Lack of legit backup QB may be Bills' 2020 Achilles heel

[snafu]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

I'm  responding to the OP before I read the other posts.

 

First >  Which teams really have "Legit Backups"?

 

One example that comes to mind is Vegas.  If your "Legit Backup" is competing for the starting job.... Mariota VS Carr....  what does that say? 

 

(not to mention that some teams are looking for a Legit Starter)

 

you beat me to it.  

 

 

The teams that don’t have their starter are not considered ready to compete.

Any team that wants to win a championship needs to be good everywhere. 

 

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea you are in the school of better to have a guy who is good when he doesn't have to play. I am in the school of better to have a guy who is good when he does. I think the NFL groupthink on this question is way outdated.

 

Do you factor in that Barkley (with his flaws) is in his third season with this OC and personnel,  whereas any other backup (with their flaws) would need the entire offense to be dumbed down in order to learn the plays and players?  Maybe that’s a leveling element which helps overcome Barkley’s greater amount of flaws.

 

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, snafu said:

 

The teams that don’t have their starter are not considered ready to compete.

Any team that wants to win a championship needs to be good everywhere. 

 

 

Do you factor in that Barkley (with his flaws) is in his third season with this OC and personnel,  whereas any other backup (with their flaws) would need the entire offense to be dumbed down in order to learn the plays and players?  Maybe that’s a leveling element which helps overcome Barkley’s greater amount of flaws.

 

 

 

 

I’m not ready to toss in the towel on Barkley just yet. Last year’s cameo was a mess for sure but I’m willing to chalk it up to a meaningless start. 

[Thunderstruck]

I love the Bills, but I'm not sure they have reached Achilles status. He was 24 - 1, after all.

 

Having said that, the etymology of the name can be analyzed as meaning "he who has the people distressed", so I am willing to concede it.

[Not at the table Karlos]

Davis Webb seems to have the head for it. Was hoping he could take the spot from Barkley. But that seems unlikely. No idea how he’s been in the pros. 

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Do you factor in that Barkley (with his flaws) is in his third season with this OC and personnel,  whereas any other backup (with their flaws) would need the entire offense to be dumbed down in order to learn the plays and players?  Maybe that’s a leveling element which helps overcome Barkley’s greater amount of flaws.

 

It factors in, for sure, and knowing what we know now about the limited offseason maybe even a more talented guy would have had difficult supplanting Barkley but the Bills didn't know that when they were putting together their offseason plan. The truth is, also, that the Bills already have to significantly dumb down their offense when Barkley goes in because he just can't make the same throws Josh can. We saw that last year. They tried to keep running the offense and he just can't do it. If Josh missed 2-3 weeks they would have to really reign in the passing game. It's not like he can just walk out there and carry on running the Bills base offense.

[Don Otreply]

Curious, how many teams have back up QBs that can win more than a couple of games for their team, and how many teams can prop up their back up the back up QB to the extent they win in the post season?
 

Go Bills!!!

Edited August 17, 2020 by Don Otreply

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I think the team's achilles heel at the moment is the inability to really step on the the gas when they're up.  It bit buffalo in a couple of games as the defense wasn't able to hold up.  The playoff loss, the losses to NE and CLE, near losses to cincy/miami.  

 

I don't even really know what it is.  Sometimes playcalling got cute and they'd do dumb stuff, sometimes it was drops/turnovers, and sometimes it was just poor execution.  A sack is a drive killer, a penalty is a drive killer, etc. 

The identity needs to be there for this to happen.  I think moss can be a big part of helping close out games.  Get that 7-10 point lead and hammer them with moss and play action.  The goal is to win, and you want to mitigate risk to make that happen, but playing too risk averse can cost you as well.

[snafu]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It factors in, for sure, and knowing what we know now about the limited offseason maybe even a more talented guy would have had difficult supplanting Barkley but the Bills didn't know that when they were putting together their offseason plan. The truth is, also, that the Bills already have to significantly dumb down their offense when Barkley goes in because he just can't make the same throws Josh can. We saw that last year. They tried to keep running the offense and he just can't do it. If Josh missed 2-3 weeks they would have to really reign in the passing game. It's not like he can just walk out there and carry on running the Bills base offense.

 

They tried to keep running their offense against the Pats, whose defense was smacking us around even before Barkley ever went into the game. I do understand your point. I think our crappy backup is a toss up at this point is just as good/bad as another crappy backup, just in different ways.  I’m hoping that a good, solid running game would alleviate Barkley’s arm issues, and I think we may have that.  

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

List the teams with backups as good as their starters. 

[Ya Digg?]

I think it’s pretty obvious back up QB was not really a priority the last couple of years. They needed to upgrade a lot of positions and Beane has done a great job of that. I do think they have enough quality starters and depth that if Allen does go down for a game or two they have enough confidence in Barkley to do enough in those games. They know they need to upgrade the back up position, and perhaps they put a call in to gauge the I tweet of Dalton, Marriotta, etc. but they chose to focus their money and resources over the last couple of years on making the rest of the team better

[ProcessAccepted]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

So if you had your choice to add Frank Reich or Jim Kelly to this roster what is your choice?

 

Obviously you're adding Kelly.

How about you can have Frank Reich, Thurman and Andre or Jim Kelly

[SCBills]

We talk about how much better Allen should look with a cohesive OL, more experienced Knox, top 10 WR trio and a strong RB duo...  Well, whoever our backup is gets to play with those guys too, should he need to see any time.   

 

I'm not in love with Barkley, but as a game manager, with those weapons, and our defense, I think he can be ok.

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by SCBills

[Don Otreply]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

I think the team's achilles heel at the moment is the inability to really step on the the gas when they're up.  It bit buffalo in a couple of games as the defense wasn't able to hold up.  The playoff loss, the losses to NE and CLE, near losses to cincy/miami.  

 

I don't even really know what it is.  Sometimes playcalling got cute and they'd do dumb stuff, sometimes it was drops/turnovers, and sometimes it was just poor execution.  A sack is a drive killer, a penalty is a drive killer, etc. 

The identity needs to be there for this to happen.  I think moss can be a big part of helping close out games.  Get that 7-10 point lead and hammer them with moss and play action.  The goal is to win, and you want to mitigate risk to make that happen, but playing too risk averse can cost you as well.

This, ^^^
 

It is all our hopes that sitting on a one to three score lead and in effect for what ever the reasons, having the offense take their foot off the gas has bit the team in the azs hard enough that they stop with this “leave it to the defense to close it out” thought process. The offense really needs a constant attack mentality if we are to get to the promise land. I have a high level of confidence that the team has the talent do what needs to be done, ??Truth he told, I am a bit iffy on Brian bringing it to fruition. 

Go Bills!!!

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, P Riv said:

Totally agree with the OP.  We really do need a veteran QB as a backup/insurance, but also as a mentor to the young guys.  This is pretty standard across the league since there really was a league and I think the Front Office is taking a risk when they really didn't need to.  Could be a major eF up.  

Barkley is the veteran guy/mentor , though.

[Kwai San]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Think back just two years and you’ll see what a real QB problem looks like going into a season! Peterman? Really? People....please!

Reading through this thread I was wondering who would bring up Peterpick and when.  Thanks!!!

[MJS]

I guess I'd have to consider the offensive line the weak point of the team. They were much improved last year but still below average. And we all saw Allen running for his life in that playoff game. He had no chance.

 

It's a line that can get the job done, but it lacks any really good starters. All of them are average or below average (I guess you can out Morse in the above average category).

 

I really hope they show improvement this year because they were a big reason we lost that playoff game. On almost every key play Allen had multiple rushers in his face as soon as he took the snap.

[Gugny]

Nobody worries more about the backup QB than Bills fans.

[keepthefaith]

Well we had Nate Peterman and let him go.

[Shaw66]

Backup anything can never be a "glaring hole."

 

My cousin used to tell me that it isn't just injuries that matter, but injuries at which position at which point in the season.  Whether you will need to call on your backup and in what games is critical, and most starters survive the season without major injuries.   So I'm not calling backup a glaring weakness. 

 

Beyond that, the Bills run on systems; they don't count on stars.  In particular, if you read one of any of fifty threads about Allen here, people aren't counting on him being a star.  They're counting on him being an above average guy who wins games by getting the ball to the best overall collection of skill players the Bills have had in a couple decades, behind a veteran, experienced line playing its second season together.  In other words, if Allen gets hurt, no one is expecting that the Bills will be losing an 800-yard rusher or a 5,000-yard passer.  Even 4,000 yards.

 

Point being that if the Bills' offense is what McDermott and Daboll want it to be, a good, smart game manager should be able to fill in for a few weeks without a huge drop off in production.  

 

Matt Barkley hasn't lit the world on fire, but he knows the system inside and out, he has maturity, and he has the respect of the team.  Fromm is smart and the quintessential game manager - he played and won a lot of big games in college, executing a high-powered offense.   Even Webb has promise.  I haven't paid much attention to him, but the guy was a big-time recruit, split time with Baker Mayfield at Texas Tech, started at Texas Tech but lost the job to Mahomes, and had an excellent senior season at California.  The guy can play, and if you recall, he led the big off-season workout when Allen and all the receivers got together.  

 

If you're talking proven backup, sure, the Bills don't have one.  Few teams do.  But given that the Bills aren't looking for Allen to be All-Pro this season (they'd love it, of course, but the Bills need that much from him to win), and given the history and nature of the potential backups, I'm not losing any sleep.  

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, snafu said:

 

They tried to keep running their offense against the Pats, whose defense was smacking us around even before Barkley ever went into the game. I do understand your point. I think our crappy backup is a toss up at this point is just as good/bad as another crappy backup, just in different ways.  I’m hoping that a good, solid running game would alleviate Barkley’s arm issues, and I think we may have that.  

 

 

If we can run like the 49ers in the playoffs that would help. If we have to throw it with Barkley we are in trouble. 

[ILBillsfan]

Not worried, if any teams loses their starting QB they in the same position.  I'm fine with Barkley and Fromm as the backups.  There are a few teams that have names people recognize as the back up but that is a luxury I can live without.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

I mean, is it even a message board if there isn't a four-page argument about the backup QB? 

[Shaw66]

36 minutes ago, ILBillsfan said:

Not worried, if any teams loses their starting QB they in the same position.  I'm fine with Barkley and Fromm as the backups.  There are a few teams that have names people recognize as the back up but that is a luxury I can live without.

Yeah.  Put another way, only about 15 teams have a guy starting at QB whom fans like and think is ready to win.  If half the teams don't have a quality starter, why would anyone think that there are quality backups to be had?

 

People here have said Fitz would be a great backup.   Sure.  He'd be such a good backup he's a starter.  

 

Does anyone think Chad Henne or Matt Moore is running the Chiefs' offense in any way that even remotely resembles how Mahomes runs it?  How about CJ Beathard and Nick Mullens backing up Garoppolo?  If I'm a Saints fan, I don't even get a lot of comfort out Taysom Hill and Jameis Winston.  

 

As Big Hands points out, this is a message board problem, not a real world problem. 

[dpberr]

I think the backup QB position is quite solid.  You have one that knows the playbook cold, and you have two backup QBs with high football IQs.  

 

I think Matt Barkley would perform fine.  I think Kurt Warner gave fans an unrealistic perception of what a backup QB is.  Backup quarterbacks are the first aid kit.  They are not a replacement for the operating room.   

 

If the Bills had two blue chip prospects at QB, we'd have the 21st Century version of DF/RJ every single week.  One has a bad game, bench him!  The other has a bad game, now bench him!  

[C.Biscuit97]

9 hours ago, MJS said:

Sounds awesome. If our biggest issue is a backup we must be in a pretty good spot.

True but this is a big issue that gets glossed over. Barkley is great guy but might have the worst QB rating of any current qb. When he has to play extend time, he’s been horrible. With Allen’s style, there is a risk of injury. Plus, there’s the whole COVID issue.

 

look at this like Pittsburgh last year.  With their defense, they make the playoffs with average/ slightly below average qb play.  They had awful qb play.  Barkley might be slightly better than what they had and it’s not that big of a gap. 

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Backup anything can never be a "glaring hole."

 

My cousin used to tell me that it isn't just injuries that matter, but injuries at which position at which point in the season.  Whether you will need to call on your backup and in what games is critical, and most starters survive the season without major injuries.   So I'm not calling backup a glaring weakness. 

 

Beyond that, the Bills run on systems; they don't count on stars.  In particular, if you read one of any of fifty threads about Allen here, people aren't counting on him being a star.  They're counting on him being an above average guy who wins games by getting the ball to the best overall collection of skill players the Bills have had in a couple decades, behind a veteran, experienced line playing its second season together.  In other words, if Allen gets hurt, no one is expecting that the Bills will be losing an 800-yard rusher or a 5,000-yard passer.  Even 4,000 yards.

 

Point being that if the Bills' offense is what McDermott and Daboll want it to be, a good, smart game manager should be able to fill in for a few weeks without a huge drop off in production.  

 

Matt Barkley hasn't lit the world on fire, but he knows the system inside and out, he has maturity, and he has the respect of the team.  Fromm is smart and the quintessential game manager - he played and won a lot of big games in college, executing a high-powered offense.   Even Webb has promise.  I haven't paid much attention to him, but the guy was a big-time recruit, split time with Baker Mayfield at Texas Tech, started at Texas Tech but lost the job to Mahomes, and had an excellent senior season at California.  The guy can play, and if you recall, he led the big off-season workout when Allen and all the receivers got together.  

 

If you're talking proven backup, sure, the Bills don't have one.  Few teams do.  But given that the Bills aren't looking for Allen to be All-Pro this season (they'd love it, of course, but the Bills need that much from him to win), and given the history and nature of the potential backups, I'm not losing any sleep.  

There were better options out there. Jameis is making less money that Matt Barkley.  Hell if Allen flamed out, maybe Winston becomes the guy. I do think the team was worried about getting a guy in here that could beat out Allen. I think that’s a mistake but I do somewhat get it.
 

they have put together a good roster.  But too often, bills teams just settle at the most position in sports.  We have a bottom 5 backup situation.

[Rc2catch]

I’m good with Barkley and Fromm. 
I know many fans think we’re gonna Chief or Saint it and throw 40 times a game but until proven otherwise IMO Mcdermott is a run first, run often, control the clock and play solid defense kinda coach. 
If Allen goes down 3-4 games I have faith the TEAM can still go out and win games. We may have to ride motor and moss but I’m confident they can still get some wins. Any longer than 3-4 games and the season is probably shot anyways. I’m just as good with Barkley and Fromm as I would be with Winston or Dalton because I believe this team is built to run very effectively. 

[JESSEFEFFER]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea you are in the school of better to have a guy who is good when he doesn't have to play. I am in the school of better to have a guy who is good when he does. I think the NFL groupthink on this question is way outdated.

What if Barkley is like Frank?  Give him a gameplan, a full week of practice and the first team offensive talent and he can get a win for his team.  He is 1 for 1 in that scenario.  That win against the Jets I in 2018 was way beyond my expectations .

 

[BuffaloBills1998]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I am surprised they didn't try to add a vet. There were better vet options than Barkley out there. He clearly has a v good relationship with Josh though and that factors into it. Fromm reminds me a lot of Barkley. Maybe he is better down the road, who knows, but for now I would have liked to see some legit vet competition for Matt. Hopefully Josh stays healthy and it doesn't matter.

There were no vets worth adding, Flacco is crap as well as Dalton both are INT machines. Beane was smart to not pay for a back up and instead drafted someone

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

There were no vets worth adding, Flacco is crap as well as Dalton both are INT machines. Beane was smart to not pay for a back up and instead drafted someone

 

What and Matt Barkley isn't? Everyone who is a backup has flaws. Barkley has more than most. 

[machine gun kelly]

We go with a back up it’s simply a dink and dunk, TE, and heavy run team.  We have what it takes to manage it, but we’ll take a hit no matter what.

 

For the Winston guys, 30 TD’s, 30 Int’s (a record), 47 sacks, and 12 fumbles.  60.7% comp. %.  Don’t hate the guy, but he is a turnover machine.  Maybe with his eye surgery he improves, but I’ll go along with if we grabbed Bridgewater in the past when he was a back up, or Dalton, or Fitz.  All much better.

 

As someone said, all back ups have warts including Barkley.  I do think it’s possible, not probable, but possible, we’re fine in a year of training Fromm.  This year, not so much.

[BuffaloBills1998]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What and Matt Barkley isn't? Everyone who is a backup has flaws. Barkley has more than most. 

Barkley is serviceable, he’s not perfect but he knows the system. Flacco is a bum at this point, and I think Dalton went to Dallas because of the Dak controversy that’s down there and maybe he knows there’s a chance he can start if Dallas and Dak can’t come to an agreement contract wise

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Barkley is serviceable, he’s not perfect but he knows the system. Flacco is a bum at this point, and I think Dalton went to Dallas because of the Dak controversy that’s down there and maybe he knows there’s a chance he can start if Dallas and Dak can’t come to an agreement contract wise

 

I disagree Barkley is "serviceable". And he might know the system but he can't execute it. Barkley is a bottom end backup. If he has to play we are in trouble. He is a nice guy. Good teammate. Josh likes him. Great in the meeting room. Bad on the field. 

[C.Biscuit97]

11 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

We go with a back up it’s simply a dink and dunk, TE, and heavy run team.  We have what it takes to manage it, but we’ll take a hit no matter what.

 

For the Winston guys, 30 TD’s, 30 Int’s (a record), 47 sacks, and 12 fumbles.  60.7% comp. %.  Don’t hate the guy, but he is a turnover machine.  Maybe with his eye surgery he improves, but I’ll go along with if we grabbed Bridgewater in the past when he was a back up, or Dalton, or Fitz.  All much better.

 

As someone said, all back ups have warts including Barkley.  I do think it’s possible, not probable, but possible, we’re fine in a year of training Fromm.  This year, not so much.

Even with 30 ints, he still is much, much better at taking care of the ball than Barkley.  I think some of you underestimate how bad Barkley has been. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Even with 30 ints, he still is much, much better at taking care of the ball than Barkley.  I think some of you underestimate how bad Barkley has been. 

 

In fairness to Bills fans who only watch the Bills his only start here was that Jets game which is unquestionably the best game of his career. I get that his two appearances in 2019 were in less than ideal circumstances but they looked much more like what he has been historically. The Jets game was the anomaly.  

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In fairness to Bills fans who only watch the Bills his only start here was that Jets game which is unquestionably the best game of his career. I get that his two appearances in 2019 were in less than ideal circumstances but they looked much more like what he has been historically. The Jets game was the anomaly.  

For sure.  That 117 game brought his career qb rating up to 66!

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

There were better options out there. Jameis is making less money that Matt Barkley.  Hell if Allen flamed out, maybe Winston becomes the guy. I do think the team was worried about getting a guy in here that could beat out Allen. I think that’s a mistake but I do somewhat get it.
 

There is no way in the world I'm taking Winston over Barkley as the backup.  No way.  The guy is an interception machine - was in college and is in the pros.  My backup has to play within the system and minimize mistakes.  Barkley's career numbers are worse, but that isn't who he is now.  Now he is a system quarterback, a game manager.

 

And I don't think the Bills should go looking for competition for Allen, not this year.  Next year, maybe.  

 

Gunner says there were better veteran choices out there than Barkley.  Maybe, but not many.   And particularly this year, when the backup is going to be getting more or less no quality reps in camp and none in preseason games, having the same backup the Bills had last season is a big advantage.  

 

Plus, I think Fromm will be the backup. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Shaw66

[Doc]

With the skill position talent the Bills now have, plus the defense, the backup QB will be fine if Allen misses some time.

[Doc]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Against last years schedule with this team I could see the back up QB going .500 or so.... this year no way. They'll be lucky to win one... depending on who they play if Allen does get hurt. 

 

Depends where in the schedule.  

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

With the skill position talent the Bills now have, plus the defense, the backup QB will be fine if Allen misses some time.

 

That skill position talent is Barkley/Fromm....

[Don Otreply]

16 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Guess you missed the Saints lose one game with HOF QB Drew Brees out for a good 6 weeks.... Bills would be lucky to win one game if Allen is out 6 weeks....

There is no maybe.... there absolutely were better options out there. 

How about the other 90 plus percent of the time...

 

Even I can point out the exception to prove the rule...