Mass shooting in Buffalo (Those wishing to exchange on the political aspects of this situation should do so in the thread located in PPP) - edit by moderator

[billsfan1959]

34 minutes ago, TH3 said:

It’s expensive and doesn’t change crime and innocent people get killed. Texas was hours away from executing a woman two weeks ago who has no business being in jail let alone death row.

 

17 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

so only more expensive and not actually impactful as a deterrent?

 

1. It's expensive because of the entirely different manner in which capital cases are prosecuted and the fact that the government is paying the cost of, on average, of approx 14 years of the appeal process.

2. No sentences actually deter criime. Sentences are first and foremost about punishment for an offense.

3. There have always been Innocent people convicted and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Mistakes are inherent in any system run by human beings. By that logic, we shouldn't engage in any harsh sentences for crimes. 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by billsfan1959

[NoSaint]

6 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

1. It's expensive because of the entirely different manner in which capital cases are prosecuted and the fact that the government is paying the cost of, on average, of approx 14 years of the appeal process.

2. No sentences actually deter criime. Sentences are first and foremost about punishment for an offense.

3. There have always been Innocent people convicted and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Mistakes are inherent in any system run by human beings. By that logic, we shouldn't engage in any harsh sentences for crimes. 

 

ultimately, I appreciate the civil tone… but… you argument amounted to:

 

conceding it is indeed more expensive, offering that it is in fact a punishment (well yea, but is it a better punishment?), and a distasteful at best or disingenuous at worst twisting of the point that it’s got finality that other options don’t. 
 

not great and honestly, I suggest we detour back to the case at hand and not the merits of the death penalty philosophically. honestly, both this and my prior comment are less about capital punishment and more about lackluster arguments

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

There have been between 14,000 and 22,000+ murders a year in this country since 1969. That is an average of over 17,000 per year, and a total of over 1 million people murdered in this country in that period. The only time people seem to really care is when they can use a murder (or murders) for their own ends.

 

The real impact of lethal violence on victims, their families, and communities, as well as any real honest discussion about it seem to get lost in the rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs.

 

This could be just me, but I find "Whattaboutism" antithetical to the "honest discussion" said to be desired . 

 

This appears to be a form of "Whattaboutism" (citing an overall murder statistic of 17,000 people per year in a response to reporting on a specific tragic event of violence). 

 

I think a specific event involving the deliberate planned murder of 10 people who were grocery-shopping, based on their skin color and the murderer's self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs, is horrific.  It seems natural and normal to care about this and discuss it, and somewhat puzzling to dismiss or minimize this discussion as a "rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs" if it doesn't address a broader category of issues (murder in this country)

 

 

[Einstein]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This thread was not moved.  It was opened here.

 

My apologies then:

 

On the main Bills forum it has a moved icon next to it and I had to click it in order to get here.
 

So I assumed it was moved.

[BillsFan4]

Woke up hoping this was just a bad dream… 😢

[Dr. Who]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This could be just me, but I find "Whattaboutism" antithetical to the "honest discussion" said to be desired . 

 

This appears to be a form of "Whattaboutism" (citing an overall murder statistic of 17,000 people per year in a response to reporting on a specific tragic event of violence). 

 

I think a specific event involving the deliberate planned murder of 10 people who were grocery-shopping, based on their skin color and the murderer's self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs, is horrific.  It seems natural and normal to care about this and discuss it, and somewhat puzzling to dismiss or minimize this discussion as a "rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs".

 

 

There's no doubt it is a heinous crime and that the disturbed individual who commited it is reprehensible. I've not researched the fella's social media, but there are reports out there that in addition to white supremacy, he expressed even more anti-Semetic rage, that he hated libertarians and identified as "mild moderate authoritarian left, national socialist" with environmentalist proclivities. The "Whattaboutism" comes about because folks are going to ghoulishly use a horrific event to advance ideological political agendas. If one focuses on the specifics of an event, it ought to be about the unique individual who perpetrated it. Contributing factors should not include reactively branding half the country complicit in a monstrous action, which unfortunately is what often happens.

[716er]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This could be just me, but I find "Whattaboutism" antithetical to the "honest discussion" said to be desired . 

 

This appears to be a form of "Whattaboutism" (citing an overall murder statistic of 17,000 people per year in a response to reporting on a specific tragic event of violence). 

 

I think a specific event involving the deliberate planned murder of 10 people who were grocery-shopping, based on their skin color and the murderer's self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs, is horrific.  It seems natural and normal to care about this and discuss it, and somewhat puzzling to dismiss or minimize this discussion as a "rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs".

 

 

 

It could also easily be argued minimizing the tragedy so it's not about white nationalism also suits certain peoples' needs.

[BillsFan4]

😢

[Rc2catch]

I’m in Tennessee and not really from the area anymore. But my heart goes out to you guys in the area or affected by this. So sad for all the families. 

[billsfan1959]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This could be just me, but I find "Whattaboutism" antithetical to the "honest discussion" said to be desired . 

 

This appears to be a form of "Whattaboutism" (citing an overall murder statistic of 17,000 people per year in a response to reporting on a specific tragic event of violence). 

 

I think a specific event involving the deliberate planned murder of 10 people who were grocery-shopping, based on their skin color and the murderer's self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs, is horrific.  It seems natural and normal to care about this and discuss it, and somewhat puzzling to dismiss or minimize this discussion as a "rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs".

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong. The facts of this case, as we know them, certainly indicate the offender set out to murder people based on "his self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs." I have no problem with discussing it in that sense. I fully understand that there are certain crimes that will inherently draw more attention than others, for a variety of reasons. Again, that is not my issue. My issue is when the motive becomes greater than the central tragedy and used by some people in ways it shouldn't be.

 

The truth is, that there are literally thousands of people, every year, that are intentionally murdered for all kinds of motives. The overwhelming majority of them never garner more than a headline on page 5 of the local paper because the circumstances or motives surrounding their murders don't provide a platform for broader uses. 

 

It is not "Whattaboutism." Nor is it antithetical to "honest discussion." Mass murder victims comprise an incredibly small percentage of homicides. As stated, I fully understand the reasons they become national stories. However, to me, they always seem get hijacked for one reason or another, while the lack of interest in the overwhelming percentage of homicides in this country that actually represent the more typical homicides never allow us to engage in real honest discussion of the underlying issues.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by billsfan1959

[YoloinOhio]

This is so heartbreaking.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

1. It's expensive because of the entirely different manner in which capital cases are prosecuted and the fact that the government is paying the cost of, on average, of approx 14 years of the appeal process.

2. No sentences actually deter criime. Sentences are first and foremost about punishment for an offense.

3. There have always been Innocent people convicted and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Mistakes are inherent in any system run by human beings. By that logic, we shouldn't engage in any harsh sentences for crimes. 

 

 

Wrongly convicted people sometimes get released. The wrongly executed don't have that option.

 

I'm curious, what is an acceptable number of innocent people executed to you? 100? 30? 10? Are they the unavoidable collateral damage in the pursuit of blood lust?

[stuvian]

My heart goes out to the wonderful people of Buffalo. A city I have grown to love through its teams and its people. This city did nothing to deserve such horror.

 

Racist hatred and gun violence can destroy everything we love. We need to work for peace everyday.

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, 716er said:

 

It could also easily be argued minimizing the tragedy so it's not about white nationalism also suits certain peoples' needs.

 

Honestly. Nobody is trying to minimize the murder of ten people or the fact that the offender did it for vile and reprehensible reasons based on race and views of other human beings as inferior and worthless in some way. It should turn everyone's stomach and be condemned in every way possible. 

 

People can express an opinion about something without their motivations turned into this.

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by billsfan1959

[Nextmanup]

So we can all agree "this is horrible."

 

But what can we all agree to do about this?

 

This happens twice a week in this country!  And we never--as a society--do a THING about it!

 

We love this stuff!  It's America's new national pastime!  Screw baseball!  We love mass shootings.

 

I see big time politicians talking about this RIGHT NOW on CNN....

 

You know what will be done?  NOTHING!

 

Get ready to be sickened by the next one, too!

 

🤝

[Nextmanup]

As an aside: it's worth noting (especially for younger Bills fans) that this shooting took place about 3 blocks north from the old main entrance to the Rockpile, Buffalo War Memorial Stadium.

 

Extremely close to where the stadium used to be and where people like OJ played lot of football.

 

 

[Just Jack]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

My apologies then:

 

On the main Bills forum it has a moved icon next to it and I had to click it in order to get here.
 

So I assumed it was moved.

 

Someone opened a thread on the main forum, and it was merged with this one, that's why you see the moved icon over there.  

[billsfan1959]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Wrongly convicted people sometimes get released. The wrongly executed don't have that option.

 

I'm curious, what is an acceptable number of innocent people executed to you? 100? 30? 10? Are they the unavoidable collateral damage in the pursuit of blood lust?

 

I am actually not a proponent or an opponent of the death penalty. I would have no problem if this country did away with it tomorrow. My stance is that, as long as it is an allowable form of punishment under the law, I can support it being given as a form of punishment in an extremely small percentage of cases that meet certain criteria. 

 

Part of the criteria (not all) in those small percentage of cases is physical evidence that is conclusive. Believe it or not, there are cases where the evidence is conclusive.

 

Saying that there have always been innocent people convicted in criminal justice systems run by human beings is not the same as saying I am fine with it. I have no lust for blood and I never want to see an innocent person convicted, much less given the death penalty.

 

Like I said, if the people in this country wanted to do away with the death penalty to ensure an innocent person was never put to death, I would have no opposition to it.

 

 

[Beerball]

21 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

So we can all agree "this is horrible."

 

But what can we all agree to do about this?

 

This happens twice a week in this country!  And we never--as a society--do a THING about it!

 

We love this stuff!  It's America's new national pastime!  Screw baseball!  We love mass shootings.

 

I see big time politicians talking about this RIGHT NOW on CNN....

 

You know what will be done?  NOTHING!

 

Get ready to be sickened by the next one, too!

 

🤝

Coffers will be filled. Coffers on both sides of the aisle.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

There's no doubt it is a heinous crime and that the disturbed individual who commited it is reprehensible. I've not researched the fella's social media, but there are reports out there that in addition to white supremacy, he expressed even more anti-Semetic rage, that he hated libertarians and identified as "mild moderate authoritarian left, national socialist" with environmentalist proclivities. The "Whattaboutism" comes about because folks are going to ghoulishly use a horrific event to advance ideological political agendas. If one focuses on the specifics of an event, it ought to be about the unique individual who perpetrated it. Contributing factors should not include reactively branding half the country complicit in a monstrous action, which unfortunately is what often happens.

So in your mind, citing a person’s ‘environmentalism’ in a case where he murdered black people is just as relevant as the fact that he’s a white nationalist…all while lecturing folks on being ghoulish😂😂😂

[Hapless Bills Fan]

41 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Honestly. Nobody is trying to minimize the murder of ten people or the fact that the offender did it for vile and reprehensible reasons based on race and views of other human beings as inferior and worthless in some way. It should turn everyone's stomach and be condemned in every way possible. 

 

People can express an opinion about something without their motivations turned into this.

 

 

I hope it's true that no one is trying to minimize the murder of 10 people or the fact that the offender did it for vile reasons based on racist views.

 

On that we can agree.

[BuffaninSarasota]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

There's no doubt it is a heinous crime and that the disturbed individual who commited it is reprehensible. I've not researched the fella's social media, but there are reports out there that in addition to white supremacy, he expressed even more anti-Semetic rage, that he hated libertarians and identified as "mild moderate authoritarian left, national socialist" with environmentalist proclivities. The "Whattaboutism" comes about because folks are going to ghoulishly use a horrific event to advance ideological political agendas. If one focuses on the specifics of an event, it ought to be about the unique individual who perpetrated it. Contributing factors should not include reactively branding half the country complicit in a monstrous action, which unfortunately is what often happens.

very salient point. Unfortunately we have a couple individuals over at PPP who are demonstrating this behavior right now.

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I hope it's true that no one is trying to minimize the murder of 10 people or the fact that the offender did it for vile reasons based on racist views.

 

On that we can agree.

 

I would hope so as well. I can only confirm that I never had any intention of minimizing this event. I am repulsed and heartbroken over what took place. I was simply responding to another poster's point about a history in this country of engaging in anything more than superficial efforts to understand root causes and effective solutions to gun violence.

 

Those are not mutually exclusive positions. Unfortunately, a few folks seem to have interpreted my reponse as minimizing what happened and, even worse, attributing it to some vile motive. I would hope, before doing that, people would just ask me to clarify what I meant, as you did.

[TH3]

3 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

1. It's expensive because of the entirely different manner in which capital cases are prosecuted and the fact that the government is paying the cost of, on average, of approx 14 years of the appeal process.

2. No sentences actually deter criime. Sentences are first and foremost about punishment for an offense.

3. There have always been Innocent people convicted and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Mistakes are inherent in any system run by human beings. By that logic, we shouldn't engage in any harsh sentences for crimes. 

 

Please forward this note to that woman in Texas and her family…it will make sense of the whole thing for them

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

More info. Building off what logic posted earlier. 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/buffalo-supermarket-shooting-suspect-posted-034157402.html

 

"In the manifesto, Gendron (the shooter) claims that he was radicalized on 4chan (website) while he was “bored” at the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic in early 2020.

 

:The manifesto includes dozens of pages antisemitic and racist memes, repeatedly citing the racist “Great Replacement” conspiracy theory frequently pushed by white supremacists, which falsely alleges white people are being “replaced” in America as part of an elaborate Jewish conspiracy theory. Other memes use tropes and discredited data to denigrate the intelligence of non-white people."

 

"Great Replacement" theory has recently received support from traditional power centers of the American right. According to an AP-NORC poll released this week, 1 in 3 U.S. adults believe there is an ongoing effort “to replace U.S.-born Americans with immigrants for electoral gains.”

 

"Fox News’ Tucker Carlson has repeatedly pushed “replacement” rhetoric on his show. “I know that the left and all the little gatekeepers on Twitter become literally hysterical if you use the term ‘replacement,’ if you suggest for the Democratic Party is trying to replace the current electorate, the voters now casting ballots, with new people, more obedient voters from the Third World,” Carlson said in April of 2021

 

He is not a lone wolf. More shootings like this could be coming 

 

 

[TH3]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

So we can all agree "this is horrible."

 

But what can we all agree to do about this?

 

This happens twice a week in this country!  And we never--as a society--do a THING about it!

 

We love this stuff!  It's America's new national pastime!  Screw baseball!  We love mass shootings.

 

I see big time politicians talking about this RIGHT NOW on CNN....

 

You know what will be done?  NOTHING!

 

Get ready to be sickened by the next one, too!

 

🤝

Our country has decided that this stuff is an acceptable cost to unfettered access to guns and free and unaccountabile actions  on the internet. Other countries have decided it is not.

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Please forward this note to that woman in Texas and her family…it will make sense of the whole thing for them

 

Perhaps you could read my post on the previous page regarding what I feel about the application of the death penalty and the wrongfully accused, or just ask me if I am fine with what happened to that woman. It would really be more productive than a comment like this.

[Shay]

Always fear, fear of not being enough, not getting something that you feel entitled too, blaming someone else , especially people who look different from you, believe in things that are different from your beliefs always at the heart of hateful actions and violence,

the mind is so quick to soak up crap when people are vulnerable and feel crappy about their own lives.

Today I am feeling tired and frankly disgusted..this cannot be acceptable 

 

[Marv's Neighbor]

Situations such as this happen so often that it's easy to become desensitized to them.  But, when this happens in the city that's my home town, it really hurts.  Have to wonder if I ever met or knew any of these innocent people?

 

RIP to all the innocent victims, and their loved ones.  Truly tragic!

[HappyDays]

 

This is really upsetting. No way this kid should have had access to body armor and an assault rifle. Somewhere along the way the system failed. Just to be clear this is NOT a message about gun control which I am fairly moderate on. But there has to be some mechanism in place to make sure people like this don't have tactical combat gear in their hands. That is the bare minimum of what we should be able to do as a society.

[jkeerie]

14 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Our country has decided that this stuff is an acceptable cost to unfettered access to guns and free and unaccountabile actions  on the internet. Other countries have decided it is not.

You have hit the nail on the head.  We all thought after the massive slaughter of little children in Sandy Hook, some action would be taken. That withered into the usual "thoughts and prayers" and nothing was done.  I have little hope for this country, and it breaks my heart.

[jkeerie]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is really upsetting. No way this kid should have had access to body armor and an assault rifle. Somewhere along the way the system failed. Just to be clear this is NOT a message about gun control which I am fairly moderate on. But there has to be some mechanism in place to make sure people like this don't have tactical combat gear in their hands. That is the bare minimum of what we should be able to do as a society.

And many politicians don't want to do even the bare minimum.  It's not about getting elected to do the right thing.  It's about getting elected.  Governor Hochul in the presser today said action needs to be taken nationally.  However, she is working with 9 other states to trace the pipeline of weapons and high round magazines to try and stem the tide.

[Warcodered]

 

[Warcodered]

 

[Warcodered]

 

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

How did they not shot this redneck POS??

 

Black shooter wouldn't live to arraignment....

Again don't turn my thread into a race argument

 

He lived because he followed directions and put the gun down .. and he surrendered

 

He's a piece of ***** and we probably could save the money from a trial... But he surrendered 

 

We come together in the City of Buffalo ... It took an outsider to do this to us

 

Don't race bait 

 

Black white hispanic Asian Will all come together in the city

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Buffalo716

[Doc Brown]

4 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

1. It's expensive because of the entirely different manner in which capital cases are prosecuted and the fact that the government is paying the cost of, on average, of approx 14 years of the appeal process.

2. No sentences actually deter criime. Sentences are first and foremost about punishment for an offense.

3. There have always been Innocent people convicted and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Mistakes are inherent in any system run by human beings. By that logic, we shouldn't engage in any harsh sentences for crimes. 

 

Right....but if they find out your innocent while your in jail they can release you and you get to enjoy the rest of your life.  If your innocent and they execute you they can't dig you out of your grave and bring you back to life.

[StHustle]

10 hours ago, ALF said:

A interview on CH 4 at 11pm  with a black man who spoke to the killer for 1 and 3/4 hour Friday outside that Tops. They talked about all kind of subjects. He normally sat outside there to talk to people  but Saturday afternoon the guard who was killed kept clearing the area that saved his life. Buffalo is making such progress then this tragedy happens , sad beyond belief. It's a shame  that good black man with his kindness to the killer the day before didn't change his mind.

I can’t find that interview anywhere. Sure it was Channel 4?

[Captain Caveman]

17 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To be fair, some people flying the confederate battle flag don't perceive it as a symbol of hate

 

To be more fair, most people in NY State flying the confederate flag know exactly what it means to most people.

[Buffalo716]

10 hours ago, ALF said:

A interview on CH 4 at 11pm  with a black man who spoke to the killer for 1 and 3/4 hour Friday outside that Tops. They talked about all kind of subjects. He normally sat outside there to talk to people  but Saturday afternoon the guard who was killed kept clearing the area that saved his life. Buffalo is making such progress then this tragedy happens , sad beyond belief. It's a shame  that good black man with his kindness to the killer the day before didn't change his mind.

This is not an indictment on the City of Buffalo

 

This hatred came from outside our community to stir up the flames of division.. he drove 3 hours to destroy our community

 

This is not Buffalo and this is not a representation of my city

 

We don't condone this.. Buffalo is stronger than this

Edited May 15, 2022 by Buffalo716