Coaches vs players. Which is more responsible for poor play?

[oldmanfan]

We have been critical of both coaches and players after the debacle Sunday.  Rightfully so.  But which has more responsibility?

 

I think players myself.  When you boil it down football is imposing your will on the guy in front of you.  And we have linemen get blown up, WRs that get pushed off the ball, etc.  Coaches can't really change that, other than getting rid of guys (Miller?  Ducasse?  Groy?)

 

i hope this Sunday some guys show some pride and step up their game.

[SouthNYfan]

Coach/GM for stacking the roster with players who "buy into the process" and completely forgoing talent to do so 

 

McDermott is basically Chip Kelly, with less arrogance/dbag and more Bible and clapping.

[BuffaloBillyG]

Both the coaches and players were exposed by the Ravens. 

[Best Player Available]

in order of ineptness 1) GM   2) HC & assistants   3) a lot of lo- end players playing to their limited ability.

[BarleyNY]

24 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

Coach/GM for stacking the roster with players who "buy into the process" and completely forgoing talent to do so 

 

This. Other than Benjamin who was phoning it in?  Some problems create others. We have crappy WRs and a crappy OL so no decent bridge QB wanted to come here. No decent QB equated to no serviceable FA WRs wanting to come here. How can lining up Nathan Peterman behind that OL with Kelvin Benjamin as the #1 WR be acceptable?  Then think about the fact that they paid AJ McCarron $4M for his preseason work, but didn’t bother to keep him around this season for an extra $2M despite NP’s 5 INTs in a half in his only start and that their high rookie 1st round draft pick is very raw. AJ might be a tier lower than what we’d hope in a bridge QB, but why not keep him around until you see what NP does in live action?  It’s mind boggling. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by BarleyNY

[CountDorkula]

Talent, so players.

 

If you don't have talent you don't win, it's that simple.

 

You can bang the drum on this "Culture" stuff all you want, but if your "culture" is lead on the field by Nate Peterman at QB every week your culture is probably going to go 3-13. 

[26CornerBlitz]

I blame the fans on TSW who hate the Bills by being critical of players, coaches, the GM, and ownership. 

[teef]

it's certainly a combination of both, but i think i was mostly let down by coaching.  this team looked completely unprepared on sunday.  i get that personnel is part of that reason, but this team was lost.  as i mentioned in another thread, the ravens game reminded me of the opener against the jets 6 years ago, (i'm pretty sure gailey was the coach).  fitz was in his second season and we were all prepared for a strong year.  they completely laid an egg.  it just had the same feel.

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

This. Other than Benjamin who was phoning it in?  Some problems create others. We have crappy WRs and a crappy OL so no decent bridge QB wanted to come here. No decent QB equated to no serviceable FA WRs wanting to come here. How can lining up Nathan Peterman behind that OL with Kelvin Benjamin as the #1 WR be acceptable?  Then think about the fact that they paid AJ McCarron $4M for his preseason work, but didn’t bother to keep him around this season for an extra $2M despite NP’s 5 INTs in a half in his only start and that their high rookie 1st round draft pick is very raw. AJ might be a tier lower than what we’d hope in a bridge QB, but why not keep him around until you see what NP does in live action?  It’s mind boggling. 

Good points and to me a front office couldn't put together a much worse group.  So you have to ask, are the GM/HQ incompetent, stupid, or doing it by design?  My conclusion from taking it all in during the off-season and the week 1 pasting by the Ravens is that from ownership on down they decided to go with Tank 2.0 this season.  Break it all down and then build it back up from the top of the first round, maybe trade back and get a haul of picks, and put what might be $100M in cap space to work.  Truth is the Bills were never going to win the Super Bowl this year, something we are knew, so if you're going to lose, then lose big rather than stumble around year after year forever at 6 to 9 wins.  If you accept my view it will save you a lot of pain and frustration through what is looking like a real bad season for us.

[SoCal Deek]

After Week One it’s the coaches for not assembling an NFL quality roster. The Bills didn’t get pummeled by lack of scheme. They got beat by lack of talent. As the season wears on we’ll see if this less than talented group continues to fight. If not, some of the blame will shift to the players for giving up. Tick, tick, tick.

[CommonCents]

Coaches/GM

 

They draft, sign, and have these guys compete in training camps. They design the schemes and call the plays. They can release players and limit playing time as they see fit. When you see a performance and an effort like the Bills put out this past Sunday you can be sure that the process is flawed. 

 

McD has been accused of favoring culture over talent, which is a debate in itself. Clearly the talent is lacking but that can be explained away as they are in year two of a retool/rebuild. How can you explain the “culture” that we saw Sunday? The team, as a whole, laid down and took that beating like a bunch of chumps. It was gross.

 

The only type of reaction we saw in that game came from Dawkins when another man grabbed his throat, not impressed. Judon tossed Allen on the sideline and committed what is now a roughing the passer penalty while falling ontop of him. On the very next play he got flagged for helmet to helmet as he speared Allen on the ground. No reaction. If I’m coaching a team that is down 47-3 and someone takes liberties on the QBs head someone from my team better react, getting kicked out of that game wouldn’t have  changed the outcome. 

[Soda Popinski]

Gotta say neither.

 

What were the weak links Sunday?    WR/OL.   What areas were not addressed by the GM this offseason???   See where I'm going with this? 

[Woodman19]

Coaches plan and the players execute.  Do you feel we locked in planning or in execution?  I would say both.

[YodaMan79]

Reminds me of what that coach on Last Chance U said quite simply, "it's not the x's or o's, it's the Jimmy's and the Joe's".  I'll give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt after last year.  The Bills are at a decided disadvantage every week with the amount of dead money this year.  Now they have to develop the talent to extend because FAgency isn't the answer to building a quality roster. 

[dpberr]

I think it's 60-40 coaches.  

 

I'm sure every player wishes to impose their will on the man opposite them but the preseason games and the All-22 playbacks suggest the offensive linemen have no idea where they are suppossed to be, especially if the defense throws a wrinkle into the play like the Ravens did often on Sunday.  The defensive front four are thinking and therefore, hesitating = slow, no rush.  

 

The Bills don't play "man" anything.  They zone block on offense, play zone on defense and that means knowing areas of responsibility versus just beating your opponent in 1:1 competition.  I'm sure Ducasse and Mills are very strong men but they aren't understanding the scheme and I put that on the coaching.  Ducasse's scouting report raved about his strength, knocked him for his understanding of blocking technique and scheme.  

 

While I think McDermott has shown to be at least an average coach, I think his unit coaches are bad teachers and his loyalty to keeping them around, results notwithstanding, will be his demise - not a poor record.  Unit coaches must be good teachers.  

 

If I were Beane, that'd be priority #1 - let's get rid of Castillo, find another zone blocking coach and find at least 1-2 serviceable linemen who have worked with it.  

[SouthNYfan]

32 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

Talent, so players.

 

If you don't have talent you don't win, it's that simple.

 

You can bang the drum on this "Culture" stuff all you want, but if your "culture" is lead on the field by Nate Peterman at QB every week your culture is probably going to go 3-13. 

 

Hard to blame players though when we are rolling out guys as starters who are barely ps level on most teams.

I mean I guess it's their fault for not having talent, but I feel kind of bad blaming a guy like Peterman when he has no business being in there in the first place.

 

It's like if I give my 12 year old the keys to my car and tell him to go to the store for me, then he gets in a huge car accident.

I mean technically he was behind the wheel, but I'm the one who gave him the keys.

[stosh64]

Umm....I'll go with coaching, when McD spouts crap like this.

 

"Specifically, McDermott said he didn’t question the effort of the offensive line or wideout Kelvin Benjamin, who made one catch on seven targets.

 

Maybe he hasn't had time to "watch the tape" on Benjamin yet?

Edited September 12, 2018 by stosh64

[BarleyNY]

19 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Good points and to me a front office couldn't put together a much worse group.  So you have to ask, are the GM/HQ incompetent, stupid, or doing it by design?  My conclusion from taking it all in during the off-season and the week 1 pasting by the Ravens is that from ownership on down they decided to go with Tank 2.0 this season.  Break it all down and then build it back up from the top of the first round, maybe trade back and get a haul of picks, and put what might be $100M in cap space to work.  Truth is the Bills were never going to win the Super Bowl this year, something we are knew, so if you're going to lose, then lose big rather than stumble around year after year forever at 6 to 9 wins.  If you accept my view it will save you a lot of pain and frustration through what is looking like a real bad season for us.

 

 I don’t think it was meant to be this bad. I think it went off the rails when they unexpectedly lost Wood and Cogs.  That hurt and it started a snowball because they didn’t alter their plan. They traded Tyrod and Glenn anyway. They wanted their two most important pieces of their team - franchise QB and stud LB (their Luke Kuechley) - and they stayed the course. As I mentioned the dearth at OL and WR cost them a decent bridge QB which cost them a good FA WR (a deal could have been worked out concurrently with a decent FA QB). They should’ve modified their plan and kept Tyrod and Glenn. I can’t imagine what they were thinking by releasing McCarron and going with Peterman and Allen. That’s just incompetence. 

[PeterDude]

1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said:

McDermott is basically Chip Kelly, with less arrogance/dbag and more Bible and clapping.

 

This is spot on.

[Uncle Joe]

"I'll have to look at the tape"

[Mickey]

I blame the equipment managers who, for far too long, have escaped all criticism from the fan base and the sports broadcasting illuminati. Their disastrous decision to go with rag wool underwear in a rain storm and the predictable widespread chafing it caused doomed the Bills in Baltimore before they even left the locker room. Their excuse, that it was a "low cost, short term solution" to their worsening uniform budget deficit is all you need to know about their goals and intentions. Profit over wins, that's the mindset in the equipment room. They simply refuse to accept the analytics on the statistical relationship between testicular comfort and on the field performance.

 

Cotton! For god's sake, cotton! It is the only fabric used in Constanza Inc.'s "Shorts for Sports" line, the standard in the industry. 

[Heitz]

This year I blame the players, it's pretty clear that we don't have the talent needed to run ANY scheme.  

 

We have some building blocks, a few serviceable players here and there, but overall.  And while the lack of talent this year goes to the GM, they're playing the long game - they don't want to be "decent" this year, the want to be "great" in the future.  Sucks for all of us that want some instant (or even delayed) gratification, it's gonna take a few years, but they're building a roster that theoretically won't play so damn poor...

[Homey D. Clown]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

We have been critical of both coaches and players after the debacle Sunday.  Rightfully so.  But which has more responsibility?

 

I think players myself.  When you boil it down football is imposing your will on the guy in front of you.  And we have linemen get blown up, WRs that get pushed off the ball, etc.  Coaches can't really change that, other than getting rid of guys (Miller?  Ducasse?  Groy?)

 

i hope this Sunday some guys show some pride and step up their game.

 

The GM.  When you have your best 3 offensive linemen leave for various reasons and you don't immediately make that a top priority, you (as a GM) simply failed.  I don't care who else you drafted at this point.

[DRA3196]

Its up to the coaches to put the players in a position to succeed. Therefore its on the coaches

[SouthNYfan]

Just now, DRA3196 said:

Its up to the coaches to put the players in a position to succeed. Therefore its on the coaches

 

When your players cannot succeed because their talent level isn't even PS quality, it's tough to blame the coaching strategy, it's more about the roster building, which in this case, McD is a big part of.

 

[ricojes]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

We have been critical of both coaches and players after the debacle Sunday.  Rightfully so.  But which has more responsibility?

 

I think players myself.  When you boil it down football is imposing your will on the guy in front of you.  And we have linemen get blown up, WRs that get pushed off the ball, etc.  Coaches can't really change that, other than getting rid of guys (Miller?  Ducasse?  Groy?)

 

i hope this Sunday some guys show some pride and step up their game.

50 mil in dead cap money is insane, so I blame whomever got them there.  If we could have half of that this year and got 5, $5 million a year players, they would be a much better team.  Get a couple guys on the O line, a LB, a WR or 2, and a corner. 

 

That being said, I have faith in the scheme and our coaching staff.  It's up to the players to execute.  Dabol's hands were tied with a QB who was a deer in headlights.  The D missed assignments and it was just ugly.  You can lead a horse to water...

Edited September 12, 2018 by ricojes

[mead107]

Has to be the bad players 

[Billsatlastin2018]

I'd rather the question was generic, rather than based on last week. Let's face it- the GM has assembled a team of largely, sub standard, NO talent Trash. That's on him! And if the game plan, is to slowly replace Sunday Beer League guy's with NFL talent, we have a looooooooong wait to go.

 

I'd rather stick to an example to demonstrate. Unless memory is failing, Peyton Manning spent virtually his entire Colts career in hurry up mode. I.e. His entire front line were disciplined and poised to get down into a set for at least 20 seconds, without flinching on every play, while he called AND changed the plays.

 

I simply cannot recall how many times, that line False Started- but it was rare. It was rare because Dungy, his coaches and Manning, whipped that into them, from before they even hit training camp. (There are other examples- of course, Billy B is one- where you better not F up- EVER... or you don't play for him!)

 

i guarantee you, that on Sunday, at Home and with the crowd quiet, this Bills line will False Start! I sometimes saw it 4 times per game this Millennium.

 

Stupid penalties, deliberate head hunting, poor positioning, incorrect reads, are ALL on coaching and the absence of discipline & repercussion.

[Nitro]

The management.  Should have been honest and said this is a rebuilding season.  It was plain to see.  Trading Taylor and Glenn for picks.  Drafting Allen.  Not bringing in a veteran FA guards to offer competition.  I am not upset. Next off season will see more talent depart (McCoy for one) and new guys brought in to address holes.  They are two O linemen and a true #1 WR away from being in the mix.  

[row_33]

Ravens had better coaches and players and were better prepped and executed better.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

We have been critical of both coaches and players after the debacle Sunday.  Rightfully so.  But which has more responsibility?

 

I think players myself.  When you boil it down football is imposing your will on the guy in front of you.  And we have linemen get blown up, WRs that get pushed off the ball, etc.  Coaches can't really change that, other than getting rid of guys (Miller?  Ducasse?  Groy?)

 

i hope this Sunday some guys show some pride and step up their game.

 

There's that truism, it's about the Jimmies and Joes not the X's and O's.

 

On the other hand, good coaching puts Jimmie and Joe in positions to succeed and plays to their strengths.   From what I've seen, I feel the OL scheme is asking our OL to do things it can't, and we're not figuring out how to exploit the opponent successfully.

 

Somehow McDermott & Co are saying for the first 4 games its alway uncertain what the opponent will give you, but the Ravens crafted a brilliant game that exploited our D scheme and the Jets stole the Lions signs through film study.

 

Huh.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

We have been critical of both coaches and players after the debacle Sunday.  Rightfully so.  But which has more responsibility?

 

I think players myself.  When you boil it down football is imposing your will on the guy in front of you.  And we have linemen get blown up, WRs that get pushed off the ball, etc.  Coaches can't really change that, other than getting rid of guys (Miller?  Ducasse?  Groy?)

 

i hope this Sunday some guys show some pride and step up their game.

 

The Ravens roster was far away better than ours everywhere but RB, which didn't even show on Sunday.

[DRA3196]

 

The players can't succeed when they haven't developed any continuity. The competitions in the offseason were maddening, and  IMO a big reason the team looked lost on Sunday. That's on the coaches not putting the players in a position to succeed. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

As mentioned in the Accountability thread 

 

IMHO  Both 

[CLTbills]

On 9/12/2018 at 9:43 AM, DRA3196 said:

Its up to the coaches to put the players in a position to succeed. Therefore its on the coaches

You're right, it is up to the coaches to put the players in a position to succeed. But at the end of the day, the players are the ones executing (or not executing) the plays. The PLAYERS are the ones that are jumping offside, false starting, etc. 

 

While I believe there's plenty of blame to place on both parties, players and coaches, at the end of the day, the players are the ones on the field.

[C.Biscuit97]

On 9/12/2018 at 7:43 AM, SouthNYfan said:

Coach/GM for stacking the roster with players who "buy into the process" and completely forgoing talent to do so 

 

McDermott is basically Chip Kelly, with less arrogance/dbag and more Bible and clapping.

Chip Kelly was a good coach in Philly. He won 10 games his first 2 years with very average talent at qb.  What killed him is becoming the GM.  It’s why I hate how much power McDermott has.  He needs to be checked and have someone just for offensive personnel.

[SouthNYfan]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Chip Kelly was a good coach in Philly. He won 10 games his first 2 years with very average talent at qb.  What killed him is becoming the GM.  It’s why I hate how much power McDermott has.  He needs to be checked and have someone just for offensive personnel.

 

Exactly.

There are very few guys who can handle that responsibility.

Look at the Steelers with Tomlin.

Pittsburghy coaches have always been GM and coach.

He can obviously handle the offensive side of the ball, but their defense always has poor depth, and all the stars were holdovers from cowher if I'm remembering correctly, and they've slowly gotten worse and worse on defense under Tomlin.

On 9/12/2018 at 11:17 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's that truism, it's about the Jimmies and Joes not the X's and O's.

 

On the other hand, good coaching puts Jimmie and Joe in positions to succeed and plays to their strengths.   From what I've seen, I feel the OL scheme is asking our OL to do things it can't, and we're not figuring out how to exploit the opponent successfully.

 

Somehow McDermott & Co are saying for the first 4 games its alway uncertain what the opponent will give you, but the Ravens crafted a brilliant game that exploited our D scheme and the Jets stole the Lions signs through film study.

 

Huh.

 

Also, it's the guys making the xs and os who are choosing what jimmies and Johns are on the field.

When the coach-gm are asking the jimmies and Johns to do things they aren't capable of, that's on the coach, just like you said.

It's like sexy rexy asking dareus and Mario to drop into pass coverage... What!?

 

If you try to tow a 40' camper that weighs 12000 lbs with a Honda fit, it's not Honda's fault you blew an axle and grenaded your transmission... It's ur fault for not having the right equipment for the job 

User/operator error.

The gm/coach is the operator/user in this case.

[DRA3196]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 12:18 PM, CLTbills said:

You're right, it is up to the coaches to put the players in a position to succeed. But at the end of the day, the players are the ones executing (or not executing) the plays. The PLAYERS are the ones that are jumping offside, false starting, etc. 

 

While I believe there's plenty of blame to place on both parties, players and coaches, at the end of the day, the players are the ones on the field.

If the players aren't performing, isn't it up to the coaches to play the players that do perform, on the field? For Example- Continuity on the offensive line is important to that units success. If the coach switches out the center position every other day during camp and then in preseason, how is that continuity built? It can't be. If the HC decides to put players in different positions, during a game, than they have been practicing at, and plays a rookie QB, I believe he is setting up the QB and the line to fail. 

[Boatdrinks]

On 9/12/2018 at 8:25 AM, SoCal Deek said:

After Week One it’s the coaches for not assembling an NFL quality roster. The Bills didn’t get pummeled by lack of scheme. They got beat by lack of talent. As the season wears on we’ll see if this less than talented group continues to fight. If not, some of the blame will shift to the players for giving up. Tick, tick, tick.

Coaches wouldn’t be responsible for assembling the roster. They would be responsible for scheme. 

[SoTier]

On 9/12/2018 at 7:43 AM, SouthNYfan said:

Coach/GM for stacking the roster with players who "buy into the process" and completely forgoing talent to do so 

 

McDermott is basically Chip Kelly, with less arrogance/dbag and more Bible and clapping.

 

Point.  Set.  Match.  

 

Blaming the players for a team's failures is like blaming foot soldiers for losing battles rather the generals.