The offense is better without Gabe Davis

[KellyToTasker]

1 hour ago, DuckyBoys said:

Kincaid's been dropping his share past few  weeks  Mist be hanging out w Knox too much

He pretty much only drops the

poorly thrown passes. Knox drops many of the well thrown passes. They’re not the same.

[Nextmanup]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Now, if we could get one more sure handed guy and get rid of Knox

Last year when we took Kincaid with such a high draft pick I said the team would move on from Knox, and my post got slammed with people disagreeing and thumbs downing, etc.

 

Now comments like yours are increasingly common and don't seem to hit any friction.

 

We will definitely move on from Knox when we can.  His K is not tradable.

 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

100%

[KellyToTasker]

42 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Your analysis of the game is a bit myopic in my opinion.

 

Having those playmakers on the field, with their speed, was stressing the Steelers defense. Did you notice we had more open receivers this week (the first two TD’s were very open) than usual? It’s in part due to the stress that the speed on the field had on the Steelers. They had to compensate for it.

And this man has to get the ball more:

 

 

I 110% agree, it was crazy how much of a cushion they had at times. I hope Davis doesn’t play as much. Let the other guys play, it’s working. 

[NewEra]

10 is a baller.  Get him the ball.  86,4 +10 on rookie contracts puts us in a good position. 
 

we just need to fend off injuries ffs. 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

Edited January 16 by NewEra

[Kwai San]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Sigh. Knox is an enigma. He does so many good things… but then drops a wide open pass that hits him square in the hands. Frustrating.

 

I’d also like to see Kincaid go up and get the ball too. He would have had a 2nd TD if he didn’t wait for the ball to get to him (allowed the defender to deflect it). If he had went up and hand-caught it (ala Gronk), he would unlock a new level.

Ummmm - he is a rookie still.....let's give him some time.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 hours ago, streetkings01 said:

Gabe going up against his favorite team this week.

Offense scored 31 points…..should’ve been 37.

Ok. And they let Pittsburgh get back into the game before putting them away.

[Buffalo Boy]

6 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Last year when we took Kincaid with such a high draft pick I said the team would move on from Knox, and my post got slammed with people disagreeing and thumbs downing, etc.

 

Now comments like yours are increasingly common and don't seem to hit any friction.

 

We will definitely move on from Knox when we can.  His K is not tradable.

 

 

 

, I was definitely not one of the slammers. Knox has not been dependable from the get go. He’s a good story and a nice guy but we have all seen enough. 
 

[papazoid]

"The offense is better without Gabe Davis"

 

i agree....

 

how many interceptions did josh throw ?......answer: NONE !......that's not a coincidence.

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, Einstein said:

Is refreshing.

Gabe being out allowed us to get our playmakers like Hardy and Shakir on the field more often (more snaps to go around). And they both delivered at key times!

 

And it’s not just the opponent. That Steelers defense was #6 in the NFL in points against, and that was the MOST points the Steelers gave up all season (and that’s even with TWO missed field goals).

 

 

other than Diggs, the Bills WRs had 3 catches yesterday.   Harty had a good RAC on his one catch yesterday but otherwise hasn't done anything the past 3 weeks.  After the half, the Bills struggled---Murray was getting targets?!  On their 1st series they punted.  On the second series, 14 plays and only once was a WR targeted. FG was the result.  Next series, 2 WRs targeted in 9 plays, TD. 

With the lead slipping away, Allen attempted 10 passes in the second half, only 3 to WRs.  For the game, the RBs had more targets than Shakir and Harty.

 

I think they could have used Davis out there for sure.

 

This thread is just a cheap shot.

[streetkings01]

6 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Ok. And they let Pittsburgh get back into the game before putting them away.

We won 31-17…..we scored 30+ points and we kept the Steelers under 20. It’s the playoffs and that was a good dub!

[mjt328]

The Steelers were very thin at Linebacker, and it's clear we focused on attacking them with our Tight Ends.

 

Against the Chiefs, we may need some production from the outside receivers.  Getting Gabe Davis back would be very good.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

other than Diggs, the Bills WRs had 3 catches yesterday.  

 

4, actually. Including the game clinching TD.

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/252550-the-offense-is-better-without-gabe-davis/?do=findComment&comment=8878849

 

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Einstein said:

The offense is better without Gabe Davis

 

And it’s not just the opponent. That Steelers defense was #6 in the NFL in points against, and that was the MOST points the Steelers gave up all season (and that’s even with TWO missed field goals).

 

 

 

It absolutely is just the opponent. Every opponent is different. Which often means different personnel groups and game plans work better against some teams than others.

 

The offense is better varying personnel and tactics week to week and depending on the game plan and the defense's capabilities, personnel and specific game plans for the Bills offense.

 

The Steelers are the 21st ranked defense. They aren't playing that badly right now, but without Watt they also weren't themselves at all.

 

Oh, and don't act like you're being intellectually fair by mentioning the "TWO missed field goals" and then forgetting to mention that one Bill TD came on a 1-play 29 yard drive. Drives that start on your opponent's 29 yard line aren't mostly on the defense if you score. And one of the missed field goals came on a drive starting at the Pittsburgh 32. One more drive started at the Bills 44. Drive starts like that will greatly jack up your odds of scoring more.

 

 

10 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Last year when we took Kincaid with such a high draft pick I said the team would move on from Knox, and my post got slammed with people disagreeing and thumbs downing, etc.

 

Now comments like yours are increasingly common and don't seem to hit any friction.

 

We will definitely move on from Knox when we can.  His K is not tradable.

 

 

 

 

 

If by "definitely" you mean that it's not impossible, I'd have to agree.

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

It absolutely is just the opponent.

 

The Steelers are the 21st ranked defense.

 

6th ranked actually, in points given up per game. Which is a far more telling stat than yards given up, wouldn’t you say?

 

The offense tied the highest points output we have had in 7 weeks. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

other than Diggs, the Bills WRs had 3 catches yesterday.   Harty had a good RAC on his one catch yesterday but otherwise hasn't done anything the past 3 weeks.  After the half, the Bills struggled---Murray was getting targets?!  On their 1st series they punted.  On the second series, 14 plays and only once was a WR targeted. FG was the result.  Next series, 2 WRs targeted in 9 plays, TD. 

With the lead slipping away, Allen attempted 10 passes in the second half, only 3 to WRs.  For the game, the RBs had more targets than Shakir and Harty.

 

I think they could have used Davis out there for sure.

 

This thread is just a cheap shot.

The ‘struggle’ is a bit overblown imo…Steelers are a good defense even without watt…you’re not gonna score a td every time.  A Tomlin defense giving up 31 and possibly more if we didn’t ice the game is very unusual 

6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It absolutely is just the opponent. Every opponent is different. Which often means different personnel groups and game plans work better against some teams than others.

 

The offense is better varying personnel and tactics week to week and depending on the game plan and the defense's capabilities, personnel and specific game plans for the Bills offense.

 

The Steelers are the 21st ranked defense. They aren't playing that badly right now, but without Watt they also weren't themselves at all.

 

Oh, and don't act like you're being intellectually fair by mentioning the "TWO missed field goals" and then forgetting to mention that one Bill TD came on a 1-play 29 yard drive. Drives that start on your opponent's 29 yard line aren't mostly on the defense if you score. And one of the missed field goals came on a drive starting at the Pittsburgh 32. One more drive started at the Bills 44. Drive starts like that will greatly jack up your odds of scoring more.

 

 

 

 

If by "definitely" you mean that it's not impossible, I'd have to agree.

21st ranked defense?  Lol theyre like 6th in DVOA and points allowed 

[skibum]

I think the Bills offense is better when they are playing the Steelers.

 

Davis has had some big games vs. the Chiefs - they are going to need him out there. 

Edited January 16 by skibum

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

6th ranked actually, in points given up per game. Which is a far more telling stat than yards given up, wouldn’t you say?

 

The offense tied the highest points output we have had in 7 weeks. 

I’ll genuinely never understand how people will talk our opponents up all week then we win and they’re like ‘well our opponent was bad’ 😂. Mason Rudolph was on a heater which prompted the benching of Pickett who was ready for the Vikings game but we beat a third string qb apparently and bad defense lol 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

other than Diggs, the Bills WRs had 3 catches yesterday.   Harty had a good RAC on his one catch yesterday but otherwise hasn't done anything the past 3 weeks.  After the half, the Bills struggled---Murray was getting targets?!  On their 1st series they punted.  On the second series, 14 plays and only once was a WR targeted. FG was the result.  Next series, 2 WRs targeted in 9 plays, TD. 

With the lead slipping away, Allen attempted 10 passes in the second half, only 3 to WRs.  For the game, the RBs had more targets than Shakir and Harty.

 

I think they could have used Davis out there for sure.

 

This thread is just a cheap shot.

 

What, to run the wrong route or to drop the ball?

 

Brady was game planning what the D was giving them and it worked. The WRs were getting open and the Stillers adjusted so Brady adjusted...

[Logic]

Kind of a small sample size, no?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, streetkings01 said:

We won 31-17…..we scored 30+ points and we kept the Steelers under 20. It’s the playoffs and that was a good dub!

All true. I just don’t think the offense was great. Allen was. I would probably say we didn’t miss Davis, but I wont say it was better.

[Mojo44]

14 hours ago, Einstein said:

Is refreshing.

Gabe being out allowed us to get our playmakers like Hardy and Shakir on the field more often (more snaps to go around). And they both delivered at key times!

 

And it’s not just the opponent. That Steelers defense was #6 in the NFL in points against, and that was the MOST points the Steelers gave up all season (and that’s even with TWO missed field goals).

 

One game and you derive such a absolute conclusion! An N of 1 doesn’t cut it. The real Einstein is turning in his grave right now. Respectfully, a bad take.

[Codyny13]

The Bills have done well in the absence of Davis, it has allowed the tightends and other receivers to make plays. That being said, Gabe is a good player and our best blocking WR. Going forward the Bills need to see that they can win with multiple personnel packages, but that being said, I’d love to have him back this Sunday. He’s been a chiefs killer in the past, and allows us to do different things.

[Einstein]

28 minutes ago, Logic said:

Kind of a small sample size, no?

 

Well, we have a 40+ game history of Gabe dropping balls, or not being in tune with Allen, or being a complete non-factor. This game was just confirmation of what I long hypothesized.

 

I don’t even blame HIM per-say. He may be very good on another team. But I think his presence in THIS offense is a net negative. Nearly 40% of Allen’s INT’s occur when targeting Gabe. Then Gabe is out for a game and Allen doesn’t throw an INT for only the second time in 12 weeks. And he is often not on the same page with Allen on choice routes. And when that’s not happening, he drops his fair share of balls (his career catch rate is in the 50% range). And more Gabe on the field means less Shakir.

Lots of different factors here that represent a fairly LARGE sample size.

 

So even though Gabe can be a good player, I just don’t think he is right for this particular offense.

[Process]

The offense is better without Davis playing 90% of snaps****

 

They are not better without him. He still has value as a blocker and down field threat. He just isn't an every down, starting WR. 

[Meatloaf63]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

other than Diggs, the Bills WRs had 3 catches yesterday.   Harty had a good RAC on his one catch yesterday but otherwise hasn't done anything the past 3 weeks.  After the half, the Bills struggled---Murray was getting targets?!  On their 1st series they punted.  On the second series, 14 plays and only once was a WR targeted. FG was the result.  Next series, 2 WRs targeted in 9 plays, TD. 

With the lead slipping away, Allen attempted 10 passes in the second half, only 3 to WRs.  For the game, the RBs had more targets than Shakir and Harty.

 

I think they could have used Davis out there for sure.

 

This thread is just a cheap shot.

No, they should be scheming Shakir to be a target more often. It’s a shame he’s not seeing more targets.

[C.Biscuit97]

They scored 38 against the Steelers with Watt and a healthy Fitzpatrick last year with Gabe. 
 

these overreaction threads to one game are insane. 

[Mango]

With all the Gabe stinks this and Diggs is toast that, I think this offense is working how it is supposed to work,  it is just more efficient this way. The ball doesn't have to go to WR 1 or WR 2 on the outside. We have 2 or 3 very reliable pass catchers in Diggs, Kincaid, and Shakir/Cook. Everybody else are role players. Make the defense cover everybody. 

[Mojo44]

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Well, we have a 40+ game history of Gabe dropping balls, or not being in tune with Allen, or being a complete non-factor. This game was just confirmation of what I long hypothesized.

 

I don’t even blame HIM per-say. He may be very good on another team. But I think his presence in THIS offense is a net negative. Nearly 40% of Allen’s INT’s occur when targeting Gabe. Then Gabe is out for a game and Allen doesn’t throw an INT for only the second time in 12 weeks. And he is often not on the same page with Allen on choice routes. And when that’s not happening, he drops his fair share of balls (his career catch rate is in the 50% range). And more Gabe on the field means less Shakir.

Lots of different factors here that represent a fairly LARGE sample size.

 

So even though Gabe can be a good player, I just don’t think he is right for this particular offense.

Your “data“ seems cherry picked. Also, without quoting a source how do we know if any of this is true? You are also missing all of his contributions and many games that include both his pass catching and his run blocking. None of what you have said here is predictive or backs your hypothesis. It is an opinion without substantial facts to back it up. The bottom line is the team is better when Davis is playing.

[Don Otreply]

I really do hope that with Davis likely being back that Brady continues to use “ ALL THE WEAPONS” the offense has and not go back to a WR centric Dorsey style pass game, we need KC to have to cover everyone and every inch of the field, 

 

GO BILLS!!!

[ddaryl]

12 hours ago, Brand J said:

Davis >> Knox

 

NO, at best its a wash.

 

Gabe gets a lot more targets but catches 54% on avg per season (thats horrible) but as WR he gets more YPC 16.7 avg

Knox gets less targets and YPC but catches 64% of the passes with YPC 11.5 avg

Both are replaceable but Gabe will be let go this offseason. I wouldn't even offer him a home discount deal

Edited January 16 by ddaryl

[Einstein]

Just now, Mojo44 said:

Your “data“ seems cherry picked. 

 

What is cherry-picked about catch-rate, INT’s when targeted, and not being on the same page as the QB? As a wide receiver, what could possibly be more important than running the right routes and catching the ball?

 

Of course we can agree to disagree on the offense being better without Gabe but i’m not sure how anything i’ve written is cherry picked.

[Dubie54]

That's way to black and white.

 

He has a role in the offense and has been valuable both as a pass catcher and a blocker. But we have also seen the emergence of of Shakir and even Harty, not to mention Kincaid, so I think that there's less of a need to rely on Gabe and his role doesn't need to be as big. I just hope that Brady keeps throwing multiple formations and moving the ball around to keep defenses off balance.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, ddaryl said:

 

NO, at best its a wash.

 

Gabe gets a lot more targets but catches 54% on avg per season but as WR he gets more YPC 16.7 avg

Knox gets less targets and YPC but catches 64% of the passes with YPC 11.5 avg

Both are replaceable but Gabe will be let go this offseason. I wouldn't even offer him a home discount deal

 

Both have had some drop issues their entire careers.  Both are plus blockers.  Knox is probably our most consistent red zone target.  Davis is more of a downfield threat to stretch that last level of the defense either vertically or horizontally.

 

Both are good players - we act like they're trash, but both would play a lot of snaps if they were on... any of the remaining playoff teams most likely.  

[HOUSE]

It's better without Kelvin Benjamin too

[transient]

I think the offense is better when Gabe isn't a focal point, which actually allows him to have more success. He does not thrive under the pressure of being a focal point, which is why he should not be WR2. Incorporating Shakir, Kincaid, Harty and Cook more by design and limiting plays designed to go to Gabe would be ideal. At season's end, he's going to want WR2 money and someone is likely going to pay him that, it just better not be the Bills. They need to draft a Diggs replacement and get WR1a/b production on a rookie contract.

 

Re Knox, the Bills are unbeaten since his return from wrist surgery... just sayin'. I think he's a more traditional TE with regard to blocking and offers some route running ability, which would be much more valuable if he would actually catch the damn ball more than 50% of the time. I do think his presence on the field gives defenses one more thing to worry about, though.

[ddaryl]

10 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Both have had some drop issues their entire careers.  Both are plus blockers.  Knox is probably our most consistent red zone target.  Davis is more of a downfield threat to stretch that last level of the defense either vertically or horizontally.

 

Both are good players - we act like they're trash, but both would play a lot of snaps if they were on... any of the remaining playoff teams most likely.  

Gabe is replaceable and can be improved upon. I can safely say I don't understand anyone's defense of Gabe Davis, a blocking WR thats considerd your #2 WR, who has a limited route tree, and has never caught 60% of his targets in any season, that is weak sauce, or as you called it...trash. Passed due to move on from. 

Knox is here for another 2 to 3 years, no way out of this till then.

Edited January 16 by ddaryl

[Bray Wyatt]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

They scored 38 against the Steelers with Watt and a healthy Fitzpatrick last year with Gabe. 
 

these overreaction threads to one game are insane. 

 

Watt did not play last year

[Mojo44]

14 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

What is cherry-picked about catch-rate, INT’s when targeted, and not being on the same page as the QB? As a wide receiver, what could possibly be more important than running the right routes and catching the ball?

 

Of course we can agree to disagree on the offense being better without Gabe but i’m not sure how anything i’ve written is cherry picked.

Simple. You cherry pick what you assert to be a 40% interception read when Josh passage to him would you provide no support of evidence for. Nor do you account for all the value he adds. There is no compelling reason to believe your “data“. Even if it was true, which we don’t know, it’s correlational and cause-and-effect can’t be determined. My biggest problem with your take is that you presented as empirical evidence when it is only an opinion that is really not based on such evidence. Otherwise, yes we can disagree as to whether or not the team is better with him on the field. I believe it is. But that’s my opinion.

Edited January 16 by Mojo44

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, ddaryl said:

Gabe is replaceable and can be improved upon. I can safely say I don't understand anyone's defense of Gabe Davis, a blocking WR thats considerd your #2 WR, who has a limited route tree, and has never caught 60% of his targets in any season, that is weak sauce, or as you called it...trash. Passed due to move on from. 

Knox is here for another 2 to 3 years, no way out of this till then.

 

I don't really care about his catch% when the majority of his targets are lower percentage throws further down the field.