Do we have the Deepest D-Line in the league?

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I think thats the hope - having two like good-not-great ends in hughes and addison helps.  And being able to rotate in AJ and Murphy.. moving guys like jefferson around on 3rd downs - it should be able to create pressure.  

I'm personally very excited about AJ. I don't know what everyone else sees, but when I watch him play he seems great. Everyone says he isn't fast enough or athletic enough. I don't see it. He looks like a monster to me and I believe he'll be a great player and a feared pass rusher.

[Royale with Cheese]

Addison will for sure be in group 1.

Harry will be in group 2.  
 

To answer the OP’s question....we are definitely top 3.

[Happy]

27 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I know Murphy is a popular cut in many peoples posts, but i really feel like johnson would have to play really well in camp for it to be justified.  Murphy has forced 4 fumbles, recovered 3  in 2 years, has 9 sacks - and had 2 sacks in the playoff game.  I know in 2018 he was hurt in camp, which probably lingered all season long.  Towards the end of 2019 he was bringing some pretty good pressure.  We'll see what ends up happening, but I think he's got a good chance to stick for the year.

 

I think the sticks around this year; I believe his contract is up for renewal after the 2020 season.  So yeah, it looks like he will stay this year.  I'm not sure why people count on Darryl Johnson, a 5th round (or 6th?) pick from NC A&T; he is depth.  I don't count on him making his presence felt.

 

Murphy has some decent stats, but I suspect more context needs to be applied to his stats.  In other words, I think Murphy amassed his stats in a couple of games against a few favorable matchups rather than anything consistent.  Murphy did have a good playoff game.  I just don't think he'll ever be consistently impactful since he doesn't maintain an edge well, leading to him being picked on in screens, misdirections, and other running plays around his edge.

[Yantha]

4 hours ago, Dkollidas said:

I know they might not be in the top-5 or even top-10 in terms of high end talent (no Von Miller/Myles Garrett type of Freak), but overall I believe we may have the deepest D-Line in the league.

As a base defense, With everyone healthy, we can make two starting caliber defensive lines and have a starting caliber player as my 9th defensive lineman...

 

Group 1:

LDE: Epenesa

1-Tech: Phillips

3-Tech: Oliver

RDE: Hughes

 

Group 2:

LDE: Murphy

1-Tech: Lotulelei

3-Tech: Jefferson

RDE: Addison

 

Extras: Butler & D. Johnson

 

 

Our starting lineup is very good, no doubt.  I'm actually a little higher on Jefferson (if he can stay healthy) over Oliver but I'm sure I'm in the minority on this board.  A 100% healthy Jefferson is one of the better DT's in the league if you look back at what he did in Seattle.  I do still think we could add a replacement for Lotulelei, and Addison as both are average in my opinion.  HOWEVER, saying that, as backups, that's not bad.

 

Best in the league?  Good moves by Beane this offseason for sure!  Epenesa is going to be a difference-maker, and and Jefferson is excellent.  If Oliver goes down, the DL won't miss a beat.

 

I took some heat during the draft by stating that I think that a draftee could actually start on this team.  I agree.....  I overstepped while getting all wound up and excited about the draft.    ME  <------------  eating crow.

 

REALLY what I was so worked up about was my MAJOR dislike for Lotulelei.  I really wanted him gone this year, and replaced with a youngster with starting potential.  I was even holding out AFTER the draft, and hoped that we would land UDFA Benito Jones, and/or Raekwon Williams, both of which I think WOULD make our roster at least on the practice squad.

 

So yes, this is a great DL now that Beane made some changes over last year.  We were average against the run and while that has to do with linebacker play as well, I just didn't see our guys eating up blocks and/or making their way into quarterbacks faces often enough.

 

This year we will see an improvement.

 

Can't wait!!!

[auburnbillsbacker]

3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Our DL depth is fantastic.  I can't remember a time when it was better.

But let me ask, Addison doesn't start?   The guy's had 39 sacks in the past 4 years.

I cant imagine him not starting.

 

[Bills Survivor]

The versatility of guys like Jefferson, Epenesa, and even Oliver to line up from multiple different positions and still be effective is going to be fun to watch.  There will be countless different combinations of four guys you could throw at an offense in any given situation.  The fact that they will all be fresh in a heavy rotation will just add to the chaos for opposing offenses.  Really excited to see our D in action.  

[ngbills]

The Bills DL and much of its roster are really an example of depth vs star power. A group of players that the talent level doesn't drop much but also does not have the elite level player either. I think the positional groups are all impacted differently here. If I am building a team I want an elite pass rusher and elite WR. The rest of the roster I want the depth approach. Well QB obviously I take the elite QB vs mediocre depth. But OL I want depth and ability to plug and play as they really depend on the unit as a whole. I would make the same argument with the secondary as they must work together and the sum can be better than the parts. LB's I want as many capable bodies as I can find. RB by committee as shown to work. QB, WR and Edge Rusher are much about isolation and winning one on one battles. So 5 Cole Beasley's vs 1 Michael Thomas and a Cole Beasley with a Robert Foster and a Duke Williams wins. 

[No_Matter_What]

Not an answer to OP, but isn't it like 99% sure that someone gets traded until W1? There is not a reasonable way how to keep 10 DL on a roster, is it?

[Bangarang]

We are among the deepest and I’m looking forward to watching them crush QBs and RBs.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

5 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I don’t get the Phillips love. I’ve seen it a bunch on here. Butler or Star will start with Oliver. Whoever doesn’t will get the other side of an almost 50-50 split. Phillips has accomplished nothing, looked small and overmatch, and is coming off a serious injury. I get that Phillips looks like Kyle and is all Bills Mafia and stuff, but they did not sign Butler to be a third string depth player. That’s Harrison Phillips. 
 

Edit: And I really like Phillips and would not count him out, but penciling him in as a starter at the 1 tech on a team with Butler and Star, and coming off a major injury just makes no sense.

Phillips looked great before the injury last year. He was better than Star.

[MrSarcasm]

Answer- I don't know.

 

What I do know is every hardcore fan knows the depth the OP is talking about for HIS team and then knows diddly about other teams depth. So in reality we can't say.  

 

[ChattanoogaBills]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

I'm personally very excited about AJ. I don't know what everyone else sees, but when I watch him play he seems great. Everyone says he isn't fast enough or athletic enough. I don't see it. He looks like a monster to me and I believe he'll be a great player and a feared pass rusher.

I agree with your view on Epenesa. I think the bend thing is overblown when you see how well he uses his hands and leverage.

Bend is needed more for pure speed rushers to keep from being pushed upfield past the QB. I think Epenesa will average 10+ sacks a season for his career. 

For those wanting us to still sign Clowney. 

I heard and read alot of Seahawk fans and team reporters more upset they lost Q. Jefferson than Clowney.

Im definitely excited to see what Jefferson will add to the Dline. As I've heard he may be the steal of free agency.

[TPS]

3 hours ago, eball said:

 

You must be channeling Mark Gaughan of The Buffalo News; he wrote about this yesterday.  The "first four" aren't the best in the league but nobody can rotate 10 guys like the Bills can, which is perfect for McD's style of defense.  They are going to have to let one or two pretty good players go (or try to trade them) because it's unlikely they go with more than 9 on the 53.

 

Nice problem to have.

Was looking to see if someone would bring this up. When you look at the teams with so-called stars, those players typically see over 75% of the snaps. For example, teams that also run a 4-3, SF had Armstead and Bosa with 75% of the D snaps; Jax had Campbell and Ngoukwe  > 75%.  For the Bills, Hughes and Murphy were about 65%. Over the course of a game, you would expect the rotation to have a stronger impact.  Would be interesting to dig into the numbers on first half vs second....

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, MrSarcasm said:

Answer- I don't know.

 

What I do know is every hardcore fan knows the depth the OP is talking about for HIS team and then knows diddly about other teams depth. So in reality we can't say.  

 

Exactly. Most people knew nothing about Jefferson, Butler, Addison before we signed them. On another team we would not be talking about them being the best DL. They come hear and clearly they are awesome. It is the nature of being a fan. 

[njbuff]

I'd say when the discussion starts, the Bills names will be amongst the first ones to be thrown out there.

 

They go 5 deep at DT and DE, including Jefferson who can be virtually any position.

 

Most around here don't like Murphy, but he is pretty good in a rotation.

 

High draft choices Phillips, Oliver and Epeneas the last three years can take this team's D over the top.

[Buffalo716]

7 hours ago, Dkollidas said:

I know they might not be in the top-5 or even top-10 in terms of high end talent (no Von Miller/Myles Garrett type of Freak), but overall I believe we may have the deepest D-Line in the league.

As a base defense, With everyone healthy, we can make two starting caliber defensive lines and have a starting caliber player as my 9th defensive lineman...

 

Group 1:

LDE: Epenesa

1-Tech: Phillips

3-Tech: Oliver

RDE: Hughes

 

Group 2:

LDE: Murphy

1-Tech: Lotulelei

3-Tech: Jefferson

RDE: Addison

 

Extras: Butler & D. Johnson

 

 

If you are going to group the DTs by their technique you should do the same for the ends because they don't have the same role

 

Sean usually employs a 9 technique end and a 7 technique , sometimes 5 ,which have completely different jobs

Edited April 28, 2020 by Buffalo716

[njbuff]

3 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I think the sticks around this year; I believe his contract is up for renewal after the 2020 season.  So yeah, it looks like he will stay this year.  I'm not sure why people count on Darryl Johnson, a 5th round (or 6th?) pick from NC A&T; he is depth.  I don't count on him making his presence felt.

 

Murphy has some decent stats, but I suspect more context needs to be applied to his stats.  In other words, I think Murphy amassed his stats in a couple of games against a few favorable matchups rather than anything consistent.  Murphy did have a good playoff game.  I just don't think he'll ever be consistently impactful since he doesn't maintain an edge well, leading to him being picked on in screens, misdirections, and other running plays around his edge.

 

That is my biggest gripe with Murphy...... consistency.

 

And, at worst, Johnson the only DL contributor on ST, so he has that going for him. But he might be better than you give him credit for as he was in the rotation a lot of the times during the season.

[billsbackto81]

7 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Our DL depth is fantastic.  I can't remember a time when it was better.

But let me ask, Addison doesn't start?   The guy's had 39 sacks in the past 4 years.

Agree. 

Unless Epenesa totally blows up training camp and becomes virtually unstoppable I don't see him starting over the vet Addison.

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Addison will for sure be in group 1.

Harry will be in group 2.  
 

To answer the OP’s question....we are definitely top 3.

yes

and yes
and yes. Nice place to be as I am sure that was McBeanes goal.

next draft? LBs lots of em !

In every shape and form to defend against any sort of defense  lol

[3rdand12]

15 minutes ago, njbuff said:

I'd say when the discussion starts, the Bills names will be amongst the first ones to be thrown out there.

 

They go 5 deep at DT and DE, including Jefferson who can be virtually any position.

 

Most around here don't like Murphy, but he is pretty good in a rotation.

 

High draft choices Phillips, Oliver and Epeneas the last three years can take this team's D over the top.

It is a good post. That have another sort of rotation working in as well.
Age. Solid vets, each one. Who are leaders and likely can teach quite a bit.
 3 -5 years from now you refill the well. Simple genius

Develop players to best players they can be , and then teach them to mentor the next generation. Solid Coaching method for the NFL. Simple and very effective for long term excellence.

 

and other team sport i imagine ??                          Maybe Sabres need some McBeanes running the show lol

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

Not an answer to OP, but isn't it like 99% sure that someone gets traded until W1? There is not a reasonable way how to keep 10 DL on a roster, is it?

 

No. I think Murphy gets flipped. 

[njbuff]

4 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

Not an answer to OP, but isn't it like 99% sure that someone gets traded until W1? There is not a reasonable way how to keep 10 DL on a roster, is it?

 

There is no reason to get rid of anyone yet. Injuries happen, and usually do, so it's good to have the depth, until you don't. ?

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

Exactly. Most people knew nothing about Jefferson, Butler, Addison before we signed them. On another team we would not be talking about them being the best DL. They come hear and clearly they are awesome. It is the nature of being a fan. 

I don’t know much about Butler,  but I definitely knew of Addison and Jefferson... those two are damn good players.  

[BillsVet]

Buffalo's DL depth largely is geared toward stopping the run and less so rushing the passer.  Of those players on the roster, Hughes, Oliver, (EDIT: Addison) and perhaps Murphy are the guys who might regularly get to the QB.  The rest are either unproven or not pass rushers.  

 

The key to good defense now is getting impact plays like sacks, INT's and fumble recoveries, not being strong against the run.  Buffalo collected 14 INTs, 9 fumble recoveries, and 44 sacks which combined ranked 11th in the NFL.    

Edited April 29, 2020 by BillsVet

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

Buffalo's DL depth largely is geared toward stopping the run and less so rushing the passer.  Of those players on the roster, Hughes, Oliver, (EDIT: Addison) and perhaps Murphy are the guys who might regularly get to the QB.  The rest are either unproven or not pass rushers.  

 

The key to good defense now is getting impact plays like sacks, INT's and fumble recoveries, not being strong against the run.  Buffalo collected 14 INTs, 9 fumble recoveries, and 44 sacks which combined ranked 11th in the NFL.    

Hughes, Oliver, Addison and Epenesa are all pass rushers.  
 

Epenesa didn’t start playing run downs until this past year.  
 

Jefferson had 4 sacks as a rotation piece last year and is a guy the Seahawks fans thought they should pay as they believe he could easily double that number in a bigger role.  

 

[TigerJ]

Beane is going to try and trade somebody from this group in August, probably Trent Murphy.  He'll only get a late round pick, but that's better than cutting a guy who will end up playing elsewhere.

[MrSarcasm]

2 hours ago, ngbills said:

Exactly. Most people knew nothing about Jefferson, Butler, Addison before we signed them. On another team we would not be talking about them being the best DL. They come hear and clearly they are awesome. It is the nature of being a fan. 

Exactly. I'm a fan and have been since I was 6 but I've seen my share of moody fans and know how it is----

'Trent Edward's is sooo good and needs to start' turns into 'Captain checkdown needs to go'

 

If people would just give it a season before jumping on or off the wagon they might save themselves a few bucks on a shrink.

 

[MrEpsYtown]

I also have to mention the Redskins

 

Chase Young

Ryan Kerrigan

Montez Sweat

Ryan Anderson

Jordan Brailford

Da’Ron Payne

Jonathan Allen

Tim Settle

Matt Ioannidis

[GunnerBill]

26 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I also have to mention the Redskins

 

Chase Young

Ryan Kerrigan

Montez Sweat

Ryan Anderson

Jordan Brailford

Da’Ron Payne

Jonathan Allen

Tim Settle

Matt Ioannidis

 

Good call that is a really good group. Shame about you know.... the rest of their roster. ?

[SCBills]

I would say our DL is more of a Top 7 group.  
 

Going to need Oliver to make a jump and Epenesa to be the real deal in order to become a Top 3 group.  
 

I have faith Hughes and Addison are both going to be very good, but Jefferson, Harry, Butler are all somewhat unknowns in what they’ll bring to the table this year. 

[Chandler#81]

14 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I don’t get the Phillips love. I’ve seen it a bunch on here. Butler or Star will start with Oliver. Whoever doesn’t will get the other side of an almost 50-50 split. Phillips has accomplished nothing, looked small and overmatch, and is coming off a serious injury. I get that Phillips looks like Kyle and is all Bills Mafia and stuff, but they did not sign Butler to be a third string depth player. That’s Harrison Phillips. 
 

Edit: And I really like Phillips and would not count him out, but penciling him in as a starter at the 1 tech on a team with Butler and Star, and coming off a major injury just makes no sense.

Speaking as the ‘Cut Man’, you fought the good fight here. With few evident skills, you stood toe to toe in the middle of the ring throwing haymakers. But ya gotcherazzkicked. Now, sit down, shut up and lemme look at that eye..

13 hours ago, Logic said:

The only thing I agree with is that, due to injury, he won't start right away, and it may take him a while to work back into the rotation.

Other than that, I disagree. Last year, before he got injured, it was clear as day that he was outplaying Star at 1T. I fully believe that, had he not been injured, he was going to overtake the lion's share of reps and the "starter" designation from Star. Not only was he doing his job well and occupying multiple blockers and defending the run well, he was also collapsing the pocket at times and getting great penetration. His injury happening when it did was a real shame.

YOU, Sir, have fighting skills!?

11 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

No,  it's about quality and there is nothing but average talent on the line. Guys like Murphy making around 10 million do not help at all.

We all feel the same way about your football knowledge and posts. (P.S. it isn’t your $$)

4 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Buffalo's DL depth largely is geared toward stopping the run and less so rushing the passer.  Of those players on the roster, Hughes, Oliver, (EDIT: Addison) and perhaps Murphy are the guys who might regularly get to the QB.  The rest are either unproven or not pass rushers.  

 

The key to good defense now is getting impact plays like sacks, INT's and fumble recoveries, not being strong against the run.  Buffalo collected 14 INTs, 9 fumble recoveries, and 44 sacks which combined ranked 11th in the NFL.    

You’re conveniently omitting a key DL stat to further your narrative -and it’s understandable as it doesn’t have one true metric name. Batted balls/Passes knocked down/tipped passes/deflected passes. These don’t show up in standard game stats, but are EVERY bit as important as hurries or incompletions. When they happen on 3rd down, does it matter that you didn’t get a sack, fumble or deep interception? The Bills have routinely been among League leaders in this metric, pushing their merit higher.

[Pbomb]

15 hours ago, Logic said:

The only thing I agree with is that, due to injury, he won't start right away, and it may take him a while to work back into the rotation.

Other than that, I disagree. Last year, before he got injured, it was clear as day that he was outplaying Star at 1T. I fully believe that, had he not been injured, he was going to overtake the lion's share of reps and the "starter" designation from Star. Not only was he doing his job well and occupying multiple blockers and defending the run well, he was also collapsing the pocket at times and getting great penetration. His injury happening when it did was a real shame.

I agree, if I recall correctly it wasn’t til he went down that our run defense struggles began last year. 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

17 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I don’t get the Phillips love. I’ve seen it a bunch on here. Butler or Star will start with Oliver. Whoever doesn’t will get the other side of an almost 50-50 split. Phillips has accomplished nothing, looked small and overmatch, and is coming off a serious injury. I get that Phillips looks like Kyle and is all Bills Mafia and stuff, but they did not sign Butler to be a third string depth player. That’s Harrison Phillips. 
 

Edit: And I really like Phillips and would not count him out, but penciling him in as a starter at the 1 tech on a team with Butler and Star, and coming off a major injury just makes no sense.

Harrison Phillips, is your ideal defensive tackle rusher on third down in the way Joe Gibbs, structured his Redskins Defense in the 80's and early 90's with how they used Butz and Gathers, line them up over the center use there power on third down to push the offensive guards into the backfield causing the opposing Qb to take deeper steps in the pocket were Ends like Mann and Manley got to sack the Quarterback.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

not sure how this might be relevant but this thread mentions Mario Addison frequently when I searched. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ramza86]

Very happy with the line if healthy. Hard to say though.

[Mr. K]

Lets see how good they are with the new pieces. If you want to crown them, go ahead and crown them. Im excited to see what Epenesa and Oliver look like together.

[BBills88]

We can be as deep as we want, I hope we are tough and play mean. 

Like the Eagles, Ravens, 49er's just to name a few

[BillsVet]

9 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

You’re conveniently omitting a key DL stat to further your narrative -and it’s understandable as it doesn’t have one true metric name. Batted balls/Passes knocked down/tipped passes/deflected passes. These don’t show up in standard game stats, but are EVERY bit as important as hurries or incompletions. When they happen on 3rd down, does it matter that you didn’t get a sack, fumble or deep interception? The Bills have routinely been among League leaders in this metric, pushing their merit higher.

 

I look at defense from the standpoint of impact plays: INTs, forced fumbles, and sacks.  You can always debate which events on defense are most important, but swinging the momentum typically comes on defense with those results.  And, it gets the ball into your offense's hands more to score points.    

 

Buffalo didn't lose much talent from their 2019 defense, yet they added 4 DL in the draft and UFA.  To me, that's a lot of resources put into a unit that had already contributed to being 2nd in points allowed.  I don't think the loss of Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson really hurts them significantly.  I also recognize they needed to be replaced, and Epenesa probably fits into the role of base 40 front end.  

 

Still, is that investment likely to contribute to more wins against a more difficult 2020 schedule?  That question will be answered in short order.  

 

In the interim, per Spotrac, Buffalo is investing about 23% of their current cap dollars in the DL.  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/breakdown/  Perhaps they have the flexibility to continue that trend when Tre White, Dawkins, Milano, and Allen come up for contracts in 2020-21 although it's hard to tell because the cap is very flexible.

 

   

 

The point remains that player investment on defense should be centered on who provides impact plays and of course, on the offense.  That to me is what makes good teams excellent and improves the W-L record.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Eh.  Hughes is a 5 sack player, Addison is at an age where production can fall off a cliff, Star is one dimensional, and Murphy is an average to below average JAG.  I do really like the young guys. Oliver can be a Star and at worst AJ is going to be a very solid starter for a while (I don’t think he’ll ever be an elite rusher but a 7-10 sack guy).  Phillips, who i loved, hasn’t proven a ton yet.  But there is talent but I think it will be a need after the year.

[JerseyBills]

I think Addison 

On 4/28/2020 at 11:42 AM, hondo in seattle said:

 

Our DL depth is fantastic.  I can't remember a time when it was better.

But let me ask, Addison doesn't start?   The guy's had 39 sacks in the past 4 years.

Ya I was going to reply the same. He's an elite DE, stops run as well. He's going to be tough to keep off the first unit. 

 

But ya , this line is deep and talented.

 

This is the type of DLs u see playing in February. Alot of versatility and nastiness on them.