Old Coot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Could someone with access to the all-22 video and some knowledge of defense principles please explain why our D gave Kelce a free release off the line on almost every play? Is it because we did not want to spare a LB to do that? If we are in Cover 2 (with presumably one S over the top of Hill) and our CB's covering their WR's that leaves only our 3 LBs if we rush 4 DL. Were we so concerned about KC's running game? Romo suggested having a DE jam Kelce at the line and then rush. What is the down side to that? I realize that this is Monday morning QB'ing but I am mystified at Frazier's decision not to use the obvious technique of jamming Kelce, especially after he lit use up. 3 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, Old Coot said: Could someone with access to the all-22 video and some knowledge of defense principles please explain why our D gave Kelce a free release off the line on almost every play? Is it because we did not want to spare a LB to do that? If we are in Cover 2 (with presumably one S over the top of Hill) and our CB's covering their WR's that leaves only our 3 LBs if we rush 4 DL. Were we so concerned about KC's running game? Romo suggested having a DE jam Kelce at the line and then rush. What is the down side to that? I realize that this is Monday morning QB'ing but I am mystified at Frazier's decision not to use the obvious technique of jamming Kelce, especially after he lit use up. i’m curious what you think that would have ultimately accomplished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 I thought Frazier was awful again tonight. He literally did the opposite of Bill belichick. Let their two best players crush them. Inexcusable really 19 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 What coverage? 5 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, Old Coot said: Could someone with access to the all-22 video and some knowledge of defense principles please explain why our D gave Kelce a free release off the line on almost every play? Is it because we did not want to spare a LB to do that? If we are in Cover 2 (with presumably one S over the top of Hill) and our CB's covering their WR's that leaves only our 3 LBs if we rush 4 DL. Were we so concerned about KC's running game? Romo suggested having a DE jam Kelce at the line and then rush. What is the down side to that? I realize that this is Monday morning QB'ing but I am mystified at Frazier's decision not to use the obvious technique of jamming Kelce, especially after he lit use up. i watched one of Kollman’s videos this week where he said you absolutely have to jam Kelce at the line. If you give him a free release, he will kill you. in fact, he pointed to the Saints/chiefs game where the DE’s jammed Kelce. It worked. It basically slows him up enough to get Mahomes to look off of him a little quicker and go elsewhere with the ball. I was surprised that we gave Kelce a free release the entire game. 4 1 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Coot Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 I'm no expert on D but jamming a WR-type TE like Kelce at the line with an LB is a common technique for disrupting the TE's patterns and timing with the OB. Kelce makes his living with intermediate over the middle catches. This is no surprise. It may be that Mahomes will find him anyway but it seems that we could have tried jamming when our planned coverage did not prevent him from getting multiple catches. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, Old Coot said: Could someone with access to the all-22 video and some knowledge of defense principles please explain why our D gave Kelce a free release off the line on almost every play? Is it because we did not want to spare a LB to do that? If we are in Cover 2 (with presumably one S over the top of Hill) and our CB's covering their WR's that leaves only our 3 LBs if we rush 4 DL. Were we so concerned about KC's running game? Romo suggested having a DE jam Kelce at the line and then rush. What is the down side to that? I realize that this is Monday morning QB'ing but I am mystified at Frazier's decision not to use the obvious technique of jamming Kelce, especially after he lit use up. Conservative coaching, they played not to lose or give up the big play. Romo even suggested bringing more pressure, Mahomes had a clean jersey tonight and Allen took a beating. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) Milano was sent on blitz so many times and we STILL got zero pressure. We blitzed 6 (Milano & Edmunds) a few times and Mahomes still had all day and picked us apart. Why wasn’t Milano on Kelce all night? Edited January 25, 2021 by UConn James 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLEN1QB Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 8 minutes ago, SDS said: i’m curious what you think that would have ultimately accomplished? Oh I don't know possibly a win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Coot Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: He literally did the opposite of Bill belichick. Let their two best players crush them. Inexcusable really Well said. Belichick takes away what you do best. We certainly did not take away Kelce. As for Hill, he was quiet at the beginning of the game so we may have been double teaming him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, SDS said: i’m curious what you think that would have ultimately accomplished? Disrupted the timing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: I thought Frazier was awful again tonight. He literally did the opposite of Bill belichick. Let their two best players crush them. Inexcusable really Frazier has been a bust most of season and did next to nothing, other then last week our defence has been very average all season 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Solomon Grundy said: Disrupted the timing? in the game that you just watched do you think precise timing was involved between those two? 2 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said: Frazier has been a bust most of season and did next to nothing, other then last week our defence has been very average all season could it be because of the personnel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Niagara Dude said: Frazier has been a bust most of season and did next to nothing, other then last week our defence has been very average all season He’s too conservative for my liking. Loves to keep everything in front of his defences, but yet still let’s their best players torch them 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralonzo Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 19 minutes ago, Old Coot said: Decision on Kelce Coverage I believe that was a "no." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, SDS said: in the game that you just watched do you think precise timing was involved between those two? could it be because of the personnel? I’ll play along. 2nd and 13 for the chiefs Bills are down 2 scores in the 3rd quarter. Matchup: 1 on 1 milano vs Kelce on a soft man to man coverage. 10 yard gain to set up 3rd and short which they ultimately convert . Does that make any sense at all? Just so many instances where he he didn’t give the players a chance to win IMO. if you are going to lose, at least go down throwing a punch Edited January 25, 2021 by BillsFan130 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan boy '92 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 This is the defense that McD knows. He was hired as a zone defense coach and that's what he puts on the field. His style of d requires mistakes to be made by the offense/qb. This may work against most, but competition like Mahomes will beat this every time. The tight man on man that was run on us tonight with double teams, completely stifled our receivers. It was aggresive, Mcd's zone was passive and the result is what we saw tonight. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: I’ll play along. 2nd and 13 for the chiefs Bills are down 2 scores in the 3rd quarter. Matchup: 1 on 1 milano vs Kelce on a soft man to man coverage. 10 yard gain to set up 3rd and short which they ultimately convert . Does that make any sense at all? Just so many instances where he he didn’t give the players a chance to win IMO. if you are going to lose, at least go down throwing a punch Just stop. The Chiefs are 25-1 the last 26 games. You think it’s because it’s a lack of logic? You just need to put people in the right position and it just happens? why don’t you go ahead and make yourself a cool million dollars and let the NFL know how you stop the Kansas City Chiefs. Just give them your logic tree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieldGeneral Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Zone will never work against KC unless you have pressure up front. This game was lost way before the 9-0 lead even materialized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPT Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, SDS said: Just stop. The Chiefs are 25-1 the last 26 games. You think it’s because it’s a lack of logic? You just need to put people in the right position and it just happens? why don’t you go ahead and make yourself a cool million dollars and let the NFL know how you stop the Kansas City Chiefs. Just give them your logic tree. They are 25-1 because nobody can stop Mahomes throwing to Kelce and Hill. Are you suggesting that not even attempting to stop them was the right decision? Like reverse psychology maybe? They did literally nothing to address the Chiefs' biggest weapons and, shockingly, it didn't work. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that they should have tried something rather than letting Kelce and Hill roll up an uncontested 300 yards. Edited January 25, 2021 by MPT 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullim4 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 24 minutes ago, SDS said: Just stop. The Chiefs are 25-1 the last 26 games. You think it’s because it’s a lack of logic? You just need to put people in the right position and it just happens? why don’t you go ahead and make yourself a cool million dollars and let the NFL know how you stop the Kansas City Chiefs. Just give them your logic tree. I don't think that's fair - McD and Frazier are not above criticism and they will be the first people to tell you that. The Bills got killed by Kelce and Hill the entire game and Kelce in particular was wide open constantly in the second half. They accounted for 290 of 325 yards of passing from Mahomes. After the first half, where Kelce just killed you, it would seem to make sense to adjust to that and take him away. Sell out and make the Chiefs beat you on the ground or with other receivers. This is how Belichick typically game plans on defense -- make a team win in a different way -- and it usually works. The CBS sideline reporter mentioned that McD was keeping the same game plan for the second half. Anyone watching that game must've thought he was either (1) lying, or (2) out of his mind. Significant changes needed to be made on defense after giving up 21 points in the second quarter, and they failed to do so. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 42 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: He’s too conservative for my liking. Loves to keep everything in front of his defences, but yet still let’s their best players torch them That's why Sean likes him. His conservative style of defense. Tonight was a disaster defensively. Kelce basically destroyed us in the 1st half and for all intents and purpose the game was over. No press man or double teaming Kelce. It was a terrible strategy that sealed our fate. Never been a fan of Frazier and I'm afraid we'll be stuck with him a little longer. Alot of poor coaching decisions tonight. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 The decision was not to cover Kelce. At all. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlgarsh Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Big Blitz said: What coverage? Might as well of just had cameramen covering him. Would have been just as effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiserplayer Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, jlgarsh said: Might as well of just had cameramen covering him. Would have been just as effective It seemed that no one, not even the cameramen was covering Kelce. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic_Bills_Fan Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 43 minutes ago, FieldGeneral said: Zone will never work against KC unless you have pressure up front. This game was lost way before the 9-0 lead even materialized. True but to be fair has anyone been able to hang with the chiefs man to man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, sullim4 said: I don't think that's fair - McD and Frazier are not above criticism and they will be the first people to tell you that. The Bills got killed by Kelce and Hill the entire game and Kelce in particular was wide open constantly in the second half. They accounted for 290 of 325 yards of passing from Mahomes. After the first half, where Kelce just killed you, it would seem to make sense to adjust to that and take him away. Sell out and make the Chiefs beat you on the ground or with other receivers. This is how Belichick typically game plans on defense -- make a team win in a different way -- and it usually works. The CBS sideline reporter mentioned that McD was keeping the same game plan for the second half. Anyone watching that game must've thought he was either (1) lying, or (2) out of his mind. Significant changes needed to be made on defense after giving up 21 points in the second quarter, and they failed to do so. They didn’t play as much cover 2 shell in the second half and blitzed more. As a result Hill put up just about all of his yards in the second half. I don’t think we have the scheme to match up against a guy like Mahomes or how it used to go with Brady. Our scheme is also very vulnerable to good TE’s. We plah almost all zone and good TE’s/QB’s exploit the vacated areas. We don’t have a pass rush from the front 4 to prevent that from happening. Our defense can look great against average to below average offenses, but it really hasn’t shown it can hold up to an elite passing offense yet. 12 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said: True but to be fair has anyone been able to hang with the chiefs man to man? Mixing looks, zone / man, sure. 49ers should have won the Super Bowl last year. Almost 10 straight games this year the Chiefs couldn’t win by more than 7. Our scheme is just too one dimensional. Perhaps all schemes have major issues vs a team as talented as KC but ours is made more for beating the middle of the pack teams that will make enough mistakes to lose. KC will never be that team. Edited January 25, 2021 by KzooMike 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Coot Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 The only rationale that makes any sense to me is that Frazier/ McDermott conceded the underneath completions to prevent big plays and then when KC got into the red zone to run the types of defenses that had caused KC previously to have trouble scoring TDs in the red zone. Remember that KC was said to have red zone scoring troubles. My 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) Yeah and to see it wasn’t working after a one quarter and never try to line anyone across from him or bump him or chip or anything. Nothing. No changes the entire night on Kelce outside of one play that Hill went to the sidelines and White stayed on Kelce outside. Edited January 25, 2021 by Straight Hucklebuck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 hours ago, Fan boy '92 said: This is the defense that McD knows. He was hired as a zone defense coach and that's what he puts on the field. His style of d requires mistakes to be made by the offense/qb. This may work against most, but competition like Mahomes will beat this every time. The tight man on man that was run on us tonight with double teams, completely stifled our receivers. It was aggresive, Mcd's zone was passive and the result is what we saw tonight. Great comment. Bend but don't break only works if your opponent's QB misses open throws or throws picks, if they fumble, etc., etc. And KC wasn't doing any of those things. Seriously, take away that muffed punt and this was a total blowout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GETTOTHE50 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said: The decision was not to cover Kelce. At all. sad but true 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do The Reich Thing Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said: The decision was not to cover Kelce. At all. This is the only correct response. Peak example was when he and Hill were wide open on the final TD. Absurd defense. Edited January 25, 2021 by Do The Reich Thing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maybe Someday Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said: The decision was not to cover Kelce. At all. Disagree here. He just beat every coverage we threw at him including Tre man up. He’s a beast. IMO he wrecked our whole game plan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyC81 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 5 hours ago, UConn James said: Milano was sent on blitz so many times and we STILL got zero pressure. We blitzed 6 (Milano & Edmunds) a few times and Mahomes still had all day and picked us apart. Why wasn’t Milano on Kelce all night? Because they play a zone defense and Kelce easily found the holes. I hate zone defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 13 measly catches and everybody wants to change the game plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seoulofstone Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) The Bills were one of the worst teams in the league versus tight ends I had hoped that they would game plan for Kelce in particular, and figured that other players would kill us. In the end, no pocket pressure, and Kelce and Hill blew us up. I guess they stopped the run game? Even then they killed us on reverses. What is disappointing is that they seemed reactive rather than proactive. At no stage did they force Kansas to do anything different than normal. Edited January 25, 2021 by Seoulofstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Kelce accounted for almost 40% of the Chiefs’ passing game and he was wide open on most of his catches. This is inexcusable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 7 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said: The decision was not to cover Kelce. At all. in that case, the execution was PERFECT! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmishRifle Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 I believe in the growth mindset that McDermott preaches. We will use this game to fuel the off-season. It will guide personnel selection, coaching, and player improvement plans. I agree with most posters that the defensive concept was not up to the task. We can’t change that now. The important piece is to accept it, develop a plan, and move forward. The Playoffs expose your weaknesses. We were good enough to have 3 games provide us the information we need to move forward. It sucks right now but this moment should propel us forward! Keep the faith Bills fans. There’s more to come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, SDS said: Just stop. The Chiefs are 25-1 the last 26 games. You think it’s because it’s a lack of logic? You just need to put people in the right position and it just happens? why don’t you go ahead and make yourself a cool million dollars and let the NFL know how you stop the Kansas City Chiefs. Just give them your logic tree. I played out a reasonable scenario for you. I was asking you if that makes sense. Cause “logically”, that makes none to me. Teams defensively did a lot better containing KC this year with inferior personnel compared to the bills. Just saying.. Edited January 25, 2021 by BillsFan130 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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