GOAT debate related to era Montana vs Brady

[Billl]

11 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

Thank you Bill, quality post. I think this is about as close as we can get to fairly comparing eras. I still wonder how TB would fair with different rules in place. But it's all fun hypothetical. About as close as we can get is performance relative to other players.  

That’s an interesting point you bring up about wondering how Brady would fare in different eras and with different rules.  The reality is that he’s been in the league for 23 seasons, so you don’t really have to wonder.  He’s played in multiple eras with all kinds of different rules, and he’s dominated all of them.  He’s won in ball control offenses.  He’s won in wide open offenses.  He’s won in offenses featuring multiple TEs.  He’s won while making countless little white slot receivers look like world beaters.  I feel pretty confident that he’d manage to win throwing to Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, etc. while Bill Walsh was calling the plays.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Billl

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Billl said:

That’s an interesting point you bring up about wondering how Brady would fare in different eras and with different rules.  The reality is that he’s been in the league for 23 seasons, so you don’t really have to wonder.  He’s played in multiple eras with all kinds of different rules, and he’s dominated all of them.  He’s won in ball control offenses.  He’s won in wide open offenses.  He’s won in offenses featuring multiple TEs.  He’s won while making countless little white slot receivers look like world beaters.  I feel pretty confident that he’d manage to win throwing to Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, etc. while Bill Walsh was calling the plays.

Yes and more importantly throwing against simple defenses w worse players than he's already dominated

 

I have no idea how Bills fans in particular can argue against Brady. The guy is just a killer. Perfect combination of arm/brain/work ethic plus the uncontrollable desire to absolutely rip your heart out. Absolute psychopath clearly the best NFL player of all time and second place isn't close imo

[Mikie2times]

47 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't agree with this way of looking at it.  Montana's coach had nothing to do with the pin point dimes Montana threw on a regular basis.  

 

Here is how I would look at it...what if Brady and Montana switched places?  If Brady played during Montanas era where QB's got regularly smashed, what would his career look like?  I mean we saw him lose to a mediocre Giants team twice in the SB just because the Giants actually got to Brady.  What about Montana?  What would his career look like playing in an era where you can't touch the WR's and can't touch the QB's?  How much longer would Montana play if he was getting concussed from massive hits that would be illegal today?

 

Personally, I think there is no chance Brady replicates his success or longevity playing during Montana's era.  Don't get me wrong, not saying Brady couldn't have still had a great career, but he doesn't get as many rings as he did and he sure as heck doesn't play as long as he did.  And when I look at Montana, if I plug him into the NE offense during the Brady era, I honestly can say that he still wins as many as he did, probably as many as Brady, maybe even more.  

 

There is no such thing as truly swapping them, therefore, Brady's accomplishments are unmatched and has absolutely earned the GOAT title.  But, I don't necessairly know that he was actually a better QB than Montana, or vice versa.  I mean Montana won 4 Super Bowls by 36 in SF.  He would have won at least 5 or 6 if not for the back issues that led them to change to Steve Young (who won 1 and should have won 2).  He went to KC and took over an offense that does not have a single good player on it and took them to the AFCCG and 2 straight playoff trips before he retired at age 38.  

 

I think its fair to argue that had Montana got to stay with the Niners and play well into his 40's, he likely gets 7, maybe more rings.  But his body didn't allow for that thanks to the substantially more physical era he played compared to Brady.  

 

 

 

Pats lost more than Brady when he left.  Not sure why you are ignoring that fact.  And the Niners were taken over by a HOF QB.  So your argument is that a HOF QB made the pats better but you ignore the fact that the Niners had Steve Young take over, another HOF QB.  And Montana went to KC...go google the roster of KC that year, I 100% gurantee you have never heard of any of the guys on that offense because they were not good...and Montana took them to the AFCCG and playoffs both years there despite playing with a bad back and no talent around him at the end of his career. 

I look at it very similar. Brady was a cerebral QB, accurate, not the strongest arm, not athletic. If he swapped places with Joe, I don't know how he goes on and does what he did in this era. As one poster mentioned, the nutrition and training was worse. The risk for injury based on the style of play and medicine was higher. Defenses could hold for 5 yards with impunity, how much does that mess with how he plays? All of this equals a situation in my mind where Brady would probably have a very similar trajectory as Montana did, which is just about the best you could do at that time. As far as switching out Montana for Brady, I guess it's also hard for me to see Montana doing what Brady did as it would be hard to consider any player doing such a thing. So I guess in a way, I think both players did about as well as you could do in the eras they had. I also think it's very debatable as far as how well each could do in the eras they did not have. 

 

 

[papazoid]

i lean Montana based on passer rating

 

Super Bowl Marks:
Championships — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 4
Most Valuable Player Awards — Tom Brady: 4 | Joe Montana: 3
Record — Tom Brady: 5-2 | Joe Montana: 4-0
Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 15 | Joe Montana: 11
Interceptions — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 0
Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 67.0 | Joe Montana: 68.0
Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 2,071 | Joe Montana: 1,142
Completions — Tom Brady: 207 | Joe Montana: 83
Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 95.3 | Joe Montana: 127.8
Margin of Victory in Super Bowl Wins — Tom Brady: +19 | Joe Montana: +76
 
Career Postseason Marks:
Record — Tom Brady: 25-9 | Joe Montana: 16-7
Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 63 | Joe Montana: 45
Interceptions — Tom Brady: 31 | Joe Montana: 21
Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 62.7 | Joe Montana: 62.7
Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 9,094 | Joe Montana: 5,772
Completions — Tom Brady: 831 | Joe Montana: 460
Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 89.0 | Joe Montana: 95.6
Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 10 | Joe Montana: 5

[Mikie2times]

14 minutes ago, Billl said:

That’s an interesting point you bring up about wondering how Brady would fare in different eras and with different rules.  The reality is that he’s been in the league for 23 seasons, so you don’t really have to wonder.  He’s played in multiple eras with all kinds of different rules, and he’s dominated all of them.  He’s won in ball control offenses.  He’s won in wide open offenses.  He’s won in offenses featuring multiple TEs.  He’s won while making countless little white slot receivers look like world beaters.  I feel pretty confident that he’d manage to win throwing to Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, etc. while Bill Walsh was calling the plays.

Most of Brady's career, for practical purposes, was played by the same general rules. QB's were starting to get protected in the early 2000's when he was breaking out. I mean his knee injury created an entire rule for gods sake. Medicine and nutrition and made major advances. Most important, defensive holding rules changed in 2004. Most his major breakout years passing were post 2004. He has good years prior, but the gaudy ones happened after, as they did for many QB's. I think that change is perhaps as big as any (hitting the QB, medicine, nutrition, etc) 

[Mikie2times]

https://www.si.com/nfl/49ers/.amp/news/was-san-francisco-49ers-quarterback-joe-montana-better-than-tom-brady
 

Decent article. Focused on the era. Lot has been said already here. 

[MJS]

Well, if you look at anything (wins, championships, passing statistics, playoff appearances, longevity, big moments, etc), Tom Brady outshines Joe Montana. The only leg Montana has to stand on is the earlier era of rougher treatment for QB's, and there really isn't any way to know how Brady would have fared then, or how Montana would have fared in later eras.

 

So, it is basically up to subjective opinion when considering the era. Nobody really knows.

 

It's Tom Brady, in my opinion. I don't like him, mainly due to his countless temper tantrums on the sidelines, his cheating scandals with the Pats, and because he played for a division rival, but I think it is clear he is the GOAT.

 

Until, of course, Josh Allen takes that title in 20 years.

[unbillievable]

Montana won 3 superbowls.

 

I'll give Brady credit for 1 non * win.

 

He's hands down the greatest cheater of all time.

[thenorthremembers]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't agree with this way of looking at it.  Montana's coach had nothing to do with the pin point dimes Montana threw on a regular basis.  

 

Here is how I would look at it...what if Brady and Montana switched places?  If Brady played during Montanas era where QB's got regularly smashed, what would his career look like?  I mean we saw him lose to a mediocre Giants team twice in the SB just because the Giants actually got to Brady.  What about Montana?  What would his career look like playing in an era where you can't touch the WR's and can't touch the QB's?  How much longer would Montana play if he was getting concussed from massive hits that would be illegal today?

 

Personally, I think there is no chance Brady replicates his success or longevity playing during Montana's era.  Don't get me wrong, not saying Brady couldn't have still had a great career, but he doesn't get as many rings as he did and he sure as heck doesn't play as long as he did.  And when I look at Montana, if I plug him into the NE offense during the Brady era, I honestly can say that he still wins as many as he did, probably as many as Brady, maybe even more.  

 

There is no such thing as truly swapping them, therefore, Brady's accomplishments are unmatched and has absolutely earned the GOAT title.  But, I don't necessairly know that he was actually a better QB than Montana, or vice versa.  I mean Montana won 4 Super Bowls by 36 in SF.  He would have won at least 5 or 6 if not for the back issues that led them to change to Steve Young (who won 1 and should have won 2).  He went to KC and took over an offense that does not have a single good player on it and took them to the AFCCG and 2 straight playoff trips before he retired at age 38.  

 

I think its fair to argue that had Montana got to stay with the Niners and play well into his 40's, he likely gets 7, maybe more rings.  But his body didn't allow for that thanks to the substantially more physical era he played compared to Brady.  

 

 

 

Pats lost more than Brady when he left.  Not sure why you are ignoring that fact.  And the Niners were taken over by a HOF QB.  So your argument is that a HOF QB made the pats better but you ignore the fact that the Niners had Steve Young take over, another HOF QB.  And Montana went to KC...go google the roster of KC that year, I 100% gurantee you have never heard of any of the guys on that offense because they were not good...and Montana took them to the AFCCG and playoffs both years there despite playing with a bad back and no talent around him at the end of his career. 

You seem to be conveniently forgetting a few things about the discussion.   First, Brady didnt play his whole career in the era where Qbs were protected.  He was well into his career before that changed.   Secondly, Brady is a bigger athlete.  He has 2 inches and 20 pounds on Montana.   The 20 extra pounds goes a long way into the longevity you're talking about.   

 

A few points you made just dont pass the smell test

 

Chiefs Roster-  While the Chiefs didnt have Jerry Rice.   Montana had Marcus Allen (Hall of Fame) and Willie Davis with the Chiefs.  Not to mention a bevy of decent running backs like Harvey Williams and Todd McNair.   Montana wasnt airing it out by that stage of his career

 

Chiefs AFCG Appearance-  I would argue Montana was a game manager by the time he made it to the Chiefs.   They made it to the AFCG that year by playing "Marty Ball"  they ran the ball extremely well and had a couple monsters on defense Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas.    You bringing up this point and then highlighting Steve Young makes my exact point about the Walsh/Seifert 49ers offense.   What QB has succeeded in the Belichick/McDaniels offense like Brady?  Certainly not another Hall of Famer in the Lot. 

 

I still think you're going a long ways to make this argument.   Too many what if's and buts.   Montana was 38 when he retired, not a young pup by any means.  The point you're making about playing well into his 40's could be made about so many QB's not just Montana.  What if Manning didnt have the neck injury?  What if Dan Marino had played for the 49ers and not the Dolphins?  It could do on for days.  My God what if Brady had Rice, Taylor, and Roger Craig?

 

The bottom line is Brady has 7 rings, and was great over the longest period of time.  

[Matt_In_NH]

8 hours ago, Billl said:

You’re so close to getting it.  Playing with a historically great supporting cast makes QBs look even better.  Even with that roster, Montana was 16-7 all time in the postseason.  Brady is 35-13.  

 

Brady is the greatest football player in NFL history, and it’s not particularly close.  Denying that is akin to denying that Gretzky is the GOAT in hockey.

No one is disputing the volume of postseason success Brady has had vs Montana, what you listed are facts although I did not fact check them, they look correct.  The thing you have to consider is if Brady played in the 80's/90's he would have very likely had more injuries and missed more time and it is nearly impossible for him to play into his 40's.  If Montana did not have serious back injuries caused by rules that were then changed to prevent and protect a guy like Montana he would have had more volume too.  Had Montana played in the 2010's he would have had a longer career with less injuries, he easily could have approached what Brady has done in terms of post season.  For instance, Steve Young took over eventually but had Montana had the rules that Brady played under, they likely stick with Montana, do we really think Montana could not have won the SB that Young did?  So you have to adjust for those things (volume).  Montana won all 4 of his Super Bowl's he played in.  Montana had to lead his team to a game winning drive in two of them late in the fourth quarter.  Brady often had to get in field goal range.    To me, it is a reasonable debate.

[Sherlock Holmes]

8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I loved Montana growing up but he got to throw to Jerry Rice, maybe the greatest football player ever. Steve Young, when healthy, was arguably better than Montana in that system. They also were loaded teams because there was no cap. Look at the scrubs Brady was throwing go besides Gronk.  Winning the amount of SBs they did in a salary cap makes Brady blow Montana away. 

Of course if does. It’s like the current 49ers now. If you blindly look at Jimmy G’s stats and “wins,” he looks great. However, the fact that almost any qb can step in and be successful shows there is nothing special about him. If there was any drop off between Montana and Young, it makes Montana look better. But Young was ever better than him. 

Jimmy is in Vegas now...and Purdy ain't any QB, he is the next Brady but better.

[Matt_In_NH]

People love to say all the success in NE was solely accomplished because of Brady and Brady alone.  That is ludicrous, just ignore amount of leadership, roster building, in game decisions, defenses, offensive lines yada yada  it took to go to 9 SB's and win 6 of them that had nothing to do with Brady.   I hate the Patriots as much as the next guy but Belichick is a great coach, one of the greatest, Brady is a great QB, one of the greatest.  Having both of those pieces is why they had sustained success, yet people have to say it was one or the other.  I am aware Belichick has a sub 500 record without Brady, just like many of the other great NFL coaches do without their franchise QB.  

[Buffalo Junction]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't agree with this way of looking at it.  Montana's coach had nothing to do with the pin point dimes Montana threw on a regular basis.  

 

Here is how I would look at it...what if Brady and Montana switched places?  If Brady played during Montanas era where QB's got regularly smashed, what would his career look like?  I mean we saw him lose to a mediocre Giants team twice in the SB just because the Giants actually got to Brady.  What about Montana?  What would his career look like playing in an era where you can't touch the WR's and can't touch the QB's?  How much longer would Montana play if he was getting concussed from massive hits that would be illegal today?

 

Personally, I think there is no chance Brady replicates his success or longevity playing during Montana's era.  Don't get me wrong, not saying Brady couldn't have still had a great career, but he doesn't get as many rings as he did and he sure as heck doesn't play as long as he did.  And when I look at Montana, if I plug him into the NE offense during the Brady era, I honestly can say that he still wins as many as he did, probably as many as Brady, maybe even more.  

 

There is no such thing as truly swapping them, therefore, Brady's accomplishments are unmatched and has absolutely earned the GOAT title.  But, I don't necessairly know that he was actually a better QB than Montana, or vice versa.  I mean Montana won 4 Super Bowls by 36 in SF.  He would have won at least 5 or 6 if not for the back issues that led them to change to Steve Young (who won 1 and should have won 2).  He went to KC and took over an offense that does not have a single good player on it and took them to the AFCCG and 2 straight playoff trips before he retired at age 38.  

 

I think its fair to argue that had Montana got to stay with the Niners and play well into his 40's, he likely gets 7, maybe more rings.  But his body didn't allow for that thanks to the substantially more physical era he played compared to Brady.  

 

 

 

Pats lost more than Brady when he left.  Not sure why you are ignoring that fact.  And the Niners were taken over by a HOF QB.  So your argument is that a HOF QB made the pats better but you ignore the fact that the Niners had Steve Young take over, another HOF QB.  And Montana went to KC...go google the roster of KC that year, I 100% gurantee you have never heard of any of the guys on that offense because they were not good...and Montana took them to the AFCCG and playoffs both years there despite playing with a bad back and no talent around him at the end of his career. 

Regarding the last paragraph. People tend to forget that there was a massive amount of coaching turnover when Walsh left. Dennis Green left first, then Holmgren who took Sherman Lewis, Ray Rhodes, Jon Gruden, etc. Steve Young took over with the roster intact, but the prior offensive coaches were gone. Granted Holmgren was replaced with Mike Shanahan. 

 

None of the Brady to Montana stuff is apples to apples. Montana played in an era where dynasties were more prevalent, QBs could be brutalized, there was no FA, the USFL sniped top talent, speed could be neutralized with physicality, etc. The top of the league had a concentration of talent, and the moribund franchises couldn’t over pay for it (why I view Young’s time as a Buc a bad indicator of his talent).

[BillsPride12]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

re the NBA

 

Very few of those guys from the 80s could have played today. They weren't athletic enough, didn't train enough, and the physical defense everyone likes to reminisce about were just fouls if we're being honest.

I've always hated this argument.  If the guys from back then played today they would have trained and used the modern nutrition programs of today and would be just fine.  If anything I've always been amazed at how the athletes back then performed knowing how hard most of them lived off the field, court in those days. 

[RangerDave]

9 hours ago, Southern_Bills said:

It's Brady, I hate to say it. Maybe it was because of advances in sports medicine/nutrition and it helped him extend his prime. Can't fault him for that.

I think what helped Brady was his ability to avoid taking big hits, prolonging his career and avoiding injuries like Josh had last season that hurt his season.  He had a very quick release, played a short passing game, and threw the ball away when needed to avoid a hit.  This was all part of what made him great.  He also won with a lot of pedestrian receivers.

 

10 hours ago, Southern_Bills said:

I believe NE was going to fall off regardless if he stayed or went, but it happened how it happened. 

I think Brady saw this coming and wanted out before it did.  Then he chose a team with all the right components to win another championship.  This does not demean his accomplishments in any way.  He was just smart about where he played.

[HOUSE]

Tom Brady's rookie card is worth more then Joe Montana's on EBAY 

 

The debate is over

[Matt_In_NH]

4 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Tom Brady's rookie card is worth more then Joe Montana's on EBAY 

 

The debate is over

Ebay did not exist during Montana's career, this is irrelevent.

[HOUSE]

Tom Brady has more money

 

https://clutchpoints.com/tom-brady-net-worth

 

https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/news-joe-montana-net-worth-is-iconic-nfl-qb-broke-2023

[Billl]

7 hours ago, papazoid said:

i lean Montana based on passer rating

 

Super Bowl Marks:
Championships — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 4
Most Valuable Player Awards — Tom Brady: 4 | Joe Montana: 3
Record — Tom Brady: 5-2 | Joe Montana: 4-0
Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 15 | Joe Montana: 11
Interceptions — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 0
Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 67.0 | Joe Montana: 68.0
Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 2,071 | Joe Montana: 1,142
Completions — Tom Brady: 207 | Joe Montana: 83
Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 95.3 | Joe Montana: 127.8
Margin of Victory in Super Bowl Wins — Tom Brady: +19 | Joe Montana: +76
 
Career Postseason Marks:
Record — Tom Brady: 25-9 | Joe Montana: 16-7
Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 63 | Joe Montana: 45
Interceptions — Tom Brady: 31 | Joe Montana: 21
Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 62.7 | Joe Montana: 62.7
Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 9,094 | Joe Montana: 5,772
Completions — Tom Brady: 831 | Joe Montana: 460
Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 89.0 | Joe Montana: 95.6
Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 10 | Joe Montana: 5

I’m not sure where you got your stats, but the source you used must have been from about 2016 because it leaves off three trips to the Super Bowl and two rings for Brady.  Basically it omits a HOF career worth of his stats, and Brady’s accomplishments STILL dwarf Montana’s.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Brady did it for so much longer period of time.  Granted the rule changes made it easier for him to last.  I can recall Montana also having some bad games in the playoffs in years they didn't make it to the SB.  There was no free agency back then, Montana won all those years with more of the same roster and star players around him.  Brady won with complete roster turnover though out the years and probably with a handful of exceptions less superstar talent around him .

[Gregg]

If winning championships is a factor, then its Brady AINEC. But overall QB talent I would say Manning, Marino, Montana, Mahomes are right there with Brady. But Brady wins because you can't argue with 7 Super Bowl championships. 

[Mikie2times]

• So allow defenders to do whatever they want to WR's for the first 5 yards, which Brady didn't deal with after 2004. Thus slowing down his ability to get rid of the ball quickly, making him hold the ball longer
• Holding the ball longer exposes you to more physical punishment, which in Montana's time was savage. You either knocked him out or lost. Even in the early 2000's the NFL was not allowing that and by midway thru his career you couldn't touch Brady, a point most of this forum conceded long ago  
• Add in the increase in sports science, medical advances, training advances

Brady was, thus far, a player that performed the best at QB when you could avoid the major hits, when you didn't have to deal with your WR's timing getting totally F'ed in the first five yards. You could be elite at reading defenses and get the ball out quick, be accurate and clutch and nothing could stop it. All are things very few players had like Brady did, he is far better than any of his pears in excelling in this environment. That said, his weaknesses, namely his inability to perform when he is under duress and the requirement that he get the ball out quick are basically gone if he plays football in the 80's. His longevity would also be gone. Average passer rating in the 80's was 75, it's in the 90's now. It' very much all hypothetical. But this concept of a landslide victory is just not the case. It's hard to imagine how you could have done Better than Brady did in the era he played, it's equally hard to imagine how you could have done better than Montana did in the era he played. 

[Charles Romes]

If you actually watch the whole Dwight Clark “catch” NFC championship game you will notice Montana played so bad that he would have likely been benched before the final drive by todays standards.  Three horrendous picks. 

[ddaryl]

for me there is no single G.O.A.T at any position

 

there are multiple players in the conversation from different eras.... Really that what it is, all the best of the best are in the conversation 

[corta765]

So one element that needs to be factored in that is not brought up enough is the format of the league in terms of the playoffs and schedule. The NFL back then only had ten teams total make it in and there were three divisions so only two wild card spots. The 82 season more teams made it because of the strike, but the strike messed with teams badly and some teams that normally would've made it didn't. The four division structure waters down things where an 8-9 Brady team did make a playoff birth AND hosted a playoff game. Also the LA Rams actually were a real in division issue for San Fran throughout the entire 80s making the playoffs every year from 1980 - 1989 minus 81/82/82 two of which were strike years and winning the division in 85. At no point did the Patriots have an division threat that large they had to contend with which allowed NE to regularly host at least one playoff game at home.

 

Now throw in the way QBs are protected today vs the 80s when Montana was at his peak and that is another element that you cannot quantify either but it 100% has an impact.

 

Overall Brady is the GOAT to me, but Montana is the only one with a legitimate case across the board at him and factoring in these other elements it gives some real credence to the idea in todays conditions and structure he could've had a similar lasting success how Brady did.

[Chicken Boo]

All things being equal - for your life - which QB do you go with? 

 

For me it's a coin toss, but I lean Brady because of Montana's injury history.  Personally, I believe injuries are the only thing that kept Cool Joe from going 5 or 6-0 in the Super Bowl, so there's that.

 

*In the same vein, Joe Gibbs doesn't get near enough credit for winning 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs.  That's plain nuts.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Chicken Boo

[FireChans]

11 hours ago, Billl said:

Didn’t hurt that the team also had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, Ronnie Lott, Charles Haley, Michael Carter, Bill Romanowski, Wesley Walls…

 

Montana was arguably the GOAT before Brady came along, but Brady ended any legitimate debate.

This is correct. It was a debate when it was 4-2 vs 4-0. It’s no longer a debate Brady wins. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

[Punching Bag]

Teflon™ T*m is the GOAT of cheating.  In order to evaluate career fairly you need to include that unless you are a bildo. 

[Don Otreply]

Did Joe Montana ever lose a Super Bowl? 
 

Did Joe Montana and or his team get busted for cheating on a regular basis for decades? 
 

Did Joe Montana display blatant poor sportsmanship every season of his career?

 

Now ask these questions of Tom Brady…, 

[May Day 10]

Montana and Brady are both clutch and ice in their veins and are the 2 most successful quarterbacks ever.

 

 

I, personally don't consider either the GOAT, even era-adjusted.

 

IMO, both Elway and Marino were better Quarterbacks than Montana.  Manning was a better QB than Brady (but was largely squandered by the Colts).  The new age of QBs are probably better than all of them as they are freaks.  

 

[Enemarty]

12 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Brady made his coach look better than he was.   Montana's coach made Montana look better than he was.    In my lifetime I've found the easiest way to the truth is to choose the answer with the least amount of what ifs or variables.  Brady is the GOAT and to me it's not close.  Personally, I think the larger debate here is whether Montana was better than Peyton Manning.   Hell, Mahomes should already be mentioned in the conversation for 2nd best ever.  But just like with Jordan in Basketball, there is no real discussion about who is the GOAT.

Just went through four pages and it is the first response that I agree with the most.  I've watched Montana from Notre Dame through KC.  He has always been a personal favorite of mine as he made the most of a less than athletic frame through a superior intellect.  Of course, he benefitted from a transformative offensive genius who, naturally, found his ideal quarterback in Montana.  But Brady took Montana to the next level.  Perhaps, had they played in the same era, same rules, same teammates and opponents, their play would be indistinguishable.  But for my money, Brady has a crazy intensity that sets him apart from everyone, except perhaps Peyton.  In a weird way, I think Peyton's athleticism actually worked against him at times, as he would overly rely on it to the detriment of his arguably equally superior mental game.  As a result, I think Peyton comes second to TB12 as the greatest of all time.  Bill Walsh would have been ecstatic with either Tom or Peyton.  

[Einstein]

Nothing against Montana, but anyone downgrading Brady is just hating.

 

His sustained excellence for 20 years will never be seen again.

[Nihilarian]

Many teams are still running a style of the WCO and how many QB's have won SBs, MVPs in that scheme. 

 

The GOAT is Brady no question...left NE and went to TB and won another SB. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, KzooMike said:

• So allow defenders to do whatever they want to WR's for the first 5 yards, which Brady didn't deal with after 2004. Thus slowing down his ability to get rid of the ball quickly, making him hold the ball longer
• Holding the ball longer exposes you to more physical punishment, which in Montana's time was savage. You either knocked him out or lost. Even in the early 2000's the NFL was not allowing that and by midway thru his career you couldn't touch Brady, a point most of this forum conceded long ago  
• Add in the increase in sports science, medical advances, training advances

 

Brady had won 3 Super Bowl’s before the DB rule change occurred and before the league began to crack down on QB hits.

 

Thats the most impressive part. Brady won SB’s in BOTH era’s.

 

Remember when Nate Clements knocked Brady’s block off? One of the most savage QB hits in memory and Brady won the SB that same year.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

If winning championships is a factor, then its Brady AINEC. But overall QB talent I would say Manning, Marino, Montana, Mahomes are right there with Brady. But Brady wins because you can't argue with 7 Super Bowl championships. 

 

3 MVPs, 5 super bowl MVPs, 7 championships.  He was MVP of the last undefeated regular season team.

 

Career numbers at time of retirement

1st all time in passing yards

1st all time in passing TDs

10th all time in passer rating 

3rd and 5th on the list for most passing yards in a single season

1 of 3 QBs to throw for 50 TDs in a season

 

It's not just longevity when you do it at such a high level consistently for so absurdly long.  And this is with the patriots building an offense around scat backs, slot WRs, and TE's for the majority of his time there.  

[NoHuddleKelly12]

I think we need to input all the data into Nintendo Super Tecmo Bowl and let the computer (or a few intrepid gamers like @dollars 2 donuts) tell us! 

Edited April 12, 2023 by NoHuddleKelly12

[thenorthremembers]

38 minutes ago, Enemarty said:

Just went through four pages and it is the first response that I agree with the most.  I've watched Montana from Notre Dame through KC.  He has always been a personal favorite of mine as he made the most of a less than athletic frame through a superior intellect.  Of course, he benefitted from a transformative offensive genius who, naturally, found his ideal quarterback in Montana.  But Brady took Montana to the next level.  Perhaps, had they played in the same era, same rules, same teammates and opponents, their play would be indistinguishable.  But for my money, Brady has a crazy intensity that sets him apart from everyone, except perhaps Peyton.  In a weird way, I think Peyton's athleticism actually worked against him at times, as he would overly rely on it to the detriment of his arguably equally superior mental game.  As a result, I think Peyton comes second to TB12 as the greatest of all time.  Bill Walsh would have been ecstatic with either Tom or Peyton.  

Peyton is my number 2 as well.   Had he not played in the Era of Brady, I think he would have easily won more Superbowls than Montana, but he did so its pointless to wonder.

 

Brady had the same level of intensity as Jordan.   Just an unquenchable thirst to win.   I think Tiger Woods had the same type of mindset prior to the madness in his personal life.

[MrEpsYtown]

I hate Brady. But he is the GOAT

[dollars 2 donuts]

12 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

I think we need to input all the data into Nintendo Super Tecmo Bowl and let the computer (or a few intrepid gamers like @dollars 2 donuts) tell us! 

 

 

It is a great weight you have put on my shoulders, Sir.  

 

I did not ask for this burden.  It has been thrust upon me out of necessity.

 

Please know its importance is not lost on me.

 

Let me me finish my egg McMuffin and ponder it further.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by dollars 2 donuts

[hondo in seattle]

In my mind the argument kind of runs like this...

 

I have some heartburn about Brady being crowned the GOAT...  When you look back at some past GOAT candidates like Jim Brown and even OJ, they were clearly the very best at their position in their time.  There was no debate - they dominated.  Like Babe Ruth in baseball.  In 1920, when Ruth hit 54 home runs, the next-best guy only hit 19.    

 

Brady never dominated any particular season like some other GOAT candidates did.  There were always other QBs like Rodgers and Brees who were on the top of the pyramid with Brady.   If Brady's the GOAT, it's because (1) he sustained excellence for so long and (2) he's got the rings.  

 

And I have problems with both points.  The hardware argument always bothers me because football is a team sport.  Brady didn't win his rings alone.  Even those who say Brady made Belichick, and not the other way around, will probably concede that Brady wouldn't have won as many rings with Rex Ryan as his HC or if the rest of the roster looked like the '84 or '85 Bills.  

 

And if the so-good-so-long argument is valid, we'd have to conclude that Emmit Smith is the best RB ever.  Yet I personally wouldn't put him in the top five. 

 

Plus you do have to wonder, like the OP, if Brady would have played so well for so long if he played during a more manly era.  Namath's years of effectiveness were cut short by knee injuries.  Theismann's leg was destroyed.   Steve Young's career would have been longer if not for concussions.  Some for Troy Aikman.  If sustained greatness is a criterion to be named the GOAT, Brady has an 'unfair' advantage by playing during a time when the rules treat QBs like princesses.