Frazier Permanently Gone?

[machine gun kelly]

8 hours ago, The Wiz said:

 

 

 

One of the ultimate man’s

movies in Tombstone.

[T master]

I kind of wonder if there wasn't a difference of opinion as to how aggressive McD would have liked the D to be say like in the 13 second game and possibly some others . Maybe the bend not break type of scheme was more Frazier than McD although statistically that scheme was good in crunch time not so much .

 

This year could be very telling to see just how the Bills HC implements the defensive scheme and what changes will be made from Frazier's .

Edited May 18, 2023 by T master

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, T master said:

I kind of wonder if there wasn't a difference of opinion as to how aggressive McD would have liked the D to be say like in the 13 second game and possibly some others . Maybe the bend not break type of scheme was more Frazier than McD although statistically that scheme was good in crunch time not so much .

 

This year could be very telling to see just how the Bills HC implements the defensive scheme and what changes will be made from Frazier's .

 

Sean is, from what we evidence we have in Philly and Carolina, a more aggressive play caller, but scheme wise expect the Bills to still be a bend but not break scheme that tries to limit big plays and keep the game in front of them. That's how McD's defenses succeeded as well. You may see him bring more pressure in certain situations where Leslie would be inclined to play coverage but there will be a lot of simulate pressure and drop out as there was in Frazier's defense. 

[Matt_In_NH]

This is what I assumed since it was announced

[nucci]

Shocking.

[BuffaloBillyG]

32 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sean is, from what we evidence we have in Philly and Carolina, a more aggressive play caller, but scheme wise expect the Bills to still be a bend but not break scheme that tries to limit big plays and keep the game in front of them. That's how McD's defenses succeeded as well. You may see him bring more pressure in certain situations where Leslie would be inclined to play coverage but there will be a lot of simulate pressure and drop out as there was in Frazier's defense. 

I'd like to add that while most fans hate this term, it's what most successful modern defenses do in this era. There are some exceptions, sure. But with the way the rules are set up to protect the QB and always tipped in favor of the passing game on offense you can't be too aggressive too many times and risk tossing in penalty yards and free first downs on top of the already slanted rules. 

 

These days you almost have to play passive and pick a spot here or there to surprise an offense with a bit of uptempo defense to cause a negative play. Sean has the reputation of having an excellent feel for when to turn that dial up.

Edited May 18, 2023 by BuffaloBillyG

[WIDE LEFT]

It is as clear as a bell that McD informed Frazier that he (McD) would call the defenses in 2023 season. Given this, Frazier had to leave the Bills. At this point in his career, Frazier cannot accept being a DC stripped of play calling responsibilities. Among other problems, it would kill any chance of gettting a HC job

[Warriorspikes51]

10 hours ago, Einstein said:

I wonder if there was 1 year left on his contract and the team offered to pay him to take the year off.

 

Either way, there was no coming back from this.

 

They brought pressure on this play too. How do you not play press man there?

[Gregg]

He should have been out after 13 seconds. I still can't believe the Bills didn't win that game. 30 seconds sure as there is enough time to get into FG range especially with timeouts. But 13 come on.

[SoCal Deek]

He’s gone. It happens in every business. At first it sounds like a short leave of absence but after a full year the team will have moved on and bringing him back would look and feel like a desperation move (even if it isn’t…which it would be)

[Mr. WEO]

what is the "coach accelerator program"?

[BobbyC81]

43 minutes ago, Gregg said:

He should have been out after 13 seconds. I still can't believe the Bills didn't win that game. 30 seconds sure as there is enough time to get into FG range especially with timeouts. But 13 come on.

And they called timeout before each of the last 2 plays.

[GerstAusGosheim]

The big story everyone is missing is that Sean waited until there were no DC jobs left to fire him. That's really messed up.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

They brought pressure on this play too. How do you not play press man there?

 

I agree.

 

And the Bills seem to agree as well, since the next time that situation happened, they switched to press man. Video below.

 

I just wonder if it was Frazier who realized it and fixed it, or it McD told him not to ever do that again.

 

 

[co_springs_billsfan]

1 hour ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

They brought pressure on this play too. How do you not play press man there?

I was screaming at my TV live when this happened,  and even moreso after they sent pressure 

[SoCal Deek]

21 minutes ago, GerstAusGosheim said:

The big story everyone is missing is that Sean waited until there were no DC jobs left to fire him. That's really messed up.

I’m not sure that’s the correct takeaway. I’m confident the Bills were allowing other teams to talk with Frazier. The question is did anyone call. I’m guessing not. 

[Franco_92]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

At midfield, yes. Not at the 7 yard line. There is not much room for the defender to even run past the DB in this part of the field (unless it’s a pylon throw or slot middle). 

 

The right call is to play press man and force Burrow to hold onto the ball a second longer. The play call they chose, gift wrapped a first down for Cinci. 

 

And the Bills agree with me. How do I know?

 

Well, not much later in the game, the Bills defense were in almost exactly the same position. This time it was 3rd and 5 instead of 3rd and 4. And it was also in the red zone.

 

In almost the exact same situation, the Bills played cover 0 again (or maybe it was cover 1?), but this time with press man. Any guesses as to what happened?

 

Burrow had to hold the ball longer, waiting for his receivers to get separation. In doing so, he got hit by Ed Oliver, and barely was able to throw the ball away.

 

 

The bills have never called cover 0 with press man in the snow lol. They were in a different coverage then. The picture I quoted insinuates that the CBs need to be in press on that play call. That is ######ed - if they are in cover 0 with press in the snow, instead of barely getting the first down (which they wouldn't have gotten had white been better about tackling even with the cushion) burrow would have had one of three wide open WRs for a touchdown and could have picked whichever he would have liked to throw to, like you would pick your favorite cantaloupe at the store. 

 

I agree that press man coverage would have been best there, but not with cover 0, because cover 0 is TOO AGGRESSIVE for the circumstance. Cover 2 press man on the outside with that 3 man rush and delayed Milano blitz would have been my call. 

If you can get a screen shot of that next play you mention that shows 7 blitzers I will believe you. But I have literally never seen what people were asking for from that play 

Edited May 18, 2023 by arcane

[Ralonzo]

11 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Try taking a year off of your job and see if its waiting for you when you get back.

 

Try messing up your job like 13 seconds and see if your badge works the next morning.

[Franco_92]

I would simply never call cover 0 against a QB I consider a top 10 QB

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

53 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

what is the "coach accelerator program"?

Most Bills fans don't need a stop at the end of the rails...🤔

*
I am disappointed that nobody has opined:

"Frazier has left the building!"

[PrimeTime101]

some are in the land of delusional if they thought for longer than 30 seconds, that he would be coming back.. 

[LABILLBACKER]

13 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Case closed gentlemen!

 

Cant get any clearer evidence then  this .

 

 

 

 

Good!

[TampaBillsJunkie]

13 hours ago, Chaos said:

If he gets a head coaching job now, do the Bills get comp picks? 

They go to New England.

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sean is, from what we evidence we have in Philly and Carolina, a more aggressive play caller, but scheme wise expect the Bills to still be a bend but not break scheme that tries to limit big plays and keep the game in front of them. That's how McD's defenses succeeded as well. You may see him bring more pressure in certain situations where Leslie would be inclined to play coverage but there will be a lot of simulate pressure and drop out as there was in Frazier's defense. 

 

Agreed.  McD brought Frazier onboard as his DC because they were aligned schematically.  McD knew what scheme he wanted to execute and chose a DC who was philosophically supportive.  Based on their defenisive rankings over the past few years, it was a good marriage.  But, as I recall, when McD took over the play-calling a few years back, he called a more aggressive game.   I've got to imagine that's where the dissatification lies - in the playcalling.  

 

Over the years, I recall both players and coaches praising Frazier's gameweek preparations.  I don't recall much praise for his gameday playcalling.  Sometimes what people don't say is telling.

 

 

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

They brought pressure on this play too. How do you not play press man there?

Agreed. Football 101 mistake. Fireable offense right there and I started to say that presnap when I saw the alignment. Defending the Bengals was going to be a heavy lift, but the coaches took what chance we had away. 

[Franco_92]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

I agree.

 

And the Bills seem to agree as well, since the next time that situation happened, they switched to press man. Video below.

 

I just wonder if it was Frazier who realized it and fixed it, or it McD told him not to ever do that again.

 

 

This is press because they're on the goal line lol. On the other play they had the yardage to give the standard cushion every team gives on cover 0

Zero is just a bad play call against joe burrow, or allen, mahomes, Rodgers etc

All defensive plays on the goal line look like zero with press coverage because the field ends! They have the "goal line package" there

[Franco_92]

The purpose of cover zero is to get to the qb in situations where he isn't releasing the ball in half of a second, and don't let anyone behind you in case the qb avoids the pressure long enough. It's a long yardage boom or bust call (miami used it on 3rd and 15 on the Diggs deep shot in the wild card game). When a qb like burrow needs 2 yards, you don't call "zero but play tighter", that is r*tarded. You call something else entirely 

[TheBrownBear]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Leslie is not coming back. He chose to walk away from the final year of his Bills contract, take a year off and then he will take what presumably will be his last NFL job. I suspect that will be as a DC on a team with a new first time offensive minded head coach. And you know what? He will have a good defense. Because Leslie Frazier is a good football coach. 

Thanks, Bill.  I know the past couple of seasons didn't end the way we all hoped, but just reading these comments you'd think Frazier had been stewarding the #32 ranked defense in the league the past few seasons instead of the top 3 defense that we were.  And he did all that without any fearsome pass rushers (minus a handful of games with Von), numerous major injuries and a MLB with fairly mediocre instincts.

 

As a fan, I am ready for a change as well in the hope that it might get us over the hump, but I also acknowledge that the defense could likely get worse in Frazier's absence.  I'm old enough to remember how excited many of us were to see the conservative Ted Cottrell replaced by Greg Williams/Jerry Gray at the time.

[hondo in seattle]

7 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Thanks, Bill.  I know the past couple of seasons didn't end the way we all hoped, but just reading these comments you'd think Frazier had been stewarding the #32 ranked defense in the league the past few seasons instead of the top 3 defense that we were.  And he did all that without any fearsome pass rushers (minus a handful of games with Von), numerous major injuries and a MLB with fairly mediocre instincts.

 

As a fan, I am ready for a change as well in the hope that it might get us over the hump, but I also acknowledge that the defense could likely get worse in Frazier's absence.  I'm old enough to remember how excited many of us were to see the conservative Ted Cottrell replaced by Greg Williams/Jerry Gray at the time.

 

I wish we had a better peak behind the curtain and knew more precisely what Frazier contributed.  I also acknowledge the possibility we might miss him.

 

But I'm not convinced we will.   This has always been McD's defense.  Schematically it's not going to change.  The way we run our offseason, do film study, hold position meetings, gameplan - all that stuff will remain the same.  I'm guessing Eric Washington, who's been a DC before, will mostly organize all that now instead of Frazier.  But it'll be the same routine based on the same defensive philosophy.  And on game day, McD will call the plays instead of Frazier. 

 

As a fan with limited insight into the behind-the-scenes operations of the team, it doesn't seem like there ought to be a drop-off.  In fact, with McD calling plays, we should see improvement.  

[Beast]

Did anyone really believe he was coming back? 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Beast

[Homey D. Clown]

When your defensive play calling lets a team march down the field unabated in 13 seconds, I was surprised he was around in september of 2022.  

[C.Biscuit97]

Finally, we can have a real DC who can lead us past our terrible rankings of the last two seasons of, checking notes, #2 and #1!!!!

[Gregg]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Finally, we can have a real DC who can lead us past our terrible rankings of the last two seasons of, checking notes, #2 and #1!!!!

 

Those rankings meant nothing. The Bills defense was a paper tiger who padded their stats against bad QB's and bad offenses overall. They got exposed against good teams with good QB's. The games that hurt the most were 13 seconds and the Bengals playoff game.

[colin]

what's with the frazier ball washing here?  the bills dump tons of resources into the D, so of course they are going to have an at least good D.  it's not like he took 11 UDFA and made them world beaters.  Generally good regular season rankings coupled with horrible lapses to end the past 3 seasons while our O has been en fuego w allen means he's just not good enough, and that's why he got thrown out the door.

 

he gets the guys (very well paid highly drafted guys, no less) well prepared to play on game day, but never adjusts and is predictable.  

[Einstein]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

 

 

I agree that press man coverage would have been best there, but not with cover 0, because cover 0 is TOO AGGRESSIVE for the circumstance.

 

You're arguing semantics. With the way the Bills play cover 1, it mimics a cover 0 as they bring the safety right into the box.

I posted a video of a play later in the game where they played almost the exact same coverage. Difference being that they had a shallow safety. Fundamentally, there was no difference other than press man, as the shallow safety wouldn't have been able to be a safety outlet for all 4 receivers anyway.

 

You can run cover 0 in the snow with press man near the goal line, because there isnt tons of field behind you to cover. The field is shrunk and and nd the QB has to get rid of the ball quick.

 

.

3 hours ago, arcane said:

This is press because they're on the goal line lol.

 

The difference between the 3rd and 4 play and the play you just quoted, is 2 yards.

 

Two.

 

One was at the 7 yard line, the other at the 5 yard line.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Einstein

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, WIDE LEFT said:

It is as clear as a bell that McD informed Frazier that he (McD) would call the defenses in 2023 season. Given this, Frazier had to leave the Bills. At this point in his career, Frazier cannot accept being a DC stripped of play calling responsibilities. Among other problems, it would kill any chance of gettting a HC job

On no planet was Leslie Frazier ever getting another HC chance. Not after 13 seconds and the Cincy game. He might land somewhere as a DC but he'll never win a high leverage playoff game with his style. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

Did anyone really believe he was coming back? 

I can’t imagine anyone did no. I suppose this development is just confirmation.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I wish we had a better peak behind the curtain and knew more precisely what Frazier contributed.  I also acknowledge the possibility we might miss him.

 

But I'm not convinced we will.   This has always been McD's defense.  Schematically it's not going to change.  The way we run our offseason, do film study, hold position meetings, gameplan - all that stuff will remain the same.  I'm guessing Eric Washington, who's been a DC before, will mostly organize all that now instead of Frazier.  But it'll be the same routine based on the same defensive philosophy.  And on game day, McD will call the plays instead of Frazier. 

 

As a fan with limited insight into the behind-the-scenes operations of the team, it doesn't seem like there ought to be a drop-off.  In fact, with McD calling plays, we should see improvement.  

This will still be a top 10 defense without Frazier.  We have to assume players like Von, Tre & Poyer will be at least 90% to start the season. And by virtue of McD likely to be more aggressive,  we should see more blitzes and press coverage.  Where we should see the improvements will be in the playoffs where Leslie simply crawled into a conservative soft formation.  Sean won't do that.

[benderbender]

The question of ownership of the defense was the first crack in the wall. Why couldn't they just say it was Frazier's and move on? 

 

Just like Edmunds, the true worth of Frazier will be based on this season without them. But if Frazier is gone, it was brutal. 13 seconds kept him from getting the Bears HC job, then Cinci kicked his remaining prospects while they were down. Coming back would have AFCCG or bust level expectations and who needs that at 64?

[hondo in seattle]

48 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Those rankings meant nothing. The Bills defense was a paper tiger who padded their stats against bad QB's and bad offenses overall. They got exposed against good teams with good QB's. The games that hurt the most were 13 seconds and the Bengals playoff game.

 

I partially disagree.  The Bills D was not a paper tiger.  It was a good defense that offenses often struggled against.  It did seem to have problems, though, with highly efficient passing, and power-running, attacks.