EDIT: Total cost to taxpayers? Bills select sports firm to represent ownership in building new open air stadium in OP, targeted for 2025

[Buffalo716]

51 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I know they sold 716 to Southern Tier Brewing 

That's basically because 716 was closed during the whole covid and they were bleeding money

 

He's a businessman and his oil has been hurting.. got a good offer he couldn't refuse 

 

And I think he still owns the building.. he just rents it out to them

Edited June 20, 2021 by Buffalo716

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

I would definitely go dome which will put the cost of the stadium at 2-3 billion.

 

Retractable roof will be too expensive.

 

Also PSL's will not be enough to cover the cost as you will only get 200m-300m from them.

 

Most of the cost will come from tax hikes to the citizens of Buffalo. Keep in mind that people have to vote yes to tax hikes and many will not.

 

I have followed closely the funding of the Chargers and Falcons stadiums.

 

In both cases, tax hikes were voted down and the owners threatened to move the team.

 

In Chargers case the team was moved because of repeated no votes to tax hikes. The City of Atlanta and the county eventually voted for tax hikes but only to the rental car and hotel and motel tax. This was sold as out of towners paying the tax not the locals. This works because the Atlanta airport is a major international hub with over a 100 million

travelers per year.

 

If citizens of Buffalo vote down the tax hike watch Pegula threaten to move the team as leverage. 

 

It's going to get interesting folks.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by JakeFrommStateFarm

[May Day 10]

716 was poorly run.  Lots of potential but it fell on its face for the most part.  It's rare I ever heard anyone rave about it, or even have anything other than complaints.  I'm very easy to please and they were about 0 for 3 for me.  

 

It's to the point that we considered Labatt house once and decided not to because it was a pegula operation and probably sub-par.  

 

Southern Tier will show how to run that kind of thing the right way.  

Edited June 20, 2021 by May Day 10

[mjd1001]

0 for 2 with us.  Wasn't terrible, but overall experience was average to below-average both times.

 

So much potential, hopefully the new place will be an improvement.

[BillnutinHouston]

3 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I know they sold 716 to Southern Tier Brewing 

 

Ok thanks.  I missed that.

 

Hopefully the Pegs family has gotten all the "diversification" out of their system and they can focus on their core businesses (the teams).  

[loyal2dagame]

5 hours ago, driddles said:

Would that mean the bus lot, lot 3 and lot 4, become part of the construction/stadium land?  

Yes,  but the ECC land has plenty of space to set up temp lots for those purposes

[TSNBDSC]

I only want one thing ... red end zones 

[Just Jack]

Just thought of this, with so many people wanting a dome/roof, it wouldn't be that difficult for an engineering firm to add extra structure to the new stadium, in case a dome/roof is added years down the road. 

[Preds]

3 hours ago, May Day 10 said:

716 was poorly run.  Lots of potential but it fell on its face for the most part.  It's rare I ever heard anyone rave about it, or even have anything other than complaints.  I'm very easy to please and they were about 0 for 3 for me.  

 

It's to the point that we considered Labatt house once and decided not to because it was a pegula operation and probably sub-par.  

 

Southern Tier will show how to run that kind of thing the right way.  

Both 716 and Labatt House were/are run by Delaware North.  That's why the both suck(ed).

[cba fan]

On 6/18/2021 at 5:16 PM, GETTOTHE50 said:

Not necessarily true. Petco Park in SD helped the surrounding area tremendously. They had a great plan for integrating the stadium with the community. I recommend for anyone to read that plan who has an interest in sports business or development 

ty yes done right it helps.

MLB and NFL totally diff though. Baseball aprox over 82 dates. NFL approx 10 or 12.

 

And for all the naysayers who say it does not pay out economically, forget that that is old think when public money paid for all or most of all new stadium costs. Not anymore. Vast majority of new stadiums are now private financed. MetLife in NJ 100% private finance. SOFI in LA also.

 

And that money pit that Jerry built....lol...not so fast....it all worked out.....https://www.hksinc.com/our-news/articles/ten-years-later-att-stadium-remains-golden-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/

Edited June 21, 2021 by cba fan

[Locomark]

The #1 thing is to design the stadium to be a loud echo chamber like they did in Seattle. Our main advantage IS NOT our weather. IT IS OUR CROWD!!  One requirement needs be to get our acoustics to a huge decibel level!! 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Locomark

[Patience]

1 hour ago, Locomark said:

The #1 thing is to design the stadium to be a loud echo chamber like they did in Seattle. Our main advantage IS NOT our weather. IT IS OUR CROWD!!  One requirement needs be to get our acoustics to a huge decibel level!! 

 

That's exactly why I want a version of their stadium in Orchard Park next.  

[RyanC883]

I don't get the point of an open-air stadium in the current location.  I've been to a number of other NFL stadiums, ours is comparable.  Replacing it with another open air stadium in the same location does nothing, IMO.  Build a dome that only seats 55-65K.  

[Locomark]

7 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I would definitely go dome which will put the cost of the stadium at 2-3 billion.

 

Retractable roof will be too expensive.

 

Also PSL's will not be enough to cover the cost as you will only get 200m-300m from them.

 

Most of the cost will come from tax hikes to the citizens of Buffalo. Keep in mind that people have to vote yes to tax hikes and many will not.

 

I have followed closely the funding of the Chargers and Falcons stadiums.

 

In both cases, tax hikes were voted down and the owners threatened to move the team.

 

In Chargers case the team was moved because of repeated no votes to tax hikes. The City of Atlanta and the county eventually voted for tax hikes but only to the rental car and hotel and motel tax. This was sold as out of towners paying the tax not the locals. This works because the Atlanta airport is a major international hub with over a 100 million

travelers per year.

 

If citizens of Buffalo vote down the tax hike watch Pegula threaten to move the team as leverage. 

 

It's going to get interesting folks.

 

 

I understand up to 2% of your WNY current sales taxes funds NYC subways so maybe 1% could come back to fund a stadium? Let NYC create a tourism tax to cover the shortfall.  Jake, This may be less taxpayer money than you think. It could be as low as 15-25% of the total cost. Actually keeping it in OP keeps costs down because you already have a ready footprint there and the practice fields, Adpro, and some of the parking can all stay intact. Some of the cost will come from deferred state revenue like slices of future stadium property taxation, rent, parking / ticket %, etc. It’s not just as simple as a taxpayer increase.  Pegula is the 8th richest owner in the league. He is working with Jerry’s firm. He’s another energy guy who can easily partner with him and help him gain some private funding or even help pressure the league and state to do more. They said they were studying the Steelers model where they didn’t have PSLs, so they aren’t going to treat Buffalo like a big city market when it comes to pricing. It’s will be over 50 years with this stadium, just enjoy its very overdue replacement! 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Locomark

[nucci]

6 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

I don't get the point of an open-air stadium in the current location.  I've been to a number of other NFL stadiums, ours is comparable.  Replacing it with another open air stadium in the same location does nothing, IMO.  Build a dome that only seats 55-65K.  

 

Just now, nucci said:

55k seats? that's a bit low. Lose a lot of revenue with so few seats plus a lot fans would not be able to attend. There is no longer a blackout rules so fewer seats makes so sense......or dollars

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by nucci

[Dirtyd415]

9 hours ago, cba fan said:

 

And that money pit that Jerry built....lol...not so fast....it all worked out.....https://www.hksinc.com/our-news/articles/ten-years-later-att-stadium-remains-golden-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/

This article is a fluff piece put out by the firm that designed AT&T stadium

[RiotAct]

10 hours ago, Preds said:

Both 716 and Labatt House were/are run by Delaware North.  That's why the both suck(ed).

really?  I didn’t know that.  I enjoyed both when I went in 2018 and 2019 respectively. (Only had drinks at the latter, though)

[YoloinOhio]

9 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

really?  I didn’t know that.  I enjoyed both when I went in 2018 and 2019 respectively. (Only had drinks at the latter, though)

I always liked going to 716 as well. Never had any issues 

[SoCal Deek]

11 hours ago, Just Jack said:

Just thought of this, with so many people wanting a dome/roof, it wouldn't be that difficult for an engineering firm to add extra structure to the new stadium, in case a dome/roof is added years down the road. 

The answer is yes, it’s quite possible. A few things to keep in mind though: 
 

First, for the stadium to be ‘easily’ retrofitted with a dome it means the upper deck will completely encircle the lower deck. One of the best things about Rich Stadium is the open end zones and the large sideline stands. You’ll lose that during the years  you’ll be waiting for the dome.

 

Second, other than Miami where they came back and added the roof, it’s hardly ever done. The stadium you’ll be covering will no longer be new (it’ll be tens years old at a minimum) and many will scream at the additional investment. The roof’s best done when the original construction ‘iron is hot’.

 

Finally, building codes change regularly so it’s rare that the previously installed foundations can actually be used. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[PromoTheRobot]

11 hours ago, Just Jack said:

Just thought of this, with so many people wanting a dome/roof, it wouldn't be that difficult for an engineering firm to add extra structure to the new stadium, in case a dome/roof is added years down the road. 

 

Well I'm no architect but I have to imagine a lot hinges on the stadium footprint.

 

One of the big reasons the original Rich Stadium only cost $23MM to build in 1973 was most of the stadium was built in the ground. The result was a wide bowl. Great for fan views but not good if you want to put a roof on.

 

If they did want to put a roof on later they would have to limit the footprint. It would have to be a taller, narrower structure with stacked decks, like Foxboro, which was built totally above ground. 

 

One of the big drivers of building in OP again could be, again, the cost of a stadium partially built into the ground. If they replicate that Rich Stadium template, they'll save money upfront but will make it that much more difficult to cover it later.

Edited June 21, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Well I'm no architect but I have to imagine a lot hinges on the stadium footprint.

 

One of the big reasons the original Rich Stadium only cost $23MM to build in 1973 was most of the stadium was built in the ground. The result was a wide bowl. Great for fan views but not good if you want to put a roof on.

 

If they did want to put a roof on later they would have to limit the footprint. It would have to be a taller, narrower structure with stacked decks, like Foxboro, which was built totally above ground. 

 

One of the big drivers of building in OP again could be, again, the cost of a stadium partially built into the ground. If they replicate that Rich Stadium template, they'll save money upfront but will make it that much difficult to cover it later.

I am an architect, and you’re mostly correct! 👍

[haroldwaide]

I've been thinking and its my belief that the proposal that is being leaked is a dummy proposal.  Get the fan base upset about the team playing elsewhere for two years during construction ( mentioning playing in toronto is a great way to do that ) and then say "you know, for a few hundred million dollars more we COULD do this instead..." And then unveil their true stadium proposal...

[PromoTheRobot]

14 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I am an architect, and you’re mostly correct! 👍

 

So let me ask you this. Could they get creative and come up with a plan that allows both? Lower cost being in the ground but with support points that allow a roof later?

 

One idea I had was a "cloverleaf" design. Each seating section, both sidelines and endzones, are distinct, separated by supports in the corners. You wind up losing most of your seating in the corners, or maybe create areas with obstructed views. (Could be used for concession areas.)

 

I got the idea seeing the Danish soccer stadium in Copenhagen. The Alamodome in San Antonio used the same plan.

 

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[nucci]

To me the most important thing is to limit the wind inside the stadium.

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

So let me ask you this. Could they get creative and come up with a plan that allows both? Lower cost being in the ground but with support points that allow a roof later?

 

One idea I had was a "cloverleaf" design. Each seating section, both sidelines and endzones, are distinct, separated by supports in the corners. You wind up losing most of your seating in the corners, or maybe create areas with obstructed views. (Could be used for concession areas.)

 

I got the idea seeing the Danish soccer stadium in Copenhagen. The Alamodome in San Antonio used the same plan.

 

 

Building the stadium into the ground saves tons of money because the lower bowl is nothing more than a slab on grade structure. There are limits though to the depth because of the natural water table on the site. You can only go so deep. The new Los Angeles stadium was built into the ground due to height constraints from nearby LAX airport. The real cost issue in truly enclosing an air conditioned dome is keeping the perimeter profile of the upper deck relatively uniform, otherwise you end up with large window walls like in Minnesota (which look great but are very costly...and there’s nothing to look at out the window in Orchard Park). Interestingly, LA is not an enclosed dome but in reality just a big umbrella. There’s no heating or cooling required, due to the temperate climate. So remember, we’ve not even scratched the surface of costs related to a heating and cooling system for a facility of this large volume. 

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Building the stadium into the ground saves tons of money because the lower bowl is nothing more than a slab on grade structure. There are limits though to the depth because of the natural water table on the site. You can only go so deep. The new Los Angeles stadium was built into the ground due to height constraints from nearby LAX airport. The real cost issue in truly enclosing an air conditioned dome is keeping the perimeter profile of the upper deck relatively uniform, otherwise you end up with large window walls like in Minnesota (which look great but are very costly...and there’s nothing to look at out the window in Orchard Park). Interestingly, LA is not an enclosed dome but in reality just a big umbrella. There’s no heating or cooling required, due to the temperate climate. So remember, we’ve not even scratched the surface of costs related to a heating and cooling system for a facility of this large volume. 

 

This is an interesting discussion.  How would (or would) geothermal assist in heating/cooling if a significant part of the new stadium is below grade?  

 

I’ll add that my guess is that the water table wouldn’t be too much of an issue if the new stadium is build either close to the west side of Abbott or on the SE corner of Abbott and Southwestern.  The existing stadium is on a hill, and the west side of Abbott is similarly sort of high.  Things start to slope a bit down as one gets closer to ECC academic buildings and the intersection of 20A/20/McKinley.  

[Putin]

On 6/18/2021 at 12:17 PM, nucci said:

not yet

when would people go to these shops and restaurants?

the tables breaking Bills mafia crowd will hit those shops and restaurants after tailgating  as soon as all alcohol is consumed !!! 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Putin

[SoCal Deek]

53 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

 

This is an interesting discussion.  How would (or would) geothermal assist in heating/cooling if a significant part of the new stadium is below grade?  

 

I’ll add that my guess is that the water table wouldn’t be too much of an issue if the new stadium is build either close to the west side of Abbott or on the SE corner of Abbott and Southwestern.  The existing stadium is on a hill, and the west side of Abbott is similarly sort of high.  Things start to slope a bit down as one gets closer to ECC academic buildings and the intersection of 20A/20/McKinley.  

The water table is not as impacted by the slopes you mention. It has a lot to do with makeup of the soil directly under the construction site, but to a certain point you are correct.

With regard to geothermal, I have to admit I have no idea if it’s been tried on a facility of this large of a scale. In general, sustainable practices can offer an assist to traditional sources but they rarely supply the entire facility. However, with a stadium only open a few dates a year it’s possible to use the down days to create power that can be sold back to the ‘grid’. 

[May Day 10]

I wonder if they got this Jerry Jones firm on-board to be the bad guy.  

 

I always thought it would be a very awkward situation with pegula and his/their whole persona of being unquestionably committed to Buffalo and they seem to always want to be liked by the fans and community (in fact, Terry said to his people that was his primary goal when he first bought the Sabres)

 

So it would be weird for the Pegulas to play any sort of hardball in these negotiations, and I wonder if the State would really take advantage of that, Im pretty sure Polancarz/EC will/would.

 

So they got this firm to come in and lob the threats and all that.  

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

I wonder if they got this Jerry Jones firm on-board to be the bad guy.  

 

I always thought it would be a very awkward situation with pegula and his/their whole persona of being unquestionably committed to Buffalo and they seem to always want to be liked by the fans and community (in fact, Terry said to his people that was his primary goal when he first bought the Sabres)

 

So it would be weird for the Pegulas to play any sort of hardball in these negotiations, and I wonder if the State would really take advantage of that, Im pretty sure Polancarz/EC will/would.

 

So they got this firm to come in and lob the threats and all that.  

 

Good cop/a**hole cop?

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The water table is not as impacted by the slopes you mention. It has a lot to do with makeup of the soil directly under the construction site, but to a certain point you are correct.

With regard to geothermal, I have to admit I have no idea if it’s been tried on a facility of this large of a scale. In general, sustainable practices can offer an assist to traditional sources but they rarely supply the entire facility. However, with a stadium only open a few dates a year it’s possible to use the down days to create power that can be sold back to the ‘grid’. 

 

Good point on the water table.  And good knowledge, too.  What i was—very inartfully trying to get at—was that, as a neophyte in this area, I figured that if “they” could dig at the current stadium site, there might not be too much of an issue digging a few hundred yards west on the other side of Abbott.  

[billsfan89]

If there is a 1-2 year gap in the stadium lease vs. when a new stadium opens up I suspect they will just extend the lease 1-2 years. Simple solution. Hopefully the Bills keep the open air stadium. 

[716er]

3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

If there is a 1-2 year gap in the stadium lease vs. when a new stadium opens up I suspect they will just extend the lease 1-2 years. Simple solution. Hopefully the Bills keep the open air stadium. 

From what I have read they’ll need to destroy the Ralph before they break ground on the new stadium as it’ll be in roughly the same spot.

 

Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

Edited June 21, 2021 by 716er

[PromoTheRobot]

31 minutes ago, 716er said:

From what I have read they’ll need to destroy the Ralph before they break ground on the new stadium as it’ll be in roughly the same spot.

 

Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

 

That seems to be the suggestion but does it have to be? Several other stadium projects were built side by side (Philly & Foxboro) Why can't they do that in OP?

 

[Ned Flanders]

5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

That seems to be the suggestion but does it have to be? Several other stadium projects were built side by side (Philly & Foxboro) Why can't they do that in OP?

 

May want to start buying stock in Hammer Lot Properties, LLC.

[RyanC883]

7 hours ago, nucci said:

 

 

 

a dome is expensive, to cut some cost, cut some seats.  If the team/league needs more revenue per seat, then 65K would easily clear the threshold, and being in a dome would provide all season demand.  I don't think making a new outdoor stadium is going to do anything to increase the value to an average game attendee.  Unless it's smaller to increase the price per seat/margin, it won't make any more money, IMO.  

[foreboding]

On 6/18/2021 at 12:59 PM, BornAgainBillsFan said:

If this were a legal case, with Goodell as the judge and Jones as an attorney, Jones would be asked to recuse himself due to a conflict of interest.

 

Why is that not happening now?

 

Let's just win the Super Bowl. Then this frilly stuff will take care of itself.

Legal?? This is planning and fabricating a building...unless Jerry builds secret cameras into the stadium...I know having an experienced firm is a smart idea. Why wouldn't you want the guy that built Jerry-World to help?

Edited June 21, 2021 by foreboding

[LabattBlue]

Each passing day since this thread was started, I shake my head more and more wondering what led them to an open air stadium.  IMO...such a big mistake.  

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, BTB said:

Each passing day since this thread was started, I shake my head more and more wondering what led them to an open air stadium.  IMO...such a big mistake.  

 

Nothing is decided yet. Not even close.

 

IMO, this is all negotiating through the media with the city.

 

"We'll just stay in OP, AND move the team away for a year or two. Unless we can get a deal done downtown..."

[nucci]

26 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Nothing is decided yet. Not even close.

 

IMO, this is all negotiating through the media with the city.

 

"We'll just stay in OP, AND move the team away for a year or two. Unless we can get a deal done downtown..."

Agreed, No way Bills are moving away for a couple of seasons while stadium is being built