Solomon Grundy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Mat68 said: A Elite Qb no. But in the playoffs you need a Qb who is able to make big time throws to win the game. Bortles and Keenum yesterday as example. They are not elite but even throughout the season they have shown the ability to at times make big time plays that the Elite Qbs make more often. Flacco and Eli are not Elite but won Superbowls and played at a high level to do so. You need high level Qb play to advance far in the playoffs. The Qb may not need to be the first or second option but has to have the ability to do it when asked. That is the Bills problem. I think they are in line with the Steelers team when they drafted Big Ben. Pretty good D, good Running game but really need an improvement at Qb, The rookie can be a game manager and Buffalo can be successful. Get me a QB who can make plays!!!! Either with his arm or legs. Preferably both. Just make plays!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaviorPeterman Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 At the end of the day passing the football wins games, just ask Case Keenum and Blake Bortles who both led their teams to wins with their arms instead of relying on the perceived strengths of their teams (rushing the ball and great defense). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy KGB Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, KingRex said: Nope. Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 28 minutes ago, xRUSHx said: You need a QB to at least score when needed, to step up. 3 points by a QB in a big game is not a good QB that is just not good enough . If we had a QB that played just a little better the Jags great D wouldn't have advanced in the playoffs the Bills would have IMO. Agreed. TT is not a good qb and is the main reason we lost that game imo. 3 points. Jeezus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, ddaryl said: Defenses in the top 10 can also be a product of a potent Offense that keeps the other teams offense off the field, and your defense rested Would have to dive into that data, See Peyton Manning and Indianapolis Colts. See Kurt Warner and the greatest show on Turf Rams. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young34 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 49 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Youre not really comparing the QB ratings for guys who played in completely different eras are you? Tyrod has a better career QB rating than Jim Kelly. You're right, here's a Superbowl QB list from the same era: (1999) Chris Chandler (56.7% Comp, 2339 yds, 16 TD, 11 INT, 83 QBR) (2001) Trent Dilfer (59.8% Comp, 1014 Yds, 7 TD, 4 INT, 92 QBR) (2001) Kerry Collins (57.6% Comp, 3764 Yds, 19 TD, 16 INT, 77 QBR) (2003) Brad Johnson (62.1% Comp, 3811 Yds, 26 TD, 21 INT, 81 QBR) (2004) Jake Delhomme (58.2% Comp, 3886 Yds, 29 TD, 15 INT, 87 QBR) (2007) Rex Grossman (54.2% Comp, 1411 Yds, 4 TD, 7 INT, 66 QBR) vs. (2006) JP Losman (62.5% Comp, 3051 yds, 19 TD, 14 INT, 85 QBR) My point is that you can make it to the dance with bad to mediocre QB's, and we've had mediocre QB's on our roster in the past, as stats support. The defense is the difference maker, which is where the 83% of Superbowls being won by top 10 defenses comes in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 48 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Kelly, Elway, Marino...you can't compare guys across generations by rating. It would have been great to see those three QBs playing in the era of liberalized rules favoring QBs and the passing game. Conversely, I strongly doubt Brady, Brees, Manning, and other QBs who thrived after those rules changes would amass the kinds of numbers in that previous era. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Young34 said: You're right, here's a Superbowl QB list from the same era: (1999) Chris Chandler (56.7% Comp, 2339 yds, 16 TD, 11 INT, 83 QBR) (2001) Trent Dilfer (59.8% Comp, 1014 Yds, 7 TD, 4 INT, 92 QBR) (2001) Kerry Collins (57.6% Comp, 3764 Yds, 19 TD, 16 INT, 77 QBR) (2003) Brad Johnson (62.1% Comp, 3811 Yds, 26 TD, 21 INT, 81 QBR) (2004) Jake Delhomme (58.2% Comp, 3886 Yds, 29 TD, 15 INT, 87 QBR) (2007) Rex Grossman (54.2% Comp, 1411 Yds, 4 TD, 7 INT, 66 QBR) vs. (2006) JP Losman (62.5% Comp, 3051 yds, 19 TD, 14 INT, 85 QBR) My point is that you can make it to the dance with bad to mediocre QB's, and we've had mediocre QB's on our roster in the past, as stats support. The defense is the difference maker, which is where the 83% of Superbowls being won by top 10 defenses comes in. SO are we just going to ignore that yesterday had dittly poo to do with Defense and it was high powered offenses that won games? You take your stout D that will be together for 2-3 years until you have to start paying everyone and it starts to fall apart. Ill take Rodgers/Brady/Breese for 15 years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young34 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Just now, CountDorkula said: SO are we just going to ignore that yesterday had dittly poo to do with Defense and it was high powered offenses that won games? You take your stout D that will be together for 2-3 years until you have to start paying everyone and it starts to fall apart. Ill take Rodgers/Brady/Breese for 15 years. It's not my opinion, it's fact driven by stats over many years, not just from yesterday's games. "When the Atlanta Falcons face the New England Patriots in the Super Bowl on Sunday, it will be the eighth time the No. 1 scoring offense has faced the No. 1 scoring defense in the Super Bowl. And the defense has won every matchup but one." https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/super-bowl-51-new-england-patriots-atlanta-falcons-number-1-defense-vs-offense-matchups-49ers-seahawks-packers-steelers-chiefs-giants-020117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maine-iac Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, NewEraBills said: See Baltimore Ravens from 2000 forward. Their lack offense from all those years wasted their top defensive units. Then their latest SB was because the offense got better. But since then they are back in the same boat. Their offense cannot sustain drives, the defense gets gassed and they cannot finish games. Didn't look like their offense when Dalton threw a TD on 4th and 12. They scored almost a full TD more per game than us and they would have been in but the defense didn't hold. Edited January 15, 2018 by Maine-iac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nedboy7 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 It is to bills fans it seems. Almost as if it’s the only thing that matters. Now define franchise qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Iron Maiden said: With an elite Defense, you can get there...and be in the hunt for 2-3 years...with an elite QB, you can get there and be in the hunt for 10 years.... ....agree IM....besides what is the definition of a franchise or elite QB?....OR....does it depend on "what the definition of IS is"?.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 We've tried the whole no franchise QB for more than 20 years. I say we switch it up and roll the dice with a franchise QB. Variety is the spice of life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 The Vikings won yesterday because when all the chips were on the table their Quarterback made a big time throw to win it for them. Yes the Saints D blew a tackle but Keenum still had to make the throw in the first place. The Vikings win is proof you do need a Quarterback not the opposite. As for Bortles and the Jags... I put that game down to anomoly. Odd game that played out strangely. If the Jags D isn't better against New England they have no chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEraBills Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Maine-iac said: Didn't look like their offense when Dalton threw a TD on 4th and 12. They scored almost a full TD more per game than us and they would have been in but the defense didn't hold. Their offense was trash the entire first half mostly. Defense actually kept them in the game. Sure their defense gave up the play at the end but with them it's always been defense holds as long as it can, offense stinks it up early. Defense fades from fatigue late because offense couldn't sustain anything early. Plus since Pees took over their defense it hasn't had the killer instinct it had in the past. So you had a coordinator who played mostly bend/don't break + an offense who constantly went 3 and out the entire first half. That's a recipe for fatigue. Also I'd say check their passing stats on the year. One of the WORSE in the league. They ran the football well though. Edited January 15, 2018 by NewEraBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: The Vikings won yesterday because when all the chips were on the table their Quarterback made a big time throw to win it for them. Yes the Saints D blew a tackle but Keenum still had to make the throw in the first place. The Vikings win is proof you do need a Quarterback not the opposite. As for Bortles and the Jags... I put that game down to anomoly. Odd game that played out strangely. If the Jags D isn't better against New England they have no chance. ....glad the upstart Vikes pulled it out....STRICTLY opinion, but I've never warmed up to Brees....good?...of course....ME player?...absolutely....STAT GUY?...absolutely again...put Saints in cap trouble with his salary demands so let's see if he does it again as a UFA or takes a Brady cut for the team....and if the Vikes sign Keenum & Bridgewater along with their defense (shades of the Purple People Eaters ala Paige, Eller, Marshall & Larsen), they could be a force for a long time......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swnybillsfan Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 42 minutes ago, nedboy7 said: It is to bills fans it seems. Almost as if it’s the only thing that matters. Now define franchise qb. i tend to think that you need a qb that gives you (and more importantly, his coaches and teammates) the feeling that, with the ball in his hands, you are never out of it. there is always a chance. somebody that has the drive, the will, and the ability to lead the team to victory, no matter the situation. i know this is all rather vague and conceptual, but this is the guy you need. just my opinion here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, swnybillsfan said: i tend to think that you need a qb that gives you (and more importantly, his coaches and teammates) the feeling that, with the ball in his hands, you are never out of it. there is always a chance. somebody that has the drive, the will, and the ability to lead the team to victory, no matter the situation. i know this is all rather vague and conceptual, but this is the guy you need. just my opinion here. ...damn good assessment....and probably one of THE better ones I've seen without using the ELITE or FRANCHISE buzz words....nicely done..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CajunBillsBacker Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Out of all the Super Bowl winning starting QB’s, I counted only like 6-7 of them that aren’t in the HOF or future HOFers. The ones who sustained success through their career are all elite first ballot HOFers. So yeah it’s possible to win a Super Bowl with an average QB. Hell Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer won titles, with the assistance of elite defenses, but if you want to sustain success and be a title contender every year then you need to find a young Drew Brees, or Aaron Rodgers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeTime101 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 NO but here is the thing.. You better have top 2 or 3 defense going into the playoffs to get away with it and that doesn't happen every year. To be consistent you need a good QB. You know.. one that knows how to throw a ball? yea... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I think with a QB like Alex Smith, Keenum or AJ McCarron and we beat the Jags. With any of those QB's that I just listed we don't need Andy Dalton's TD pass to make the playoffs. 22 minutes ago, swnybillsfan said: i tend to think that you need a qb that gives you (and more importantly, his coaches and teammates) the feeling that, with the ball in his hands, you are never out of it. there is always a chance. somebody that has the drive, the will, and the ability to lead the team to victory, no matter the situation. i know this is all rather vague and conceptual, but this is the guy you need. just my opinion here. I agree, when I was watching the Saints game I was thinking the same thing. I was Thinking if the Saints had Taylor at QB being down by 17 I would feel like that game is over. I came to the conclusion that it is Taylor that gives me this sense of not being able to win. When we go down by 10 or lose a lead in the 4th Qtr I always get the feeling like the game is over and it usually is with Taylor at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said: I think with a QB like Alex Smith, Keenum or AJ McCarron and we beat the Jags. With any of those QB's that I just listed we don't need Andy Dalton's TD pass to make the playoffs. .......allegedly Andy wants a 2nd for Alex who comes with a $17 mil tariff and is a UFA in 2019......offer a 3rd and see if you can sign him for one more year.......Vikes would be fools to let Keenum walk as he is the only healthy one.....they probably re-sign him, offer Teddy a deal and let Bradford walk (IF HE CAN)........good 'ol OBD should have taken that 4th flyer on McCarron out of 'Bama.....nothing flashy, but a level headed cerebral that may garner a 2nd or 3rd now........Stanton out of 'Zona is a UFA and has more game experience than McCarron...he was a 2nd out of MSU that went to the Lions and is coming off a 2 year, $6.5 mil deal with 'Zona that had $4.5 mil guaranteed, his second stint behind Palmer........ Edited January 16, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I have an idea. Why don't we find a top 10 franchise QB AND develop a top 10 defense. Boom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Yes. If you don't get it after watching this team for the past 2 decades, you never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrivefourfive Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 In the divsional round of the playoffs, Keenum threw for over 300 yards on 40 attempts against a good, albeit young, defensive secondary. He won that game with poise, confidence, and determination. And the Vikings want him gone! If he did this for the Bills, they'd award him with a $325 mil contract. My stupid point is that the Bills are so far away from these elite organizations that a franchise quarterback will not be realized or cashed in on until so many other things are in place. Are some of those things in place now? - WE DON'T KNOW YET, and that has been the problem for last 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthNYfan Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 7 hours ago, Mat68 said: A Elite Qb no. But in the playoffs you need a Qb who is able to make big time throws to win the game. Bortles and Keenum yesterday as example. They are not elite but even throughout the season they have shown the ability to at times make big time plays that the Elite Qbs make more often. Flacco and Eli are not Elite but won Superbowls and played at a high level to do so. You need high level Qb play to advance far in the playoffs. The Qb may not need to be the first or second option but has to have the ability to do it when asked. That is the Bills problem. I think they are in line with the Steelers team when they drafted Big Ben. Pretty good D, good Running game but really need an improvement at Qb, The rookie can be a game manager and Buffalo can be successful. This. Do you need a QB chucking 400yards? No. Do you need a QB who can consistently make throws WHEN NEEDED? Yes. Christ look at super bowl winning QBs in last 20 years The only subpar winners who stand out are: Trent dilfer and Brad Johnson. They had all time great defenses. All the QBs were either elite, had an elite hot streak (flacco, Eli twice) or were game managers who MADE THROWS WHEN NEEDED. I have never been confident Tyrod could be "that guy" to nail a 8 yard curl on 3rd and 7 when you're down in the 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) Bump this in three weeks when Keenum, Foles and Bortles watch Brady hoist another Lombardi. Edited January 16, 2018 by Binghamton Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 16 hours ago, KingRex said: Nope. How deep? Making the conference championships? Nah. Winning one? Much more so. Winning a Super Bowl? Much much more so. A team without a franchise quality QB wins a Super Bowl around 10% of the time, and that's not a model you want to follow. 9 hours ago, Binghamton Beast said: Bump this in three weeks when Keenum, Foles and Bortles watch Brady hoist another Lombardi. And the Eagles aren't about Foles. They're about 10% Foles and 90% Wentz. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I feel like we've been debating this same topic since the drought. The easiest way to be consistently competitive and compete for a Superbowl is to have a franchise QB. If you don't, you better hire a great coaching staff and hit on nearly all your draft picks and free agent signings (which is incredibly difficult to do). Even if you do it's unlikely you have sustained success without a franchise quarterback (see the 2016 and 2017 Broncos). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell Tarly Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 The afc of the last 15 years is all you need to see. 4 qbs have made the super bowl in that time. Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, and 1 lone appearance by Flacco. A lot of almost great teams have beat their heads against the glass ceiling only to fall to the AFC's big 3 in that time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 The whole idea that it was defense that win games this past weekend is a bit ridiculous no? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideRightRevenge Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 We've had a top 10 defense more than a few times during the drought ... I'll take a franchise QB for a change ... the dink and dunk of the past 17 years has grown extremely tiresome as well as the inability for a Bills QB to lead a 4th quarter comeback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 It's all about consistency. Think about this logically. The more often a team makes the playoffs, the more often they win their division, the more often they get a first round bye, etc, etc. - the better odds they have at winning a Super Bowl. If a team has a quarterback like Tom Brady or Ben Roethlisberger, they have exactly ONE PLAYER they need to keep under contract to be a yearly contender. Even if the rest of the team is mediocre, they will still be fighting for a playoff spot year in, year out. And based on the current NFL rules, quarterbacks take less hits than in the past, allowing them to play 15-20 years in many cases. Compare that to a team like Jacksonville or Minnesota. Teams that are built mostly around defense. Those teams need to keep 10-11 elite players under contract and healthy to remain contenders. Every year, those teams will have 2-3 key pieces looking for big deals in free agency. Before long, the salary cap starts pulling the team apart. There is a brief window of 3-4 years (at most) before that "elite" defense becomes a "very good" defense and can't carry them to a championship anymore. There is a reason the 1984 Chicago Bears won only one Super Bowl. There is a reason the 2000 Baltimore Ravens won only one Super Bowl. There is a reason people are saying the Seattle Seahawks' window has closed. Yes, it's possible to win a Super Bowl without an elite quarterback. But it's very rare, and those teams disappear quickly. Also notice that when it does happen, the non-franchise quarterback in question is pretty much always playing at a franchise level. We can argue all day about whether Case Keenum is actually a franchise QB. But the only thing that really matters is... he's playing like one right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuvian Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 elite defenses rarely stay on top for long whereas great QBs can last a decade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramza86 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 The QB is the one that gets u there every year. The rest of the team helps the qb win those games in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I don't need an elite HOF man at the helm, but one who has a primary interest in dropping back in to the pocket and throwing the ball more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage with some level of competence would be very nice, please and thank you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 The Eagles are where they are because of an elite QB who got them to an 11-2 start. Philly does not go 13-3 without him, and they don't win that game on the road. Foles was alright in Saturday's game, but 15 points is 15 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwell Tarly Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 11 hours ago, stuvian said: elite defenses rarely stay on top for long whereas great QBs can last a decade True. Sooner or later they all wanna get paid, can't pay them all. Plus the minute your team shows any promise there go half of your coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJ Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 No, but a franchise caliber QB gives you much better odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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