The Rooney Rule (still) isn’t working?

[LB48]

1 hour ago, thenorthremembers said:

I think things like the Rooney rule are the very thing that promote color barriers.  Mike Tomlin didnt get the Steelers job because he was the best Rooney Rule coach he got it and kept it because he was the best coach for the job, period.

 

The analyst want to be up in arms about the lack of minority coaches but have no issue with the lack of asian, latino and white players in the league, its backwards.

 

 

 

Great comment.  The Rooney Rule doesn't work in the American work place in general!

 

[2012spiller]

51 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Almost made a thread on this earlier, but wasn’t sure how it would go over. 

 

The flak now is is that the rule isn’t resaulting in many minorities being hired. Technically speaking, something like 20% of the open positions have been filled with a minority candidate this year (Rivera in WSH) which is not all that much lower than the 30% minority makeup of the US. 

 

The problem, and the argument that Stephen A. and others don’t seem to want to engage regarding this, is that you can’t debate the Rooney rule and the lack of minority coaches in a racial vaccum. You have to present actual examples of minority coaches who are more deserving of the position being passed over. That’s kinda hard to do, I think. 

 

 

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that any time you look at anything but qualifications for a job or position, you break the system. This anger about minorities not being respresented has to intrinsically include an accusation that an owners racism is worth more to them than winning. That’s a hard pill to swallow.

 

Looking at one year in isolation as a baseline is misguided.  You have to look at all 32 coaching jobs and realize it’s not a this year issue but an accumulative issue.

 

secondly, without going to far into it, the Kapernick settlements shows the nfl and owners are more concerned with  along money not winning, as the two are not correlated.  In the vein of making money the nfl will put political/racial issues over winning.

 

Thirdly,  the nfl is moving to hiring offensive minded coaches that former QBs,  there’s not many minority candidates with that background due to the history around the position.  

 

Lastly, I would say Eric Bienemy and Byron Leftwitch come to mind as minority coaching candidates that I would higher over Rhule, zac Taylor, and the Pats wr coach hired for the giants, yet they didn’t get interviews. So yes it should be about looking purely at qualifications, but unfortunately it’s not and the Rooney rule is here to give qualified minorities a chance.  Looking at how many coaches are fired yearly and how many teams underperform, clearly the best coaching candidates are not being hired.

 

 

[DuckyBoys]

   I can't imagine what Eric Bienemy (for the sake of an example) must be thinking when he's called in as a formality  I'd be a little pissed off frankly.  I think the process of hiring is more about nepotism than racism. Look at Jerry Jones, his typical staff was all Cowboys alums.  Look at the Bills Is Beane here without McDermott's recommendation?   Gaines?  At that level a lot of it still who you know much as it is in upper echelon corporate America.   As we see  more GM's & coaches of color you will slowly see a more diverse fraternity of coaches. You're seeing more younger assistants of different backgrounds coming up . Is there someone of color who is being overlooked right now?  Who is Stephen A Smith saying is being overlooked?  Or is he just baiting and trolling as usual. 

[TwistofFate]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

Almost made a thread on this earlier, but wasn’t sure how it would go over. 

 

The flak now is is that the rule isn’t resaulting in many minorities being hired. Technically speaking, something like 20% of the open positions have been filled with a minority candidate this year (Rivera in WSH) which is not all that much lower than the 30% minority makeup of the US. 

 

The problem, and the argument that Stephen A. and others don’t seem to want to engage regarding this, is that you can’t debate the Rooney rule and the lack of minority coaches in a racial vaccum. You have to present actual examples of minority coaches who are more deserving of the position being passed over. That’s kinda hard to do, I think. 

 

 

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that any time you look at anything but qualifications for a job or position, you break the system. This anger about minorities not being respresented has to intrinsically include an accusation that an owners racism is worth more to them than winning. That’s a hard pill to swallow.

Bingo... /end

[RaoulDuke79]

How does the NFL verify or confirm that teams interviewing HC candidates adhere to the rule? Are the teams required to submit a list of coaches they interviewed?

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

How does the NFL verify or confirm that teams interviewing HC candidates adhere to the rule? Are the teams required to submit a list of coaches they interviewed?

They're required to submit pictures and DNA samples to confirm the level of melanin.  The NFL does NOT need another Soul Man, tanning pills fiasco.

[Blank Stare]

29 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Would you do me a favor and use specifics instead of generalities? In the last, say, 20 years, whose a black QB that was deprived a chance even though he merited it? Same for a black coach that deserved a chance as a HC? Not busting your chops here, just really curious. This conversation cannot happen in generalities. It has to be specifics or else it's just pandering.

It’s a fair request. However, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, but it is also part of the problem - these types of discussions typically have to be held on someone else’s terms. Sometimes we (as in all people) just have to listen to one another. None of us can tell someone else how to feel (not that you are). Be it real or perceived, we just have to accept it and maybe have some healthy discussion about it. 
 

Now, with that said, since you asked nicely, the low hanging fruit is to say Lamar. But we all know that one. A few others I would use as examples in the modern game (excluding historical examples such as Marlin Briscoe or James Harris) would be:

 

Doug Williams
Tony Dungy (QB and Coach)
Warren Moon
Hines Ward

Braxton Miller

Michael Robinson

Armanti Edwards

Terrelle Pryor

Ronald Curry

Brad Smith

Josh Cribbs

Antwan Randel El

Denard Robinson

Kordell Stewart (to some degree)

Troy Smith

JT Barrett
Steve McNair

Brian Mitchell

 

The list goes on and on. And there are only so many that we even know about. Now, the argument might be that many of these guys got a chance to play QB or wouldn’t have been any good if they did, but that’s not the point. These guys along with many others were still asked to consider a position switch (some successfully), when maybe they would’ve preferred to give it a go at QB. 

 

Fortunately, I think guys like Lamar, Mahomes, Wilson, etc. (much like their predecessors who’ve had success) will hopefully continue to further the cause. I’d really love to get to the point where football is the ultimate meritocracy like so many have suggested. In many ways it is, but there is still a ways to go. 

[machine gun kelly]

In my role as a Medical Device Regional Manager and Director, which are multiple six figure jobs for the reps, the directive for the last 12 years from two companies was you have to reach out to diversity recruiters and make a very serious effort to recruit diversity candidates, which includes in my business women, people of minority ethnicities and race, but the directive was also hire the best person.

 

This is the right directive.  As an aside I had the second most diversity employees on my teams ranging from African American, Latino or Latina, women, and so on including multiple gay persons because I could care less about people’s etHnicity, race, gender, religion, or any thing else.  I want the #1 person for the job and happy to extend my search to make sure I’m thorough. My employees who were highly successful from people of color never wanted a job because of their diversity.  They wanted to be hired because they were the best, period.

 

I believe in that philosophy.  I believe owners and GM’s should make every effort to find the best effort including all diversity and non-diversity candidates, but when you’re sales is on the line in a highly skillful position, you only hire the best person,  but never should be influenced by people’s diverse areas as mentioned above.  I just simply don’t care.  I just want the best person that can win.  That’s all.

[Nitro]

It is a complicated issue.  Some say hire those with experience or the better candidate then a team hires a WR coach to be the new HC.  It can be seen as galling.  Hire more assistant coaches that are minority and qualified.  Promote them to coordinators then add them to the mix when new positions open up.  Bills have had their fair share of minority assistants and coordinators.  Frazier can be up for a HC position after next season if they have a repeat of this year.

[DuckyBoys]

2 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

How does the NFL verify or confirm that teams interviewing HC candidates adhere to the rule? Are the teams required to submit a list of coaches they interviewed?

Yeah they submit their interviewees.   I think Eric Bienemy might get a shot  He's got the experience and working under Andy Reid might be appealing as fresh hire from the offense side of football . Leftwich just got into coaching,, he was intern just a few years ago. Marvin Lewis?  I dont follow college enough to comment on college coaches who might be serious candidates. 

 

To say that many owners/GM's  would not consider a good candidate of color seems foolish  GM's job is on the line and the owner wants to make money  You hire the best person for the job. Winning is everything, however I still maintain nepotism might over rule everything else

[Kirby Jackson]

I’m way on the liberal side on this board and think that I’m okay without it. Just hire the best football coaches. If we get to that point, like the NBA has, it’s so much better. If Bienemy is better than Rhule, so be it. If Rhule is the better candidate so be it. Token interviews aren’t advancing anyone despite the additional “exposure.” Stop thinking about what they look like and ask, “is this the guy I want leading my football team?” If the answer is yes, hire him.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[EasternOHBillsFan]

The disproportionate racial makeup of coaches to players is staggering... the rule is an abject failure. What do you expect from a bunch of really rich white guys? It exactly mirrors what's going on in our nation today.... but the funny thing is demographics are changing and sooner or later the piper will be paid!

[GoBills808]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m way on the liberal side on this board and think that I’m okay without it. Just hire the best football coaches. If we get to that point, like the NBA has, it’s so much better. If Bienemy is better than Rhule, so be it. If Rhule is the better candidate so be it. Token interviews aren’t advancing anyone despite the additional “exposure.” Stop thinking about what they look like and ask, “is this the guy I want leading my football team?” Of the answer is yes, hire him.

Exactly! Time for the NFL to join the rest of the world where everyone gets hired on merit. 

[Rc2catch]

Just my two cents. The rule was created to force interviews for a minority. However I’m not sure it’s fully meant to hire of course. 
It is good practice for some guys to go through the actual interview process and gain that experience which in turn may help them later to land a job. To be fair though there is not a ton of up and coming minority coaches. There’s a few but just not enough to make it more competitive. 
I could see backlash if there were clear cut better candidates just not being hired. The only minority I can think of off the top of my head this year would be the chiefs offensive coordinator but he’s absolutely not a clear cut above some that have been hired and of course coordinators in the playoffs tend to miss opportunities. 
Most teams don’t really want Marvin Lewis but he’s interviewing to fill the rule. 
Steven A is very over the top on race matters for me, you can’t force it on people. I’m all for raising awareness in aspects of race but he blabbers on sometimes and makes it very extreme that his race is neglected in many areas which I don’t always agree with. Almost trying to fire people up to cause drama as opposed to solutions to a problem 

[SWATeam]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Exactly! Time for the NFL to join the rest of the world where everyone gets hired on merit. 

These guys just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps!

[klos63]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

Almost made a thread on this earlier, but wasn’t sure how it would go over. 

 

The flak now is is that the rule isn’t resaulting in many minorities being hired. Technically speaking, something like 20% of the open positions have been filled with a minority candidate this year (Rivera in WSH) which is not all that much lower than the 30% minority makeup of the US. 

 

The problem, and the argument that Stephen A. and others don’t seem to want to engage regarding this, is that you can’t debate the Rooney rule and the lack of minority coaches in a racial vaccum. You have to present actual examples of minority coaches who are more deserving of the position being passed over. That’s kinda hard to do, I think. 

 

 

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that any time you look at anything but qualifications for a job or position, you break the system. This anger about minorities not being respresented has to intrinsically include an accusation that an owners racism is worth more to them than winning. That’s a hard pill to swallow.

I don't think it's necessarily racism, actually don't think that at all. It's just that the comfort level with retreads or just coaches with more experience which naturally excludes minorities and the thinking is , if you just give them a chance, you'll probably find who you are looking for.  The Rooney rule is not about hiring unqualified minorities, it's about not giving a chance to the qualified ones. Do you think the Baylor coach hired by Carolina is more qualified than someone like Leslie Frazier? Eric Bienemy?  He got $60 million- first time NFL head coach.

[Prickly Pete]

32 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The Steelers only interviewed him to satisfy the Rooney rule. It was reported that they had no interest in hiring him but they were blown away by him in the interview and he convinced them. 

 

Reads nicely, but maybe too nicely.....like made up after the fact to paint the narrative.

 

I think Tomlin is a great coach, and that there are plenty of Black coaches that would be good. 

[whatdrought]

1 hour ago, 2012spiller said:

 

1- Looking at one year in isolation as a baseline is misguided.  You have to look at all 32 coaching jobs and realize it’s not a this year issue but an accumulative issue.

 

2- secondly, without going to far into it, the Kapernick settlements shows the nfl and owners are more concerned with  along money not winning, as the two are not correlated.  In the vein of making money the nfl will put political/racial issues over winning.

 

3- Thirdly,  the nfl is moving to hiring offensive minded coaches that former QBs,  there’s not many minority candidates with that background due to the history around the position.  

 

Lastly, I would say Eric Bienemy and Byron Leftwitch come to mind as minority coaching candidates that I would higher over Rhule, zac Taylor, and the Pats wr coach hired for the giants, yet they didn’t get interviews. So yes it should be about looking purely at qualifications, but unfortunately it’s not and the Rooney rule is here to give qualified minorities a chance.  Looking at how many coaches are fired yearly and how many teams underperform, clearly the best coaching candidates are not being hired.

 

 

 

1- 13% right now, which is low statistically speaking, but statistics are somewhat lacking as you still have to have sound arguments for which of the other 87% are inferior to xMinority candidate. It was much higher just a couple years ago, but guys like Vance Joseph and Steve Wilks were fired due to being horrible HC's.

 

2- I disagree that that proves that premise, but I don't want to argue Kap and derail this.

 

3-  I mean, that seems like a stretch. Matt Rhule was a linebacker, Ron Rivera a defensive coach, Joe Judge a STer, and Mike McCarthy a TE. I would imagine (without doing the grunt work) that there probably isn't a huge majority of former QB's at HC in the league now.

 

4- But what standard indicates they're better suited for that? Bienemy doesn't call plays in KC (which was true of Pederson and Nagy as well, with mixed results so far, I would say), and Leftwhich just coached a QB to the first 30td/30int season in NFL history (not that I blame him for that, but he was also the OC in Arizona last year... yikes). Also, Bienemy did get interviewed by the Giants and the Panthers. I'm not sure what differentiates these two from the ones you named, and if they were all purple we wouldn't be having this conversation. That last sentence I can agree on, but i don't think it has anything to do with race. 

 

50 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

It’s a fair request. However, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, but it is also part of the problem - these types of discussions typically have to be held on someone else’s terms. Sometimes we (as in all people) just have to listen to one another. None of us can tell someone else how to feel (not that you are). Be it real or perceived, we just have to accept it and maybe have some healthy discussion about it. 

 

I'm fine having a healthy discussion and being willing to see all the perspectives, but I'm not pro-feelings when it comes to things such as this... This is a big deal and I think it needs to be engaged with varifiable proofs and evidence in order to truly be handled. It's not good enough that it feels like there is disparity, it needs to be proved in order to be attacked and handled. 

 

Quote

Now, with that said, since you asked nicely, the low hanging fruit is to say Lamar. But we all know that one. A few others I would use as examples in the modern game (excluding historical examples such as Marlin Briscoe or James Harris) would be:

 

Doug Williams
Tony Dungy (QB and Coach)
Warren Moon
Hines Ward

Braxton Miller

Michael Robinson

Armanti Edwards

Terrelle Pryor

Ronald Curry

Brad Smith

Josh Cribbs

Antwan Randel El

Denard Robinson

Kordell Stewart (to some degree)

Troy Smith

JT Barrett
Steve McNair

Brian Mitchell

 

The list goes on and on. And there are only so many that we even know about. Now, the argument might be that many of these guys got a chance to play QB or wouldn’t have been any good if they did, but that’s not the point. These guys along with many others were still asked to consider a position switch (some successfully), when maybe they would’ve preferred to give it a go at QB. 

 

Fortunately, I think guys like Lamar, Mahomes, Wilson, etc. (much like their predecessors who’ve had success) will hopefully continue to further the cause. I’d really love to get to the point where football is the ultimate meritocracy like so many have suggested. In many ways it is, but there is still a ways to go. 

 

But isn't this just the point? Is there a player there that universally is accepted as a good QB prospect who never got a fair shake at it? A guy being asked to switch positions could be because of racism, or it could be because he's just not that good... Nobody asked Patrick Mahomes to switch positions because his arm talent (though erratic coming out) was seen as such a plus side that he was worth developing. If a white Cornerback is too slow to play in the NFL and gets switched to Safety or something like that, is it racist, or is it practical?

 

You've also got on your list guys who did play, and are now in the hall of fame. Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Doug Williams (not HOF, but SB winning). I guess it just doesn't seem like a list composed of guys who were deprived a chance because of their skin color. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

There is no viable solution to the problems with the Rooney rule because it simply cannot achieve what it seeks to achieve.  

 

It really can't.  The only thing it does is get guys in the room, giving them the opportunity to possibly "wow" an owner or GM.

 

There needs to be more Brian Flores-kind-of-hires to balance out the Cliff Kingsbury and retread hires that we often see.

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m way on the liberal side on this board and think that I’m okay without it. Just hire the best football coaches. If we get to that point, like the NBA has, it’s so much better. If Bienemy is better than Rhule, so be it. If Rhule is the better candidate so be it. Token interviews aren’t advancing anyone despite the additional “exposure.” Stop thinking about what they look like and ask, “is this the guy I want leading my football team?” Of the answer is yes, hire him.

 

This is exactly as it should be. I’m really not sure it’s not exactly as it is. I mean, all anybody wants is to WIN. If it makes some people feel better, or gives someone else some “interview experience”, then fine. I’ll be honest, I hear all the coach’s names, and I rarely know what color their skin is. I just know his team has a great offense, or his team has a great defense. 

[DuckyBoys]

Just now, klos63 said:

I don't think it's necessarily racism, actually don't think that at all. It's just that the comfort level with retreads or just coaches with more experience which naturally excludes minorities and the thinking is , if you just give them a chance, you'll probably find who you are looking for.  The Rooney rule is not about hiring unqualified minorities, it's about not giving a chance to the qualified ones. Do you think the Baylor coach hired by Carolina is more qualified than someone like Leslie Frazier? Eric Bienemy?  He got $60 million- first time NFL head coach.

 

I think the Baylor hire is following the trend of hiring young coaches and he did rebuild both Temple and Baylor quickly from dumpster fires into very good college programs.  They are hoping for a Sean McVay.  Leslie Frazier did not fare well as a head coach.  Eric Bienemy will get a job.  If not this cycle then soon.  

[whatdrought]

3 minutes ago, klos63 said:

I don't think it's necessarily racism, actually don't think that at all. It's just that the comfort level with retreads or just coaches with more experience which naturally excludes minorities and the thinking is , if you just give them a chance, you'll probably find who you are looking for.  The Rooney rule is not about hiring unqualified minorities, it's about not giving a chance to the qualified ones. Do you think the Baylor coach hired by Carolina is more qualified than someone like Leslie Frazier? Eric Bienemy?  He got $60 million- first time NFL head coach.

 

Well the closed-mindedness of decision makers when it comes to innovation (irregardless of race) is another conversation in of itself, but there are guys all over the racial spectrum who suffer as a result of that. That's more to do with people not being willing to bend, but you don't see rules demanding that owners interview candidates who run a different offensive scheme than their last guy. Innovation wins. Look at the Cardinals. They took a massive risk to get someone "new" and outside the norm and it worked (with mixed results) for them. 

 

I guess my thing is, why do we need a rule to dictate who gets interviews when the reality is that owners open to innovation will find the innovators. 

 

I actually think he is really qualified from what I've read. As for those two, I don't really know as I'm not the owner. But I don't have, nor have I seen, any reason to believe that the owner of the Panthers chose his head coach because of his race. As far as I am concerned, and until it can be demonstrated otherwise, he did so with the intention of getting the best possible coach for his football team (Tepper coming from Pittsburgh is one that I am sure is fine with Minority candidates if they are the right guy for the job).

[Mikie2times]

I would be interested to know the demographics on offensive and defensive coordinator's and assistants. That is your current and future coaching recruiting pool. I do not have time at the moment to research but perhaps another time. 

 

I'm inclined to agree with the notion that winning supersedes all. I would think certainly at the top like HC, best man for the job hands down. Top of the ladder is all the rule applies to. If the pool doesn't exist to begin with in the form of OC's/DC's and assistants then the rule won't help any. I also think it's somewhat faulty to compare the sample to national demographics. You should look at it with at least a slight tilt toward the demographics of the league. I'm not saying full tilt, but it should push more that way. That is at least if you think it benefits you in coaching to play at the highest level or even college. Some have, some haven't.    

[Jay_Fixit]

I think it’s a ridiculous rule.

[whatdrought]

8 minutes ago, 32ABBA said:

I think Tomlin is a great coach

 

 

All this talk about Tomlin reminds me of reading about him getting started with Tony Dungy in Tampa Bay. Dungy had on his staff, Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards, Tomlin, Monte Kiffin, Rod Marinelli and a bunch of other stud coaches. Dungy's book is a great look at building that staff and team.

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

It really can't.  The only thing it does is get guys in the room, giving them the opportunity to possibly "wow" an owner or GM.

 

There needs to be more Brian Flores-kind-of-hires to balance out the Cliff Kingsbury and retread hires that we often see.

I think the issue is the “needs to be” directive.  

[Utah John]

I read an article a few weeks ago about how it's really the system that's holding back hiring more minorities.  Not that anyone has that objective, but here's the theory --

 

Offensive coordinators get a lot of attention as prospective HCs.  A lot of OCs grow up from being QB coaches, and teams have historically hired white QB coaches to work with their white QBs.  So, the pipeline (if there is one) is slanted toward white QB coaches becoming white OCs and then white HCs.  

 

This can't be the whole story.  A lot of HC hires aren't coming in from being an OC.  Also there are a lot more black QBs than there used to be so why can't there be black QB coaches?  But, to the extent that this has been true over the past decade or so, it could have skewed the statistics toward making it harder for a qualified black coach to get started.  

 

Also there are some really good black coaches.  Tomlin probably should be coach of the year after the Steelers pulled it together.  Unless Brian Flores gets it -- his front office raided the team of all its best players, the team started out playing miserable football, and yet he got Miami back in shape and competitive.  Beating NE in NE in a game NE really wanted to win, is damned impressive.  (Of course, the next week Tennessee did the very same thing, so maybe not so impressive...but the Titans were recognized as having a much better team.)  I consider Miami with Flores a much bigger threat in our rear view mirror than the Jets with Gase, to challenge the Bills after the Pats finally come back to Earth.

[2012spiller]

12 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

1- 13% right now, which is low statistically speaking, but statistics are somewhat lacking as you still have to have sound arguments for which of the other 87% are inferior to xMinority candidate. It was much higher just a couple years ago, but guys like Vance Joseph and Steve Wilks were fired due to being horrible HC's.

 

2- I disagree that that proves that premise, but I don't want to argue Kap and derail this.

 

3-  I mean, that seems like a stretch. Matt Rhule was a linebacker, Ron Rivera a defensive coach, Joe Judge a STer, and Mike McCarthy a TE. I would imagine (without doing the grunt work) that there probably isn't a huge majority of former QB's at HC in the league now.

 

4- But what standard indicates they're better suited for that? Bienemy doesn't call plays in KC (which was true of Pederson and Nagy as well, with mixed results so far, I would say), and Leftwhich just coached a QB to the first 30td/30int season in NFL history (not that I blame him for that, but he was also the OC in Arizona last year... yikes). Also, Bienemy did get interviewed by the Giants and the Panthers. I'm not sure what differentiates these two from the ones you named, and if they were all purple we wouldn't be having this conversation. That last sentence I can agree on, but i don't think it has anything to do with race. 

 

 

I'm fine having a healthy discussion and being willing to see all the perspectives, but I'm not pro-feelings when it comes to things such as this... This is a big deal and I think it needs to be engaged with varifiable proofs and evidence in order to truly be handled. It's not good enough that it feels like there is disparity, it needs to be proved in order to be attacked and handled. 

 

 

But isn't this just the point? Is there a player that that universally is accepted as a good QB prospect who never got a fair shake at it? A guy being asked to switch positions could be because of racism, or it could be because he's just not that good... Nobody asked Patrick Mahomes to switch positions because his arm talent (though erratic coming out) was seen as such a plus side that he was worth developing. If a white Cornerback is too slow to play in the NFL and gets switched to Safety or something like that, is it racist, or is it practical?

 

You've also got on your list guys who did play, and are now in the hall of fame. Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Doug Williams (not HOF, but SB winning). I guess it just doesn't seem like a list composed of guys who were deprived a chance because of their skin color. 

 

1 it’s not that 87% of coaches are inferior to minority candidates but maybe 25-40% of coaches are.  Freddie kitchens and pat schumur were just head coaches...

On 3, i was off base saying former qbs, but there’s definitely been a push over the past few years to find offensive minded coach “the next Sean Mcvay.” There’s a lack of minority offensive positions coaches as well resulting in a bad pipeline of candidates

 

4- those two are apart of high powered offenses in the nfl.  Rhule comes from college in a conference that plays air raid against some of the worst defenses in the county, also a college coach’s success has a lot to do with recurring than coaching which isn’t applicable to the nfl.  Saban

Learned the hard way. Judge was most recently NE WR coach,  their WR struggled all year even with a first round WR.  While the 2 minorities I listed are not drastically better than the guys I named  but there’s nothing to point to, to say those guys deserve to be head coaches over minorities.

 

if we were all purple we wouldn’t be having this convo but we’re not all purple.... even if we were we would still have a conversation as to why some of these guys are coaches over others.  I would say Roman and the Viks OC deserve HC jobs over some current coaches.

[jkeerie]

1 hour ago, StHustle said:

 

I think you and most on this board TOTALLY miss the idea behind the rule. While I concede the rule doesnt work well at all, I agree with its purpose. If you dont think the reality is that OFTEN times (not going to argue MOST of the time but even 3 out of 10 could be considered OFTEN) minorities get looked over for their white counterparts, you are living in la la land. Their are PLENTY and I mean PLENTY good HC candidates. MOST dont pan out. However in that huge pool of candidates, its easy for the people in decision making power (over 90% white) to interview people who look more like them. Its simply a HUMAN BEING FACT that people are most comfortable around and working with people who look like them. It's SUBCONSCIOUS for most so its wont be acknowledged or admitted to by most so I expect this post to get scoffed at but ANY person who studies this stuff and knows what they are talking about will agree Im right. So what the rule does is force ALL decision makers to at least hear out one minority guy per search to hopefully open their minds.

 

For example, Im a black guy who has owned businesses and hired people. When I had an electronics store near downtown buffalo, the neighborhood was over 90% African American. I hired 4 people and all of them were African American. I, unlike most, will admit Im most comfortable around people of my own race. HOWEVER, I am nowhere near racist and would have been more than willing to hire a white guy. BUT, in a pool of 10 applicants and 9 are black and 1 white...the white guy likely never gets an interview. Now lets say I was FORCED to interview the 1 white guy. By the end of my interview process I may very well deem him a top choice and hire someone I would never even interviewed if not forced. OR at the very least could tell some of my business owner friends about him if he just misses my cut.

 

Sorry no time to proof read this post so forgive me for any typos...I type fast and can make many!

This is an interesting take and I think has a lot of validity in general. Thank you for sharing.   I think the NFL today has proven to be one minute  "trendy" and the other looking at the track record of the candidate or the success of the team in which they spent their formative years.   We had the hot offensive coordinator trend.  We've had the various coaching trees (Walsh, Parcells, now Belichick).   You're seeing more choices made on the basis of who can build a winning culture.   I don't know where race plays into it any longer, broadly speaking.  

[Blank Stare]

55 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

1- 13% right now, which is low statistically speaking, but statistics are somewhat lacking as you still have to have sound arguments for which of the other 87% are inferior to xMinority candidate. It was much higher just a couple years ago, but guys like Vance Joseph and Steve Wilks were fired due to being horrible HC's.

 

2- I disagree that that proves that premise, but I don't want to argue Kap and derail this.

 

3-  I mean, that seems like a stretch. Matt Rhule was a linebacker, Ron Rivera a defensive coach, Joe Judge a STer, and Mike McCarthy a TE. I would imagine (without doing the grunt work) that there probably isn't a huge majority of former QB's at HC in the league now.

 

4- But what standard indicates they're better suited for that? Bienemy doesn't call plays in KC (which was true of Pederson and Nagy as well, with mixed results so far, I would say), and Leftwhich just coached a QB to the first 30td/30int season in NFL history (not that I blame him for that, but he was also the OC in Arizona last year... yikes). Also, Bienemy did get interviewed by the Giants and the Panthers. I'm not sure what differentiates these two from the ones you named, and if they were all purple we wouldn't be having this conversation. That last sentence I can agree on, but i don't think it has anything to do with race. 

 

 

I'm fine having a healthy discussion and being willing to see all the perspectives, but I'm not pro-feelings when it comes to things such as this... This is a big deal and I think it needs to be engaged with varifiable proofs and evidence in order to truly be handled. It's not good enough that it feels like there is disparity, it needs to be proved in order to be attacked and handled. 

 

 

But isn't this just the point? Is there a player that that universally is accepted as a good QB prospect who never got a fair shake at it? A guy being asked to switch positions could be because of racism, or it could be because he's just not that good... Nobody asked Patrick Mahomes to switch positions because his arm talent (though erratic coming out) was seen as such a plus side that he was worth developing. If a white Cornerback is too slow to play in the NFL and gets switched to Safety or something like that, is it racist, or is it practical?

 

You've also got on your list guys who did play, and are now in the hall of fame. Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Doug Williams (not HOF, but SB winning). I guess it just doesn't seem like a list composed of guys who were deprived a chance because of their skin color. 

All fair points. You’re absolutely right, some of these guys got QB opportunities and did well with them. Some REALLY well. Also fair to point out that others on the list were successful at other positions. It’s also ok to mention there are white players that were also asked to make similar position switches, albeit maybe not at the rate as some of the black QBs (Tebow, Taysom Hill, Eric Crouch, Trace McSorley, Edelman, etc.). Or even the ever elusive white corner back <gasp>!
 

I think the point of my previous post, which may not have been articulated all that well, is that the players on that list were asked to switch. Some said no (or yes) and it didn’t hurt them, but they were asked. Whether it was fair or a legitimate reason to ask is subjective, but at least fair to wonder why. 
 

It has been historically suggested at a pretty high rate that black QBs at the high school or collegiate level should consider a position switch at the next level. My contention is that I believe in many cases (not all) that it had a lot to do with institutional racism or an implicit racial bias with people who have run the league (historically) that foolishly think these players aren’t as smart as or have the ability to lead like their white counterpart. Or even in some way that it’s not ok to have a black QB with that much power and in a leadership position. 
 

Again, fortunately, I think the league has made strides in this area. Lamar Jackson being the most recent case. I can only hope it continues to get better.

 

I know I may have shifted a degree or two off the point of the thread, but I believe that in some way we all get better through open conversations like these. Whether we agree or disagree that’s ok. While it may be painful or annoying to some on this board, I appreciate you reading/listening and indulging me with this discussion. I’ll zip it and let people get back to their regularly scheduled programming. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by TheProcess

[Boatdrinks]

Was wondering when ESPN was going to start their ceremonial whining about the coaching hires. Haven’t watched since Wingo and fat LeBetard piled on the Bills and Josh. Anyway, it was only a matter of time before you could cue up the outrage. Oddly enough, I never hear them decry the lack of diversity in the player ranks. Look, to me it’s a non issue. I don’t care who decides they want to pursue football at the high school level, college etc. However, these clowns politicize a non political thing almost as a pastime. They and certain “ newspapers” will carry on about the lack of diversity among MLB players and what should be done about it. The answer is ....NOTHING. Exactly what should be done about the ethnic makeup of NFL rosters and their respective coaching staffs. Houston, we do not have a problem ! 

[whatdrought]

27 minutes ago, 2012spiller said:

 

1 it’s not that 87% of coaches are inferior to minority candidates but maybe 25-40% of coaches are.  Freddie kitchens and pat schumur were just head coaches...

On 3, i was off base saying former qbs, but there’s definitely been a push over the past few years to find offensive minded coach “the next Sean Mcvay.” There’s a lack of minority offensive positions coaches as well resulting in a bad pipeline of candidates

 

4- those two are apart of high powered offenses in the nfl.  Rhule comes from college in a conference that plays air raid against some of the worst defenses in the county, also a college coach’s success has a lot to do with recurring than coaching which isn’t applicable to the nfl.  Saban

Learned the hard way. Judge was most recently NE WR coach,  their WR struggled all year even with a first round WR.  While the 2 minorities I listed are not drastically better than the guys I named  but there’s nothing to point to, to say those guys deserve to be head coaches over minorities.

 

if we were all purple we wouldn’t be having this convo but we’re not all purple.... even if we were we would still have a conversation as to why some of these guys are coaches over others.  I would say Roman and the Viks OC deserve HC jobs over some current coaches.

 

But which Minority candidates? It's also not black and white like that (pun slightly intended, lol). There are bad coaches, no doubt. But at the time of their hire they weren't bad coaches. They made sense on some level or another. Vance Joseph (black), Freddy Kitchens (White), Steve Wilkes (Black), Pat Shumur (White), Todd Bowles (Black), Chip Kelly (White). None of these people, I would argue, were hired because of their skin color. They were hired because they were perceived to be the best bet for the job. Unfortunately for them, the owners, and the fans, that perception was wrong. 

 

Meh, I'd be interested in the statistics of that, but where minority candidates are coming for seems like a deeper level of conversation than we can handle in this thread today- Though there may be something to the process down the line- that I'm not familiar with as much. 

 

Rhule was universally (edit: universally may be strong, but very heavily) regarded as the top coaching candidate the past two years. Those other guys will likely get a chance some time, but what you've said is not at all evidence that they are clearly better candidates than the others. Kliff Kingsbury was also from college, more of a longshot than Rhule, and had a decent Freshmen season. It happens, and one candidate can't really be seen as superior to the others from the outside, at least not with the information we have. 

Judge was the ST coordinator for years in NE. A very very good ST unit while he was there. The WR's struggled, but my guess is he got the job more on his merits as ST coordinator. Andrew Hawkins, a black former WR posted a thread about how wise it is to get a good ST coach for a head coach. It could be a miss, but time will tell. It reminds me of the John Harbaugh hire. Again, no real concrete evidence that he's a worse candidate than either of those guys. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's really impossible for us to understand the minutiae involved in that process. 

 

But that's the proof in the pudding, there are questionable decisions made on both sides of the racial aisle, so to speak. It's a business with human movers and shakers. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought

[Boatdrinks]

39 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

All fair points. You’re absolutely right, some of these guys got QB opportunities and did well with them. Some REALLY well. Also fair to point out that others on the list were successful at other positions. It’s also ok to mention there are white players that were also asked to make similar position switches, albeit maybe not at the rate as some of the black QBs (Tebow, Taysom Hill, Eric Crouch, Trace McSorley, Edelman, etc.). Or even the ever elusive white corner back <gasp>!
 

I think the point of my previous post, which may not have been articulated all that well, is that the players on that list were asked to switch. Some said no (or yes) and it didn’t hurt them, but they were asked. Whether it was fair or a legitimate reason to ask is subjective, but at least fair to wonder why. 
 

It has been historically suggested at a pretty high rate that black QBs at the high school or collegiate level should consider a position switch at the next level. My contention is that I believe in many cases (not all) that it had a lot to do with institutional racism or an implicit racial bias with people who have run the league (historically) that foolishly think these players aren’t as smart as or have the ability to lead like their white counterpart. Or even in some way that it’s not ok to have a black QB with that much power and in a leadership position. 
 

Again, fortunately, I think the league has made strides in this area. Lamar Jackson being the most recent case. I can only hope it continues to get better.

 

I know I may have shifted a degree or two off the point of the thread, but I believe that in some way we all get better through open conversations like these. Whether we agree or disagree that’s ok. While it may be painful or annoying to some on this board, I appreciate you reading/listening and indulging me with this discussion. I’ll zip it and let people get back to their regularly scheduled programming. 

Wow , where to start ? What a load of nonsense. Perhaps some players were asked to switch positions to a skill position such as WR etc because they were athletically superior to the other candidates . Imagine that ! That’s a typical high school football type move, where you put the best athlete at QB. That wasn’t thought to work at the NFL level because of the level of overall talent on pro rosters. That’s been somewhat disproven  lately by Lamar Jackson, but the jury is out as far as it being an effective long term strategy. The risk of injury for that type of QB play is much higher, so we will see. So much nonsense about racism going around these days. Even permeating sports, which is just entertainment and for many a refuge from outside noise around us every day. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Boatdrinks

[whatdrought]

23 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

All fair points. You’re absolutely right, some of these guys got QB opportunities and did well with them. Some REALLY well. Also fair to point out that others on the list were successful at other positions. It’s also ok to mention there are white players that were also asked to make similar position switches, albeit maybe not at the rate as some of the black QBs (Tebow, Taysom Hill, Eric Crouch, Trace McSorley, Edelman, etc.). Or even the ever elusive white corner back <gasp>!
 

I think the point of my previous post, which may not have been articulated all that well, is that the players on that list were asked to switch. Some said no (or yes) and it didn’t hurt them, but they were asked. Whether it was fair or a legitimate reason to ask is subjective, but at least fair to wonder why. 
 

It has been historically suggested at a pretty high rate that black QBs at the high school or collegiate level should consider a position switch at the next level. My contention is that I believe in many cases (not all) that it had a lot to do with institutional racism or an implicit racial bias with people who have run the league (historically) that foolishly think these players aren’t as smart as or have the ability to lead like their white counterpart. Or even in some way that it’s not ok to have a black QB with that much power. 
 

Again, fortunately, I think the league has made strides in this area. Lamar Jackson being the most recent case. I can only hope it continues to get better.

 

I know I may have shifted a degree or two off the point of the thread, but I believe that in some way we all get better through open conversations like these. Whether we agree or disagree that’s ok. While it may be painful or annoying to some on this board, I appreciate you reading/listening and indulging me with this discussion. I’ll zip it and let people get back to their regularly scheduled programming. 

 

I don't have a ton of knowledge in that regard so I won't debate it. I do hesitate when I see things like "institutional racism" and "implicit racism" because there is no real way to combat those, if they are a problem. Without examples of that racism, we can't fight against it. If there's a highschool coach whose pushing black young men towards skill positions with racist intent, I think we can all band together and do what it takes to stop that. It's just hard to use generalities and phrases that encompass wide swaths because that can derail the productivity of the conversation. 

 

I personally wonder what the affect of Black guys typically being better athletes has on the conversation. When I coached little league, the QB was essentially center 2.0 who handed the ball to whatever star athlete we had at the time and rarely ever passed. Those star athletes 8 out of 10 times were black. I wonder if that creates a channelling of talent into the skill positions at the young age... I don't have anything other than my observations on that though so take it for what it's worth. 

 

Yeah, it's all good to disagree! I appreciate getting to chat with you!

 

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Wow , where to start ? What a load of nonsense. Perhaps some players were asked to switch positions to a skill position such as WR etc because they were athletically superior to the other candidates . Imagine that ! That’s a typical high school football type move, where you put the best athlete at QB. That wasn’t thought to work at the NFL level because of the level of overall talent on MFL rosters. That’s been somewhat disproven  lately by Lamar Jackson, but the jury is out as far as it being an effective long term strategy. The risk of injury for that type of QB play is much higher, so we will see. So much nonsense about racism going around these days. Even permeating sports, which is just entertainment and for many a refuge from outside noise around us every day. 

 

Do try to disagree respectfully. @TheProcess has been very respectful in his discourse- no need to get chippy. ?

Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

This is a very difficult issue for many people to discuss.  I'm not sure that there is one single silver bullet answer that will deliver the kinds of results that many people want to have.  IMHO the situation could be improved through better developmental assignments so that there is a significant high quality diverse candidate pool to fill openings.  OC and DC positions have been the main stepping stones to become head coaches.  Creating career paths to prepare future candidates to succeed should be an essential part of the league's human resources policies.  Just guaranteeing that a minority gets interviewed for an opening is just insincere window dressing.  As others have pointed out, owners are going to select the candidates that they believe will win the most games and championships.  By the way, major university programs shouldn't get a pass on this subject either.

[Utah John]

 

I wonder what would be viewed as success in this regard.  Is there a target number of black HCs that would lead everyone to say all is well?  I think the purpose of the Rooney Rule is to make sure some qualified black coaching candidates at least get into the room and have a shot at impressing the management.  That's all that anyone can really ask for.  

Edited January 8, 2020 by Utah John
strange duplication of an earlier post

[pennstate10]

So, I'm guessing this will be a bit controversial, but here goes. 

 

The US population is, roughly, 60% white, 10 % Latino, 10% black, 10% Asian, 10 % other. 

 

But NFL cornerbacks are 0 % white, almost 100% black. 

 

Should there be a Rooney rule for white cornerbacks?  Where each team has to play at least one white CB in the preseason, give him a chance?

 

or should the best players play, regardless of race or ethnic background?

 

And should that same philosophy be applied to coaches. The best coaches coach, regardless of race etc?

[Blank Stare]

23 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Wow , where to start ? What a load of nonsense. Perhaps some players were asked to switch positions to a skill position such as WR etc because they were athletically superior to the other candidates . Imagine that ! That’s a typical high school football type move, where you put the best athlete at QB. That wasn’t thought to work at the NFL level because of the level of overall talent on MFL rosters. That’s been somewhat disproven  lately by Lamar Jackson, but the jury is out as far as it being an effective long term strategy. The risk of injury for that type of QB play is much higher, so we will see. So much nonsense about racism going around these days. Even permeating sports, which is just entertainment and for many a refuge from outside noise around us every day. 

Agree to disagree I suppose. Point of my post wasn’t to change your beliefs. Rather, simply to express mine. I never said all cases. In fact, very rarely can you say all cases about anything. Athletic superiority as you’ve suggested could absolutely be a reason for some of the several position switches at various levels. 
 

As far as your comment about too much “nonsense about racism”, I’m sorry you don’t like the topic, but it’s a very real part of life for many people in this country, including NFL coaches and players. You don’t get to dismiss it because you deem it nonsense. Sports is an escape for a lot of people, but sometimes it takes a common subject universally accepted by all races to get people’s attention and have a meaningful discussion about it. Personally, I like hearing multiple perspectives on the subject. However, I will give you that this message board is predominately about the Bills, so maybe this isn’t the right forum for such discourse. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by TheProcess

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, TheProcess said:

Agree to disagree I suppose. Point of my post wasn’t to change your beliefs. Rather, simply to express mine. I never said all cases. In fact, very rarely can you say all cases about anything. Athletic superiority as you’ve suggested could absolutely be a reason for some of the several position switches at various levels. 
 

As far as your comment about too much “nonsense about racism”, I’m sorry you don’t like the topic, but it’s a very real part of life for many people in this country, including NFL coaches and players. You don’t get to dismiss it because you deem it nonsense. Sports is an escape for a lot of people, but sometimes it takes a common subject universally accepted by all races to get people’s attention and have a meaningful discussion about it. Personally, I like hearing multiple perspectives on the subject. However, I will give you that this message board is predominately about the Bills, so maybe this isn’t the right forum for such discourse. 

Yes, I will just agree to disagree. It’s not about whether I like a topic or not, but things aren’t as bad as you paint them to be.  You just can’t believe everything that the doomsayers spoon feed you as fact. Narratives they bombard you with until you’ve accepted it and made it part of your daily outlook. Go Bills! 

[Doc Brown]

Three out of 32 head coaches are black.  Less than 10%.  Approximately 13% of population is black and I believe around 70% of NFL players are black. So, no.  It’s not working and needs to be tweaked or eliminated.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Doc Brown