Devils advocate...what is Josh is the problem?

[4merper4mer]

5 hours ago, Westside said:

These people think that getting rid of Josh will solve all the problems. 

A grand total of zero people have remotely suggested getting rid of Josh.  Not one.  Anyone who dares suggest he might not be a Ruth, Gretzky, Jordan, Ali, Pele and Tendulkar rolled into one is met with derision of the highest order.  It’s weird.

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, Aimee75 said:

Boy did I hit a nerve or what? 🙄I have my own thoughts and opinions and am entitled to them, and people can feel free to disagree. I just think when you start getting into a players personal life, you get an idea of why there are some biases.

 

 

I gave a reasonably soft yet direct response without a whole lot of emotion or a at name calling.
 

Again. Stop trying to delegitimize the posters here and have conversations about the topics at hand.

 

So far we’ve talked no football but you’ve mentioned that:

 

- people who have less than 1000 posts  and have an unpopular opinion are trolls.

- people who talk negatively about Josh are holding a 6 year grudge.

- pointing any of this out is overly emotional (“hit a nerve”)

 

Can we please stop putting down posters and start having legitimate conversations about the play and personnel of this football team. Sheesh. 

 

[Aimee75]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

I gave a reasonably soft yet direct response without a whole lot of emotion or a at name calling.
 

Again. Stop trying to delegitimize the posters here and have conversations about the topics at hand.

 

So far we’ve talked no football but you’ve mentioned that:

 

- people who have less than 1000 posts  and have an unpopular opinion are trolls.

- people who talk negatively about Josh are holding a 6 year grudge.

- pointing any of this out is overly emotional (“hit a nerve”)

 

Can we please stop putting down posters and start having legitimate conversations about the play and personnel of this football team. Sheesh. 

 

Are you a mod? Let them worry about what I talk about. On top of that, you are lying, I have talked about a myriad of things the last couple days, from Dawson Knox the The Dolphins and Eagles game. Maybe don't worry so much about what I post about? Done with this conversation. Put me on mute/ignore if you must.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

How do you grow as an offense when the main player in the offense doesn't want to be a part of the natural play design. 

 

How do you know what the natural play design is and whether Allen is executing it or not? For example I see people criticize him for targeting Diggs on certain plays, but it is clearly built into the offense that in obvious man coverage situations his read is always Diggs first. I see people criticize him for not checking out of certain plays or not making the right read on an RPO, without knowing his checks or reads or even if the plays they're criticizing have those checks and reads built in.

 

I take the simple view of things. If Murray didn't unnecessarily commit OPI and Bass made a chip shot (for him) FG, we put up 32 points. That's without a true #2 WR and poor pass protection for much of the game. That's with Allen missing several throws that he usually hits. That's with the defense not getting off the field. That's with Knox dropping a simple 4th down catch.

 

So I guess I find it hard to believe that he's leading an offense putting up that kind of scoring production with so much going wrong around him, while also missing a bunch of reads and generally not performing well. I get that still frame all-22 review has become very trendy but I'd like to think we are smarter than that and can evaluate the offense based on what we know, not on what we think.

[Mango]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

How do you know what the natural play design is and whether Allen is executing it or not? For example I see people criticize him for targeting Diggs on certain plays, but it is clearly built into the offense that in obvious man coverage situations his read is always Diggs first. I see people criticize him for not checking out of certain plays or not making the right read on an RPO, without knowing his checks or reads or even if the plays they're criticizing have those checks and reads built in.

 

I take the simple view of things. If Murray didn't unnecessarily commit OPI and Bass made a chip shot (for him) FG, we put up 32 points. That's without a true #2 WR and poor pass protection for much of the game. That's with Allen missing several throws that he usually hits. That's with the defense not getting off the field. That's with Knox dropping a simple 4th down catch.

 

So I guess I find it hard to believe that he's leading an offense putting up that kind of scoring production with so much going wrong around him, while also missing a bunch of reads and generally not performing well. I get that still frame all-22 review has become very trendy but I'd like to think we are smarter than that and can evaluate the offense based on what we know, not on what we think.

The Knox drop on 4th was a killer too. 
 

I am critical of Allen at times but there is a ton going on at the moment. When it comes to mid season complaints, better QB play is the quick fix for a lot of (most?) things for most teams.

 

It’s tough because he has these moments and games Miami or the Raiders. But also the Jets. The delta between his highs and lows is remarkable. It’s easy to go “well he should stop being this version, and he should just be that other better version”.

 

We need upgrades at OT, WR, and execution. If we could throw out the plays that have 3 WR in a 5 yard radius that would be cool too.

[Shortchaz]

The offense is struggling for many reasons and when that happens we simplify and use the shorthand of saying the quarterback and or the offensive coordinator is the problem. 
 

I see it as a package deal, the oc and the qb, they go together. ultimately, whatever they’re doing isn’t working. That’s the issue…it’s not working. 
 

I tend to lay more blame on josh than others are comfortable with. I do this because he is the leader. As his compensation demonstrates, HE IS the boss on offense. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Shortchaz

[Dr.Sack]

I think Allen is playing up to his 2020 and beyond level. You really can't ask more of Allen outside of asking him to run the ball. 

 

 

[Billsflyer12]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/locked-on-bills-daily-podcast-on-the-buffalo-bills/id1145479962?i=1000632340805
 

Pretty knowledgeable and level headed Joe Marino had a lot of great observations from the All-22 here.  Josh being a mess was one of the biggest takeaways.

[ALLinALLEN]

I think we’re all very lucky they play Thursday night. Can’t sit on this feeling of no answers for much longer 

[RoscoeParrish]

Dorsey deserves the bulk of the blame. 
 

Not all of it. 

 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716619640414024151?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg

 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716606302338568314?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg
 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716551777388998713?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by RoscoeParrish
Update

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, Dick_Cheney said:

If I had to guess, I'd say it's an identity crisis and loss of confidence in coaches as well as the majority of the offense.

 

It's clear at this point that Josh's big play ability is being held back, and he's not the one choosing to do so. For whatever reason, he has decided not to rebel against whatever Dorsey and likely also McD have been trying to instill in him to be a more stereotypical pocket passer and to essentially neutralize the wild and explosive aspect of his running ability and his hero ball play. Yes, this actually has to some degree cut down on the mistakes that would come with that sort of play, but at this point it seems like a wash in that regard, all the while we no longer have any of the upside and the positives of Josh's usual style of play.

 

So we've absorbed all the negative aspects of changing his game, but haven't reaped any of the benefts. If the offense and the line were totally stacked then sure, we'd be a machine on offense. Instead we are predictable and teams no longer have to spy Josh, and honestly I don't think they fear him or go into each play anymore thinking "Oh *****, he might pull off something insane here." He's been neutered and they know it.

 

As for confidence in the rest of the offense, it's pretty bleak. Knox is anti-clutch. Diggs can't get the ball every time. We have no true #2 receiver. It was very encouraging having such a great game with Kincaid and I hope that mentally that gives Josh the confidence to basically turn him into the #2, but still. Having two guys on your offense that you actually trust isn't enough and that is painfully obvious.

 

Josh will always make some mistakes, but I cannot blame him too much at the moment considering what he's been told to do and the cast of characters he is having to do it with.

well maybe

 What has actually occurred is that Defense Coordinators have figured out the Offense,

 

and the Offense has no retort.

 Its really that simple

[BillsUberAlles]

Allen seems like he is afraid to even consider running now. 

 

I have to think that's coaching and that it's been drilled into him starting last off-season.

 

They got what they wanted. They aren't liking the results. Turning him into Herbert isn't working out as well as they thought.

[Franco_92]

Every person you could possibly associate with the franchise gets blamed an average of 15 times per each loss we have. Plenty of people have rightly criticized Josh's contributions to the loss yesterday. Why do we always talk in these incorrect absolutes?

[Aussie Joe]

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

[Your Brown Eye]

Those are fighting words on Chippewa

[Warcodered]

Because people don't know how to use the search function at the top of the site.

[RoscoeParrish]

5 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

99% of our fan base blames our inept offense solely on a coaching and personnel problem. Am I wrong? 

Edited October 24, 2023 by RoscoeParrish

[Billever76]

Why doesn't McDermott get any blame until just NOW? I mean I look at it the opposite...McDermott has reaped massive praise and credit that has almost all been dependent on josh allen and stefon Diggs.....we honestly have a middling average at best hc and staff with a superstar generational quarterback and wr

Edited October 24, 2023 by Billever76

[Success]

3 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

 

LOL

 

JA is to Wright what Lebron is to Skip.  Dude is obsessed.

 

[3rdand12]

Just now, BillsUberAlles said:

Allen seems like he is afraid to even consider running now. 

 

I have to think that's coaching and that it's been drilled into him starting last off-season.

 

They got what they wanted. They aren't liking the results. Turning him into Herbert isn't working out as well as they thought.

The offense needed to grow. Build the running game. use TEs. Screens sweeps checkdowns quick hits.

 RB out of the backfield.

 

Stop with the shotgun and five wide bs. Not sustainable for Allen's health.

Just because they messed it doesnt mean the concept was wrong.

Allen still can dump the ball off short for some reason. we all see the open guys while Josh pats the ball waiting

poor kids a mess by now

 

do away with that damned shotgun ! and the shotgun draw

we saw dorsey go back to it late in the game last sunday.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

Pink Floyd ?

[Aussie Joe]

3 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

99% of our fan base blames our inept offense solely on a coaching problem. Am I wrong? 

I’ll say that there is a lot of excuse making made for Josh, by a significant part of the fan base 

[Charles Romes]

He’s 6’5, has one of the strongest arms in the history of the game, and his ability to sense where the pressure is coming from is almost unparalleled. If the OC can’t find a way to take advantage of these gifts even when Allen plays average, yes it is all the OCs fault. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Charles Romes

[HurlyBurly51]

I know some TBD posters who are salivating at seeing this thread title and who should be here in 3, 2, 1......

[Goin Breakdown]

14 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

That guy must be loving this. I just picture him rolling in josh Allen memes right now like you'd see someone rolling in cash. 

[Airseven]

Allen represents hope and hype for starving Bills fans. Once you undercut him, there’s nothing left to add juice to the tailgate parties. He must be protected.

[Aussie Joe]

4 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

That guy must be loving this. I just picture him rolling in josh Allen memes right now like you'd see someone rolling in cash. 

I can’t watch his dick nose anymore .. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Maybe we should trade Josh to Chicago for the first 2 picks and Justin Fields -problem solved offense will sizzle

[Chaos]

Josh gets far more blame than he deserves. He is still the entire reason the Bills are competitive at all. 

[Mikie2times]

33 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

How do you know what the natural play design is and whether Allen is executing it or not? For example I see people criticize him for targeting Diggs on certain plays, but it is clearly built into the offense that in obvious man coverage situations his read is always Diggs first. I see people criticize him for not checking out of certain plays or not making the right read on an RPO, without knowing his checks or reads or even if the plays they're criticizing have those checks and reads built in.

 

I take the simple view of things. If Murray didn't unnecessarily commit OPI and Bass made a chip shot (for him) FG, we put up 32 points. That's without a true #2 WR and poor pass protection for much of the game. That's with Allen missing several throws that he usually hits. That's with the defense not getting off the field. That's with Knox dropping a simple 4th down catch.

 

So I guess I find it hard to believe that he's leading an offense putting up that kind of scoring production with so much going wrong around him, while also missing a bunch of reads and generally not performing well. I get that still frame all-22 review has become very trendy but I'd like to think we are smarter than that and can evaluate the offense based on what we know, not on what we think.

Once he breaks out of the normal drop cadence, that's when I feel like he is going outside of the play. Which is often. He creates his own pressure by not being on time with his throws. Anything past that point is him outside of the play. I also think he's playing rather well this year. He's doing a better job trying to play within the offense. As he is doing this people are clamoring for him to run and loosen up as they see we aren't as productive with Josh trying to stay within a system. Which sort leads to my point. I'm sure OC's love Josh saving them. Plays break down, he has it. No play is ever dead with him. But if I'm an elite coach I want a guy that can execute the same way every time. I want YAC, rhythm, consistency, and growth. Not broken play bail outs.  He's still the only thing saving us from complete meltdown. So ya, as much as I say that isn't flattering it's all in the lens of him being considerate an MVP candidate. Not compared to Mac Jones.  

[Low Positive]

There are currently 4 threads on the TBD front page blaming Josh Allen. 

[Mister Defense]

Dorsey has created an extremely dysfunctional offense, one in which players have lost confidence, clearly, and Josh is just trying to salvage games and overcome the now multi dimensional  and huge obstacles Dorsey has placed in front of the offense, again and again.

 

While there have been games, and parts of games, where the offense has looked excellent, he is now well into year 2 of his tenure here and he is clearly undermining almost all aspects of this offense now.

 

Unless there are dramatic changes soon, and the changes keep progressing, as the on field leader of the team Allen will continue to try to overcome the mess that he did not create.

[78thealltimegreat]

6 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

 

When you look at all 22 he is missing open guys all over and seems to be keying in on one guy in the route the entire time.  

 

The turnovers at the end of last year amd jets game were bad.  Like he didn't see the defenders.  

 

What are chances he's locking in on one guy because he isn't trusting what he's seeing now.   

 

 

The offense in the second against the Pats

TD

Knox drop on 4th down

TD

TD

 

These type of posts are why I chuckle at this board sometimes when Josh freaking Allen is the problem with this team.
This actually reminds me after his game against Pittsburgh in 2021 when people threw his jersey on the highway after this game. 
This fanbase treated Jeff Tuel and Kyle Orton better than they treat this guy. 

50 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/locked-on-bills-daily-podcast-on-the-buffalo-bills/id1145479962?i=1000632340805
 

Pretty knowledgeable and level headed Joe Marino had a lot of great observations from the All-22 here.  Josh being a mess was one of the biggest takeaways.

Joe Marino longs for the days when we where trying to get Kyle Orton out of retirement he often blames Josh for just about everything wrong with this franchise 

[78thealltimegreat]

The last 7 drives yesterday where  

FG
Bass missed Field Goal

TD

Knox Drop on 4th down

TD 

TD

Josh Allen’s biggest problem is he can’t rush the passer and make Mac Freaking Jones look like Joe Montana 

 

[zow2]

Did anyone see that stat on ESPN today, where Allen was 10 for 22 yesterday with 2.5 seconds or more throwing time.  And with less than 2.5 seconds to throw he was 17 for 17.  

Not sure if there’s a thread about it.  There has to be something to this.  Obviously when he has no time to think he is going on quick instinct.  when Josh has time to think, he chucks too many downfield into coverage instead of taking the easy play. He’s a mustang and you can’t tame him,  says Von Miller!

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

The last 7 drives yesterday where  

FG
Bass missed Field Goal

TD

Knox Drop on 4th down

TD 

TD

Josh Allen’s biggest problem is he can’t rush the passer and make Mac Freaking Jones look like Joe Montana 

 

All true, but the problem is that the offense hasn’t been working until we’re behind. The Bills just need to play with that urgency from the opening drive.

[Roundybout]

5 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Did anyone see that stat on ESPN today, where Allen was 10 for 22 yesterday with 2.5 seconds or more throwing time.  And with less than 2.5 seconds to throw he was 17 for 17.  

Not sure if there’s a thread about it.  There has to be something to this.  Obviously when he has no time to think he is going on quick instinct.  when Josh has time to think, he chucks too many downfield into coverage instead of taking the easy play. He’s a mustang and you can’t tame him,  says Von Miller!

Makes sense when he’s scrambling and everybody is covered 

[Billsflyer12]

30 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

The offense in the second against the Pats

TD

Knox drop on 4th down

TD

TD

 

These type of posts are why I chuckle at this board sometimes when Josh freaking Allen is the problem with this team.
This actually reminds me after his game against Pittsburgh in 2021 when people threw his jersey on the highway after this game. 
This fanbase treated Jeff Tuel and Kyle Orton better than they treat this guy. 

Joe Marino longs for the days when we where trying to get Kyle Orton out of retirement he often blames Josh for just about everything wrong with this franchise 

This fan base literally funded a whole wing of a f**king of hospital for Josh, GMAFB about how he is treated.

 

You can both appreciative of Josh and also criticize when warranted.  If not your just a fanboy.  Grow up.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, RoscoeParrish said:

Dorsey deserves the bulk of the blame. 
 

Not all of it. 

 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716619640414024151?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg

 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716606302338568314?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg
 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716551777388998713?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg

 

 

this is exactly what I saw in a review of 18 plays from the game. All 22 makes it even worse. Lots of open guys missed or not even thrown to. 
 

Cover 1 is spot on. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, RoscoeParrish said:

99% of our fan base blames our inept offense solely on a coaching and personnel problem. Am I wrong? 

You’re right, most just don’t understand football at all and who is responsible for what, some form these visceral religious beliefs in some players that make them unflappable in their minds. 
 

it was similar with Doug Flutie who was a terrible QB but some fans upheld he could do no wrong no matter how stupid of a play he made. 

[balln]

Allen is not seeing the field. Plain and simple. He’s looking deep when he should be looking short. He’s looking at diggs and diggs and diggs and knox when he should be looking at Kincaid and shakir. It’s maddening. 
 

and he’s just. Inaccurate. Sorry. Compared to Kirk , mahommes , tua , purdy, burrow, his balls even completions are always a little off