Knox talks about his hands...

[MJS]

43 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I was just thinking about Beane creating a culture of accountability.  When he screwed the pooch by going into a season with Peterman starting and rookie Allen as the backup, he came out and admitted he effed up and he made better decisions moving forward.

 

Great to see that from players.

 

It's missing from two people ... McDermott and Daboll.   They have yet to admit/own when they eff up.

 

But this is a Knox thread, so I'm going to get back on topic.

 

I think Knox will fix this issue and be a force for years to come.

McDermott talks about improving as a coach all the time and how important it is for him to grow as a coach.

 

And anyways, it doesn't matter what they say to the media. Press conferences don't make you a good coach. Admitting you screwed up doesn't make you a good coach. How many times has Belichick admitted that he screwed up, and he is considered the greatest coach of all time?

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

You must be really good a watching football to determine a rarely used TE who caught 15 passes all year would be Gronk-like (47 catches 10 TDs the season before he was drafted).

 

Props....

I didnt think he would be a gronk clone. But the way he ran after the catch reminded me of gronk

 

And after scouting for 20+ years I have a good bead on some position's

 

Everytime he caught the ball he consistently ran angry and broke 1-2 tackles per attempt

 

That was a great skill and thought he would be a better pro than collegiate honestly.. and I was super happy we grabbed him because he was talented, just underused

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, MJS said:

He also made some jaw dropping catches. On those plays he displayed excellent ability to focus and make the catch.

I think he will be fine.

 

I know that he made some jaw dropping catches.

 

Maybe I'm not explaining my point clearly enough. 

 

Catching a football in a game has to be an instinctive/reflexive act, right?  There's no time to think, just react. 

 

So in Knox, we got a guy whose instinctive reaction with a tight, contested catch is to focus fiercely and haul it in.  But when he has time/space his instinct/reflex is to think about where he's gonna go after the catch.

 

Is that something he can fix by some training or conscious process?  I'm not posting to rail on Knox, I love the guy. 

I've never played football, I'm posting to ask the guys who have played or coached what they know.  @Buffalo716?

 

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

Hapless, it can be taught, but my concern is usually you have to drill it into a kid when he’s young so it becomes like a reflex.  He’ll have to really work on it, and coaches will need to drill it out of him not to think ahead, and just catch the damn ball.  It can be done, but it’s not easy when someone is making this kind of pop Warner mistake at age 22 I assume.  The kids trying too hard.  It’s better to accept a 7 yard pass and get dropped by the defense, than try for the homerun and end up dropping the pass.

[MJS]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I know that he made some jaw dropping catches.

 

Maybe I'm not explaining my point clearly enough. 

 

Catching a football in a game has to be an instinctive/reflexive act, right?  There's no time to think, just react. 

 

So in Knox, we got a guy whose instinctive reaction with a tight, contested catch is to focus fiercely and haul it in.  But when he has time/space his instinct/reflex is to think about where he's gonna go after the catch.

 

Is that something he can fix by some training or conscious process?  I'm not posting to rail on Knox, I love the guy. 

I've never played football, I'm posting to ask the guys who have played or coached what they know.  @Buffalo716?

 

 

I played WR and I think you DO have time to think when making a catch. You can consciously choose to look the ball in instead of turning your head to look for the run. It's something that every single receiver goes through. You just hope they iron it out before they get to the pros. Still, you see it in the NFL all the time, and Knox didn't really have much college opportunity, so he's still raw.

 

You also saw Knox, in extremely tight coverage, make great catches. So he has displayed that he has the ability.

Edited July 19, 2020 by MJS

[Gugny]

16 minutes ago, MJS said:

McDermott talks about improving as a coach all the time and how important it is for him to grow as a coach.

 

And anyways, it doesn't matter what they say to the media. Press conferences don't make you a good coach. Admitting you screwed up doesn't make you a good coach. How many times has Belichick admitted that he screwed up, and he is considered the greatest coach of all time?

 

Belichick has 7 rings.

[MJS]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

Belichick has 7 rings.

So McDermott should emulate him and never admit that he's wrong and only mumble to the media.

[Gugny]

Just now, MJS said:

So McDermott should emulate him and never admit that he's wrong and only mumble to the media.

 

McDermott should be a better coach - specifically with gameday coaching and gameday roster management.  So yes ... he absolutely emulate Belichick.

[billsfan_34]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

What he meant was it wasn't a problem with hands, but his concentration. 

Yeah, I get that, but without concentrating you got no hands lol.

[Buffalo716]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I know that he made some jaw dropping catches.

 

Maybe I'm not explaining my point clearly enough. 

 

Catching a football in a game has to be an instinctive/reflexive act, right?  There's no time to think, just react. 

 

So in Knox, we got a guy whose instinctive reaction with a tight, contested catch is to focus fiercely and haul it in.  But when he has time/space his instinct/reflex is to think about where he's gonna go after the catch.

 

Is that something he can fix by some training or conscious process?  I'm not posting to rail on Knox, I love the guy. 

I've never played football, I'm posting to ask the guys who have played or coached what they know.  @Buffalo716?

 

 

 

It can certainly be improved by repetition if he's mentally strong.

 

Like you said he seems to have great focus when he's contested, but when he has tons of room to operate, he's thinking about all that room, and not focusing on catching the ball

 

It's totally a mental hurdle. Some players realize the concentration issue and fix it. Other players cant focus on what is ailing them

 

the fact that knox realizes he's looking to do too much before he catches it, is a good sign for a young player

 

He could break tons of tackles, he just needs to focus on catching the ball

Edited July 19, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Doc]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

I think “bad hands” could encompass multiple reasons.  
 

Bad hands simply can just be “bad hands”.   You struggle to catch balls.  It’s why some WRs transition to DB at some point in their developmental years.   Some just remain inconsistent but have other intangibles (speed/size) that keep giving them chances.   
 

It could also mean you struggle tracking the ball and end up putting yourself in tough catch situations and/or are unable to hand fight/shield the defender.  
 

Also, it could be concentration issues.  
 

The latter seems much easier to fix, so in Knox’s case, I’d rather he be able to make tough catches, shield defenders, track the ball etc. (Hes shown he can do all that) and have to work on his focus, if I were to choose.  
 

Contrast to Zay Jones, who just seems to have bad hands and can’t make contested catches.    He lived off the easy stuff in college and fooled our scouts into thinking he was an ultra-reliable target. 

 

Bad hands means just that: bad hands, i.e. no matter what, you will never catch the ball consistently.  Being a "bad receiver" encompasses multiple reasons.  Knox showed the ability to track, catch and get open.  His problem, as I saw and he did as well, was making sure he secured the catch before running with the ball.  That, as you said, is easier to fix than the other stuff. 

 

[Beast]

The more experience he gains he will know the proximity of defenders when the ball is reaching him so he won't have to look away before he secures the catch.

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I think as this article pointed out he still has too many other intangibles, size, speed in his favor that even if he can't fix the concentration issue, he may not become a star # 1 TE, but could see him still becoming a #2 TE that defense would need to scheme for.  He still finished #36 overall in receptions and 23rd in yardage and he was a rookie.  Stats like that would likely keep him on a roster.

 

 

I  think things like that are fixable.  It's like Josh Allen's accuracy issues.  Most things you read and hear it's a mechanics thing with him as opposed to TT who I think was just a scatter arm.  I'm sure he understands that himself, but in the heat of the moment it's sometimes forgotten.  Give him enough practice time, eventually that becomes second nature and doesn't get forgotten during the game.  Think it's the same with Knox.

Fair enough. However, given the many positives we’ve already seen, not doing extremely better catching the ball and being demoted to 2nd Team, will inevitably spell the end for a once so promising career. Whatever we may offer him for his second contract will likely be peanuts compared to other offers -given the Wow Plays he’s shown he’s capable of.

 

Color me concerned.

[C.Biscuit97]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I can't believe people actually thought he has a catching/hands problem

 

It was clearly a concentration thing

Huh? He caught 39 passes and had 0 tds in 3 years in a pass happy offense. Very good athlete, extremely raw TE.  His hands are absolutely a concern.

2 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

This is Great to read.

I was under the impression that he was over thinking the catch itself, causing himself to tighten up and muff the easy ones. 
If he is right about this, then he is set to have an insanely good break out year.

This offense with a top level TE added to a legit downfield # 1 receiver?

???????????????

This is what was so consternating: How could he make circus catches and drop give mes?

So when I played receiver, I’d much rather have a contested catch than the wide open easy one.  As others have said, you just concentrate better.  

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Huh? He caught 39 passes and had 0 tds in 3 years in a pass happy offense. Very good athlete, extremely raw TE.  His hands are absolutely a concern.

So when I played receiver, I’d much rather have a contested catch than the wide open easy one.  As others have said, you just concentrate better.  

I watch tons ole Miss. He wasn't even used for the most part

 

They run a full spread which does not utilize tight ends. he was basically their fourth or fifth option

 

And it did not mean he was there fourth or fifth best offensive player. It was just a stacked offense with targets to go to Brown,  Metcalf, lodge, and handing the ball off to Scottie Phillips for almost 1000k yards

 

Every time he touched the ball he did great stuff

[klos63]

I think Knox will likely become a very good TE, but there's nothing wrong with thinking ahead before you actually catch the ball. The great players think ahead and catch. I'm sure he'll get it figured out though. For some I'm sure it' comes with experience.

[WhoTom]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So in Knox, we got a guy whose instinctive reaction with a tight, contested catch is to focus fiercely and haul it in.  But when he has time/space his instinct/reflex is to think about where he's gonna go after the catch.

 

Is that something he can fix by some training or conscious process?

 

Have three guys run at him from different directions while he's making the catch. He'll learn to tune out the distractions.

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

So McDermott should emulate him and never admit that he's wrong and only mumble to the media.

People have a weird obsession with coach press conferences. Its like they think they impact the product on the field. Takes a breathtaking amount of narcissism to think that the words “I messed up” need to be said directly to the fan base. 

[eball]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So in Knox, we got a guy whose instinctive reaction with a tight, contested catch is to focus fiercely and haul it in.  But when he has time/space his instinct/reflex is to think about where he's gonna go after the catch.

 

This is neither rocket surgery nor brain science.  He wants to make plays. He is learning that when a defensive player is not right on him he needs to secure the ball first and then look to run people over.  As the game slows down for him there’s no reason to expect he won’t get this under control.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, eball said:

 

This is neither rocket surgery nor brain science.  He wants to make plays. He is learning that when a defensive player is not right on him he needs to secure the ball first and then look to run people over.  As the game slows down for him there’s no reason to expect he won’t get this under control.

People who never really played the game, don't understand how the game slows down for people

 

When your green, it feels like it's getting played at 10,000 miles per hour and people are everywhere and you hesitate

 

But as someone who's had the game slowed down for him. Once that change happens, you can go from good to great

 

It is not an understatement when I say that people are moving in slow motion and you could literally play instead of think

[CSBill]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I can't believe people actually thought he has a catching/hands problem

 

It was clearly a concentration thing

 

This

[Protocal69]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

This is all fine and dandy.  I love Knox and think he can/will be great.

 

My question is this:  Since every Bills fan saw the problem, I think it's safe to say that McDermott and Daboll realized what the problem was. So .... why the ***** did they keep throwing it to him with Sweeney and, to an extent, Kroft and Smith?

 

At some point, one would think that one of them would say, "this ain't working.  Let's just throw the tough sideline passes to him and leave the over the middle stuff to Sweeney."
 

Anyway, I do believe Knox will fix this and be a force for years to come.

Because the guy has the upside of Kittles and Kelce. It's funny because Kelce is 7 years in and he still drops easy passes for the same reason Knox drops his which is they have the ability to playmakers and not just get 6-7 yards with no after the catch. If Knox and Allen keep progressing Knox will be a star in this league.

[Sherlock Holmes]

5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

You can’t believe he had a catching problem??

 

Why? Did the Tooth Fairy tell you he didn’t?

 

Anyway, his explanation wasn’t necessary. His issues were clear to everyone who saw him play. Better to be smacked down at the point of the catch than change focus at the last second and drop it. He could be the biggest fan favorite since Kyle if he gets this under control. Otherwise, he’ll quickly fall into oblivion.

Yes, I did tell him that...problem?!?!?

[TigerJ]

Yes.  Make sure you have control of the ball BEFORE you run over people.

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Belichick has 7 rings.

 

No he doesn't - he gave one to his buddy in Moscow who used to head of spying agency.

I am assume it was pay back on spying help but he cannot admit it.

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Fair enough. However, given the many positives we’ve already seen, not doing extremely better catching the ball and being demoted to 2nd Team, will inevitably spell the end for a once so promising career. Whatever we may offer him for his second contract will likely be peanuts compared to other offers -given the Wow Plays he’s shown he’s capable of.

 

Color me concerned.

 

If he can't start concentrating and stop dropping passes, he's not worth being more than #2.  It's up to him to fix it. 

[Buffalo Boy]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I was just thinking about Beane creating a culture of accountability.  When he screwed the pooch by going into a season with Peterman starting and rookie Allen as the backup, he came out and admitted he effed up and he made better decisions moving forward.

 

Great to see that from players.

 

It's missing from two people ... McDermott and Daboll.   They have yet to admit/own when they eff up.

 

But this is a Knox thread, so I'm going to get back on topic.

 

I think Knox will fix this issue and be a force for years to come.

They did cut Benjamin?

That counts for something.

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Huh? He caught 39 passes and had 0 tds in 3 years in a pass happy offense. Very good athlete, extremely raw TE.  His hands are absolutely a concern.

So when I played receiver, I’d much rather have a contested catch than the wide open easy one.  As others have said, you just concentrate better.  

Point taken. Still, he needs to catch almost everything. Especially the drive extending catches in big games when it’s crunch time, regardless of the skill required.

[Utah John]

The expression for this I like best is that you have to "look the ball into your hands" which I believe I first heard said by Bud Wilkinson.  This isn't very good grammar but it really makes the point that you have to have the positive, affirmative intention of watching the ball's flight all the way into your hands, and looking at your hands too to make sure they're set properly to make the catch, rather than the more passive idea of seeing it coming and catching it.  Part of the difficulty with not doing so is that your hands no longer are set properly -- you are likely to move them as you visualize what your body is going to do next, to make someone miss or to absorb a hit.

 

Race car drivers say the car goes where your eyes go.  If you keep your eyes on the track you'll stay on the track, but if you're worried about the wall and look at it, you're more likely to hit the wall.  I have learned in my own normal driving that it works on the highway, too. 

 

If your intention is to look the ball into your hands, and concentrate on that rather than the other players on the field, you will be much more accurate in placing your hands and securing the catch.

[MJS]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

McDermott should be a better coach - specifically with gameday coaching and gameday roster management.  So yes ... he absolutely emulate Belichick.

So we agree. McDermott should never own up to his mistakes. Good talk.

[Billy Claude]

56 minutes ago, MJS said:

So we agree. McDermott should never own up to his mistakes. Good talk.

 

I would think that McDermott`s designation of a game management coach in March (Marc Lubick) is essentially an admission that he wasn`t very good at it.

[Mr. WEO]

Maybe Knox should take up speed chess.

 

Or have that chess guy toss the chess pieces at him very fast

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Fair enough. However, given the many positives we’ve already seen, not doing extremely better catching the ball and being demoted to 2nd Team, will inevitably spell the end for a once so promising career. Whatever we may offer him for his second contract will likely be peanuts compared to other offers -given the Wow Plays he’s shown he’s capable of.

 

Color me concerned.

 

Agree he likely would not even sign a 2nd contract with the Bills if for no other reason than the team would value him as a backup and usually the player over values himself and finds some other team willing to take a chance on him with a larger contract than he is worth and goes elsewhere.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

14 hours ago, Gugny said:

This is all fine and dandy.  I love Knox and think he can/will be great.

 

My question is this:  Since every Bills fan saw the problem, I think it's safe to say that McDermott and Daboll realized what the problem was. So .... why the ***** did they keep throwing it to him with Sweeney and, to an extent, Kroft and Smith?

 

At some point, one would think that one of them would say, "this ain't working.  Let's just throw the tough sideline passes to him and leave the over the middle stuff to Sweeney."
 

Anyway, I do believe Knox will fix this and be a force for years to come.

he was probably making plays in practice and then the game speed messed him up. Normal for rooks

Edited July 20, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Doc]

7 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

People who never really played the game, don't understand how the game slows down for people

 

When your green, it feels like it's getting played at 10,000 miles per hour and people are everywhere and you hesitate

 

But as someone who's had the game slowed down for him. Once that change happens, you can go from good to great

 

It is not an understatement when I say that people are moving in slow motion and you could literally play instead of think

 

I don't have it (I wish I did), but I've always believed that's what they call "vision."  I remember a story about Ted Williams being able to read the label off a 78 RPM record playing, which might be a tall tale, but illustrative of it.

 

It seems to follow that as the game slows down for him, he won't need to take his focus off the ball to set himself up because he will be able to process things faster.

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I don't have it (I wish I did), but I've always believed that's what they call "vision."  I remember a story about Ted Williams being able to read the label off a 78 RPM record playing, which might be a tall tale, but illustrative of it.

 

It seems to follow that as the game slows down for him, he won't need to take his focus off the ball to set himself up because he will be able to process things faster.

To me vision and the game slowing down are not mutual

 

The game can slow down for all positions. lineman, RB, QB, CBs etc

 

Vision is more a RBs ability to find holes , like the ability to cut it back and find a lane

 

You will rarely if ever hear anyone talk about a olineman or dlinemans vision

[Dkollidas]

I think he’ll improve this year. 
 

I’m hoping that by the time Brown and Beasleys time here is up, that he’ll be ready to be a #2 target in a legitimate offense. 
 

I’ll be surprised if he could become a guy that’s on the level of an Ertz, but I think it’s definitely possible. 

[reddogblitz]

13 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

I just rewatched Ravens game last year. Josh started with overthrowing everybody but in 2nd half he was mostly spot on, and there were drops left and right. Knox, Beasley and Singletary had all major drops, and Knox had really brutal one. I don't know what was the issue but I really hope he gets better next year. That would be huge for Josh and whole offense.

 

I watched that game the other day.  It was either Josh throws a bad pass or he throws a good pass and it would get dropped. Brown also dropped at least one.

 

I hope Beasley has a similar plan to Knox'. In the Ravens game he had one of his three plays last year where the football ?bounced off his hands into the arms of an awaiting DB.  One in Jets game. One in Ravens game. One in the playoff game.

 

I'm hoping Diggs' good hands rubs off on some of these guys.

[billsintaiwan]

Edited July 20, 2020 by billsintaiwan

[GreggTX]

If his concentration and route running both improve, you're looking at a guy that has deep speed with the ability to run over people. He's my early candidate for most improved if Josh can get him the ball.

[GreggTX]

13 hours ago, Utah John said:

The expression for this I like best is that you have to "look the ball into your hands" which I believe I first heard said by Bud Wilkinson.  This isn't very good grammar but it really makes the point that you have to have the positive, affirmative intention of watching the ball's flight all the way into your hands, and looking at your hands too to make sure they're set properly to make the catch, rather than the more passive idea of seeing it coming and catching it.  Part of the difficulty with not doing so is that your hands no longer are set properly -- you are likely to move them as you visualize what your body is going to do next, to make someone miss or to absorb a hit.

 

Race car drivers say the car goes where your eyes go.  If you keep your eyes on the track you'll stay on the track, but if you're worried about the wall and look at it, you're more likely to hit the wall.  I have learned in my own normal driving that it works on the highway, too. 

 

If your intention is to look the ball into your hands, and concentrate on that rather than the other players on the field, you will be much more accurate in placing your hands and securing the catch.

Good points. I'd also add reaching for the ball and 'pulling it into your body'. That allows you to see best and the ball doesn't bounce off your pads.