Why Mahomes is Mahomes

[Figster]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

What makes Mahomes an unusual talent and therefore special is that much like a short stop he can throw the ball with accuracy from almost any platform. It frustrates defenses to no end. Just when they think they have him trapped, he tosses, or fires the ball to a receiver who just a split second ago was covered. Most other QBs are typically running for their lives by that point.

 Doing it with a football shows amazing athleticism and arm strength IMO.

[Billl]

18 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

A tiny fraction of his passes are these trick passes.  Those don't make him the greatest passer by far in the history of the NFL.

 

He has yet to lead the league in passing yards.  Brees did it 3 years in a row and 8 times total, twice passing 5200 yards and 4 times of the 8 were over 5000 yards.

 

Marino, in his 1st year as full time starter (also his 2nd year in the league), he threw for 5084 yards and 48 TDs.  He made the PB his first 5 seasons in the league and was an All Pro in years 2,3,4.   In their first 3 years as starter, they both threw for just under 14,000 yards, Marino 122 TDs and Mahomes 114.  This was 37 years ago.........

 

 

Mahomes is a great passer on a team that passes a lot to a bunch of very good receivers.  The best passer ever (and not even close)?  Not yet...

 

 

4 seasons into his career, Brees had 56 TDs and 38 INTs.  Mahomes has 114 and 24.  He’s also won as many MVPs, Super Bowls, and conference championships as Brees and Marino had in his entire careers combined.  If he wins on Sunday, he could retire and be a first ballot HOFer after only 3 seasons as a starter.

 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Billl said:

4 seasons into his career, Brees had 56 TDs and 38 INTs.  Mahomes has 114 and 24.  He’s also won as many MVPs, Super Bowls, and conference championships as Brees and Marino had in his entire careers combined.  If he wins on Sunday, he could retire and be a first ballot HOFer after only 3 seasons as a starter.

 

 

I'll remind you that the topic is who was the most gifted passer in the history of the NFL, by far, not who was a great QB on great teams.

 

Tom Brady had 2 SB MVPs in his first 3 years-----also not by far the greatest passer in the history of the NFL

[Billl]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I'll remind you that the topic is who was the most gifted passer in the history of the NFL, by far, not who was a great QB on great teams.

 

Tom Brady had 2 SB MVPs in his first 3 years-----also not by far the greatest passer in the history of the NFL

He also had 69 TDs and 38 INTs in his first 3 seasons.  He had 6 TDs and 3 INTs in the postseason.  Mahomes is at 17 and 2 with another game to play. 

[Mr. WEO]

12 minutes ago, Billl said:

He also had 69 TDs and 38 INTs in his first 3 seasons.  He had 6 TDs and 3 INTs in the postseason.  Mahomes is at 17 and 2 with another game to play. 

Yeah so awards don’t contribute to being the greatest passer in the history of the NFL

[zow2]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

 

Yeah, it's just sad that because they're going to be so good for so long, Bills fans will start hating him (if they don't already).

He already is notorious for being passed on by the Bills, so the more he wins, the more people think "could that have been us?" but to see him have an easy time against the Bills in-game, his success will just turn him into a Tom Brady-like heel to our fans.

Being a Texas Tech guy, I've always loved his attitude & watching him play. Talk about a guy who is used to throwing in the wind, it wasn't an issue for him in the insane winds in Lubbock. The thing that makes him really great is you can tell the stage is never too big. He doesn't feel that extra pressure. Not from the fans, the moment, the opponent, the hype, etc.

Glad Josh is coming into his own though. Even if he never reaches the same heights, a single Super Bowl win (or even appearance) would mean the world to me & other Bills fans. I'm still hoping it doesn't end up being a Wentz or Goff situation where he's great for a year, then falls back down to earth, but I have to think his work ethic is what will keep him improving instead of falling apart. Josh holds himself to a high standard, which means he will bust his ass to improve. 

I just hope the one thing he learns from Mahomes is to drown out the hype, the pressure & the moment, and just comfortably play his game. 

 

 

Some good takes there...but there is one thing i will dispute.   There's no way hard core Bills fans can honestly say to themselves they would've drafted Mahomes. 

I followed that 2017 pre-draft hype for months and there was almost no mention of the Bills having any interest in Patrick Mahomes.   It's very easy to say after he throws 50 TD's that sure we should've taken him.  but he was never even under consideration.  Now I definitely was on the Deshaun Watson train and recall hoping we would draft him, but Mahomes? no way.  That was a brilliant move by Andy Reid and he scooped everyone.  Here's one blurb about the KC Chiefs first round grade immediately after that draft from a major website.  Pretty laughable to read now.  Although they gave Chicago a D- for Trubisky so that was fairly accurate.

 

10. Patrick Mahomes, QB Texas Tech — Kansas City Chiefs (from Buffalo)

Grade: C-

Analysis: Calling Mahomes a project is a major understatement. He’s nowhere near ready to play in the NFL. And, honestly, he may never be. Between his inconsistent accuracy due to poor mechanics, his tendency to bail from clean pockets and his lack of field vision, he’s going to leave as many big plays on the field as he creates. This was a risky pick.

[Steptide]

I've had no problem with the cheifs in the last 3 years. They've been super fun to watch, other than when they beat the bills. It's their fan base that makes me dislike them at times. They can be the most obnoxious, arrogant fans and makes you want to root against them 

[Success]

I still say Allen has a higher ceiling.

 

So there.

 

[SirAndrew]

Mahomes definitely benefits from the talent around him. You can’t be an elite QB with no talent around you, but some of you need to watch what Alex Smith did with Hill and Kelce. It wasn’t bad, but you’ll fully appreciate that Mahomes is great.

Edited February 2, 2021 by SirAndrew

[Billl]

21 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Yeah so awards don’t contribute to being the greatest passer in the history of the NFL

So who’s the competition?  Marino is the closest comp in terms of pure numbers, but he couldn’t throw on the move the way Mahomes can, and he was a disaster in the postseason.  
 

In his career, Marino threw over 30 TDs twice.  In those seasons, he combined for 40 INTs.  Mahomes has also done it twice while throwing 18 total INTs.

 

I just don’t see how it’s even a debate when his numbers are orders of magnitude better than anyone’s ever have been.  Allen is a special thrower of the ball.  He’s thrown 67 TDs and 31 INTs.  Mahomes is at 114 and 24.

So yeah, awards don’t contribute to it so much as they acknowledge it.

[Southern_Bills]

23 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

 

Some good takes there...but there is one thing i will dispute.   There's no way hard core Bills fans can honestly say to themselves they would've drafted Mahomes. 

I followed that 2017 pre-draft hype for months and there was almost no mention of the Bills having any interest in Patrick Mahomes.   It's very easy to say after he throws 50 TD's that sure we should've taken him.  but he was never even under consideration.  Now I definitely was on the Deshaun Watson train and recall hoping we would draft him, but Mahomes? no way.  That was a brilliant move by Andy Reid and he scooped everyone.  Here's one blurb about the KC Chiefs first round grade immediately after that draft from a major website.  Pretty laughable to read now.  Although they gave Chicago a D- for Trubisky so that was fairly accurate.

 

10. Patrick Mahomes, QB Texas Tech — Kansas City Chiefs (from Buffalo)

Grade: C-

Analysis: Calling Mahomes a project is a major understatement. He’s nowhere near ready to play in the NFL. And, honestly, he may never be. Between his inconsistent accuracy due to poor mechanics, his tendency to bail from clean pockets and his lack of field vision, he’s going to leave as many big plays on the field as he creates. This was a risky pick.

Even Tyreek Hill was unimpressed during his first year in practice. Now everyone claims Mahomes was "the best QB workout before the draft ever" which is completely untrue.

 

That takes nothing away from Mahomes, he is in a really good situation so he will continue to prosper. I for one was stoked Buffalo traded down and got Tre, hindsight? Eh Buffalo did just fine.

 

They went from a playoff team with a game manager QB to a playoff team with a great QB, easy jump.

 

Buffalo went from a 9-7 lucky to get in the playoff team to a playoff team because they got better QB play, I think both QBs had a tremendous positive effect on their respective teams, the Chiefs just had more going when Mahomes got there.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

21 minutes ago, Billl said:

So who’s the competition?  Marino is the closest comp in terms of pure numbers, but he couldn’t throw on the move the way Mahomes can, and he was a disaster in the postseason.  
 

In his career, Marino threw over 30 TDs twice.  In those seasons, he combined for 40 INTs.  Mahomes has also done it twice while throwing 18 total INTs.

 

I just don’t see how it’s even a debate when his numbers are orders of magnitude better than anyone’s ever have been.  Allen is a special thrower of the ball.  He’s thrown 67 TDs and 31 INTs.  Mahomes is at 114 and 24.

So yeah, awards don’t contribute to it so much as they acknowledge it.

 
Marino and Brees best passers so far. P Manning is in the discussion.  Marino was doing this in his first few years like Mahomes—over 35 years ago when it was far more difficult to achieve such results.

 

 Maybe Mahomes can keep it up for a career, maybe he can’t (26 TDs in 14 games last year)  Right now he is reproducing what Marino did a long time ago on a better team in a much different era.  In 2011 3 QBs throw for at least 5200 yards and 39 TDs and 16 or fewer INTs—one of whom was Stafford in his first full season as starter!

 

To conclude after only 3 seasons that Mahomes is the best passer ever by far is...a bit premature, to be kind.

[Rc2catch]

Jeez Mahomes has some serious stalker level fans on here. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

So who’s the competition?  Marino is the closest comp in terms of pure numbers, but he couldn’t throw on the move the way Mahomes can, and he was a disaster in the postseason.  
 

In his career, Marino threw over 30 TDs twice.  In those seasons, he combined for 40 INTs.  Mahomes has also done it twice while throwing 18 total INTs.

 

I just don’t see how it’s even a debate when his numbers are orders of magnitude better than anyone’s ever have been.  Allen is a special thrower of the ball.  He’s thrown 67 TDs and 31 INTs.  Mahomes is at 114 and 24.

So yeah, awards don’t contribute to it so much as they acknowledge it.

You simply cannot compare qb stats from the 80s with stats today. Always look at the qb+ ratings in PFR, which measures like to like.

[transplantbillsfan]

Look, Mahomes is a fantastic player, but let's be real about this:

 

Mahomes is Mahomes largely because of system and the talent surrounding him.

 

And that's not a sleight on Mahomes.  Josh Allen improved so much this year because it was his 3rd year in the same system and we acquired Diggs.

 

Neither Mahomes nor Allen are "unicorns...." though I honestly think Allen might be one a little bit more purely for the combination of size and athleticism... but he has to get a few other things going better.  Hell, Brady isn't one.  All the people saying that "oh it was clearly Brady and not the Hoodie" are fooling themselves.  Arians turned that team over to Tom to let him essentially be the coach, and Brady learned everything he knows from New England.  And Brady had more talent around him than he EVER had in New England.

 

Can we please not forget that this same system that Mahomes is playing in saw Alex Smith throw for over 4,000 yards with 26 TDs and 5 INTs with a 104.7 Passer Rating in 15 games.  That was, in other words, Alex Smith's best statistical season of his career BY FAR!!!

 

Ya know why?  Alex Smith in 2017--the year before Mahomes took over--had Andy Reid as his coach and was also throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce.

 

Smith isn't a scrub, but that was a damn good year for a guy who's been "meh" for his whole career.

 

As long as Mahomes has Andy Reid especially along with Kelce and Hill, he'll look like one of the best 2 or 3 QBs in the league.

 

I say 2 or 3 because I really think Allen's comin!!!

 

That's why Mahomes is Mahomes.

Edited February 2, 2021 by transplantbillsfan

[eball]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's the most naturally gifted passer the NFL has ever seen and it's not really close.

 

I’ll take “ridiculously exaggerated opinions” for $1000, Alex. 

[MJS]

Mahomes is Mahomes because his daddy is Mahomes. Literally there is no other reason.

[Chicken Boo]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's the most naturally gifted passer the NFL has ever seen and it's not really close.    

 

 

There I disagree.  Aaron Rodgers has a quicker release, better ball placement and more velocity on his throws.

 

The only thing Mahomes does better is side arm throws and throwing back toward the middle of the field while scrambling to his right.

[Zerovoltz]

.....stardard box score stats........Mahomes checks that box.....but throw that out the window.....

 

If ever there was a stat that demonstrates what makes Mahomes special....what differentiates him from the others at the top.

 

Since Mahomes entered the league, his QBR on 3rd and 15 or LONGER, is 95.5  

The rest of the league averages......................6.   

 

A holding penalty, a delay of game, Offside...a big sack....they don't matter...they don't end drives like they do for other teams.

 

THAT stat is insane.

 

 

Also.  I want to address "the trade" AGAIN.

 

Let me set this up because some Bills fans kind of forget the circumstances of that offseason.  Going into that draft, the Pegulas had fired the HC, and had hired McDermott, but had not yet relieved Whaley of his duties and hired McBeane.  McDermott, a defensive minded coach, was on record as saying he wasn't going to draft a QB in 2017, with a lame duck GM, and without having the new GM evaluate QB's with him...so they'd all be on the same page.  The Bills were NOT going to draft a QB at 10 if they stayed in that spot.  

 

KC spent the weeks leading up to the draft trying to find trade partners in the top 10 and had been speaking to the Bills about moving up if conditions worked for both when the time came.  KC was helbent on Mahomes beforet he draft.

 

As it happend KC couldn't get a deal to move up at 5, and when it got to be pick 10, the Bills were willing to make the trade, and made it.

 

Lets assume for a minute that KC made the deal to go up to 5, they still draft Mahomes.  The Bills at 10, probably stay put and maybe they take Lattimore CB.  (the Saints took him one pick later at 11)  

 

2018 Rolls around, the Bills need a QB....they want Allen....maybe they have the ammo to get up to get him..or maybe not....but lets assume they make that work.

 

The Bills would still have Allen, and KC would still have Mahomes.  That TRADE was NOT a scenario of the Bills passing on Mahomes....they passed on all the QB's well before the draft started taht year. McD was NOT taking one in 2017.  It was NOT a trade of "if the Bills stay at 10, they take Mahomes, or we trade the pick away and KC takes Mahomes.  That is NOT what happened.

 

The Bills would likely be nearly the same squad....Lattimore instead of white...and probalby you don't draft Tre Edmunds.  

 

 

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's the most naturally gifted passer the NFL has ever seen and it's not really close.    

 

He also doesn't have any negative characteristics that could be his downfall.

 

If he stays healthy the top QB spot is his to lose for the next 10 years.

 

The greatest 'passer' in NFL history, to me, is Marino.  Deadly at every range, lightning release, and almost never took a sack in the age of the 7-step drop.   Mahomes is up there, though.  

[BillsFan692]

13 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

They have the best team in the NFL. Sure, Mahomes may very well be the future GOAT, but gosh darn that team is loaded. They can run, they can pass, their defense is loaded. Their coaching is so good that they squeeze every last drop of potential out of mid round, late round and even undrafted players. Very good everything.

Yeah well quite frankly before mahommes reid didnt win ***** and the alex smith chiefs while decent like most reid teams were nothing like they are now.

 

Reid won in Philly with McNabb but he wasnt in any goat talk. Mahommes has elevated him to new heights.

 

It almost be like giving mcd all credit for what josh has helped do around here.

 

Mahommes is spectacular there is no denying greatness

 

Mcd and Reid are both good coaches maybe mcd learned it from Reid but without a good QB u got nothing. You got first round playoff eliminations.

Edited February 2, 2021 by BillsFan692

[Ray Stonada]

There has never been a QB who looked close to what Mahomes has in their first 3 years starting: not just stats, but wins and clutch play.

 

On the other hand, there has never been a QB with the career accomplishments of Brady, not just stats but wins and clutch play. DOUBLE the Super Bowls of the all-time legends of the game. 

 

Interesting that Brady seems to recognize Mahomes' special status and has even since that first season. Last night, he compared him not to other QBs right now, but to his own greatest rival Peyton Manning.

 

After 9 days of being depressed about the AFCCG, I'm starting to look forward to seeing these guys go at it. Romo's right, it's unique.

 

PS I hope Josh will be in the convo in a few years but I can't pretend he is now.

[Ga boy]

9 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Look, Mahomes is a fantastic player, but let's be real about this:

 

Mahomes is Mahomes largely because of system and the talent surrounding him.

 

And that's not a sleight on Mahomes.  Josh Allen improved so much this year because it was his 3rd year in the same system and we acquired Diggs.

 

Neither Mahomes nor Allen are "unicorns...." though I honestly think Allen might be one a little bit more purely for the combination of size and athleticism... but he has to get a few other things going better.  Hell, Brady isn't one.  All the people saying that "oh it was clearly Brady and not the Hoodie" are fooling themselves.  Arians turned that team over to Tom to let him essentially be the coach, and Brady learned everything he knows from New England.  And Brady had more talent around him than he EVER had in New England.

 

Can we please not forget that this same system that Mahomes is playing in saw Alex Smith throw for over 4,000 yards with 26 TDs and 5 INTs with a 104.7 Passer Rating in 15 games.  That was, in other words, Alex Smith's best statistical season of his career BY FAR!!!

 

Ya know why?  Alex Smith in 2017--the year before Mahomes took over--had Andy Reid as his coach and was also throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce.

 

Smith isn't a scrub, but that was a damn good year for a guy who's been "meh" for his whole career.

 

As long as Mahomes has Andy Reid especially along with Kelce and Hill, he'll look like one of the best 2 or 3 QBs in the league.

 

I say 2 or 3 because I really think Allen's comin!!!

 

That's why Mahomes is Mahomes.

Mahomes has a better team than Marino ever had.  Can't really say who is better, but Mahomes runs the risk of getting a big hit.  Let's see how it plays out.  I hope Mahomes has a good run, and loses to Allen in 3-4 title games.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I don't know why I respect players that marry women they knew before they were famous. LeBron James did the same thing. 

 

I'm sure a lot of others did as well. 

[warrior9]

16 hours ago, JohnNord said:

You can say the same thing about just about anyone on their roster.  At this point in his career, he’s hardly a player teams need to game plan for.  Let Sammy Watkins beat a team, go ahead

I mean, he has..... I can’t remember if it was this year or last year but he did. He went off in a playoff game last year. He also scored a huge TD in the super bowl. 
 

When he’s healthy he’s dangerous, of course, that’s always been his Achilles heel

Edited February 2, 2021 by warrior9

[Ramza86]

Hes in a great situation and hes a great QB. Hes currently in reaping the benefits. 

 

They will have lots of success for many years to come.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

19 hours ago, Billl said:

Remember when #87 and #10 were on the team in 2017 and Alex Smith threw for a career high 26 TDs?  Mahomes threw 50 the next season and 28 of them were to players other than those 2 guys.  In fact only 3 were to players who didn’t play with Smith.  Any guesses who caught those other 3, Mr. Rib?

 

 

Expanding on this to include Allen.

 

Allen threw 37 TD's this year. I think we all agree he doesn't have two receiving threats on the same level as #87 and #10 of the Chiefs. He does have one in Diggs. Of Allen's 37 passing TD's 29 of them were to players other than Diggs. That's pretty similar to the 28 that Mahomes threw to players other than Kelce and Hill.

 

Mahomes threw an average of 11 each to Kecle and Hill. Let's say Allen has a second receiver on their skill level. I'll be conservative and say they add 8 more TD's to Allen's total since Diggs only totaled 8 himself rather than the 22 that Kelce and Hill combined for. That would put Allen at 45 passing TD's + 9 Rushing/Receiving for a total 54 total TD's which would be just shy of the all-time record and only behind Peyton and maybe Brady? Of course all this is hypothetical, could be lower or higher. What I do no, is Allen does have the skill and talent to put up these numbers. He's not a finished product yet but we do already see the ridiculous eye popping numbers. The way he started and finished the season showed us that. He just needs a little more consistency. 

 

As Zerovolts put it in another thread, and paraphrasing,  in each QB's first year starting Mahomes took over a Ferrari and drove it like an elite formula one race car driver. Allen took over a beater commuter car and drove it like a crazy taxi car driver. Move to year three for Allen and he upgrades to a Corvette and what do you know, he has an MVP level season. He's still not quite driving that Ferrari but he's doing a hell of a job with his new Corvette.

[BADOLBILZ]

13 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

You simply cannot compare qb stats from the 80s with stats today. Always look at the qb+ ratings in PFR, which measures like to like.

 

 

Yeah the context of what it took to be a QB has changed so much.    Mahomes is without doubt the most talented thrower of the football but in the era of Dan Marino and Jim Kelly you had to be able to take great punishment just to become a starting NFL QB.     For every Dan Marino there were plenty of Jeff George, Chris Chandler, Chris Miller, Jim Everett types with huge talent but more fragile frames or personalities.   Maybe Mahomes could have taken a beating,  but I seriously doubt it would have ever gotten that far.  More likely he would have done the far more sensible thing and stayed on the diamond where he had serious MLB potential.   

 

I've said it many times here.........when they legislated the violence out of the pocket and the middle of the field it greatly broadened the field of athletes that could play the QB position.    

[Logic]

22 hours ago, zow2 said:

Saw him in an interview, and he's talking about how cool it would be to be the repeat champs, etc..  He's excited for it.  He wasn't being cocky or arrogant, but he just has a confidence and swag about him.  The guy is not rattled whatsoever by the big stage and the big moment.  He knows going in that he will play well, it's not even a question.  That combined with his arm, athletic ability and QB IQ, is a pretty lethal combination.  

 

oh great.

 

Zerovoltz has a second account here. Didn’t even bother to have it start with a different letter.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, BringMetheHeadofLeonLett said:

The greatest 'passer' in NFL history, to me, is Marino.  Deadly at every range, lightning release, and almost never took a sack in the age of the 7-step drop.   Mahomes is up there, though.  

 

 

Marino was great but he was a statue though.    He simply couldn't make plays on the move like many of today's modern QB's.   I don't think Mahomes is a lesser pocket QB than Marino either.   Mahomes' ability to change speeds on his throws is amazing.   And it's effortless.  He makes throwing a football look like throwing a baseball.   It's not that easy.   

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

There I disagree.  Aaron Rodgers has a quicker release, better ball placement and more velocity on his throws.

 

The only thing Mahomes does better is side arm throws and throwing back toward the middle of the field while scrambling to his right.

 

 

Rodgers is great.    His release is quicker but as great as Rodgers is he doesn't have the command of the football that Mahomes has and the ability to make as many throws.   We've come to take it for granted but Mahomes changes speeds like nobody else.   Rodgers is amazing to watch but as you noted there is often too much velocity on throws.   That's the only way he can make those.  That's not a knock.......Mahomes is just unique in that regard at this point. 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

.....stardard box score stats........Mahomes checks that box.....but throw that out the window.....

 

If ever there was a stat that demonstrates what makes Mahomes special....what differentiates him from the others at the top.

 

Since Mahomes entered the league, his QBR on 3rd and 15 or LONGER, is 95.5  

The rest of the league averages......................6.   

 

A holding penalty, a delay of game, Offside...a big sack....they don't matter...they don't end drives like they do for other teams.

 

THAT stat is insane.

 

 

Also.  I want to address "the trade" AGAIN.

 

Let me set this up because some Bills fans kind of forget the circumstances of that offseason.  Going into that draft, the Pegulas had fired the HC, and had hired McDermott, but had not yet relieved Whaley of his duties and hired McBeane.  McDermott, a defensive minded coach, was on record as saying he wasn't going to draft a QB in 2017, with a lame duck GM, and without having the new GM evaluate QB's with him...so they'd all be on the same page.  The Bills were NOT going to draft a QB at 10 if they stayed in that spot.  

 

KC spent the weeks leading up to the draft trying to find trade partners in the top 10 and had been speaking to the Bills about moving up if conditions worked for both when the time came.  KC was helbent on Mahomes beforet he draft.

 

As it happend KC couldn't get a deal to move up at 5, and when it got to be pick 10, the Bills were willing to make the trade, and made it.

 

Lets assume for a minute that KC made the deal to go up to 5, they still draft Mahomes.  The Bills at 10, probably stay put and maybe they take Lattimore CB.  (the Saints took him one pick later at 11)  

 

2018 Rolls around, the Bills need a QB....they want Allen....maybe they have the ammo to get up to get him..or maybe not....but lets assume they make that work.

 

The Bills would still have Allen, and KC would still have Mahomes.  That TRADE was NOT a scenario of the Bills passing on Mahomes....they passed on all the QB's well before the draft started taht year. McD was NOT taking one in 2017.  It was NOT a trade of "if the Bills stay at 10, they take Mahomes, or we trade the pick away and KC takes Mahomes.  That is NOT what happened.

 

The Bills would likely be nearly the same squad....Lattimore instead of white...and probalby you don't draft Tre Edmunds.  

 

 

 

 

The highlighted is entirely false.    I've heard you state before that the Bills hired McDermott "right before the draft".   Wrong.   He was hired in early January like virtually every new HC and staff are.   Rex Ryan was fired in-season so it wasn't exactly a hurried hiring situation.   And to be clear, at no point before the 2017 draft had they indicated they would not be drafting a QB nor was it public knowledge that Whaley was a lame duck GM.

 

Those are all post-draft narratives.

 

The Bills made a series of poor decisions.........they should have just hired Beane with McDermott and gone to work on evaluating and drafting a QB...........like franchises normally do.    It never made any sense whatsoever to wait.   It made LESS sense for a perennial playoff team in KC with a respected QB to be pursuing a rookie QB than it did the Bills. 

[TheFunPolice]

I look forward to the GOAT talk in the years to come if Mahomes wins Sunday and keeps playing this way going forward. 

 

Reid will be in the GOAT conversation 100% for sure if the Chiefs go back to back and he coaches that team for another 5-7 years (he is 6 years younger than Belichick now) and picks up another 2-3 rings along the way. 

 

His system and schemes work, and have for 20+ years. Now he has a truly elite passer at QB for the first time ever. If he coaches another 6-7 years he will be in the top 3 winningest head coaches of all time, maybe even ahead of Belichick. 

 

How could Reid and Mahomes end up with 4 (for example) and be the GOATs?

 

Well, people compare Brady's 6 titles to Jordan's, as if there aren't 9 players in NBA history with more titles than Jordan. If GOAT is just about rings then Bill Russell is the GOAT of all GOATs.

 

11 rings in 13 seasons played. 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by TheFunPolice

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Marino was great but he was a statue though.    He simply couldn't make plays on the move like many of today's modern QB's.   I don't think Mahomes is a lesser pocket QB than Marino either.   Mahomes' ability to change speeds on his throws is amazing.   And it's effortless.  He makes throwing a football look like throwing a baseball.   It's not that easy.   

It's the 'not really close' part I was commenting on.  There's a lot of 'greatest ever' type commentary proclaimed about current players-it's out of whack with faded memories or no memory at all about just how amazing past players were.  The league was not scattered with, 'pretty good' players until just recently, it has had a bunch of amazing players, who played in a much grittier league to boot.  
 

Don't get me wrong, I frickin hate Marino haha, and there may have been better overall quarterbacks, but as a passer, it's hard to put anyone 'way' ahead of him.  He definitely lacked running ability, but his short-area awareness, quickness, and release made him nearly unsackable- check out the numbers.  

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, warrior9 said:

I mean, he has..... I can’t remember if it was this year or last year but he did. He went off in a playoff game last year. He also scored a huge TD in the super bowl. 
 

When he’s healthy he’s dangerous, of course, that’s always been his Achilles heel

When he’s healthy he’s a good 3rd option on a team with Travis Kelcie and Tyreek Hill.  Sammy never “went off” in a playoff game.  He did put up WR2 stats.  

 

2 catches for 76 yards against Houston 

7 catches for 114 yards and a TD in the AFC Championship game. 

5 catches for 98 yards in the Super Bowl.

 

Putting him on the same level as Kelcie or Hill is straight up goofy.

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Marino was great but he was a statue though.    He simply couldn't make plays on the move like many of today's modern QB's.   I don't think Mahomes is a lesser pocket QB than Marino either.   Mahomes' ability to change speeds on his throws is amazing.   And it's effortless.  He makes throwing a football look like throwing a baseball.   It's not that easy.   

On the 'statue' thing, Marino was no Deadsloe:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/11/12/remembering-dan-marinos-incredible-streak-of-759-passes-without-a-sack/

 

"

Dan Marino owns the NFL record for consecutive games and consecutive passes without a sack, and no other quarterback before or since has ever even been in the same ballpark. Marino got sacked on September 25, 1988 in Indianapolis. He then played 19 consecutive games without getting sacked. He wasn’t sacked again until October 29, 1989 in Buffalo. Between sacks, he threw an incredible 759 passes.

To throw 759 passes without getting sacked is such an insane record that it looks like a typo. The team that has allowed the fewest sacks this year is the Saints, and Drew Brees has been sacked nine times while throwing 304 passes. Marino threw two and a half times that many passes and wasn’t sacked even once.

Marino was well known for his quick release during his time as the Dolphins’ quarterback, and he could get the ball out so quickly that opposing defenses never stood a chance. For 19 straight games, no one could bring him down."

Can we please stop anointing every current player the greatest, please...

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

12 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

.....stardard box score stats........Mahomes checks that box.....but throw that out the window.....

 

If ever there was a stat that demonstrates what makes Mahomes special....what differentiates him from the others at the top.

 

Since Mahomes entered the league, his QBR on 3rd and 15 or LONGER, is 95.5  

The rest of the league averages......................6.   

 

A holding penalty, a delay of game, Offside...a big sack....they don't matter...they don't end drives like they do for other teams.

 

THAT stat is insane.

 

 

It's great you bring this up Zerovoltz. It's just another area where both Mahomes and Allen set themselves apart from their peers. I have not dug into Allen's efficiency's on 3rd and 15+, so I don't know what those numbers are, but I have started two threads in the past on Allen's efficiency's on 3rd and 10+. Allen has been among the leagues best in those situations for two straight seasons.

 

2020 Stats:

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/230202-allen-once-again-leading-the-lead-in-3rd-and-10/

 

2019 Stats:

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/221842-josh-allen-leading-the-way-on-3rd-and-10/

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

17 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

Mahomes definitely benefits from the talent around him. You can’t be an elite QB with no talent around you, but some of you need to watch what Alex Smith did with Hill and Kelce. It wasn’t bad, but you’ll fully appreciate that Mahomes is great.

 

Nobody hear is denying that Mahomes isn't great. I don't think. And yes, every great QB needs great weapons. Allen is proof of this. Diggs absolutely helped Allen get to that elite top 5 QB level.

 

It's tricky to compare QB's to each other when their situations are so vastly different. Smith is brought up in this discussion simply as another tool to explain the difference in situation. It's a fact that Smith had a career year with the same key guys that Mahomes also had a career year with the following year. 

 

Has Mahomes peaked? Have we seen the best of Mahomes? Probably not. But so far that is true. It's unlikely he will have better weapons then he has had the last three years but I'd still guess he'll likely eventually have a better season than his 2018 season. Of course even that could be debated. Will that mean a better QBR? Better passer rating? More TD's? More yards? Etc.

 

Looking at Allen, we clearly see a QB that has not peaked. We see at least more opportunity for the skill position players to get better compared to the Chiefs. And really just a consistent growth out of Allen that should lead us to believe the best is yet to come.

 

Mahomes:

2018 Games 2-9     115.3 rating

2018 Games 10-17  112.4 rating

2019 Games 18-24  113.1 rating

2019 Games 25-31  97.6 rating

2020 Games 32-39 115.0 rating

2020 Games 40-46 101.9 rating

 

Allen:

2018 Games 1-6      61.8 rating

2018 Games 7-12    72.6 rating

2019 Games 13-20  82.9 rating

2019 Games 21-27  88.8 rating

2020 Games 29-36 102.4 rating

2020 Games 40-46 111.6 rating

2021 ???

[Billl]

50 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

When he’s healthy he’s a good 3rd option on a team with Travis Kelcie and Tyreek Hill.  Sammy never “went off” in a playoff game.  He did put up WR2 stats.  

 

2 catches for 76 yards against Houston 

7 catches for 114 yards and a TD in the AFC Championship game. 

5 catches for 98 yards in the Super Bowl.

 

Putting him on the same level as Kelcie or Hill is straight up goofy.

He’s not Kelce nor Hill, but he had more receiving yards in the postseason than anyone else.  He had 14 receptions on 18 targets for an average of 16 yards every time they threw him the ball.  At that pace, he’d have had 1,536 yards over a full season.  That’s exactly 1 more than Diggs had this year.  Hardly “WR2 stats”.

[LABILLBACKER]

On 2/1/2021 at 11:45 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's the most naturally gifted passer the NFL has ever seen and it's not really close.    

 

He also doesn't have any negative characteristics that could be his downfall.

 

If he stays healthy the top QB spot is his to lose for the next 10 years.

 

I don't know. That hairdo is a little wacky.