AP exclusive: Bills propose new 60k seat stadium by (update - 2025)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Some truth

[Punching Bag]

3 hours ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

Can we get a “facepalm” emoji choice on the board? Need it for those that keep saying we can host a SB in Buffalo. 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

 

I guess that is more polite than a dunce cap.

[billsfanmiamioh]

Smallest nfl stadium for the smallest market? The horror! 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

I think looking at construction breaks in the cost curve is an excellent way to do this. I wish I would have thought of this on my own.

 

There's the concessions phenomenon too.

 

I don't know what % of the revenue from football games is from during-game concessions, but I have it from a reliable source that various nonprofits have found an interesting effect of limiting attendence on profits.

 

Specifically, admission the St Louis Zoo is free, so they make all their money on extras - parking, concessions and "special activities" like train, carousel, touch a ray, sea lion show, etc.  They had to limit the number of admissions this past year. 

To their surprise, and they are busy trying to model this, they are making more money at partial admission than they did at full admission!  The hypothesis is maybe when lines were "too long", some people would just bail but when lines are shorter, they queue up and buy.

Now obviously the landscape is different for football, but there's probably a similar impact where at some point, less fans to queue up for beer and hotdogs means more fans will buy.

[Boatdrinks]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's the concessions phenomenon too.

 

I don't know what % of the revenue from football games is from during-game concessions, but I have it from a reliable source that various nonprofits have found an interesting effect of limiting attendence on profits.

 

Specifically, admission the St Louis Zoo is free, so they make all their money on extras - parking, concessions and "special activities" like train, carousel, touch a ray, sea lion show, etc.  They had to limit the number of admissions this past year. 

To their surprise, and they are busy trying to model this, they are making more money at partial admission than they did at full admission!  The hypothesis is maybe when lines were "too long", some people would just bail but when lines are shorter, they queue up and buy.

Now obviously the landscape is different for football, but there's probably a similar impact where at some point, less fans to queue up for beer and hotdogs means more fans will buy.

Interesting, and I can totally see this. I despise lines, and will walk away or even exit a store if the checkout lines are crazy. Everyone has a breaking point. 

[Doc]

43 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Some truth

 

The Bills: We listened and put a 70K seat domed stadium downtown.  But your ticket prices will double and you will have to pay several thousand in PSLs.

Bills Fans:  Wait, what?!

[Mr. WEO]

17 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The Bills: We listened and put a 70K seat domed stadium downtown.  But your ticket prices will double and you will have to pay several thousand in PSLs.

Bills Fans:  Wait, what?!

 

 

Instead they get The Ralph 2.0, a 75% increase in ticket prices, and PSLs.

[SDS]

36 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Interesting, and I can totally see this. I despise lines, and will walk away or even exit a store if the checkout lines are crazy. Everyone has a breaking point. 

 

This doesn't make any sense and is reminiscent about the Yogi Berra joke, "Nobody goes there anymore, it is too crowded."  If the zoo concessions operated at maximum capacity from open to close, it doesn't matter how many people walk away. They don't have the ability to serve more people. It would make more sense if the figure of merit was concessions dollar/person or something like that. 

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

This doesn't make any sense and is reminiscent about the Yogi Berra joke, "Nobody goes there anymore, it is too crowded."  If the zoo concessions operated at maximum capacity from open to close, it doesn't matter how many people walk away. They don't have the ability to serve more people. It would make more sense if the figure of merit was concessions dollar/person or something like that. 

Ha ha ha lol. Love that Berra quote ; a personal favorite. Perhaps there are lulls created  from people walking away and are past concessions area by that point ? I don’t know, but it does seem contradictory. 

[Doc]

21 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Instead they get The Ralph 2.0, a 75% increase in ticket prices, and PSLs.

 

Yeah, except it being a new and better stadium.  A 5-10K reduction in seating is immaterial and a roof seems to be unpopular.  And if you want downtown experience, hit it up after the game.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's the concessions phenomenon too.

 

I don't know what % of the revenue from football games is from during-game concessions, but I have it from a reliable source that various nonprofits have found an interesting effect of limiting attendence on profits.

 

Specifically, admission the St Louis Zoo is free, so they make all their money on extras - parking, concessions and "special activities" like train, carousel, touch a ray, sea lion show, etc.  They had to limit the number of admissions this past year. 

To their surprise, and they are busy trying to model this, they are making more money at partial admission than they did at full admission!  The hypothesis is maybe when lines were "too long", some people would just bail but when lines are shorter, they queue up and buy.

Now obviously the landscape is different for football, but there's probably a similar impact where at some point, less fans to queue up for beer and hotdogs means more fans will buy.

 

I'm hoping for the opposite and that they go for the Atlanta/Mecedes Benz Stadium method. Cheap concessions means more folks willing to buy in the stadium means more revenue.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I'm hoping for the opposite and that they go for the Atlanta/Mecedes Benz Stadium method. Cheap concessions means more folks willing to buy in the stadium means more revenue.

 

 

I don't think we're talking about "opposite" things

 

You're talking about the effect of concession pricing on concession profits

 

I'm talking about the effect of attendence (thus concession lines) on concession profits

 

But maybe I don't get your point?

[Metal Man]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's the concessions phenomenon too.

 

I don't know what % of the revenue from football games is from during-game concessions, but I have it from a reliable source that various nonprofits have found an interesting effect of limiting attendence on profits.

 

Specifically, admission the St Louis Zoo is free, so they make all their money on extras - parking, concessions and "special activities" like train, carousel, touch a ray, sea lion show, etc.  They had to limit the number of admissions this past year. 

To their surprise, and they are busy trying to model this, they are making more money at partial admission than they did at full admission!  The hypothesis is maybe when lines were "too long", some people would just bail but when lines are shorter, they queue up and buy.

Now obviously the landscape is different for football, but there's probably a similar impact where at some point, less fans to queue up for beer and hotdogs means more fans will buy.

 

This is really interesting and as anecdotal support I can confirm the theory from personal experience.

 

Whenever I go to our minor league baseball stadium and they are at or above half capacity the concession lines are out of control so there have been plenty of times where I walk up for something and head right back to my seat after seeing the lines.

 

Now half full shouldn't cause a logjam like that and they need to improve their system somehow but I can see an argument that based on space there is only so much throughput a concession outfit can handle.

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think we're talking about "opposite" things

 

You're talking about the effect of concession pricing on concession profits

 

I'm talking about the effect of attendence (thus concession lines) on concession profits

 

But maybe I don't get your point?

 

No, youre right, I'm a bit off on a tangent.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

34 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

This doesn't make any sense and is reminiscent about the Yogi Berra joke, "Nobody goes there anymore, it is too crowded."  If the zoo concessions operated at maximum capacity from open to close, it doesn't matter how many people walk away. They don't have the ability to serve more people. It would make more sense if the figure of merit was concessions dollar/person or something like that. 

 

I'm just reporting the finding I heard: lower # of admissions overall, higher concession sales than when full attendance.  My source is someone in a position to get 1st hand data.  And yes, it would have to amount to more concession $$/person, but the point was it went beyond that into more revenue per week (although fewer people). 

Management was surprised it worked out that way.  It was unexpected, and they were trying to figure out why, and if there would be a "sweet spot" where they could increase admissions and still make more $$/person, like maybe 2/3 capacity or 3/4 capacity would be even better if the $$ per person stayed the same but the # people could be bumped up.

It's a good guess that the concessions were not operating at max capacity open to close, since apparently they did have the capacity to serve more people.  It's also possible that having a reservation/timed entry system spaces people out so that the concession buying is more even.

[corta765]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's the concessions phenomenon too.

 

I don't know what % of the revenue from football games is from during-game concessions, but I have it from a reliable source that various nonprofits have found an interesting effect of limiting attendence on profits.

 

Specifically, admission the St Louis Zoo is free, so they make all their money on extras - parking, concessions and "special activities" like train, carousel, touch a ray, sea lion show, etc.  They had to limit the number of admissions this past year. 

To their surprise, and they are busy trying to model this, they are making more money at partial admission than they did at full admission!  The hypothesis is maybe when lines were "too long", some people would just bail but when lines are shorter, they queue up and buy.

Now obviously the landscape is different for football, but there's probably a similar impact where at some point, less fans to queue up for beer and hotdogs means more fans will buy.

 

The Falcons by reducing their concessions have sold and made more money. Kids day I love because the concessions are cheap and the inverse is I am actually more willing to buy more because the concessions are less. Instead of spending $25, I spend $40 because it feels like I can get more. The human brain is weird lol

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I'm hoping for the opposite and that they go for the Atlanta/Mecedes Benz Stadium method. Cheap concessions means more folks willing to buy in the stadium means more revenue.

 

 

Additionally merchandise wise a parent who was a no might be more of maybe if the kids are asking because they spent less in food.

[May Day 10]

A lot of the issue is the employees' management of the lines.

 

Normally, you get to the front of the line.  You get some stupe.  You order a couple beers.  They take their time operating the register, complete the transaction.  After that, they will either grab the cup(s), wait to get someone's attention (who is dealing with a different order) for a minute.  Then slowly pour the draft beers themselves if the other person ignores them for long enough.  Then they ask you if you would like the lids, followed by putting the lids on like they are splitting the atom.  Then onto the next person.  Or you will order like a hot dog and see a similar transaction, but the person operating the register will need to walk to the opposite side of the stand to retrieve the hot dog, maneuvering through the other workers, then slowly walk back.

 

There is almost no efficiency when it comes to Bills, Bisons, or Sabres games.  I have gone other venues where they have it down to a science.

 

At one of the Blue Jays games this year I went to the beer stand and they had a woman taking orders and another one pouring, staying ahead of the rush.  The line moved as fast as people could check out.  It was amazing, I could have hugged the workers.  Instead I tipped them like $5

 

 

Most of the time, at these Buffalo venues, they have the lines go straight back to the opposite wall.  OMG, it creates several pinch-points throughout the concourse and creates misery.  Every civilized city has figured out you do the zig-zag rope system, feeding into every register.   Beer-only lines seem like a wonderful and under-utilized idea here

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by May Day 10

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

A lot of the issue is the employees' management of the lines.

 

Normally, you get to the front of the line.  You get some stupe.  You order a couple beers.  They take their time operating the register, complete the transaction.  The will either grab the cup(s), wait to get someone's attention for a minute.  Then slowly pour the draft beers themselves.  Ask you if you would like the lids.  Put the lids on like they are splitting the atom.  Then onto the next person.  Or you will order like a hot dog and see a similar transaction, but the person operating the register will need to walk to the opposite side of the stand to retrieve the hot dog, maneuvering through the other workers.

 

There is almost no efficiency when it comes to Bills, Bisons, or Sabres games.  I have gone other venues where they have it down to a science.

 

At one of the Blue Jays games this year I went to the beer stand and they had a woman taking orders and another one pouring, staying ahead of the rush.  The line moved as fast as people could check out.  It was amazing, I could have hugged the workers.  Instead I tipped them like $5

 

 

Most of the time, at these Buffalo venues, they have the lines go straight back to the opposite wall.  OMG, it creates several pinch-points throughout the concourse and creates misery.  Every civilized city has figured out you do the zig-zag rope system, feeding into every register.   Beer-only lines seem like a wonderful and under-utilized idea here

 

So you're saying the same number of concessions could serve the same # of ticketholders and get more business if they shortened the lines by operating more efficiently?

[PromoTheRobot]

7 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

A lot of the issue is the employees' management of the lines.

 

Normally, you get to the front of the line.  You get some stupe.  You order a couple beers.  They take their time operating the register, complete the transaction.  The will either grab the cup(s), wait to get someone's attention for a minute.  Then slowly pour the draft beers themselves.  Ask you if you would like the lids.  Put the lids on like they are splitting the atom.  Then onto the next person.  Or you will order like a hot dog and see a similar transaction, but the person operating the register will need to walk to the opposite side of the stand to retrieve the hot dog, maneuvering through the other workers.

 

There is almost no efficiency when it comes to Bills, Bisons, or Sabres games.  I have gone other venues where they have it down to a science.

 

At one of the Blue Jays games this year I went to the beer stand and they had a woman taking orders and another one pouring, staying ahead of the rush.  The line moved as fast as people could check out.  It was amazing, I could have hugged the workers.  Instead I tipped them like $5

 

 

Most of the time, at these Buffalo venues, they have the lines go straight back to the opposite wall.  OMG, it creates several pinch-points throughout the concourse and creates misery.  Every civilized city has figured out you do the zig-zag rope system, feeding into every register.   Beer-only lines seem like a wonderful and under-utilized idea here

 

 

 

At Polar Park in Worcester, the Triple-A home of the Red Sox, they have a "convenience store." Walk in, grab what you want, scan your items and wave your chipped credit card or phone to pay. So simple. So obvious. And yet few is any other venues do this.

Edited September 1, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Mr. WEO]

25 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Yeah, except it being a new and better stadium.  A 5-10K reduction in seating is immaterial and a roof seems to be unpopular.  And if you want downtown experience, hit it up after the game.

 

The point is that i don't see a significant difference in the price point between the two options, comparing to current prices (as you compared).

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

A lot of the issue is the employees' management of the lines.

 

Normally, you get to the front of the line.  You get some stupe.  You order a couple beers.  They take their time operating the register, complete the transaction.  The will either grab the cup(s), wait to get someone's attention for a minute.  Then slowly pour the draft beers themselves.  Ask you if you would like the lids.  Put the lids on like they are splitting the atom.  Then onto the next person.  Or you will order like a hot dog and see a similar transaction, but the person operating the register will need to walk to the opposite side of the stand to retrieve the hot dog, maneuvering through the other workers.

 

There is almost no efficiency when it comes to Bills, Bisons, or Sabres games.  I have gone other venues where they have it down to a science.

 

At one of the Blue Jays games this year I went to the beer stand and they had a woman taking orders and another one pouring, staying ahead of the rush.  The line moved as fast as people could check out.  It was amazing, I could have hugged the workers.  Instead I tipped them like $5

 

 

Most of the time, at these Buffalo venues, they have the lines go straight back to the opposite wall.  OMG, it creates several pinch-points throughout the concourse and creates misery.  Every civilized city has figured out you do the zig-zag rope system, feeding into every register.   Beer-only lines seem like a wonderful and under-utilized idea here

 

 

 

One time i tried to get coffee during MNF (I think it was patriots buffalo in 2018 with derek anderson), and they just told me they were out of coffee.  I don't drink during the games as I usually have to drive so I stop like an hour before kickoff + gametime + walk to the car and I'm good to go.  Coffee doesn't like sober me up, but A - it was cold, and B - It's sort of a placebo effect on sobering you up a bit faster.  

 

I got a hot chocolate that was about half the size of the cup.. for like 8 dollars.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

At Polar Park in Worcester, the Triple-A home of the Red Sox, they have a "convenience store." Walk in, grab what you want, scan your items and wave your chipped credit card or phone to pay. So simple. So obvious. And yet...

 

Every major airport has these as well--all of the "Hudson News" type places and food courts.  They just have staff watching as you check out

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So you're saying the same number of concessions could serve the same # of ticketholders and get more business if they shortened the lines by operating more efficiently?

 

I think you'll see it be more like uber eats.  You place your order in an app for the concession location you want, they tell you it is ready, and then you go to a counter and they hand you your food/drink (maybe a quick verification using your ticket barcode or something).  Do beer only at other concession stands where you have to show ID, and get faster beer taps.  Since they have to turn off beer at halftime - the app portion is unaffected.  

Edited September 1, 2021 by dneveu

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

The point is that i don't see a significant difference in the price point between the two options, comparing to current prices (as you compared).

 

We can speculate on the actual price increases between a larger downtown roofed stadium or a smaller open air one in OP.  The point being it will be a significant one for the former.  And if you were to tell fans up front, they'd say "we'll make do with the current plan."

[RiotAct]

11 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

Normally, you get to the front of the line.  You get some stupe.  You order a couple beers.  They take their time operating the register, complete the transaction.  The will either grab the cup(s), wait to get someone's attention for a minute.  Then slowly pour the draft beers themselves.  Ask you if you would like the lids.  Put the lids on like they are splitting the atom.  Then onto the next person. 

 

LOL!!!!!

 

Minimum-wage concession stand worker: “Now I am become Death, destroyer of worlds”.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

We can speculate on the actual price increases between a larger downtown roofed stadium or a smaller open air one in OP.  The point being it will be a significant one for the former.  And if you were to tell fans up front, they'd say "we'll make do with the current plan."

 

What if it was presented to them as: "both will now require PSLs and major ticket price increases, would you rather pay all that for a smaller open stadium next to the old one, or a larger dome downtown?"?  The effect of 1.4 B vs 1.8 B (or whatever) between the 2 won't translate directly into a large difference in ticket prices over time.

4 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

LOL!!!!!

 

Minimum-wage concession stand worker: “Now I am become Death, destroyer of worlds”.

 

 

The Orchard Park Project.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

What if it was presented to them as: "both will now require PSLs and major ticket price increases, would you rather pay all that for a smaller open stadium next to the old one, or a larger dome downtown?"?  The effect of 1.4 B vs 1.8 B (or whatever) between the 2 won't translate directly into a large difference in ticket prices over time.

 

The downtown stadium is estimated to cost $2.3B.  And sure if you put it that way, people would probably want the downtown one.  If you gave specific prices, they probably wouldn't.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

The downtown stadium is estimated to cost $2.3B.  And sure if you put it that way, people would probably want the downtown one.  If you gave specific prices, they probably wouldn't.

 

Prices wouldn't be known for years.

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Some truth

That is funny, lol

 

But seriously, by all accounts people absolutely LOVE going to Bills games. Possibly the best experience in the NFL, even by other teams' fans. Why TF would we want to change that?

 

If they built a big domed stadium downtown, the same people would be complaining that it just doesn't have the same feel as the good ol' Ralph.

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Prices wouldn't be known for years.

 

You can easily ball park the price increases needed for a $900M stadium price difference.  Having a bigger stadium is immaterial really, fans mostly don't want a roof and downtown has loads of headaches involved and you're not missing out on anything there you can't recreate after the game.

[Greg S]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

That is funny, lol

 

But seriously, by all accounts people absolutely LOVE going to Bills games. Possibly the best experience in the NFL, even by other teams' fans. Why TF would we want to change that?

 

If they built a big domed stadium downtown, the same people would be complaining that it just doesn't have the same feel as the good ol' Ralph.

 

Bills fans are known for having some of the best tailgating in the NFL. People want to be out in parking lot drinking beers and grilling their food. Who wants to sit in a stadium restaurant paying for overpriced food and drinks?

[Doc]

I don't see the argument for a downtown stadium with its associated huge increase in prices across the board.  Some say it would revitalize the area, but is that even true?  And if so, that should be something the city pays for.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

I don't see the argument for a downtown stadium with its associated huge increase in prices across the board.  Some say it would revitalize the area, but is that even true?  And if so, that should be something the city pays for.

 

The stadium alone and itself wouldnt. But, if they tied in bars, restaurants, other commerical facilities around there. Maybe another hotel. And built the long needed rail from the airport to downtown with a stop at the stadium... now we're on the right track.

 

Absolutely agreed the city and state should pay for more on a downtown stadium, and would need to. Expand 190, add ramps, update surface roads nearby.

 

But like I said, even if it's $3B, they could make it happen if they wanted to. It's the only team that would play in NYS. NYC makes/loses $3B everyday by 10am. The city is good for it. Make them pay for something for us for once.

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

The stadium alone and itself wouldnt. But, if they tied in bars, restaurants, other commerical facilities around there. Maybe another hotel. And built the long needed rail from the airport to downtown with a stop at the stadium... now we're on the right track.

 

Absolutely agreed the city and state should pay for more on a downtown stadium, and would need to. Expand 190, add ramps, update surface roads nearby.

 

But like I said, even if it's $3B, they could make it happen if they wanted to. It's the only team that would play in NYS. NYC makes/loses $3B everyday by 10am. The city is good for it. Make them pay for something for us for once.

 

Yeah, but for maybe at most a dozen days/games a year?  I don't know.  Agree on the rest.

[SDS]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The stadium alone and itself wouldnt. But, if they tied in bars, restaurants, other commerical facilities around there. Maybe another hotel. And built the long needed rail from the airport to downtown with a stop at the stadium... now we're on the right track.

 

Absolutely agreed the city and state should pay for more on a downtown stadium, and would need to. Expand 190, add ramps, update surface roads nearby.

 

But like I said, even if it's $3B, they could make it happen if they wanted to. It's the only team that would play in NYS. NYC makes/loses $3B everyday by 10am. The city is good for it. Make them pay for something for us for once.

New York City adds to the economy of the rest of the state to the tune of about $16 billion a year. The other stuff just isn’t worn out in reality. How does one build a hotel around the schedule of 10 events a year? The same with restaurants or any other amenity. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Yeah, but for maybe at most a dozen days/games a year?  I don't know.  Agree on the rest.

 

Cobblestone district does fine business already, year-round. If you build a new bar strip area downtown, it will get used more than on just gameday.

[RiotAct]

14 minutes ago, Doc said:

I don't see the argument for a downtown stadium with its associated huge increase in prices across the board.  Some say it would revitalize the area, but is that even true?  And if so, that should be something the city pays for.

I bet Paula’s Donuts and Misuta Chow’s would open up satellite locations next to the stadium!

[Doc]

All that stuff is above my pay grade.  If they think it would help, then the city/state should pay for the difference in building a stadium downtown.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

New York City adds to the economy of the rest of the state to the tune of about $16 billion a year. The other stuff just isn’t worn out in reality. How does one build a hotel around the schedule of 10 events a year? The same with restaurants or any other amenity. 

 

Well then send $3B up this way!

 

I'm gonna go deep on a tangent if we keep going, but we'd be back to talking about an enclosed stadium that can be used as a convention center as well. Bring in a Bowl game, as well as the MAC championship. I'm sure there are plenty of other opportunities since I already came up with these off the top of my head, and I'm no expert. Plus just increasing Buffalo's tourist draw in general.

Just now, Doc said:

All that stuff is above my pay grade.  If they think it would help, then the city/state should pay for the difference in building a stadium downtown.

 

Yeah, I'm just spitballing as well. I'm sure folks already thought of all this in the extensive studies that have already been performed by the professionals.

[May Day 10]

nobody will attend a 3rd rate bowl game in Buffalo between Toledo and Appalachian State.  MAC Championship game too draws very small 15k? and I dont see them prying it from centrally-located Detroit in a league that has major Michigan/Ohio bias.

 

Can have 250 monster truck rallies