Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Maybe you thought that. Whaley didn't. He knew that (as was being reported at the time) 6 or more teams would pass on Lawson due to his well known shoulder injury which would require surgery not after an NFL season. Then Whaley created this laughable set up: "If something happens, it's going to happen. It's nothing that we're really worried about or we wouldn't take him. We have complete faith in our medical staff and they signed off on him, so we're excited to have him." Then...oooops!--during a "conditioning program" immediately after the draft, "something happened"! What happened during a routine day in the gym, you ask?... ....an "occurrence of the condition" (gotta love that line). And presto, oh my God, Shaq will not be able to play through the season after all. Shocking!! It's like all those teams that passed on him because of his well known surgically treatable shoulder injury somehow KNEW he would have surgery right after the draft----and therefore chose not to draft huim... Crazy coincidence you would say, right? Well, you may have some inside gouge we lack. Absent that, my thought was that Whaley got led down the Primrose Path by the team physicians on several occasions, and the Lawson pre-draft physical was one. Didn't the Bills change out medical staff with the coaching change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, you may have some inside gouge we lack. Absent that, my thought was that Whaley got led down the Primrose Path by the team physicians on several occasions, and the Lawson pre-draft physical was one. Didn't the Bills change out medical staff with the coaching change? He used the hapless medical staff to back him up. This is the crew that twice passed "Lights Out" Merriweather before he twice quickly went on IR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, you may have some inside gouge we lack. Absent that, my thought was that Whaley got led down the Primrose Path by the team physicians on several occasions, and the Lawson pre-draft physical was one. Didn't the Bills change out medical staff with the coaching change? There’s a very good question to which I don’t know the answer. Anyone? . Edited June 22, 2018 by Augie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DabillsDaBillsDaBills Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 3 hours ago, 3rdand12 said: But he was going to start right off the bus. I recall that comment IMO they expected him to start and play the season. IMO that was silly considering what was seemingly known by other head Coaches. Not a fan of Adolphus Washington either. Both heavy Rex influenced picks IMO. What about Ragland ? I am sure Whaley was doing his Coaches bidding went it came to draft weekend. We can only hope both Adolphus and more so Lawson, Shaq , show up big in training camp. Ragland had a very solid season for the Chiefs after McBeane traded him for a hill of beans. I don't really want to trade Shaq at this point. We'd be selling low on a guy that has a lot of potential (similar to Ragland trade). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 10 hours ago, stuvian said: Old Regime + High Salary = Gone They would have to find a trade partner, because that's the only way they save money against the cap. If they cut him, they actually take an additional $3.2M cap hit this year, whereas a trade will save them $1.3M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: He used the hapless medical staff to back him up. This is the crew that twice passed "Lights Out" Merriweather before he twice quickly went on IR. “Used” strikes me the wrong way at first, but I think that may be as much due to your acerbic history as anything. When I take a minute to think about your post I don’t think you’re saying he “used” the medical staff as much as you’re saying he “used” their passing grade on Lawson to backup his pick. That accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said: Ragland had a very solid season for the Chiefs after McBeane traded him for a hill of beans. I don't really want to trade Shaq at this point. We'd be selling low on a guy that has a lot of potential (similar to Ragland trade). In 2017, Ragland had 44 total tackles (31 solo) and 4 TFLs in 10 starts with no sacks, turnovers forced, or passes defensed. I wouldn't call that a solid season, let alone a "very solid" one. Take it a step further and consider that he had 8 solo tackles and 3 TFLs in one game against Buffalo, and another 8 solo tackles and 1 TFL the following week against the Giants, and you're talking about a guy that basically had 2 good back-to-back games in the middle of a season full of nondescript play. EDIT: I should note that I don't say that to knock Rags; a guy his size coming off of an ACL tear has a long way to go. I simply mean to point out that his 2017 campaign didn't exactly make Beane look foolish. Edited June 22, 2018 by thebandit27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 38 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: “Used” strikes me the wrong way at first, but I think that may be as much due to your acerbic history as anything. When I take a minute to think about your post I don’t think you’re saying he “used” the medical staff as much as you’re saying he “used” their passing grade on Lawson to backup his pick. That accurate? Pretty much. But they seemed to have the opposite medical opinion of several other teams that otherwise likely would have drafted Shaq ahead of the Bills. Their medical opinion certainly meshed with Whaley's overall plan...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irv Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) I hope all of the hype we have read about a new Shaq attitude is on target. But he just looks so slow to me. When he's in the game - it's like he's not even there. He crushed one dude last year I think in Miami in the backfield. But besides that, he's been a real snoozer. First round picks who are good at "setting the edge". Hmmm. I don't think he makes it. Sounds like he gets the fact that he could be out of the league. Hope he makes it but he really looks like another Whaley failure. Edited June 22, 2018 by Irv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 I think it would be incredibly stupid to give up on him so quick. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 16 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Pretty much. But they seemed to have the opposite medical opinion of several other teams that otherwise likely would have drafted Shaq ahead of the Bills. Their medical opinion certainly meshed with Whaley's overall plan...... As you well know medical opinions on players with an injury history are usually not clear cut. You are probably correct that some teams may have passed on Lawson because of shoulder concerns. On the other hand I'm sure that there were teams that were willing to draft him because their concerns were allayed based on their medical staffs' judgments. Judging a player with a medical history is not an easy call. The medical staff in Miami didn't clear Brees while the staff in New Orleans did. I'm sure there were dissenting views from the respective organizations. The book on Lawson isn't complete. Is he going to turn out to be a contributing player for the Bills or end up being dispatched? I don't know for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be a solid to good player for us. It that level of play materializes I will be more than happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalostu2 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 24 minutes ago, NewDayBills said: I think it would be incredibly stupid to give up on him so quick. I think you are correct but look what GM we are talking about. 29 minutes ago, Irv said: I hope all of the hype we have read about a new Shaq attitude is on target. But he just looks so slow to me. When he's in the game - it's like he's not even there. He crushed one dude last year I think in Miami in the backfield. But besides that, he's been a real snoozer. First round picks who are good at "setting the edge". Hmmm. I don't think he makes it. Sounds like he gets the fact that he could be out of the league. Hope he makes it but he really looks like another Whaley failure. So slow he tied for the team lead in sacks. Hughes is way faster but usually falls into the close but no cigar territory. Even though Hughes does get pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irv Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, buffalostu2 said: I think you are correct but look what GM we are talking about. So slow he tied for the team lead in sacks. Hughes is way faster but usually falls into the close but no cigar territory. Even though Hughes does get pressure. Will he make it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JohnC said: As you well know medical opinions on players with an injury history are usually not clear cut. You are probably correct that some teams may have passed on Lawson because of shoulder concerns. On the other hand I'm sure that there were teams that were willing to draft him because their concerns were allayed based on their medical staffs' judgments. Judging a player with a medical history is not an easy call. The medical staff in Miami didn't clear Brees while the staff in New Orleans did. I'm sure there were dissenting views from the respective organizations. The book on Lawson isn't complete. Is he going to turn out to be a contributing player for the Bills or end up being dispatched? I don't know for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be a solid to good player for us. It that level of play materializes I will be more than happy. By accounts, it seems the Bills staff is the only one of half a dozen---which likely be every other team that was considering picking him in the format round. They all passed because they were convinced he would need surgery in before he played. And they were correct. This isn't one staff vs another, not "to-may-toe" vs "to-mah-toe". This is all other interested teams vs Whaley. Anyway, my point is I think he knew too and picked him anyway--probably a lot higher than he had too. hasn't worked out. Edited June 22, 2018 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Can I consult the two other "will Shaq be on the roster?' threads and get back to you on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalostu2 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 21 minutes ago, Irv said: Will he make it? I think it is 50/50 he makes it. 50% he makes the team. 50% he gets traded. 0% he gets cut. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 If you look at the depth chart at OTA’s Shaq is probably the 4th DE on the roster behind Hughes, Murphy and Yarborough. He’s really going to have to work his way on the field. I can see a Reggie Ragland type trade unless Shaq has a big preseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 7 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: By accounts, it seems the Bills staff is the only one of half a dozen---which likely be every other team that was considering picking him in the format round. They all passed because they were convinced he would need surgery in before he played. And they were correct. This isn't one staff vs another, not "to-may-toe" vs "to-mah-toe". This is all other interested teams vs Whaley. Anyway, my point is I think he knew too and picked him anyway--probably a lot higher than he had too. hasn't worked out. I doubt that Buffalo was the only team that cleared him that was interested in him. You are making an assumption based on what? There is no doubt that some teams bypassed him because of the shoulder issue. But that doesn't mean that every team that had an interest in him wasn't willing to select him at what they believed to be a reasonable spot. Whether he needed an operation or not doesn't bother me too much. What bothered me more is that it should have been done sooner rather than later. When all is said and done having a medical issue in his rookie year isn't the real issue. The issue is can he be a good player in this league now and in the future. That is what we are going to find out in camp. If he can't play at a contributing level he will be moved. While you have already seemed to have made a conclusive judgment on him I have not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankoElTanko Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hebert19 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Best case scenario is the best players make the team regardless of draft hype/position. A lot of GM's hold onto high draft picks so they don't look bad. This regime can easily move on from him since they did not select him and I would not be surprised if they did at this point. What will be interesting is seening how they deal with a high round bust....do they move on as quickly as they are willing to move on from Whaley/Ryan picks or will they fall into the common trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Costa Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Shaq will show why he was a first round pick this year ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 48 minutes ago, buffalostu2 said: I think it is 50/50 he makes it. 50% he makes the team. 50% he gets traded. 0% he gets cut. Agreed. It might come down to what the team gets offered for him. He’s not really a good fit now so he’s got to be worth more to another team (where he’s a better scheme fit) than he is to the Bills. Sooner or later that trade happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Irv said: Will he make it? Your question is stupid!! His cap hit is 2.8 million and the dead money would be 6 million if cut. His play is the same as last year it would be crazy to cut him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadonkadonk Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 If they wanted to trade him, I don't think they would be calling him out in the media. They showcased Watkins before trading him. Dareus also got more praise from Leslie Frazier the last few weeks before he was traded. Calling him out is either a motivational tool or prepping the fan base for his release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, Dadonkadonk said: If they wanted to trade him, I don't think they would be calling him out in the media. They showcased Watkins before trading him. Dareus also got more praise from Leslie Frazier the last few weeks before he was traded. Calling him out is either a motivational tool or prepping the fan base for his release. Shaq is not being released. Beane is not taking a 6 million cap hit. Trading him costs 2.8 in a cap hit over this and next year. It makes his remaining contract very attractive for another club. Trade team cost for 2018 - 1.4 million Trade team cost for 2019 - 2.8 million Both years with no dead cap. Beane would trade him for a 7th before cutting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Egg Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 The only thing keeping him here is his 1st. round cap hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, I am the egg man said: The only thing keeping him here is his 1st. round cap hit. No, he's still here because he's a former 1st rounder who has been with the Bills for just 2 seasons, and has only appeared in 21 games for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 I think Lawson is competing for a roster spot, and probably has the inside track on the 3rd or 4th DE slot. Will he make it? Probably. But we don't know. My money, if I had any, is on yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Billieve Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Quit trolling Irv! 3 hours ago, artmalibu said: Your question is stupid!! His cap hit is 2.8 million and the dead money would be 6 million if cut. His play is the same as last year it would be crazy to cut him. Yea this is what Irv does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Irv said: I hope all of the hype we have read about a new Shaq attitude is on target. But he just looks so slow to me. When he's in the game - it's like he's not even there. He crushed one dude last year I think in Miami in the backfield. But besides that, he's been a real snoozer. First round picks who are good at "setting the edge". Hmmm. I don't think he makes it. Sounds like he gets the fact that he could be out of the league. Hope he makes it but he really looks like another Whaley failure. Lawson last season left a lot to be desired and getting hurt after 11 games does not help his cause much. However, there is no doubt that Shaq will get an honest shot to start on this team. Lorax, Hughes and Murphy will give him a good competition for playing time, they also signed that former Giants 3rd round pick to push him for a backup spot. There is a lot of competition at the DE position. Outside of Murphy who just signed a big deal I don't think any DE is safe to make the roster. Now it could be that no DE ends up having a good season. But if 1 player could have a "good season" (9ish sacks) and another have a decent season (6.5ish sacks) and 2 other players chip in 4 sacks then the depth will shine through. The Eagles were built in a similar fashion. They were 16th in the league in pass rush cobbling together 38 sacks with no double-digit sack players (Brandon Graham a former first round pick who hung around as a backup who never was a massive talent until this past season led their team with 9.5 sacks.) The Bills are designed that way in my opinion. It just looks to be Each player might be flawed but hopefully the new system of play takes advantage of the depth that could complement each player. Shaq and Hughes could stay in on run downs while Lorax and Murphy come in for pass rushing downs. 1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said: Shaq is not being released. Beane is not taking a 6 million cap hit. Trading him costs 2.8 in a cap hit over this and next year. It makes his remaining contract very attractive for another club. Trade team cost for 2018 - 1.4 million Trade team cost for 2019 - 2.8 million Both years with no dead cap. Beane would trade him for a 7th before cutting him. Would any team be willing to trade for him if he isn't lighting it up in camp? Does he have a whole lot of value if he comes off 2 bad seasons and a training camp/pre-season so bad that his team is willing to trade him for a 7th? If Shaq is really bad I suspect he is more than likely cut. Unless that former third-round pick from the Giants (whose name escapes me at the moment) and the rest of the other 3 DE's outperform Shaq at an amazing level where the Bills are trading Shaq out of luxury. So in my mind this training camp is it for him do or die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdFront_USAF Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 There was another team that drafted a pass rusher in the first, 31st overall in 2010. They only used him in spot duty, only getting a few starts in his 3 seasons with that team. After not having a ton of success in spot duty, they traded him to another team for a JAG linebacker drafted a year after him. He immediately earned a starting spot, and signed a big contract in 2015, while the linebacker they traded for was sent packing after the 2013 season, and is now out of he league after spending time with several different teams. Sound familiar? It should. The Colts gave up on Jerry Hughes after 3 limited seasons, and the Bills have been reaping the benefits ever since. I'm not going to say Shaq will enjoy similar success. Only that you don't give up on a 1st round talent entering his 3rd season unless there are serious locker room/effort/injury concerns (the kind that don't heal and will effect his career outlook). As much as I've been disappointed with him so far, he's only been in the league for 2 years. Let's give the guy a chance before moving on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDingus Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 12 hours ago, NewDayBills said: I think it would be incredibly stupid to give up on him so quick. Like Ragland? Yeah, we didn't even give him a chance, then let him go for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 The older I get, the less I worry about where players on drafted. Experience has taught me that scouting players and projecting their performance must be REALLY hard, or we wouldn’t see so many ‘busts’ and so many late bloomers. These guys are still kids coming out of college. There’s no telling How they’ll adapt to having a full time job, living in a new city, and working with grown men often much older than them. If Shaq makes it...great! If not, fine. My hope is the coaches put the best players on the field...period! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsredneck1 Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 i heard , i think, chris brown say he asked jerry hughes if shaq was faster this year and " jerry said without hesitation...yes" and praised his improvement. shaq will be in on run downs and rotate with murphy....imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 He played the run very well and was tied for most sacks after missing 6 games, his play as a rotational guy would worth the money. The only way he is not with the Bills its because they trade him for a good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 13 hours ago, JohnC said: I doubt that Buffalo was the only team that cleared him that was interested in him. You are making an assumption based on what? There is no doubt that some teams bypassed him because of the shoulder issue. But that doesn't mean that every team that had an interest in him wasn't willing to select him at what they believed to be a reasonable spot. Whether he needed an operation or not doesn't bother me too much. What bothered me more is that it should have been done sooner rather than later. When all is said and done having a medical issue in his rookie year isn't the real issue. The issue is can he be a good player in this league now and in the future. That is what we are going to find out in camp. If he can't play at a contributing level he will be moved. While you have already seemed to have made a conclusive judgment on him I have not. Reports at the time were the at least 6 other teams passed on him for this reason. How many more teams do you think were considering using their top 1-18 pick on Shaq's position? It's easy to conclude that every team picking before the Bills passed on Shaq for the medical clearance. As for the timing --sooner when?? The admission that he would, after all, need surgery was announced less than 3 weeks after the draft. It's clear to me that Whaley figured that other teams would pass on his for this reason and he wanted Shaq so badly, he happily took him in the first round thinking "sure, he'll need this surgery ASAP, we will schedule it as soon in the off season as possible (after some 'occurrence'), and he will be ready to go in a few months and he will be a STEAL and I will be seen as a GENIUS!". 2 seasons later the fully functional Shaq may not even make the roster because he, with or without an injury/surgery, isn't that good. Whaley's drafting, in a nutshell.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Yes. If he’s not on the roster opening day, it will most likely because he was traded, not because he was beaten out. Jmo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalobloodfloridahome Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 All the talk of him slimming down and getting quicker off the ball may of just been smoke for trade bait 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 16 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Reports at the time were the at least 6 other teams passed on him for this reason. How many more teams do you think were considering using their top 1-18 pick on Shaq's position? It's easy to conclude that every team picking before the Bills passed on Shaq for the medical clearance. As for the timing --sooner when?? The admission that he would, after all, need surgery was announced less than 3 weeks after the draft. It's clear to me that Whaley figured that other teams would pass on his for this reason and he wanted Shaq so badly, he happily took him in the first round thinking "sure, he'll need this surgery ASAP, we will schedule it as soon in the off season as possible (after some 'occurrence'), and he will be ready to go in a few months and he will be a STEAL and I will be seen as a GENIUS!". 2 seasons later the fully functional Shaq may not even make the roster because he, with or without an injury/surgery, isn't that good. Whaley's drafting, in a nutshell.... And that’s why he’s now a “scout” for a college bowl game no one has ever heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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