one touched him (no down by contact), and he slid into the end zone - - TD!!  Nope!

I thought when a QB slides or any player for that matter, they are giving themselves up and ruled down where they started their slide - OK - fair rule.

However when a QB or player dives, it's where the ball is when the runner is down (if they are going down due to contact).  If there is no contact, I thought they were down once they were touched or if they enter the end zone - TD!

What's the rule?  Was there a rule change? (and it seems not fair)

BTW on the next play, the QB sneak when he fumbles, regains the ball and extends it over the goal line, THAT also should have been a TD, but they said no again.  I don't think he was ever "down", I think he was on top of bodies.  Because he lost the ball, it cannot be said his forward progress stopped.  He regained possession and extended it into the end zone.  Please let me know your thoughts on this one too.

[Warcodered]

They are stricter on the QBs giving themselves up it's cost us some yards here and there.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, Never NEVER Give-up said:

Is it me?  Have the rules changed?

Earlier today, Heinicke ran in for a TD, diving at about the 2 yard line; the ball was at the half-yard line when his knee was down, but no one touched him (no down by contact), and he slid into the end zone - - TD!!  Nope!

I thought when a QB slides or any player for that matter, they are giving themselves up and ruled down where they started their slide - OK - fair rule.

However when a QB or player dives, it's where the ball is when the runner is down (if they are going down due to contact).  If there is no contact, I thought they were down once they were touched or if they enter the end zone - TD!

What's the rule?  Was there a rule change? (and it seems not fair)

BTW on the next play, the QB sneak when he fumbles, regains the ball and extends it over the goal line, THAT also should have been a TD, but they said no again.  I don't think he was ever "down", I think he was on top of bodies.  Because he lost the ball, it cannot be said his forward progress stopped.  He regained possession and extended it into the end zone.  Please let me know your thoughts on this one too.

 

I think the rule change you’re looking for is explained here:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/08/04/nfl-rules-will-now-treat-head-first-dives-like-feet-first-slides/

[pennstate10]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the rule change you’re looking for is explained here:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/08/04/nfl-rules-will-now-treat-head-first-dives-like-feet-first-slides/

Its a stupid rule.

Guaranteed to be modified in the offseason.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

This was a bad interpretation of the new rule. I think they are trying to basically say a head first slide is the same as a feet first slide. 
 

He is clearly not sliding— he is diving for the endzone. To the OP’s point, if this is called a “slide”/giving yourself up, then Lamar Jackson diving forward into the endzone for a somersault should not be a TD. 

 

[Saint Doug]

Anyone have the video?

[Mikie2times]

I don't know if you watched to full game, but the officiating was pretty bad. At one point they ruled Green Bay recovered a fumble when it was clear it was recovered by Washington. They got it right, but In my entire history of watching football I don't remember a time a fumble recovery was prematurely called. They always let them play and who has the ball in the end gets the ball. Green Bay never came close to controlling the ball and they ruled it that way before the play was over. Weird stuff.   

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

6 minutes ago, Saint Doug said:

Anyone have the video?

 

 

[zow2]

Heinicke’s knee touched just before ball crossed the goaline. That killed the play. He should’ve just stayed in on his feet and ran to the pylon, easy TD….OR he could’ve dove in headfirst before touching his knee. 

He’s been criticized for absorbing too much contact and was just trying to play it safe and not get hit. I guarantee he will never do that again.

[Never NEVER Give-up]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the rule change you’re looking for is explained here:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/08/04/nfl-rules-will-now-treat-head-first-dives-like-feet-first-slides/

Thank you!

That's insane!!  How do they decipher between dives, QB sneaks, lunging for an extra yard, leaps over the pile, etc.?  They're outsmarting themselves!

[1ManRaid]

Weird, not many objected to the rule when it saved a Josh Allen fumble for a touchback when he dove for the goal line last year (I think)...

[djp14150]

54 minutes ago, Never NEVER Give-up said:

Is it me?  Have the rules changed?

Earlier today, Heinicke ran in for a TD, diving at about the 2 yard line; the ball was at the half-yard line when his knee was down, but no one touched him (no down by contact), and he slid into the end zone - - TD!!  Nope!

I thought when a QB slides or any player for that matter, they are giving themselves up and ruled down where they started their slide - OK - fair rule.

However when a QB or player dives, it's where the ball is when the runner is down (if they are going down due to contact).  If there is no contact, I thought they were down once they were touched or if they enter the end zone - TD!

What's the rule?  Was there a rule change? (and it seems not fair)

BTW on the next play, the QB sneak when he fumbles, regains the ball and extends it over the goal line, THAT also should have been a TD, but they said no again.  I don't think he was ever "down", I think he was on top of bodies.  Because he lost the ball, it cannot be said his forward progress stopped.  He regained possession and extended it into the end zone.  Please let me know your thoughts on this one too.

 

rule change

 

dives are giving themselves up because some QBs in a foot slide didn’t want knee injuries.

 

Josh lost a TDearlier this season because of this rule.

 

personally I don’t like it. Especially when QB running out of the pocket is a RB. Dives forward for goalie or first down markers shouldn’t be viewed as giving themselves up.

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, Never NEVER Give-up said:

Thank you!

That's insane!!  How do they decipher between dives, QB sneaks, lunging for an extra yard, leaps over the pile, etc.?  They're outsmarting themselves!

It's not insane, it's grey area by design.

 

The NFL makes it's home in the grey area.

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, pennstate10 said:

Its a stupid rule.

Guaranteed to be modified in the offseason.

 

I doubt it will be changed.  It was requested because some QBs - especially wearing knee braces - have been hurt sliding because the brace catches.  Therefore they preferred to dive forward, but without this protection - they can get drilled.

 

The NFL then came out and created a rule to help protect QBs and basically any dive or slide is considered “giving themselves up” and they are down and can not be drilled by a defender.

 

QBs have to know the rule and be smart.  In this case he wasn’t and the outcome was correctly called. 
 

It is a good rule if QBs are your livelihood and protecting them makes sense.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[Big Turk]

Yes the rules have changed. Diving forward is the same as sliding, in that it's considered giving yourself up as a QB. The ball comes back to where the dive initiated from.

 

Stupid rule but the correct call based on it.

[Ya Digg?]

So then not to bring up old stuff (but to completely bring up old stuff) didn’t heinicke do the same thing when he scored against the Bills? I get they are trying to protect the QB, but shouldn’t the action happening around the QB come into effect? The closest defender wasn’t that close 
 

 

edit: to be clear, I actually think in both instances they are touchdowns, just pointing out he made the same play against the Bills. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Ya Digg?

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the rule change you’re looking for is explained here:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/08/04/nfl-rules-will-now-treat-head-first-dives-like-feet-first-slides/

 

17 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I doubt it will be changed.  It was requested because some QBs - especially wearing knee braces - have been hurt sliding because the brace catches.  Therefore they preferred to dive forward, but without this protection - they can get drilled.

 

The NFL then came out and created a rule to help protect QBs and basically any dive or slide is considered “giving themselves up” and they are down and can not be drilled by a defender.

 

QBs have to know the rule and be smart.  In this case he wasn’t and the outcome was correctly called. 
 

It is a good rule if QBs are your livelihood and protecting them makes sense.

 

 

We'll see what happens.

 

If a QB is diving for the end zone, its pretty clear he's not "giving himself up".

 

And the refs shouldnt be put in the position of being mind readers.

 

I understand some QBs may not be skilled sliders.  Maybe they should practice sliding.

 

I stand by what i said.

 

Rule will be changed.  Headfirst = not giving yourself up.  Sliding = giving yourself up.

[Rochesterfan]

2 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

 

We'll see what happens.

 

If a QB is diving for the end zone, its pretty clear he's not "giving himself up".

 

And the refs shouldnt be put in the position of being mind readers.

 

I understand some QBs may not be skilled sliders.  Maybe they should practice sliding.

 

I stand by what i said.

 

Rule will be changed.  Headfirst = not giving yourself up.  Sliding = giving yourself up.

 

Ok - we will see.  Good Luck with that since it was a requested change - I would not hold my breath as an injury to a QB is worse than an additional 0.5 yard.

 

QB safety first.

[Big C]

He didn’t fully extended the ball; instead he kinda tucked it back in as he was going down. So I think the interpretation of the rule was fair here. He didn’t need to get conservative; it was an easy TD. I mean it was still an easy TD so they didn’t need to be a stickler but that is the rule.

[DrPJax]

2 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

Its a stupid rule.

Guaranteed to be modified in the offseason.

Yep, that article was from 2018, and I can’t believe that’s being called consistently. For example when Josh dove for the possible first down against the titans, that would mean the ball would have been spotted where he started the dive and not where it was spotted where he landed.   What if he had attempted to dive over the pile on 4 th , by that rule the ball would be spotted behind the line!  Another example of the nfl trying to legislate too much and By doing so it ends up creating subjectivity into the calls more and more.with resulting inconsistency.   Also If a player fumbles forward like you described I am pretty sure if that player recovers they are the only one who can still advance the ball and so a td would be possible.  Sounds like more terrible refs influencing outcomes and it’s getting intolerable. No also dove for a first down head first tonight on 2 nd and 15 and he dove for the last 2 yards on a 17 yd run, so the rule of it still exists is not being uniformly enforced.  I don’t see how it could as it goes against all of prior tradition in football fighting and diving for tds or first downs.  If this officiating keeps being this bad sooner or later the NFL will lose a big class action suit by a fan base whose team lost and they will have a ton of film to support prior things not being called in a similar fashion.  Imagine a call like that in a super bowl deciding the outcome!   That’s a Billsy thing to happen!  😀

[Scott7975]

Even QBs are not considered down/given themselves up until the first body part touches the ground.  So if a QB dives toward an end zone, first down, whatever, they don't count him as down until the first body part touches the ground.  I think some of you aren't realizing that part.

 

Quote

(1) “If a runner (including a quarterback) gives himself up, then he is down where the first body part touches the ground. The runner should not benefit from additional yardage after the first body part touches. Defenders do not have to go down to initiate contact to stop a runner from gaining more yards after he contacts the ground.”

(2) “Quarterbacks and all runners should be reminded that they must give themselves up early, and that if a defender has committed to a tackle, contact may occur. However, that contact cannot be late or to the head or neck area of the player who gave himself up.”

(3) “A quarterback does not have to slide feet first to be considered to be giving himself up. Regardless whether the slide is feet first or head first, as long as he gives himself up, he should receive the protections afforded to him as a player in a defenceless posture.”

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Scott7975

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, Ya Digg? said:

So then not to bring up old stuff (but to completely bring up old stuff) didn’t heinicke do the same thing when he scored against the Bills? I get they are trying to protect the QB, but shouldn’t the action happening around the QB come into effect? The closest defender wasn’t that close 
 

 

edit: to be clear, I actually think in both instances they are touchdowns, just pointing out he made the same play against the Bills. 

Exactly— the refs have to use some common sense there. He is going to score. He is not giving himself up in the same way a QB who slides is trying to avoid contact.

 

one thing they can always do is to basically carve out an exception to this rule for the endzone. That’s where this rule can really cause problems. 
 

Edit: what if the GB defender dove

to try to Hit Him/stop him from crossing the goal line?  I guarantee that is not called a penalty.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Miyagi-Do Karate

[Scott7975]

5 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Exactly— the refs have to use some common sense there. He is going to score. He is not giving himself up in the same way a QB who slides is trying to avoid contact.

 

one thing they can always do is to basically carve out an exception to this rule for the endzone. That’s where this rule can really cause problems. 
 

Edit: what if the GB defender dove

to try to Hit Him/stop him from crossing the goal line?  I guarantee that is not called a penalty.

 

 

Disagree.  The last thing the league needs is more grey area rules left up to the refs interpretation.  If a QB dives forward he is down at the point his first body part touches the ground.  That is fair enough IMO.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Disagree.  The last thing the league needs is more grey area rules left up to the refs interpretation.  If a QB dives forward he is down at the point his first body part touches the ground.  That is fair enough IMO.

But i don’t think that is the rule. In the first clause of the rule you quote above, the rule only applies “if the runner gives himself up.”  So there has to be a determination first whether the runner is giving himself up or not—

diving for the end zone seems to be the opposite of giving yourself up.  He is trying to score. 

[Scott7975]

19 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

But i don’t think that is the rule. In the first clause of the rule you quote above, the rule only applies “if the runner gives himself up.”  So there has to be a determination first whether the runner is giving himself up or not—

diving for the end zone seems to be the opposite of giving yourself up.  He is trying to score. 

 

A QB diving forward is giving himself up.  That literally is the rule.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Scott7975

[Tuco]

2 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

So then not to bring up old stuff (but to completely bring up old stuff) didn’t heinicke do the same thing when he scored against the Bills? I get they are trying to protect the QB, but shouldn’t the action happening around the QB come into effect? The closest defender wasn’t that close 
 

 

edit: to be clear, I actually think in both instances they are touchdowns, just pointing out he made the same play against the Bills. 

No, they are not the same thing. The play isn't dead when the QB starts to dive. It's dead when he dives (or slides) and any part of him that would make him down by contact touches the ground.

 

If the QB were to start a feet first slide at the 1 yard line then slide into the endzone, they don't give him the TD. They spot the ball when he was "down", as in, when his knee or his elbow or his butt touched the ground. Any yardage gained after that is negated. They changed the rule in 2018 to include head first slides. If a QB dives forward and gets the ball into the endzone before any part of him touches the ground, he gets the touchdown. But if he dives head first (or feet first), hits the ground when the ball is at the 1 yard line and then slides over the goal line, the ball goes back to where he was "down" by beginning his slide.

 

In the Bills game Heinicke never touched the ground until after the ball crossed the goal line. In today's game he was clearly "down" when his knee touched the ground, and the ball was clearly still outside the endzone at that point, and that's where it was spotted.

 

That's the difference. And it's something several people on here don't seem to get. The play isn't over at the start of the dive. The play is over when the diving QB hits the ground - negating any sliding yardage that happens after that.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Tuco

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Heinecki should know better. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This was a bad interpretation of the new rule. I think they are trying to basically say a head first slide is the same as a feet first slide. 
 

He is clearly not sliding— he is diving for the endzone. To the OP’s point, if this is called a “slide”/giving yourself up, then Lamar Jackson diving forward into the endzone for a somersault should not be a TD. 

 

 

So thanks for posting the video. 

 

The one thing I'll say is perspective - from this still I pulled, it appears that he is dropping his knee parallel to the goal line vs. diving in

Since the latter would put him in the path of the oncoming Packer and he chooses to drop a knee and go more parallel, that may be why the perspective of the ref on the goal line was that he "gave himself up"

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

 

We'll see what happens.

 

If a QB is diving for the end zone, its pretty clear he's not "giving himself up".

 

And the refs shouldnt be put in the position of being mind readers.

 

I understand some QBs may not be skilled sliders.  Maybe they should practice sliding.

 

I stand by what i said.

 

Rule will be changed.  Headfirst = not giving yourself up.  Sliding = giving yourself up.

Don't have to be a mind reader. He dove and his knee hit before the ball crossed. Play over. If he dove and the ball crossed before his knee hit its a TD. 

2 hours ago, Tuco said:

No, they are not the same thing. The play isn't dead when the QB starts to dive. It's dead when he dives (or slides) and any part of him that would make him down by contact touches the ground.

 

If the QB were to start a feet first slide at the 1 yard line then slide into the endzone, they don't give him the TD. They spot the ball when he was "down", as in, when his knee or his elbow or his butt touched the ground. Any yardage gained after that is negated. They changed the rule in 2018 to include head first slides. If a QB dives forward and gets the ball into the endzone before any part of him touches the ground, he gets the touchdown. But if he dives head first (or feet first), hits the ground when the ball is at the 1 yard line and then slides over the goal line, the ball goes back to where he was "down" by beginning his slide.

 

In the Bills game Heinicke never touched the ground until after the ball crossed the goal line. In today's game he was clearly "down" when his knee touched the ground, and the ball was clearly still outside the endzone at that point, and that's where it was spotted.

 

That's the difference. And it's something several people on here don't seem to get. The play isn't over at the start of the dive. The play is over when the diving QB hits the ground - negating any sliding yardage that happens after that.

Nice post

[CSBill]

If I were a WFT fan, I would be upset. Actually, more on the play after this. Regardless, this is the right call, he just went down too soon.

 

This entire sequence of events shows why you score when you can (at all costs, Tyler, even the cost of getting hit) and worry about the bruises later. Never "ASS..U..ME" we'll get it on the next play. I understand why, but it was just a bonehead play on his part.

[mikemac2001]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So thanks for posting the video. 

 

The one thing I'll say is perspective - from this still I pulled, it appears that he is dropping his knee parallel to the goal line vs. diving in

Since the latter would put him in the path of the oncoming Packer and he chooses to drop a knee and go more parallel, that may be why the perspective of the ref on the goal line was that he "gave himself up"

I didn’t see it and idc

 

but a qb is not giving himself up at the 1 inch line he’s trying to score 

 

pretty clear 

[r00tabaga]

They changed the rule and personally I think it's dumb. If a quarterback wants to slide safely, they must learn the baseball slide. Going head first is a risk but will get you more yards.

It was called correctly.

[Rochesterfan]

8 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

 

We'll see what happens.

 

If a QB is diving for the end zone, its pretty clear he's not "giving himself up".

 

And the refs shouldnt be put in the position of being mind readers.

 

I understand some QBs may not be skilled sliders.  Maybe they should practice sliding.

 

I stand by what i said.

 

Rule will be changed.  Headfirst = not giving yourself up.  Sliding = giving yourself up.

 

If it was clear he was diving for the end zone - why did his knee hit down short?  He easily could have dove forward across the line and scored - or even probably made it standing up, but he didn’t.  He made a weak dive sideways and got his knee on the ground before crossing the goal line and he did that to AVOID THE HIT.

 

In other words - he gave himself up and should be considered down where he first makes contact with the ground - which is exactly how they called it and marked it.  
 

It is not a new rule - so I have no idea why you think they will change it.  It has been in place multiple years and they have not reverted back to your suggestion of :”Headfirst = not giving yourself up.  Sliding = giving yourself up”.

 

As I said it was done at the request of the competition committee with input from high profile QBs.  The idea is to keep them from getting hit.  They give them forward progress to the point of contact with the ground or start of the slide and consider them touched down at that spot - so the defenders do not have to rush in.

 

It was correctly called and handled appropriately and it easily could have been a TD if he stays on his feet and takes the hit, but he made the choice to avoid contact and they marked him correctly.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

40 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

They changed the rule and personally I think it's dumb. If a quarterback wants to slide safely, they must learn the baseball slide. Going head first is a risk but will get you more yards.

It was called correctly.

 

Why did they change the rule?  They changed the rule because several high profile QBs (see Brady and Manning - and others) had issues trying to slide while wearing a knee brace.  Famously Manning caught his knee on a grass surface sliding when the brace caught and stuck. 
 

The idea was even if we are diving head first rather than give the defense free reign to deliver a blow as they make you down by contact - we will accept being down where we first make contact and avoid the hit.

 

It has worked for multiple years - should be fine to continue.  If the QB wants the TD - you have to rush the hit in this case - if not they shouldn’t be rewarded for going down and making the defender rush up and hit him - to much risk for to little reward.

 

 

[WhoTom]

The defenders were a yard deep into the end zone, so he could have taken at least one more step before diving. But given the early dive, all he had to do was extend his arm over the goal line before his knee hit the ground.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Seems pretty simple really.  If you want to get into the end zone....then get into the end zone!

[Buffalo03]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Heinecki should know better. 

 

[DCOrange]

15 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This was a bad interpretation of the new rule. I think they are trying to basically say a head first slide is the same as a feet first slide. 
 

He is clearly not sliding— he is diving for the endzone. To the OP’s point, if this is called a “slide”/giving yourself up, then Lamar Jackson diving forward into the endzone for a somersault should not be a TD. 

 

If Lamar had landed short of the end zone, this would be true.

14 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

So then not to bring up old stuff (but to completely bring up old stuff) didn’t heinicke do the same thing when he scored against the Bills? I get they are trying to protect the QB, but shouldn’t the action happening around the QB come into effect? The closest defender wasn’t that close 
 

 

edit: to be clear, I actually think in both instances they are touchdowns, just pointing out he made the same play against the Bills. 

No, because Heinicke didn't come up short against Buffalo on his dive like he did against Green Bay.

[Shaw66]

The question turns on whether he was giving himself up or trying to advance the ball.  It was pretty clear that he was giving himself up to avoid contact.  So, the ball is spotted where it was when his knee hit the ground. It really was a pretty routine call.  

[Marv's Neighbor]

Stupid rule, or not, he had no reason to drop/slide.  He chose to slide and his knee touched before the ball crossed the plane.  Could have just continued running into the end zone and, where he would score.