The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Yep - look at the MVP list from the past 30 years...the floor is Rich Gannon (and he won it at 37)

Thank you for defeating your own argument. If Rich Gannon can win an MVP, anyone can. One years performance is not indicative of a career path. Sean Alexander says hi.

 

Additionally (and you’d know this if you actually were here to have an intellectual conversation) Lamar’s MVP season is built as much on his running as it is his passing. Take that away and he’s not an MVP. So that award has little relevance to the conversation of Lamar as a QB. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

Greg Roman offense. Once teams figure out what he’s doing they aren’t as effective or the qb without him ends up bad. His running game is a huge reason for success of offense. 

[TheElectricCompany]

7 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Thank you for defeating your own argument. If Rich Gannon can win an MVP, anyone can. One years performance is not indicative of a career path. Sean Alexander says hi.

 

Additionally (and you’d know this if you actually were here to have an intellectual conversation) Lamar’s MVP season is built as much on his running as it is his passing. Take that away and he’s not an MVP.

 

You can't take away Lamar's running ability, and he led the league in passing TDs last year.

Damn, did we do the same thing with Mahomes in 2018? Trying to put an asterisk on everything he accomplished in ~2 seasons in exhausting.

This thread needs some video:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/9/28/21459095/lamar-jackson-patrick-mahomes-15-best-highlights-ranked

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[H2o]

3 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Greg Roman offense. Once teams figure out what he’s doing they aren’t as effective or the qb without him ends up bad. His running game is a huge reason for success of offense. 

And the RB's they have fit perfectly as well. I know Ingram gets most of the focus and they have Dobbins now, but I would love to have Edwards lining up in our backfield. That dude is beast to bring down out there. 

[416BillsFan]

Alternate title: The End of the Hollywood Brown & Mark Andrews Era. Jackson's performance wasn't good, but amazed that these two are getting off so easy.

[BUFFALOTONE]

How about the fact that KCs defense is very much improved and that should be a concern to the whole AFC. Whatever you think about LJ, he was basically nullified and so was their running game for roughly 3 1/2 quarters. Spagnola had a great game plan. Jackson is a stud and is still improving, one bad game doesn’t mean anything. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

The blueprint to "contain" Lamar Jackson is fairly straight forward but often too difficult.  It starts with run defense up the middle and edge discipline to try and keep Lamar in the pocket.  If the RBs gash the middle, it's gonna be a long day.  If Lamar can get the edge it's gonna be a long day.  He's so damn fast that you think they have a line on them but he still gets the edge and turns the corner for a big gain.  The other part is to control their TEs in play action which is easier said than done because if the LBs are being sucked up to stop the run, the TEs will have more space.  Therefore, the goal is to stop the run up the middle, control the edge, control the TEs, and force him to throw to the edge.  

 

Baltimore panicked last night and felt they had to get into a shootout.  If they would have stuck with what their strength is, they might have had a better chance.  

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Eh. I would be pissed if JA had a clunker and the rest of the league said, see! I told you he wasn't any good! I don't think we should do the same to LJ. 

 

Tonight seemed as much about LJ having an off night as anything. 

I'm betting it's more of this too.  KC is a very good team.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Pokebball
added to response

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

2 minutes ago, 416BillsFan said:

Alternate title: The End of the Hollywood Brown & Mark Andrews Era. Jackson's performance wasn't good, but amazed that these two are getting off so easy.

I needed 1.5 more fantasy points from those two last night! They’re not getting off easy from me!

[aristocrat]

that's a short era

[whatdrought]

6 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

You can't take away Lamar's running ability, and he led the league in passing TDs last year.

Damn, did we do the same thing with Mahomes in 2018? Trying to put an asterisk on everything he accomplished in ~2 seasons in exhausting.

This thread needs some video:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/9/28/21459095/lamar-jackson-patrick-mahomes-15-best-highlights-ranked

 

 

 

 

except when the conversation is about Lamar as a Quarterback, and not a running back, you most certainly can and should focus on that one thing that defines quarterbacks... what is it again? Oh yeah. throwing the damn football. 

[97bills]

51 minutes ago, Chemical said:

if you were in the GDT last night you would have seen how desperate Bills fans are to bury Lamar, and how happy they were when he didn’t connect with his receivers. Maybe it makes some people feel better for passing on him  Personally I think it’s transparent and pathetic. It’s borderline racist when he’s called a running back, but that label was never thrown around for Allen. 
 

He had a perfect deep pass that was dropped in the end zone by Andrews that cost me my fantasy game this week. 
 

 

they were running the ball early. Then had a kickoff returned for a td. His passing was off in the first half but he also didn’t have many opportunities. 

I’m eating cookies with out milk that’s borderline racist 🤫

[Golden*Wheels]

Well the Lamar hype era has ended, at least. The "we need two young QBs to sell the matchup" era is also dead, as who matches with Mahomes right now....freakin' nobody. Maybe they put Josh in that spot next. BIG shoes to fill.

 

 

[416BillsFan]

Just now, Chemical said:

I needed 1.5 more fantasy points from those two last night! They’re not getting off easy from me!

Same boat, they almost blew it for me, but CEH staying out of the end zone saved my bacon. Will credit Andrew for the 1 point I got from his tackle (Our league plays 2 IDPs).

[hemma]

I know that if all NFL teams adopted this offense, I'd do my best to become a soccer fan.

Boring football.

[Alphadawg7]

I said all last year I would rather have Allen over Lamar.  I think Allen has a much higher ceiling and that I was skeptical about the Ravens offense long term as the league adjusts to stopping it.  And once it was figured out (Niners and Bills last year laid the ground work to slowing it down) then it would be inconsistent.  
 

However, that doesn’t mean Lamar is done being a dangerous starting QB.  That’s a bit extreme.  
 

Second, Kyler Murray is the real deal, he’s a good passing QB as well as a lethal runner.  He has Russel Wilson type potential, where as Lamar was always more like Vick type potential.  
 

I think Allen will prove to be a top 5 QB for the next decade and Kyler has that same potential.  Lamar I think will be that guy like a Newton or Vick where he’s a more dangerous runner than passer, but still can’t be over looked and still can beat you on any given day, just will lack consistency due to having limitations as a thrower.  
 

Would also add that Andrews and Brown had a bunch of drops last night and didn’t help Lamar out.  So this is all a bit knee jerk reaction to one game.  He by far has the weakest set of weapons around him in terms of Mahomes, Allen, and Murray.  He needs help, much like Josh did.  
 

Wont surprise me at all to see Ravens kick the tires on Antonio Brown once his 8 game suspension nears ending, especially if Brown keeps himself out of the negative spot light until then.  He’s been relatively quiet during the season, and I think part of that is that has to do with teams expressing interest under the condition he STFU and keeps his nose clean during that time.  
 

17 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Thank you for defeating your own argument. If Rich Gannon can win an MVP, anyone can. One years performance is not indicative of a career path. Sean Alexander says hi.

 

Additionally (and you’d know this if you actually were here to have an intellectual conversation) Lamar’s MVP season is built as much on his running as it is his passing. Take that away and he’s not an MVP. So that award has little relevance to the conversation of Lamar as a QB. 

Shaun Alexander was a monster for several years.  Not sure why you bring him up, terrible comparison.  

Edited September 29, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I said all last year I would rather have Allen over Lamar.  I think Allen has a much higher ceiling and that I was skeptical about the Ravens offense long term as the league adjusts to stopping it.  And once it was figured out (Niners and Bills last year laid the ground work to slowing it down) then it would be inconsistent.  
 

However, that doesn’t mean Lamar is done being a dangerous starting QB.  That’s a bit extreme.  
 

Second, Kyler Murray is the real deal, he’s a good passing QB as well as a lethal runner.  He has Russel Wilson type potential, where as Lamar was always more like Vick type potential.  
 

I think Allen will prove to be a top 5 QB for the next decade and Kyler has that same potential.  Lamar I think will be that guy like a Newton or Vick where he’s a more dangerous runner than passer, but still can’t be over looked and still can beat you on any given day, just will lack consistency due to having limitations as a thrower.  
 

Would also add that Andrews and Brown had a bunch of drops last night and didn’t help Lamar out.  So this is all a bit knee jerk reaction to one game.  He by far has the weakest set of weapons around him in terms of Mahomes, Allen, and Murray.  He needs help, much like Josh did.  
 

Wont surprise me at all to see Ravens kick the tires on Antonio Brown once his 8 game suspension nears ending, especially if Brown keeps himself out of the negative spot light until then.  He’s been relatively quiet during the season, and I think part of that is that has to do with teams expressing interest under the condition he STFU and keeps his nose clean during that time.  

 

Agree with all this too. And Antonio Brown if he can still play is EXACTLY the type of player he needs. A guy who is an elite route runner running every route. Their own Stef Diggs if you like.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road.

 

I agree with you in terms of what the Bills were looking for in a QB and why.  They emphatically did not draft Josh Allen to be a dual-threat, much less a run-first QB.  They said straight up that they wanted a QB who can work from the pocket.  The experts laughed when we drafted Allen saying that's just what he couldn't be.  After it became clear that, beyond expectations he was a big MOBILE QB and in fact a legitimate dual threat, some experts flipped and said we should retool our defense a la Ravens to take more advantage of him.  Bills said "Ah, No Thank You, Steady as She Goes."  I agree that's right for us.

 

As far as the "End of the Jackson Era", Sorry @Shaw66, but I think that's pretentious on so many levels. 

The first level, which stem from Punditland not you, is declaring a "Lamar Jackson Era" in the first place on the basis of one Hot Hot season and a "one and done" exit from the playoffs.  Kaepernick and the SF49ers were supposed to be an enduring offensive juggernaut as well after their SB appearance, that take didn't age well. Over a lifetime of watching football, I've learned in the School of Hard Knocks not to declare a long term pattern of Enduring Victory or Agonizing Defeat based on a season or a handful of games, much less one game.

 

But I've also learned not to declare a football problem "solved" or predict the end of a strong system based on one game.  A lot of people were predicting that the Josh Allen Experiment had come to a crashing end after the Texans loss.  When the stage was big, see! Allen melted down.  Pretender, not Contender, it was said.  Time will tell.

 

Last year the Bills saw firsthand the problems an offense faces when the D doesn't need to defend the whole field.  Once it was established that the Bills lacked both a credible deep threat AND a credible screen game, "Blitz Zero" or "Cover 0" was On, with the ability to stifle the intermediate and middle routes and rushes our offense did well.  This off-season, the Bills worked their butts off to establish both a screen game, and a credible deep threat by an upgrade at WR.  Allen worked his butt off to fill the gaps in his game and make good use of both.  So far, looks good, but there's a lot of football left.

 

Jackson has a limitation.  The Bills exposed it, the Titans exploited it, and last night the Kansas City Chiefs eviscerated it.  He doesn't, or can't, make all the throws.  He'll stand in the pocket and throw deep, and he'll throw over the middle (usually to the TE), but he can't hit the sideline routes consistently.  If a team can successfully contain the Ravens run game and take away the middle while manning up on the deep routes, they're toast.  The question was: would Jackson fill that gap over the winter? (We sometimes act as though our guy is the only QB who can level up and develop)

The answer seems to be "No" so far, but this is an odd season with all the OTA and mini-camp reps gone AWOL.   It's possible they're still a bit out of sync and they'll pick it up.  It's also possible that the MVP thing went to Jackson's head and he took his foot off the gas in terms of development, but he'll get a wakeup call and figure it out this off season.  And, it's possible he won't, and in that case you'll be right.

 

Lamar had a terrible, horrible, no good very bad game last night. His receivers didn't help, dropping balls they should have caught.  It remains to be seen whether that will be a pattern, or whether the Birds flew in to watch film, figured some things out, and flapped to the lab to soar to success.  I will say, I don't think every defense can do what KC (or the Titans, or the Bills) did.  So it's far too early to predict the end of an Era it was far too early to declare.

 

My major disappointment about last night was that I had hopes Wink Martindale would lay down a blueprint the Bills could work from to slow KC's offense.

Not so much.  Perhaps The Evil Hoodie will come up with something.

[ndirish1978]

Come on Shaw this is an overreaction. Jackson is still a very good QB who had a bad game and yes, needs to work on his pocket-passing. Some days you're the hammer and some days you're the nail. It was simply Lamar's turn to be the nail last night. It's not like the things you're saying are a new idea "hey let's force the kid to pass and limit his runs" is pretty much what every team who has played the Ravens has said and he's usually been able to get it done.

[whatdrought]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Shaun Alexander was a monster for several years.  Not sure why you bring him up, terrible comparison.  

He was not after his MVP season. Some of that was injuries, but the overall point being that MVP on the resume doesn’t dictate future performance. 

[H2o]

11 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

The blueprint to "contain" Lamar Jackson is fairly straight forward but often too difficult.  It starts with run defense up the middle and edge discipline to try and keep Lamar in the pocket.  If the RBs gash the middle, it's gonna be a long day.  If Lamar can get the edge it's gonna be a long day.  He's so damn fast that you think they have a line on them but he still gets the edge and turns the corner for a big gain.  The other part is to control their TEs in play action which is easier said than done because if the LBs are being sucked up to stop the run, the TEs will have more space.  Therefore, the goal is to stop the run up the middle, control the edge, control the TEs, and force him to throw to the edge.  

 

Baltimore panicked last night and felt they had to get into a shootout.  If they would have stuck with what their strength is, they might have had a better chance.  

Remember when he juked Milano out of his jock strap last year in that game? 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree with all this too. And Antonio Brown if he can still play is EXACTLY the type of player he needs. A guy who is an elite route runner running every route. Their own Stef Diggs if you like.

Yeah, Ravens are probably the most ideal fit.  Strong coaching staff that won’t put up with locker room issues and proved that by cutting Earl Thomas already, so AB comes in knowing he won’t get away with any antics.  And he has family on the team as well to hopefully help kee his head straight.  Add in that be immediately becomes the featured weapon, something that will motivate AB even more to prove he’s still an elite player, and it could t be a more ideal fit.  Plus, he’s an ideal tutor in terms of play style for Marquise as well.

 

If AB plays in the NFL again, this is where I think it will be.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

Come on Shaw this is an overreaction. Jackson is still a very good QB who had a bad game and yes, needs to work on his pocket-passing. Some days you're the hammer and some days you're the nail. It was simply Lamar's turn to be the nail last night. It's not like the things you're saying are a new idea "hey let's force the kid to pass and limit his runs" is pretty much what every team who has played the Ravens has said and he's usually been able to get it done.

 

Wonder if Josh Allen would get that kind of a response if he threw a 97 yarder out there?

 

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

He was not after his MVP season. Some of that was injuries, but the overall point being that MVP on the resume doesn’t dictate future performance. 

But that’s not a fair comparison either.  Alexander won it after years of being a monster and carrying a massive load of touches per season.  He won it close to end of his career, so to use him as an example to discredit Lamars future who won it in his 2nd season is also a bit silly wouldn’t you say.  
 

Alexander was the best RB in football or among the best for many seasons prior to winning the MVP too, but after that year his body started breaking down from all the wear on his body and retired 2 seasons later.  

[whatdrought]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But that’s not a fair comparison either.  Alexander won it after years of being a monster and carrying a massive load of touches per season.  He won it close to end of his career, so to use him as an example to discredit Lamars future who won it in his 2nd season is also a bit silly wouldn’t you say.  
 

Alexander was the best RB in football or among the best for many seasons prior to winning the MVP too, but after that year his body started breaking down from all the wear on his body and retired 2 seasons later.  

 

I’m not using it to discredit Lamar’s future. I’m saying MVP in a vacuum is a worthless basis of argument for a players future. 

[Orlando Tim]

This is a terrible game against the world champs but the blueprint has been there for his whole career, you just have to execute. Very few teams have executed it as well.

[BuffalOhio]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I agree with you.  I think, when someday the book on Allen's career is written (which will include several Lombardis), one of the themes will be that he learned the hard way to save himself for the next play.  It may not happen this year, but it's going to happen with the way he plays - he's going to get himself hurt.  Every single QB or player generally who plays the way he does eventually gets hurt, and many of them change their behavior afterwards as a result.  You can tell McD is struggling with how to coach this aspect of Josh's personality - you want the fire and the compete, you love the toughness and leadership, but there's just a fine line between going all out and taking unnecessary risks.  Someday, Allen will learn to throw the ball out of bounds or run out of bounds or slide, because he'll get hurt.  And the change won't be out of fear of getting hurt - it will be because he hates letting his teammates down by getting hurt.  That's the kind of person he is.

He needs to NOT put the fingers of his throwing hand into defender's facemasks.  That will lead to snapped fingers and Barkley in the lineup.  

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

He was not after his MVP season. Some of that was injuries, but the overall point being that MVP on the resume doesn’t dictate future performance. 

It was an injury (broken foot bone) but also famously a case of player getting massively paid and deciding that he didn't really like taking punishment anymore because he was basically set for life. Before that contract, he had had five seasons in a row of over 1600 yards from scrimmage and at least 16 TDs (he had 98 TDs over five seasons, which is insane). After he got paid, his ypc went immediately from 5.1 to 3.6, and he was gone from the league within two years. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, BUFFALOTONE said:

How about the fact that KCs defense is very much improved and that should be a concern to the whole AFC. Whatever you think about LJ, he was basically nullified and so was their running game for roughly 3 1/2 quarters. Spagnola had a great game plan. Jackson is a stud and is still improving, one bad game doesn’t mean anything. 

 

This.

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It was an injury (broken foot bone) but also famously a case of player getting massively paid and deciding that he didn't really like taking punishment anymore because he was basically set for life. Before that contract, he had had five seasons in a row of over 1600 yards from scrimmage and at least 16 TDs (he had 98 TDs over five seasons, which is insane). After he got paid, his ypc went immediately from 5.1 to 3.6, and he was gone from the league within two years. 

 

Yeah- I’m not arguing Lamar is Sean Alexander. I’m saying MVP doesn’t mean anything for long term projection and it doesn’t make a player unquestionably good as the poster I was engaged in implied. 

[Bill Lewes]

Good thread!    The original headline is my only issue - way sensational and, well, silly.       The OPs comments and many of the thoughtful posts along the way have really good, smart, good football chatter!    Thank you, all!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, BuffalOhio said:

He needs to NOT put the fingers of his throwing hand into defender's facemasks.  That will lead to snapped fingers and Barkley in the lineup.  

 

Not to mention a differently-coached LB like Trystan Hill grabbing his throwing arm and Chris Carson-ing it. 

 

Do we think there might be a DC in our division who coaches players to do just those sort of marginal unsportsmanlike things? Hmmm, let me think...Why Yes.  Yes there Is. 

 

Even without ill intent, Allen's hand getting jammed if the LBs trip and go to the ground on their own rather than with him controlling it, and he could be out for weeks.  Someone on the Bills team needs to get into Allen's head this week and pile-drive that message into his cerebellum before a defender pile-drives his throwing arm.  It's not just a 15 yard penalty, it's potentially the season.

[BUFFALOTONE]

22 minutes ago, H2o said:

Remember when he juked Milano out of his jock strap last year in that game? 

 

I think I pulled my groin on that play...

[Nihilarian]

Oh, because one team has another teams number... then everything unravels...no!

 

Ravens schedule, Washington, Cincy, Philly, Pittsburgh, Indy, NE, Tenn, Pitt, Dallas, Cleveland, Jacksonville, NY Giants, Cincy. This is a playoff team that will be there at the end of the season. 

 

The Chiefs almost lost to the Chargers in OT 23-20, their next opponents, NE, Raiders, Bills. Then Denver, Jets, Panthers, Raiders, Bucs, Denver, Miami, Saints, Atlanta, Chargers. 

 

Who knows what the season holds for each team. We shall see!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

[Antonio Brown]
Yeah, Ravens are probably the most ideal fit.  Strong coaching staff that won’t put up with locker room issues and proved that by cutting Earl Thomas already, so AB comes in knowing he won’t get away with any antics.  And he has family on the team as well to hopefully help kee his head straight.  Add in that be immediately becomes the featured weapon, something that will motivate AB even more to prove he’s still an elite player, and it could t be a more ideal fit.  Plus, he’s an ideal tutor in terms of play style for Marquise as well.

 

If AB plays in the NFL again, this is where I think it will be.

 

Here's the problem.  If AB's behavior was the result of a Diva ego gone out of control combined with teams that let him push the limits bit by bit until they were somewhere beyond Jupiter, "strong coaching staff" and not putting up with locker room issues may stem this.

 

But if AB's behavior is the result of a mental illness, substance abuse, or fatally flawed impulse control and creating a "reality bubble" of yes-men around his life, nothing will stop it.  BIG distraction.

 

 

[eball]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

I was watching Mahomes last night and you see the things he does that separates him from Allen. When he runs he doesn't take hits. He slides or he gets out of bounds. When a play is busted he will throw the ball away and live to fight another down. A lot of the throws Allen is making this year is just like Mahomes, but he needs to preserve himself by not taking the hits when he can and throw the ball away when necessary because it's not the end of the world. This will be the next step in the maturation of Allen. 

 

 

The difference between Allen and Mahomes is that even though Mahomes can run he only runs when he has to or a play breaks down...they don't design runs for him (that I've seen).  Josh's running ability is actually a weapon, forcing defenses to keep a spy on him.  Josh is, one would presume, more durable than the slighter Mahomes and this likely plays into it.  I agree that Josh needs to learn to protect himself (and the football) more, but I don't see the running decreasing as a part of his "maturation" -- he'll just be smarter about it.

 

As for Lamar, I'm not going to get into that discussion.  I'm on record that I don't think what Baltimore is doing with him is sustainable for any significant period of time.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by eball

[QB Bills]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

Umm, what?? How do you gather that? Allen might be able to throw it a couple of yards further, but you don't see Mahomes make nearly as many bad throws as Allen does either. I know everyone is on the hype train right now, but Allen is not even close to Mahomes. Likely never will be. And that's okay.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Eh. I would be pissed if JA had a clunker and the rest of the league said, see! I told you he wasn't any good!

 

Which, in fact, has been done in some quarters after the Houston loss.

 

I think last night was more about the KC defense and offense than about Lamar having an "off night".  Lamar had his lunch money (and his off night) handed to him.  I think it may be true that KC looked past the Chargers a bit and put more horses into prepping for the Ravens.

[BeastMaster]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

I agree on Jackson.

 

Murray is a much better passer though and has a much better chance to be a Russell Wilson type than someone like Lamar that could flame out. 

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

I’m not using it to discredit Lamar’s future. I’m saying MVP in a vacuum is a worthless basis of argument for a players future. 

 

Well yeah, using any single season to predict a players future is a bit silly.  But, to win an MVP, you have to be more than just lucky, I mean there needs to be talent there.  Lamar may or may not ever win it again, but I do think he will have a long career as a starter in the NFL.  

 

Question...and I did not look it up myself, so dont know the answer...but has any player who won MVP while young or in their prime ever fallen off a cliff after winning it?  Someone who was nearing the end of their respective career in other words.