AP exclusive: Bills propose new 60k seat stadium by (update - 2025)

[SoCal Deek]

The seating capacity discussion is an interesting one. Just like with any large venue the balance has to be struck between capacity and price. One of the new variables in the equation has to be the move towards streaming as opposed to live event attendance. I’m guessing some believe stadiums will be getting smaller and more people will simply pay to watch on TV. However, as we all know, WNY is not like your average NFL region, and I tend to side with those who’d suggest more, less expensive seats fit the region way better than less, more expensive seats. It’ll be interesting to see where it lands. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

17 hours ago, BTB said:

I could be wrong but I think the highest capacity was 80,020...or maybe that was when it first opened.  The Aud after they raised the roof...16,433.  🙂

You might be right on the exact number at Rich.  I knew it was a little over 80,000.  And that was definitely the number at the Aud.  Remember that well, when the Sabres were a respected and respectable hockey team..  So long ago!!

18 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Not necessarily the population in 1990 was 954,883 and today it's 886,477. 

Given the size of the region, including Rochester and Southern Ontario, I would think the 70,000 is very doable.  But I haven't lived in WNY in years, and entertainment is so fragmented in today's world, it may be more difficult to fill up the stadium.  

 

Interesting how many college football stadiums in the midwest and south sell upwards of 80,000 seats for every game.  

[DrDawkinstein]

For what it's worth, 60,000 doesnt seem that too far off the mark when you look at the actual numbers.

 

If you add in the suites, we're pretty much right on average.

 

 

Now, the obvious counterpoint being that most of these numbers come from the Drought Years when we would be eliminated by November and attendance would drop off.

 

I personally think 65,000 plus suites is the sweet spot.

 

Would be interested in seeing the attendance numbers at the end of this year. I bet it will be closer to 70,000 average.

[SDS]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

This is on the Howard and Jeremy show now, but Sal is on.  They are debating both sides.  Goodell made a good point that it needs to fit Buffalo.  I can see 65-70,000 seats.  60k would be the smallest in the NFL.  We’re not SF.  this would be a huge mistake as all the players even from other teams state we have a college feel.  Go to an AL or FL game and you’d know Buffalo is special.  That needs to stay that way.

 

Besides, do you know how expensive a 60k stadium would be?  It would completely price out the real fans.

 

The new standard should be 25k. Big ass TVs, access to feeds, and the game itself is a made for TV production that points to a drastically smaller footprint. Way too much money and resources are dedicated to a tiny live audience compared to the viewing audience at large. 

[DrDawkinstein]

5 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

The new standard should be 25k. Big ass TVs, access to feeds, and the game itself is a made for TV production that points to a drastically smaller footprint. Way too much money and resources are dedicated to a tiny live audience compared to the viewing audience at large. 

 

I get what you're saying from a pure business perspective, but I think one thing was made clear last year: the energy of the large crowds of rabid fans greatly improves the quality of the product for the tv audience. That goes for all sports. And for a region like WNY that doesnt have a lot of other entertainment options, it should be something the entire community can attend and come together as one big group. IMO, at least.

[Metal Man]

Saw an interesting take on the stadium capacity discussion on the news the other night.

 

Basically the guy was saying that when you start to add extra seating capacity you build up which significantly raises the cost with more structural support needed. However since those are the nose bleed seats you are adding a lot of construction cost for extra capacity at the cheapest seat sales price.

 

Makes sense to me then that above the ~60k range is where they decided the extra cost wasn't worth the extra seat revenue.

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, Metal Man said:

Saw an interesting take on the stadium capacity discussion on the news the other night.

 

Basically the guy was saying that when you start to add extra seating capacity you build up which significantly raises the cost with more structural support needed. However since those are the nose bleed seats you are adding a lot of construction cost for extra capacity at the cheapest seat sales price.

 

Makes sense to me then that above the ~60k range is where they decided the extra cost wasn't worth the extra seat revenue.

that sounds fine, but your last line sounds like a guess. 

[Royale with Cheese]

18 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

For what it's worth, 60,000 doesnt seem that too far off the mark when you look at the actual numbers.

 

If you add in the suites, we're pretty much right on average.

 

 

Now, the obvious counterpoint being that most of these numbers come from the Drought Years when we would be eliminated by November and attendance would drop off.

 

I personally think 65,000 plus suites is the sweet spot.

 

Would be interested in seeing the attendance numbers at the end of this year. I bet it will be closer to 70,000 average.

 

It seems smaller stadiums are the new norm outside of Dallas.

 

Allegiant is 65,000

Levi's is 68,500

Mercedes is 71,000

US Bank is 66,200

 

All these are much bigger markets too.

[Draconator]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

It seems smaller stadiums are the new norm outside of Dallas.

 

Allegiant is 65,000

Levi's is 68,500

Mercedes is 71,000

US Bank is 66,200

 

All these are much bigger markets too.

I think with Allegiant and Levi's, they can expand the seating. Levi's is close to 80K for a Superbowl or National Championship game 

[SoMAn]

46 minutes ago, Greg S said:

 

2027 does seem to far off. When they get shovels in the ground it should take 2.5-3 years to build it. Having Hochul on the Bills side should help them get thru all potential problems that could come up with a project like this.

What problems? Just do it! 

I think the people involved create their own problems. How hard is it? Other major cities either don't have the volume of problems Buffalo seems to have or if problems arise, they solve them quickly.

[Estro]

As a season ticket holder since the 2002 who now lives in Southern NJ (about a 7 hour drive to the stadium) I'm going to relish these last 5 or so years left @ the current stadium.

 

Ive been to probably 10 other NFL stadiums and the best sight lines by far are at Bills Stadium.  The new stadiums seem to be built to host other events like soccer matches so the actual field arear is much larger. In many cases this means if you're in the lower level sidelines or corner you're often an additional 50-100 feet from the game. It might not sound like a huge difference, but for me it's a huge.

 

Will the new stadium be exciting? Yes, it's nice to have new things, but when factoring in crappier sight lines, probable 40-100% ticket price hikes & probable 1.5k-4k PSLs, I'll probably have to bail on my season tickets. I won't be able to afford PSLs on my current 4 season tickets that are in section 134, plain and simple.

[SoMAn]

52 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

Can we get a “facepalm” emoji choice on the board? Need it for those that keep saying we can host a SB in Buffalo. 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

I don't know if you were responding to my post from just before yours.  My statement clearly said AFC Championship game, not SB.

[Metal Man]

13 minutes ago, SDS said:

that sounds fine, but your last line sounds like a guess. 

 

Definitely just a guess which is all any of us can really do right now in regards to how they came up with that capacity number.

 

Anything that has to do with maximizing profit though is probably a good guess.

[Back2Buff]

1 hour ago, NJKBillsfan said:

Does it even make sense for the new stadium to be only 60k when the current stadium consistently sells out at 73k?

 

Plus the team is just getting good so demand will be even higher in the future. 

 

No it doesn't.  Obviously last year there were no fans, but in 2019 when this team was on the verge of playoffs, the stadium did not sell out in December.

 

When the weather gets cold, that stadium is lucky to get 60k.

[Doc]

18 minutes ago, SDS said:

that sounds fine, but your last line sounds like a guess. 

 

Not really.  According to jw's report, they considered 65K seats at $200M more.

[SDS]

Just now, Doc said:

 

Not really.  According to jw's report, they considered 65K seats at $200M more.

 

I didn't read the story. If that's the case, then that is an excellent reason to downsize. Thanks for the head's up.

[Doc]

Just now, SDS said:

I didn't read the story. If that's the case, then that is an excellent reason to downsize. Thanks for the head's up.

 

No problem.  I just don't think that 60K versus 65K (league average) is such a big deal.  With more and more tech, people are watching at home more.  This way they get sell-outs consistently even in the dead of winter.  But my opinion/guess is that the 60K isn't set in stone.

[May Day 10]

5 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

 

No it doesn't.  Obviously last year there were no fans, but in 2019 when this team was on the verge of playoffs, the stadium did not sell out in December.

 

When the weather gets cold, that stadium is lucky to get 60k.

 

I just looked at attendance figured for the 2019 season

 

December 29th vs jets had 69,016

December 8th vs Ravens had 69,134

The opener vs Cincinnati had 69,448

 

according to football reference.

[Virgil]

WGR said this morning it was a covered stadium, anyone else hear that?   

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Part of our home field advantage has always been the noise generated by the 12th man of course, and am just wondering what the acoustics engineering will look like to still be able to retain current levels (hopefully) even with less total fans in the stands? The Falcons solved their "decibel woes" a few years back by other means, but we don't want to stoop to that. 

 

 https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/01/report-falcons-alleged-to-have-piped-in-crowd-noise-nfl-discipline-expected/  

Edited September 1, 2021 by NoHuddleKelly12

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, Virgil said:

WGR said this morning it was a covered stadium, anyone else hear that?   

yes you misunderstood or do not understand the meaning of a covered stadium. Most of the seating will be under cover not in the elements of nature but will be an open air stadium. That's the difference. So if its raining you may get some spray, if its snowing you may get some snow but not a lot. leaving the field open to the elements.

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

I just looked at attendance figured for the 2019 season

 

December 29th vs jets had 69,016

December 8th vs Ravens had 69,134

The opener vs Cincinnati had 69,448

 

according to football reference.

 

Yep, need to look at non-Drought numbers.

 

The whole "stadium is empty in December" was true, back when we stunk and were eliminated in November. I'd bet good money the stadium will be packed (68,000+) for all the December games this year.

[The Jokeman]

6 minutes ago, Virgil said:

WGR said this morning it was a covered stadium, anyone else hear that?   

I read that all the seats would be covered but it's not a dome aka hole in the middle of the top. 

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, The Jokeman said:

I read that all the seats would be covered but it's not a dome aka hole in the middle of the top. 

replace All with Most

[4_kidd_4]

28 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

I don't know if you were responding to my post from just before yours.  My statement clearly said AFC Championship game, not SB.

 

Nah, yr post was a different kinda derp altogether

[Motorin']

The biggest problem with Wawrow's article his random quote from a University of Chicago professor claiming stadiums never generate economic impact.

 

The tax payers of WNY really need someone to dig deep on the structure of the San Fran and Minn deals.

 

Both cities have long term lease deals in place that range from 25M per year to 8M +3% per year. Over a 30-50 year lease, if the bulk of that money is invested in high yield funds, the returns are significant. 

 

 

[May Day 10]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yep, need to look at non-Drought numbers.

 

The whole "stadium is empty in December" was true, back when we stunk and were eliminated in November. I'd bet good money the stadium will be packed (68,000+) for all the December games this year.

 

People always point to the 90s era blackouts too, but the lack of internet sales, a week-window, and a humongous capacity has a lot to do with that.  The weather was a factor to some degree, and we were getting a little bit spoiled by the end of the run.

 

 

IMO, outdoor, with a little more protection from the wind, rain, etc will keep attendance up all season.

 

 

Looking through 2019, i was surprised to see the attendance at a lot of places.  It seems most crowds are about 64-69K.  The average was 66-67K for the whole league.

 

I think we need a stadium that seats 65K here at a minimum.   We have a gate-experience-driven fanbase, and to purposely stifle supply, especially in the name of cost is a terrible idea.  They made a lot of concessions to save some $ for Crossroads Arena and in hindsight, we have a terrible arena in 2021, one I wish we could raze and build anew.

 

[SDS]

37 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yep, need to look at non-Drought numbers.

 

The whole "stadium is empty in December" was true, back when we stunk and were eliminated in November. I'd bet good money the stadium will be packed (68,000+) for all the December games this year.

 

I would say the exact opposite. Why would we look at the high water mark and not something lower?

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

 

I would say the exact opposite. Why would we look at the high water mark and not something lower?

 

Sorry, getting a little off track. That comment chain was focusing more on the assertion that "the stadium is empty in December" than scoping the capacity for the new stadium. Agreed it would be bad planning to only look at the high numbers.

 

Like I said on the previous page, I do think 60,000 + suites is right on target. I'd personally like to see it at a larger capacity, but I get why it is what it is.

[SDS]

I think looking at construction breaks in the cost curve is an excellent way to do this. I wish I would have thought of this on my own.

[May Day 10]

Just looked at some 2009 and 2010 December home games (in the true teeth of the drought).  For the most part, they were about 68K, 69K for those games.  There was a Browns game that was just over 50K, which was the only 1 out of the 5 I looked at that was under 68K.  That was during the awful 2010 season that they started off 0-8 or whatever.  

 

So 60K just to prevent the possibility of a game in a terrible season not selling out doesn't sound like a legit excuse.

 

[QCity]

26 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

The biggest problem with Wawrow's article his random quote from a University of Chicago professor claiming stadiums never generate economic impact.

 

 

Football stadiums do not foster economic growth in their surrounding areas, and in some cases they may actually hinder it. Look no further than the current stadium built 50 years ago -- there's been nothing in the area for 5 decades save for a few bars, gas stations, and a 7-11.  For some reason many fans think building a stadium downtown will transform the area into this year-round hub of entertainment, but that's not the reality of the situation -- it's misplaced wishful thinking.

 

Now a baseball stadium, a facility that is open 6-7 months of the year with 80-90 sporting events is a completely different animal, and I think that may mislead some people.

 

So if you want to quantify a baseline economic impact with hard figures, it isn't difficult. There's a ~$180M player payroll and the majority of those guys are in the high tax brackets. That's not counting coaches, front office, marketing, administration, and all of the other staff that come together to make this operation work. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that $1.4B was paid for in organizational income taxes alone over a 40 year period. But good luck selling that to NYS taxpayers, and I don't blame them. The optics of the Pegulas building a mega-yacht sure doesn't help.

[SDS]

13 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

Just looked at some 2009 and 2010 December home games (in the true teeth of the drought).  For the most part, they were about 68K, 69K for those games.  There was a Browns game that was just over 50K, which was the only 1 out of the 5 I looked at that was under 68K.  That was during the awful 2010 season that they started off 0-8 or whatever.  

 

So 60K just to prevent the possibility of a game in a terrible season not selling out doesn't sound like a legit excuse.

 

it sounds like that isn’t the reason at all, but a construction one. 

[Motorin']

7 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

Football stadiums do not foster economic growth in their surrounding areas, and in some cases they may actually hinder it. Look no further than the current stadium built 50 years ago -- there's been nothing in the area for 5 decades save for a few bars, gas stations, and a 7-11.  For some reason many fans think building a stadium downtown will transform the area into this year-round hub of entertainment, but that's not the reality of the situation -- it's misplaced wishful thinking.

 

Now a baseball stadium, a facility that is open 6-7 months of the year with 80-90 sporting events is a completely different animal, and I think that may mislead some people.

 

So if you want to quantify a baseline economic impact with hard figures, it isn't difficult. There's a ~$180M player payroll and the majority of those guys are in the high tax brackets. That's not counting coaches, front office, marketing, administration, and all of the other staff that come together to make this operation work. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that $1.4B was paid for in organizational income taxes alone over a 40 year period. But good luck selling that to NYS taxpayers, and I don't blame them. The optics of the Pegulas building a mega-yacht sure doesn't help.

 

PSE estimates that the Bills provide 360M per year to the local economy, so they put figure out there and it's cited in Wawrow's article. 

 

The stadium's not being built downtown, so the question of economic impact to the surrounding area is moot.

 

But Pegula has said he's open to public ownership of the stadium, and the San Fran and Minn deals are examples to look at. In both cases, if the yearly lease fees are held in high yield accounts, we're talking about recouping the entirely of the public dollars over the first 10-15 years. And doubling it over 30. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Motorin'

[eball]

15 minutes ago, SDS said:

it sounds like that isn’t the reason at all, but a construction one. 

 

Yeah, I get the impression they want the seats to be more comfortable and have the stadium built in a way that protects many (most?) of the fans from extreme weather.  I have no problem with any number between 60-65K (not that they’ve asked me).

 

Can’t wait to see some renderings of the proposed build (I would like to see some drawrings).

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by eball

[Huh? What?]

Regarding the 60 suites proposal, currently at Highmark OTB has a suite for high rollers, I imagine Seneca also has a suite or suites for their high rollers. The state has a suite, Pegula has a suite and the visiting team has a suite. I can't say for sure but I would think the Buffalo Niagara Partnership has a suite to woo companies they're seeking to locate in Buffalo. If they all retain suites at the new stadium, you're down to 54 suites. I imagine who ever has the sports book at the stadium will also have suite for high rollers. Assuming that M&T, Rich, Delaware North, NOCO, and Highmark Blue Cross will have suites, you got 46 suites left (45 if Josh gets his suite). I imagine a lot of the current suite holders will be funneled into club seats with high end perks. I can't imagine what the pricing will be, but it will be sky high. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Huh? What?
new wording

[SDS]

6 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Yeah, I get the impression they want the seats to be more comfortable and have the stadium built in a way the protects many (most?) of the fans from extreme weather.  I have no problem with any number between 60-65K (not that they’ve asked me).

 

Can’t wait to see some renderings of the proposed build (I would like to see some drawrings).

make it a great experience for the people who go and look for big changes in the cost curve as attendance increases. Cap attendance at the appropriate point in the cost curve.

[corta765]

4 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

If the bills are in for close to 50% then I am fine with the county and state on the other half.

 

My problem would be if the Bills were asking for the public to be in for all of it.

 

50/50 ish is pretty fair. Renovation was like 150-200 mil a decade ago. Your looking at 700 mil with this but compared to some deals recently that isn't that bad.

31 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

Football stadiums do not foster economic growth in their surrounding areas, and in some cases they may actually hinder it. Look no further than the current stadium built 50 years ago -- there's been nothing in the area for 5 decades save for a few bars, gas stations, and a 7-11.  For some reason many fans think building a stadium downtown will transform the area into this year-round hub of entertainment, but that's not the reality of the situation -- it's misplaced wishful thinking.

 

Now a baseball stadium, a facility that is open 6-7 months of the year with 80-90 sporting events is a completely different animal, and I think that may mislead some people.

 

So if you want to quantify a baseline economic impact with hard figures, it isn't difficult. There's a ~$180M player payroll and the majority of those guys are in the high tax brackets. That's not counting coaches, front office, marketing, administration, and all of the other staff that come together to make this operation work. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that $1.4B was paid for in organizational income taxes alone over a 40 year period. But good luck selling that to NYS taxpayers, and I don't blame them. The optics of the Pegulas building a mega-yacht sure doesn't help.

 

This is so spot on. If anything the greatest economic benefit is the players on both teams being taxed on their salaries for each game played in Buffalo. That is a good chunk of tax money. There is a residual effect in terms of people going to bars and restaurants, but it doesn't benefit the way people think and tax brought back in is relatively small by comparison. Honestly if it is 50/50 split or close that isn't awful and if it really is true that a reno was 1 bil, 1.4 makes sense to just be new and done. 

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, Metal Man said:

Saw an interesting take on the stadium capacity discussion on the news the other night.

 

Basically the guy was saying that when you start to add extra seating capacity you build up which significantly raises the cost with more structural support needed. However since those are the nose bleed seats you are adding a lot of construction cost for extra capacity at the cheapest seat sales price.

 

Makes sense to me then that above the ~60k range is where they decided the extra cost wasn't worth the extra seat revenue.

 

It makes sense as per previous discussions - the price tag was quoted at around 1.8 billion open air in OP with about 70,000.

 

It sounds like after discussion the leaked info cut 400,000 off the price, but to do that cut about 10,000 seats.

 

There is a sweet spot - the question becomes who is paying to get to the sweet spot and adding the seats.

 

 

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

 

No it doesn't.  Obviously last year there were no fans, but in 2019 when this team was on the verge of playoffs, the stadium did not sell out in December.

 

When the weather gets cold, that stadium is lucky to get 60k.

No no and no. Don’t you know blue collar Buffalo fans demand to sit in the elements, instead of a climate controlled indoor stadium. 
 

/sarcasm off