PFF Baker is still better than Allen & Tre isn't in their top 101 players

[Big Turk]

13 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Mayfield throws for a mere 2 more tds while tossing 12 more int’s than Allen. Also posts a significantly lower qb rating.... all while having OBJ and landry at his disposal... and he was better than Allen? Solid take there

 

and the tre white stuff is comically absurd. They had 18 other cb’s ranked ahead of him by seasons end. That’s absolutely HILARIOUS. The man was voted 1st team ALL PRO!!!!! 
 

Some of the other leftovers on that list are equally as bad... I honestly used to sort of respect PFF as a SMALL tool in the evaluation toolbox. It’s very clear I was giving them way too much credit. 

 

This is what happens when you simply watch plays without understanding WHAT the play was supposed to be or WHO the primary read was and if the QB did what he was supposed to do or not on the play. They cannot legitimately grade players without knowing these things which makes their grades relatively meaningless.

[Stank_Nasty]

2 hours ago, GreggTX said:

They totally whiffed on White, but I can't argue about the Mayfield/Allen comparison.

if you have seen the numbers comparisons going around in this thread and cant argue the comparison.... then you are just flat out lost. 

 

its frightens me when I find out there are people walking around the world like this trying to do everyday things that may involve basic reason or common sense.

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Date of article is June 2014 which makes it interesting because they were predicting that Tom Brady was no longer elite.  Guy's been to 4 Superbowls and won 3 since then.

 

Key quote (emphasis theirs)

 

Belichick then went on to talk about watching opposing team’s game films and the impossibilities of knowing what happened:

But believe me, I’ve watched plenty of preseason games this time of year and you’re looking at all the other teams in the league and you try to evaluate players and you’re watching the teams that we’re going to play early in the season and there are plenty of plays where I have no idea what went wrong. Something’s wrong but I don’t…these two guys made a mistake but I don’t know which guy it was or if it was both of them. You just don’t know that. I don’t know how you can know that unless you’re really part of the team and know exactly what was supposed to happen on that play. I know there are a lot of experts out there that have it all figured out but I definitely don’t. This time of year, sometimes it’s hard to figure that out, exactly what they’re trying to do. When somebody makes a mistake, whose mistake is it?

Bill Belichick doesn’t have it figured out. But Pro Football Focus does? They can provide a grade on every play?

 

and

 

Lastly, I hesitate to bring this part up, but part of me wonders the qualifications for doing this work. It feels like me taking a job to to play-by-play film breakdown on the Premier League.  What are the football coaching or scouting backgrounds for these UK analysts making these grades? Is there anyone on staff with an NFL background?

 

Bolded my emphasis because I did not realize PFF was based in the UK and therefore, unless they are importing film graders from the US, they likely lack the experience of even a DI college player in the states.

 

They lack a ton. They are Cain Fahey level insignificant.

[Jauronimo]

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Those uppers.....

Thats not nice, shes very shy.  So shy that I heard Josh rubs peanut butter on her gums before social occasions to get her to appear to talk.

[C.Biscuit97]

This is like the people who spend all their complaining how awful and biased CNN and Fox News are yet they watch them everyday and get mad about it. 

[hondo in seattle]

There's a website somewhere on the internet that uses flawed methodology to rate NFL players.

Why do we care?

[Alphadawg7]

Honestly doesn't surprise me at all.  PFF has just become laughable at their evaluations across the league.  

[thurst44]

11 hours ago, MJS said:

Not really surprised about Baker and Allen. Clear to me who the winner of those two is, though. The guy who got his team to the playoffs.

 

Not having Tre White, first team all-pro, on your top 100 list? That's hilarious. He stacks up in every statistical category as an elite corner... except his PFF grade? Haha. Ok. I sure hope Tre sees this and wants to prove them how wrong they are. Same with Allen, for that matter.

The weirdest thing is PFF LOVED Tre his rookie year. He was their DROY. Still a bit baffled how they can argue that a guy who led the league in interceptions, was second in QBR against, and who did not allow a single TD in a season is regressing and not even a top 10 cornerback. If your metric does not put a guy like that even in your top 100 players, it's probably your metric that's wrong.

 

Also, have they ever talked about Sean McDermott, because given he's one of four teams that don't even have one top 101 player, he's got his team solidly in the playoffs. They must believe he's the second coming of Lombardi (or at least the love child of Belichick and Reid).

[Tenhigh]

47 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

There's a website somewhere on the internet that uses flawed methodology to rate NFL players.

Why do we care?

Because they are trying to steal Nextmanup's and Mongo's jobs!!!

They took errrr jobs!!!!

[CorkScrewHill]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Exactly. If people knew the work that these Quality Control Assistants do to watch plays 5, 6, 7 times in a row from each of 3 different views just to get a feel for one player’s assignment on a given play, they’d realize that the only value that PFF offers is in their data acquisition. Snap counts, formations, etc. That’s the value.

Don't forget the pretty graphics, the data must be right because the presentation is so nicely done!

 

Kudos to them for making a business by spouting opinion but selling it as facts ...

[Ramza86]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

They have wives?  I thought they were in love with their computer models

 

I'm convinced Allen has better things to do, like a live girl model.  I mean

 

I don't want to ping this site's 'sexual content' filter by putting the pictures in but

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8Nr6D9gMCC/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8UGX5dgZ5E/

Enjoy the scenery!

 

 

 

Anyone else think our boy Josh can do way better?

 

Unless shes a really great person and the love is real. Nom sayin.

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

 

Anyone else think our boy Josh can do way better?

 

Unless shes a really great person and the love is real. Nom sayin.

They’ve been together almost 4 years.

[CorkScrewHill]

5 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

 

Anyone else think our boy Josh can do way better?

 

Unless shes a really great person and the love is real. Nom sayin.

Seriously .. talking about the looks of a wife / girlfriend on this site a) has nothing to do with football; and b) says a lot about the people making the comments.

 

Really, really pathetic!

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

 

Anyone else think our boy Josh can do way better?

 

Unless shes a really great person and the love is real. Nom sayin.

Not to be mean because she certainly is attractive but I’m not perving out like some posters over her.  It reminds me about the Tannehill wife comments.  Never got the hype. And of course a millionaire football player could get a physically hotter girl.  But love is about more than that and she’s certainly attractive.  

Just now, CorkScrewHill said:

Seriously .. talking about the looks of a wife / girlfriend on this site a) has nothing to do with football; and b) says a lot about the people making the comments.

 

Really, really pathetic!

Sad!

 

but my rule of thumb is never comment about a person’s girlfriend or wife.  Once they start dating someone, they cease to exist to me.  It’s bad karma. 

[Ramza86]

Just now, CorkScrewHill said:

Seriously .. talking about the looks of a wife / girlfriend on this site a) has nothing to do with football; and b) says a lot about the people making the comments.

 

Really, really pathetic!

 

[Bermuda Triangle]

These clowns clearly thrive off of taking shots at Bills players, and off of annoying Bills fans.

 

They're paid trolls, much like Sullivan used to be.

[wiley16350]

The reason Allen doesn't rank high in the PFF system is because he wasn't good throwing over 30 yards and he had too many turnovers.  It is as simple as that.  They have admitted that Allen was top 10 in the short to intermediate game according to their system.  The problem with their system is that it weighs too heavily on big plays vs turnovers, the 2 areas Allen struggled the most.  What they fail to recognize is that Allen's turnover problem isn't necessarily something that is not fixable.  Jameis Winston throws a lot of interceptions every year because he makes bad decisions of every type and has never shown the ability to be something different.  Allen on the other hand had most of his interceptions in the first half of the season and most of them were because he tried to play hero ball when the offense was struggling.  Allen wasn't throwing interceptions because he didn't understand what the defense was doing, he threw them in spite of knowing exactly what was happening.  That is why he was able to fix it and why the Allen of the second half of the season is more likely to be the player he will be.  The second half of the season saw Allen fumbling too much but how much of that really defines what kind of QB Allen will be?  Fumbles have a lot to do with luck and protection and even if it isn't, it can still be easily fixed.  The point is, it is reasonable to expect that this will be the worst year for Allen in the number of turnovers, especially if the team around him continues to improve.  The other area where Allen wasn't that good was in deep ball accuracy and there was a multitude of reasons for that but ultimately, for most QB's, deep ball accuracy isn't stable from year to year.  Tom Brady would be the most notable great QB that has never been consistently good at throwing the deep ball.  So the 2 things Allen was bad at this year are the 2 things that aren't stable from year to year (deep passing and turnovers).  For those reasons, there is no reason to believe Allen won't be better next year and that's what frustrates me most about PFF; they have an expectation of Allen not getting any better than he was this year.

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, wiley16350 said:

The reason Allen doesn't rank high in the PFF system is because he wasn't good throwing over 30 yards and he had too many turnovers.  It is as simple as that.  They have admitted that Allen was top 10 in the short to intermediate game according to their system.  The problem with their system is that it weighs too heavily on big plays vs turnovers, the 2 areas Allen struggled the most.  What they fail to recognize is that Allen's turnover problem isn't necessarily something that is not fixable.  Jameis Winston throws a lot of interceptions every year because he makes bad decisions of every type and has never shown the ability to be something different.  Allen on the other hand had most of his interceptions in the first half of the season and most of them were because he tried to play hero ball when the offense was struggling.  Allen wasn't throwing interceptions because he didn't understand what the defense was doing, he threw them in spite of knowing exactly what was happening.  That is why he was able to fix it and why the Allen of the second half of the season is more likely to be the player he will be.  The second half of the season saw Allen fumbling too much but how much of that really defines what kind of QB Allen will be?  Fumbles have a lot to do with luck and protection and even if it isn't, it can still be easily fixed.  The point is, it is reasonable to expect that this will be the worst year for Allen in the number of turnovers, especially if the team around him continues to improve.  The other area where Allen wasn't that good was in deep ball accuracy and there was a multitude of reasons for that but ultimately, for most QB's, deep ball accuracy isn't stable from year to year.  Tom Brady would be the most notable great QB that has never been consistently good at throwing the deep ball.  So the 2 things Allen was bad at this year are the 2 things that aren't stable from year to year (deep passing and turnovers).  For those reasons, there is no reason to believe Allen won't be better next year and that's what frustrates me most about PFF; they have an expectation of Allen not getting any better than he was this year.

 

All of this is well and fine.... Mayfield still had 10 more turnovers than Allen. They're worthless shills and they're biased against Josh. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by whatdrought

[wiley16350]

2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

All of this is well and fine.... Mayfield still had 10 more turnovers than Allen. They're worthless shills and they're biased against Josh. 

Actually Mayfield only had 4 more turnovers than Allen when you combine fumbles and Interceptions.  I do believe they're biased against Josh because I see it in their writings and the things they say.  I don't know how much that effects the grade but I do know that it distorts the narrative they have about him.  My post wasn't to defend PFF, it was to explain why their rating of Allen is what it is.  I think the rating is flawed because they put too much weight on big plays and not enough on the short to intermediate game that is necessary to win in the NFL.  Big plays matter but just the threat alone can be enough to make a team successful if their really good at the short and intermediate.  When it comes to grading QB's, I don't like their system mostly because of that.

[whatdrought]

12 minutes ago, wiley16350 said:

Actually Mayfield only had 4 more turnovers than Allen when you combine fumbles and Interceptions.  I do believe they're biased against Josh because I see it in their writings and the things they say.  I don't know how much that effects the grade but I do know that it distorts the narrative they have about him.  My post wasn't to defend PFF, it was to explain why their rating of Allen is what it is.  I think the rating is flawed because they put too much weight on big plays and not enough on the short to intermediate game that is necessary to win in the NFL.  Big plays matter but just the threat alone can be enough to make a team successful if their really good at the short and intermediate.  When it comes to grading QB's, I don't like their system mostly because of that.

 

Mayfield: 21 interceptions + 2 fumbles lost = 23

Allen: 9 interceptions = 4 fumbles lost = 13

 

23-13 = 10.

 

Also worth noting Josh had +4 tds. 

 

I gotcha... PFF's problem is that they ignore football and look at arbitrary statistics that don't mean *****. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is really all that needs to be said about the conversation, honestly. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any metric that has enough weight to remove all of the above statistics in this conversation. Maybe just straight up QB wins, but we know who has more of those as well. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by whatdrought

[technobot]

Allen will get all the love if he can improve his deep ball accuracy. The kid is a playmaker missing a big part of the game to make him a complete weapon. I think we all agree he's never going to be Mr Hyper Accurate; I don't think he needs to. Between his arm, hitting the deep ball, and his running, his ceiling is high indeed. Getting him a "catch anything in his vicinity" type would help immensely (sorry for the Captain Obvious observation since that type of receiver helps any quarterback) but Allen moreso. It was a little shocking watching him miss so many earlier in the year; it's frustrating as well since many of those throws are probably touchdowns.

  

There's no guarantees but if Jordan Palmer is right (let's face it his job is to say everything is going to be AWESOME), then Allen makes a quantum leap this year and those misses/near misses become touchdowns or at least easy red zone opportunities. He could finish in the 30+ TD passes range, along with whatever he runs for; this puts him in Lamar Jackson territory. If that happens (big if) it will be amusing to watch the analysts trip over themselves to correct their takes. Or in the case of Football Outsiders: to come up with increasingly outrageous reasons why it's all a mirage and Josh is still a scrub.

[Romie]

Lol he's got something personal against Allen. No need for the jab there.  Why did he pick Allen?  He forgot Darnold and Rosen.

[Mark Vader]

3 hours ago, thurst44 said:

The weirdest thing is PFF LOVED Tre his rookie year. He was their DROY. Still a bit baffled how they can argue that a guy who led the league in interceptions, was second in QBR against, and who did not allow a single TD in a season is regressing and not even a top 10 cornerback. If your metric does not put a guy like that even in your top 100 players, it's probably your metric that's wrong.

 

Also, have they ever talked about Sean McDermott, because given he's one of four teams that don't even have one top 101 player, he's got his team solidly in the playoffs. They must believe he's the second coming of Lombardi (or at least the love child of Belichick and Reid).

They hate White now because he made Duck Hodges look bad on that interception play he made against him.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

1 hour ago, Romie said:

Lol he's got something personal against Allen. No need for the jab there.  Why did he pick Allen?  He forgot Darnold and Rosen.

Well, this is what you may chalk up to an "agenda" type item, where their pre-draft analysis has to be proven mostly right after the fact (whoopsies on that Rosen #3 and Rudolph #4 ranking...) and they heavily pushed Mayfield all the way at #1 to take. This article may or may not be paywall:

 https://buffalonews.com/2018/04/12/why-pff-low-popular-bills-mock-draft-target-josh-allen-mayfield-rosen-darnold-jackson-rudolph-pro-football-focus-quarterback/

 

"In researching Allen, one prominent dissenting opinion comes from the analytic site Pro Football Focus. While most outlets consider Allen to be in the mix with USC's Sam Darnold, UCLA's Josh Rosen and Oklahoma's Baker Mayfield for the top four spots in a very deep quarterback class, PFF's draft guide ranks Allen a distant sixth, plugging him below Oklahoma State's Mason Rudolph and Louisville's Lamar Jackson.

Allen ranks 35th on their Big Board, making him a fringe first-round prospect at best."

 

 

[atlbillsfan1975]

Isn’t PFF the site that said Duck was better than Allen?

[MJS]

3 hours ago, wiley16350 said:

Actually Mayfield only had 4 more turnovers than Allen when you combine fumbles and Interceptions.  I do believe they're biased against Josh because I see it in their writings and the things they say.  I don't know how much that effects the grade but I do know that it distorts the narrative they have about him.  My post wasn't to defend PFF, it was to explain why their rating of Allen is what it is.  I think the rating is flawed because they put too much weight on big plays and not enough on the short to intermediate game that is necessary to win in the NFL.  Big plays matter but just the threat alone can be enough to make a team successful if their really good at the short and intermediate.  When it comes to grading QB's, I don't like their system mostly because of that.

I don't think they rate running and fumbling for QB's, do they?

[CincyBillsFan]

5 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

Mayfield: 21 interceptions + 2 fumbles lost = 23

Allen: 9 interceptions = 4 fumbles lost = 13

 

23-13 = 10.

 

Also worth noting Josh had +4 tds. 

 

I gotcha... PFF's problem is that they ignore football and look at arbitrary statistics that don't mean *****. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is really all that needs to be said about the conversation, honestly. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any metric that has enough weight to remove all of the above statistics in this conversation. Maybe just straight up QB wins, but we know who has more of those as well. 

 

 

And they forgot to factor in QB rushing #'s:

 

Allen =  109 rushes for 510 yards generating 42 first downs

 

Mayfield = 28 rushes for 141 yards generating 15 first downs.

 

IMO PFF has no credibility in their rankings.

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

They hate White now because he made Duck Hodges look bad on that interception play he made against him.

 

Well hey then where's our dose o' Poyer and Levi Wallace "PFF Hate" cuz they too picked that Duck clean!?

 

Poyer under-valued Again!  And while you're at it, PFF-boys, can you hate on Shaq, Trent, and Milano?  All fumbles forced in that game....

 

?

[HOUSE]

PFF never lies, this has me very concerned

[BuffaloBill963]

21 hours ago, CNY315 said:

Wow. A 1st team All-Pro isn't a top 101 player lmao

Their formula is just way too advanced for us normies

[Beast]

You will hear more informative football talk at your neighborhood watering hole on a Tuesday night than you will ever find at PFF.

[4merper4mer]

PFF Update: Mayfield caught soliciting hummers behind the Cheesecake Factory but he is still having a better offseason than Allen.

[JerseyBills]

9 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

Mayfield: 21 interceptions + 2 fumbles lost = 23

Allen: 9 interceptions = 4 fumbles lost = 13

 

23-13 = 10.

 

Also worth noting Josh had +4 tds. 

 

I gotcha... PFF's problem is that they ignore football and look at arbitrary statistics that don't mean *****. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is really all that needs to be said about the conversation, honestly. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any metric that has enough weight to remove all of the above statistics in this conversation. Maybe just straight up QB wins, but we know who has more of those as well. 

PFF is trying to analyze a game they know nothing about. Not a knock to any guys that never played but love the game. I only played til senior in high school. 

 

The value of players is determined by so much more than the raw numbers. It's just like the Tre White or any Bill not being in the top 101 players.  Tre would be a top 3 CB pick for me if I'm a GM. I bet at least 30 Gms agree Him and Allen are dogs , they listen to their eternal voices , they lead by example and the list goes on. 

 

I could give two Fs what his player grade is from a system that is flawed beyond belief , don't take situational football into account and they're just a mess..

 

All I care about - Do I think Josh Allen can bring a Lombardi to Buffalo and my gut always says Yes. 

 

The rest is irrelevant

Edited February 12, 2020 by JerseyBills

[CorkScrewHill]

https://thebuffalofanatics.com/2020/02/11/why-sports-media-hates-josh-allen/
 

well done article that lays out the reasons the media can be so harsh on Josh. He will be following up with why people give Josh too much praise in his next article 

[HOUSE]

Can we just ban PFF from the board ?

 

 

 

 

[wiley16350]

14 hours ago, MJS said:

I don't think they rate running and fumbling for QB's, do they?

They include all aspects of QB play in the overall grade and have separate grades for passing and running.

[Don Otreply]

23 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

Mayfield: 21 interceptions + 2 fumbles lost = 23

Allen: 9 interceptions = 4 fumbles lost = 13

 

23-13 = 10.

 

Also worth noting Josh had +4 tds. 

 

I gotcha... PFF's problem is that they ignore football and look at arbitrary statistics that don't mean *****. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is really all that needs to be said about the conversation, honestly. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any metric that has enough weight to remove all of the above statistics in this conversation. Maybe just straight up QB wins, but we know who has more of those as well. 

Yup, this^^^
 

let’s all completely ignore everything they put out, meaning zero clicks,  what say you fellas & ladies? 
 

Go Bills!!!

[CircleTheWagons99]

Why are people still talking about poor football focus? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Well, this is what you may chalk up to an "agenda" type item, where their pre-draft analysis has to be proven mostly right after the fact (whoopsies on that Rosen #3 and Rudolph #4 ranking...) and they heavily pushed Mayfield all the way at #1 to take. This article may or may not be paywall:

 https://buffalonews.com/2018/04/12/why-pff-low-popular-bills-mock-draft-target-josh-allen-mayfield-rosen-darnold-jackson-rudolph-pro-football-focus-quarterback/

 

"In researching Allen, one prominent dissenting opinion comes from the analytic site Pro Football Focus. While most outlets consider Allen to be in the mix with USC's Sam Darnold, UCLA's Josh Rosen and Oklahoma's Baker Mayfield for the top four spots in a very deep quarterback class, PFF's draft guide ranks Allen a distant sixth, plugging him below Oklahoma State's Mason Rudolph and Louisville's Lamar Jackson.

Allen ranks 35th on their Big Board, making him a fringe first-round prospect at best."

 

Man, going back at that and looking at their grades, how could PFF have Mayfield graded so much higher than Allen for rushing?  I mean lots of other things, but RUSHING? 

SMDH.

 

I sure hope the Bills aren't one of the teams that relies on their analytics so much because I think their models must have some big-time flaws in them.

33 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

Why are people still talking about poor football focus? 

 

One word:  Offseason

[JerseyBills]

8 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Can we just ban PFF from the board ?