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Shaw66

The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

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You’re one of my favorite posters @Shaw66.

 

I think this take is a little shortsighted.

 

Compare LJs WRs to Josh’s.  You can’t.  Hollywood Brown is his best WR.  He would be our 3rd or possibly 4th best WR imo.  He isn’t that good.  He has zero catch radius.  Snead?  Bum.  Boykin?  Bum.  Duvernay is their best WR imo and he’s nothing special at this point.  Andrews is a very good TE.  He doesn’t make up for the lack of any good WRs.

 

my main problem with this post is the fact that your title says he’s done. His era is over.  Year 3.....as a QB....and his era is over.  Can’t get behind the notion that he can’t improve.  
 

I don’t really understand why Kyler murray is even mentioned in the thread.  He has a cannon and can make all the throws.  Just because he electric running the ball doesn’t mean he can’t throw.  He can and he will.  Mentioning him in this post just makes me more nervous about facing him this season.  I think he’s a much more natural thrower of the football than LJ

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It really comes down to this with Lamar: 

 

He has some phenomenal strengths, and some serious weaknesses. Most young QB’s do. When you encounter a prospect with this you’re faced with two options: 

 

1- Help him grow through his weaknesses and improve so that he becomes more rounded and hopefully becomes a complete player. (The Josh Allen model) 

 

2- Ignore the weaknesses and focus entirely on the strengths, betting that you can magnify the strengths enough that the weaknesses don’t slow him down. (The Lamar Jackson model) 

 

(there’s also a third model where you heighten the weaknesses and do everything you can to ruin the strengths- we call that the Darnold) 

 

The Ravens decided early on that they wanted model two. Maybe the right decision, maybe not. Time will tell. Clearly they have had success, and I think it made a lot of sense because Jackson’s strengths were so strong, but the problem they’re coming up against is that when he goes against really good teams that can exploit his weaknesses, he has faltered. At times the strengths have made up for it, but when the chips are down he’s had some bad Goes of it. 
 

It comes down to this. Jackson is an elite runner of the ball, and he’s a really good passer when everything is working perfectly (I.e, when he’s protected, and his first or second read has good separation). What his weaknesses are is his inability to work the outside of the field, and his inability to stand in the pocket with pressure and deliver the football. When teams come into the game willing to ignore his strengths and focus on his weaknesses (by pressuring him, and by locking down the middle of the field) it results in bad games for him.
 

I think this is exasperated by a personality thing as well: Lamar is so good at what he does well that he’s always won that way. He really doesn’t have a context for winning differently and we see when his way gets shutdown he gets very frustrated and emotional which has a snowballing effect. 
 

The Ravens seem happy to use, abuse, and lose Lamar without trying to strengthen his weaknesses. They’ve had some success and may have more, but it’s hard to imagine them winning it all that way. 
 

 

1 minute ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Par for the course in an idiotic thread.

Ya'll keep wasting brain cells trying to tear down league MVPs.

 


Man shut up. Stop acting like you know better without actually making an argument. You look a fool. 

Edited by whatdrought
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Lamar Jackson is an exception talent and played to a level deserving of his MVP status last season.  And Roman's offense is well suited to his current skill set but does anyone see the strategy of the Ravens providing him any opportunities to develop his game to the next step?  Lamar has some critical weaknesses in his game.  Weaknesses that need to be developed or eliminated (if that's possible) to stop defenses from game planning against them and enable him to become more of a complete QB.  The kind of QB that can be effective in whatever circumstances are present. 

Compare this to the way the Bills have developed Allen and the improvement in his game over time.  The Bills didn't simply customize an offense around his strengths and accept his weaknesses and just go with it.  That to me seems what the Ravens are doing with Jackson.  If the intent of the Ravens is to win 10 plus games every season and lose in the playoffs when they encounter a 'complete' team and QB then they are well positioned for the next several seasons.  If they want to win it all they need to develop Jackson into a more complete QB and if that isn't possible start looking at 'Plan B'.     

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57 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Say it with me..."We don't have to tear down Lamar, to prop Josh up".

 

Lamar is a phenomenal player and deserves his place at the "elite of the elite" table. Josh is well on his way to earning a seat. Both of these things can exist simultaneously.

 

Frankly, I find this take to be garbage and won't respond further. "The end of an era" because the MVP had one bad game?  Get outta here...

 

Shaw - you come for the king, you better not miss.

 

We don't have to prop up Lamar as being an elite passer either.  

 

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5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Hah! I didn't say Jackson is a bad athlete or wont ever play another down.  I said you cant have a consistently offense unless you have a qb who can run a full scale NFL passing offense from the pocket.  Jackson cant do it and is way behind Allen learning it. And even if Jackson can learn it, as long as they try to feature the running qb, they cant send receivers deep.  

 

It was completely obvious watching those two offenses. 


Do you have any proof they can’t send receivers deep? He came into Last night’s game leading the league in YPA
 

if you just watch the first 4 plays of the highlight video above he can clearly hit the deep ball. 
 

Now you have stats and some  video countering your opinion. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Chemical said:


Are we knocking QBs for who they’ve played now? Lamar has plenty of deep passes last year 


a quick google search of Lamar Jackson deep passing pulls up this quote. 

 

“Including the postseason, he completed 27 of 68 deep passes for 829 yards, 12 touchdowns, two interceptions, and a passer rating of 113.3, fifth-best in the league among quarterbacks who took at least 50% of their snaps

 

68 passes would be 17% of all of Jackson’s passing attempts last season, while also accounting for 26.5% of his total passing yards and a third of his touchdown passes from 2019.”

 

also the first 3-4 plays in this highlight reel show he can do it. There are plenty more if you keep watching:

 

 

 

 

 

This is how I know you didn’t actually read my comment. A lot of his pass stats came in blowout time. This isn’t a debate over if he can make throws, or lead an offense or nothing. It’s about if he can sustain his play at an MVP level. They butchered teams last year and don’t get me wrong he had a magical season we may never see again but I doesn’t change that a decent amount of games were over by halftime for the most part. Defenses then played Baltimore to run and kill clock. Which left big plays in the pass game which padded his stats. Of course he made those plays and that takes talent, but it’s not the same as making those plays when you’re down 21-10 either which MVP elite quarterbacks do. He’s very limited as a passer and that doesn’t mean he’ll be out of the league in a year, just in my opinion means he cannot sustain MVP elite level play. It also does not help him that Romans trend is usually being figured out in year 2 and completely exposed year 3. 

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I never believed in the first place. Always figured it would come to an end. Not sure if you can say it has after one game. 

Edited by BananaB

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20 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Ballsy post by the OP, he knew he would get push back and still made his opinion known with strong analysis. I think the end of an era thing my be somewhat hyperbolic-by design? I'm not sure.

 

Personally, I've always though many of the same things, and worry about him getting hurt. Once he starts getting hurt it likely won't end either. The comparison to Josh is interesting in the fact that Buffalo, Daboll, Allen et al seem to be evolving by adding pieces and moving towards a more traditional QB led offense combined with using the newer taking advantage of the movement skills of a great athlete.

 

The league always adjust to players and what looks unstoppable like Lamar last year will have to adjust. Greg Roman IMO has always shown a nice ability to build around what he has. Whether he can take it to another level is another question. What if this model they're using with Jackson doesn't have anywhere to go unless he improves certain elements of his game?

 

I think Shaw66 may be on to something I've noticed since the end of last year as well. The league is figuring it out and some teams will be able to handle it, others with weaker talent may not at first thus still good numbers sometimes for Jackson. Has there ever been a team with a QB quite like this win the Super Bowl? It remains to be seen, there is a reason NFL coaches prefer the Mahomes, Allen model. The days of a statue QB are over, they want movement skills. But, they also realize you have to be able to attack certain areas on the better squads in particular.

 

Great post!

There’s only been one other QB in league history that we can compare to LJ. Maybe two now, Kyler.

 

I’m not a huge LJ fan, I just think that the OP is a bit premature to call it the end.

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3 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Man shut up. Stop acting like you know better without actually making an argument. You look a fool. 
 

That's the point - you don't need to when you're talking about MVPs.

The notion that you have to go into deep statistical analysis and All 22 review around a MVP is insane.

He's a phenomenal player, and I look forward to seeing what his next few chapters look like.

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3 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

This is how I know you didn’t actually read my comment. A lot of his pass stats came in blowout time. This isn’t a debate over if he can make throws, or lead an offense or nothing. It’s about if he can sustain his play at an MVP level. They butchered teams last year and don’t get me wrong he had a magical season we may never see again but I doesn’t change that a decent amount of games were over by halftime for the most part. Defenses then played Baltimore to run and kill clock. Which left big plays in the pass game which padded his stats. Of course he made those plays and that takes talent, but it’s not the same as making those plays when you’re down 21-10 either which MVP elite quarterbacks do. He’s very limited as a passer and that doesn’t mean he’ll be out of the league in a year, just in my opinion means he cannot sustain MVP elite level play. It also does not help him that Romans trend is usually being figured out in year 2 and completely exposed year 3. 


I bolded a specific part of your post for a reason. You characterized the offense as running 70 yards then throwing for 1yd TD. That’s just not true. 
 

by the way they may have come back from 27-10 last night if Andrews had caught the perfectly placed deep ball in the end zone. 
 

Edit: or are we only supposed to give Josh credit for drops?

Edited by Chemical

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Quote

 

Good analysis but you lost me at "Josh clearly has the better arm". Not sure you saw those backpedaling rainbow dimes Mahomes was dropping? Steve Young nailed the come from behind analysis on Lamar in the pre-game.

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1 minute ago, TheElectricCompany said:

That's the point - you don't need to when you're talking about MVPs.

The notion that you have to go into deep statistical analysis and All 22 review around a MVP is insane.

He's a phenomenal player, and I look forward to seeing what his next few chapters look like.


You’re argument here is that an MVP award is a bona-fide guarantee that a player is elite and will continue to be?

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I agree Jackson has been over-hyped  but take into consideration the coaches and offenses they play in.

Reid is >>>Roman.  Mahomes is great but he also had wide open receivers to throw to last night and more talented players to work with.

How would Jackson do if he played for the Chiefs?  I don't think he an elite passer but I don't think you need to be to be in a winning system. 

 

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2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:


You’re argument here is that an MVP award is a bona-fide guarantee that a player is elite and will continue to be?

 

Yep - look at the MVP list from the past 30 years...the floor is Rich Gannon (and he won it at 37)

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Ravens are simply not built to put up 34 points. If their defense gets abused by a KC like juggernaut, They are toast. Blame Lamar or whomever, but that’s how the team is built. 

Edited by Over 29 years of fanhood

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I've been quiet on Lamar Jackson, but I was never unhappy that the Bills passed him over for Josh Allen.  As a QB, Jackson has a narrow and specialized skill set, and I did not think he could broaden it dramatically.  I feel a little differently about Murray.  I think he's fairly smart and a better passer than Jackson.  His major shortcoming his lack of length, a literal SHORTcoming if you will.  He's playing in kind of a unique offense (for the NFL) but I think his skill set is broader than what Lamar Jackson possesses.  How that plays out long term, I have no idea but he's a good match for what Kingsbury wants to do at Arizona.

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13 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You’re one of my favorite posters @Shaw66.

 

I think this take is a little shortsighted.

 

Compare LJs WRs to Josh’s.  You can’t.  Hollywood Brown is his best WR.  He would be our 3rd or possibly 4th best WR imo.  He isn’t that good.  He has zero catch radius.  Snead?  Bum.  Boykin?  Bum.  Duvernay is their best WR imo and he’s nothing special at this point.  Andrews is a very good TE.  He doesn’t make up for the lack of any good WRs.

 

my main problem with this post is the fact that your title says he’s done. His era is over.  Year 3.....as a QB....and his era is over.  Can’t get behind the notion that he can’t improve.  
 

I don’t really understand why Kyler murray is even mentioned in the thread.  He has a cannon and can make all the throws.  Just because he electric running the ball doesn’t mean he can’t throw.  He can and he will.  Mentioning him in this post just makes me more nervous about facing him this season.  I think he’s a much more natural thrower of the football than LJ

 

I commend this post to the board as by far, and I mean by FAR, the best post in this thread (and I would add that Andrews had his worst game as a pro last night).

Edited by GunnerBill
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It's premature to count out Lamar Jackson.  We are talking about ONE GAME against the defending Super Bowl champions.

At the same time, I can understand the skepticism from his critics.

 

Jackson is a very unique talent, far unlike anyone else in the NFL.  To help him out, Baltimore has built a brilliant offensive scheme that perfectly matches Jackson's skills, and looks different than any other system in the league.  To this point, it's been extremely successful.  Most of the time it's been unstoppable.

 

Now... 100 years of NFL history tells us that coaches will eventually adapt to what Baltimore is doing.  Coordinators will study what Tennessee did in the playoffs last year, and what Kansas City did last night.  Teams in the NFC North will draft defensive talents to counter the Ravens lineup.  It may take another season or two, but at some point the NFL will absolutely find a solution to this attack.

 

What happens after that will depend on Jackson's continued development.  When teams figure out how to keep him inside the pocket, can he still make the necessary throws?  Now I don't think he needs to become a pure "pocket passer" to be successful.  There are lots of QBs who use their athleticism to extend plays outside the pocket.  Josh Allen is a perfect example.  But while Allen is proving he can succeed when defenses take away the run, we haven't quite seen that kind of response from Jackson yet.  

 

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1 minute ago, Chemical said:


I bolded a specific part of your post for a reason. You characterized the offense as running 70 yards then throwing for 1yd TD. That’s just not true. 
 

by the way they may have come back from 27-10 last night if Andrews had caught the perfectly placed deep ball in the end zone. 

21 of his 46 passing touchdowns have come within 10 yards of the goal line. So yes the trend is they generally work down the field running and then can throw it in within 10 yards. I would suggest going to read pro football references page on Lamar. Game log passing touchdowns for his career. 
You will see a giant portion of his passing touchdowns within 10 yards and with the score up big by Baltimore a lot of times last year. 
But once again this isn’t about if he can throw, or lead teams. It’s sustaining MVP level elite play. There was and is zero chance Baltimore and Lamar can maintain what they did last season. 

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