How bad is it for Lesile Frazier?

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

When Lovie Smith, gets a head coaching job over Frazier.  Is Lovie really better than Frazier?  Love’s defense was horrible last year except when he played the Jets and Lovie’s tenure in Illinois was something you would not rights books about.

 I know the Kanas City game  was a disaster and it would be hard to sell a fan base on that game but even I think Frazier is better then Lovie Smith. 

Smith was 81-63 in Chicago and had Rex Grossman, Chad Hutchison, Kyle Orton, Brian Griese, and Jay Cutler as his QBs. He was fired after a 10-6 season too.

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He did. In Tampa. And went 8-24.

Slightly deceiving. He took over a mess of team and then went 2-14 and then 6-10 the next season with a rookie Jameis Winston. Interestingly, Leslie Frazier was his DC in TB. They finished 5th in yards on offense and 10th in yards allowed on defense. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by dave mcbride

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1. You could not explain to your fan base hiring a guy that couldn't defend for 13 seconds

2. The rest of the league knows the Bills defensive ranking was fraudulent based on opposition QBs

3. Nobody really knows how much of the defenses success or failure is Frazier or McDermott

4. Frazier was far worse than Lovie Smith as a HC. Smith was a coach of the year and took Bears to SB with Grossman.  Tampa job after that was a no win gig. Illinois is a terrible program in a difficult conference. Had he skipped Illinois and went back to being a DC he may have already gotten another HC opportunity. 

 

All that said I would have hired Todd Bowles over Lovie, Flores, or Frazier. 

[Sharky7337]

The 13 second melt down is a career ruiner. Simple as that.

[damj]

2 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

When Lovie Smith, gets a head coaching job over Frazier.  Is Lovie really better than Frazier?  Love’s defense was horrible last year except when he played the Jets and Lovie’s tenure in Illinois was something you would not rights books about.

 I know the Kanas City game  was a disaster and it would be hard to sell a fan base on that game but even I think Frazier is better then Lovie Smith. 

I heard he was close though.

 

He was 13 seconds away from getting the job!

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

I’ll make millions on a one year deal to coach any team😎

count it as $5M

[fan_in_tx]

45 minutes ago, Sharky7337 said:

The 13 second melt down is a career ruiner. Simple as that.

One "Oh Crap" wipes out a whole lotta "Atta Boys".   

 

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Well… he did say he doesn’t like to make adjustments to the game plan this past season …

I read that as well, and was frankly stunned by such an admission, not a confidence building statement to say the least, admitting that you essentially have no plan “B” and wouldn’t want to use it even if you had it, is damming to say the least.
 

  Now I do think LF is a good man etc, but that he doesn’t see the benefit of changing gears when necessary, and insists on trying to shove the square peg into the round hole no matter what, says an awful lot about his limitations as a coach. 
 

If his thinking is SOP for many other coaches, one can then understand why so many coaches in the league are not actually competitive, and in turn, unsuccessful. 

 

 

Go Bills!!!

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, SectionC3 said:

Could be.  But it’s hard to imagine someone who wants to be a HC turning down such a job at his age. 

 

What I can't imagine is Leslie Frazier being so desperate for a HCing  gig that he'd settle for the Texans' job.  

[freddyjj]

3 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

When Lovie Smith, gets a head coaching job over Frazier.  Is Lovie really better than Frazier?  Love’s defense was horrible last year except when he played the Jets and Lovie’s tenure in Illinois was something you would not rights books about.

 I know the Kanas City game  was a disaster and it would be hard to sell a fan base on that game but even I think Frazier is better then Lovie Smith. 

Lovie took the 2006 Bears to the SB, with REX GROSSMAN at QB!  He is a .500 coach at 89-87 in regular season and 3-3 in playoffs.  He was 8-24 with Tampa in 2014-2015 with Josh McCown and then Jameis Winston in his rookie year at QB,  He was 81-63 with the Bears over 9 years with only 3 losing seasons against 3 playoff appearances.

 

Frazier was 21-32-1 over 3 plus years as a head coach.  He had 1 playoff appearance which was a  one and done.

 

Not sure why you would want Leslie over Lovie as a HC.

[bigK14094]

Frazier will just have to continue to do his job and collect the three million the Bills pay him.  At 62, he will do this for a couple more years and then sail off into the sunset imho.

[Livinginthepast]

The sad part is the Bills could have easily won the SB with Frazier this year had he only been even slightly competent in those last 13 secs vs KC. I think going forward it will still be the offense that gets us there and we can win despite Frazier and not because of him.

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, SectionC3 said:

Could be.  But it’s hard to imagine someone who wants to be a HC turning down such a job at his age. 

He has virtually unlimited job security with a great team that is a perennial contender - is he going to give that up to sign up for a 12-month spin around the Houston Texans Career Suicide Machine?

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

When Lovie Smith, gets a head coaching job over Frazier.  Is Lovie really better than Frazier?  Love’s defense was horrible last year except when he played the Jets and Lovie’s tenure in Illinois was something you would not rights books about.

 I know the Kanas City game  was a disaster and it would be hard to sell a fan base on that game but even I think Frazier is better then Lovie Smith. 

 

I mean not really a fair comparison considering Lovie was in an house promotion.  

 

Dont get me wrong, I wish Frazier got the job as I would love to see what a new DC could add into this defensive unit myself.  But, I don't think Lovie getting the job really has much to do about Frazier or how he is perceived.

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, Sharky7337 said:

The 13 second melt down is a career ruiner. Simple as that.

Yes because as we all know the Chiefs are a historically terrible team at moving the ball quickly. 🙄

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

When Lovie Smith, gets a head coaching job over Frazier.  Is Lovie really better than Frazier?  Love’s defense was horrible last year except when he played the Jets and Lovie’s tenure in Illinois was something you would not rights books about.

 I know the Kanas City game  was a disaster and it would be hard to sell a fan base on that game but even I think Frazier is better then Lovie Smith. 

Frazier didn’t interview in Houston this year.  It really seems like Lovie got the job under dubious circumstances this season.  
 

If anyone has a lawsuit against the NFL for a racially discriminatory hiring practice - it should be Frazier.  He has been the token interview on many occasions to “check boxes.”

[CorkScrewHill]

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

People know that Leslie is Calling and Coaching McD defense.  

 

Leslie is a Cover-2 coach, and we are a Cover-3 McD Defense.  So interviews likely show to that again that his defense that he pitches is back into the Cover-2 mindset.

This I think is what is also holding back Eric Bieniemy. Andy Reid calls the plays and the view is that Mahommes dropped into the league as a stud so what has Bieniemy done .. whereas Daboll is credited (whether or not it is deserved) with changing Josh from a perceived bust-worthy draft pick into a top 3 quarterback.

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, Sharky7337 said:

The 13 second melt down is a career ruiner. Simple as that.

People said that after Shanahan’s offense melted down at 28-3. That’s not how hiring decisions are made. 

[JohnNord]

8 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

He has virtually unlimited job security with a great team that is a perennial contender - is he going to give that up to sign up for a 12-month spin around the Houston Texans Career Suicide Machine?

He wanted the job last season

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

1. You could not explain to your fan base hiring a guy that couldn't defend for 13 seconds

2. The rest of the league knows the Bills defensive ranking was fraudulent based on opposition QBs

3. Nobody really knows how much of the defenses success or failure is Frazier or McDermott

4. Frazier was far worse than Lovie Smith as a HC. Smith was a coach of the year and took Bears to SB with Grossman.  Tampa job after that was a no win gig. Illinois is a terrible program in a difficult conference. Had he skipped Illinois and went back to being a DC he may have already gotten another HC opportunity. 

 

All that said I would have hired Todd Bowles over Lovie, Flores, or Frazier. 

You don’t know if you can credit Frazier with the defense’s success but have no problem putting the blame on him for its failure? Alright I guess.

[YoloinOhio]

4 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

He wanted the job last season

before Watson demanded to pick the HC, then was accused of sexual assault, then no longer the QB, and they hired and fired a HC in a 12 month span. It and considered a good job at the end of last season. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by YoloinOhio

[Sharky7337]

12 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

People said that after Shanahan’s offense melted down at 28-3. That’s not how hiring decisions are made. 

 

Sorry but I respectfully disagree and I think it's hard to ignore that is the main reason.

 

If you were an owner and saw that you would sign up for that?

 

Let's just be real.

[DrDawkinstein]

I'd rather be the Bills DC than take most of the open HC jobs on trash teams with garbage FOs.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

3 hours ago, T master said:

I had wondered why Lovey hadn't gotten another HC job after leaving the Bears i thought he was a decent coach & would have been good for some team .

 

Yes, I thought he would get another shot too, and here it is. I’d say the same for Bowles, who reminds me of Frazier, except more aggressive. He’ll get another  shot too eventually 

[SectionC3]

41 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

He has virtually unlimited job security with a great team that is a perennial contender - is he going to give that up to sign up for a 12-month spin around the Houston Texans Career Suicide Machine?

 

There’s only 32 of those jobs. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

3 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

I have a feeling there will be a 30 for 30 or some other type of documentary done on the Houston Texans debacle when it is all said and done. Lots going on down there. Good luck to Lovie, always seems like a nice man. 

The whole Texan thing is always overblown.  Culley did a good job w the team.  Those guys on the Texans played hard last year.  They beat the Chargers late in the season.  The media and social media is always looking for something to make a big deal about.  But inside the walls most players come to work every day like any other job and bust their asses to be the best they can be.  All the rest is clutter.  And with social media its 24/7/365 ad nauseum.  Lovie is solid.  And get the most out of his players.  The team in that division that really underperformed this past year was the Colts.  They choked big time.  Frank Reich really lost some luster w the loss to the Jags on the final Sunday of the season.  The perception versus the reality of what goes on with teams is not always close.

[Buffalo Boy]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

count it as $5M

I’m not greedy😎

[DrDawkinstein]

13 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

The whole Texan thing is always overblown.  Culley did a good job w the team.  Those guys on the Texans played hard last year.  They beat the Chargers late in the season.  The media and social media is always looking for something to make a big deal about.  But inside the walls most players come to work every day like any other job and bust their asses to be the best they can be.  All the rest is clutter.  And with social media its 24/7/365 ad nauseum.  Lovie is solid.  And get the most out of his players.  The team in that division that really underperformed this past year was the Colts.  They choked big time.  Frank Reich really lost some luster w the loss to the Jags on the final Sunday of the season.  The perception versus the reality of what goes on with teams is not always close.

 

You're right. Players just show up for their job and collect their check.

 

But the drama for the documentary isnt with the players on the field. It's with ownership, his neighbor/buddy lawyer, Easterby, and their handling of both Watson and the HC spot.

 

And we all know the Owner and FO set the tone for the entire team.

[FilthyBeast]

There's a reason why Frazier did not get a HC gig again this year, and it's not just because of how the season ended in the playoffs against chiefs.

 

I still have to believe there is real discussion on moving on from him and if that does happen will be sooner than later while there are other viable candidates still on the market.

[BuffaloBobs]

15 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

There's a reason why Frazier did not get a HC gig again this year, and it's not just because of how the season ended in the playoffs against chiefs.

 

I still have to believe there is real discussion on moving on from him and if that does happen will be sooner than later while there are other viable candidates still on the market.

 

That's right - we shouldn't accept anything less than being the number one defense in the league. Until we find a coordinator that can get us that top ranking we shouldn't settle.

 

Wait...

[MrEpsYtown]

One thing that does make sense, now that the Giants decided to hire Martindale, perhaps Steve Wilks make sense as a replacement for Frazier. Or, maybe he comes in as assistant head coach and defensive consultant or something. He was with McDermott for a while and replaced him in carolina so there is a connection there and one would think they would be in lock step in terms of what they want to accomplish. 

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

4 hours ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

To be fair, Smith did get the Bears to a Super Bowl with Rex Grossman behind center. Additionally, I don’t think you can judge HC candidates based solely on standings and statistics. Ability to manage, delegate and be a leader of men certainly play a role. Maybe Frazier is just a poor interviewee?

 

That was a miracle in itself (Grossman SB).

I sometimes wonder if coordinators get stuck in the shadow of the HC they are in when the HC strength is the same side of the ball.

 

DC Frazier, HC McDermott - Defense

OC Bieniemy, HC Andy Reid - Offense

 

Eric Bieniemy especially. KC's identity is clearly offense. You would think the Mahomes glow would boost him as a candidate like the Allen glow boosted Daboll.

But few interviews much less offers.

 

With the Bills it is a bit more murky. One would think Buffalo's identity would clearly be defense with Frazier and McDermott, and even though statistically the Buffalo D has been a top performing unit for much of their tenure, their have been plenty of blemishes and few game changing plays. Unfortunately I think that works against Frazier.

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, CorkScrewHill said:

This I think is what is also holding back Eric Bieniemy. Andy Reid calls the plays and the view is that Mahommes dropped into the league as a stud so what has Bieniemy done .. whereas Daboll is credited (whether or not it is deserved) with changing Josh from a perceived bust-worthy draft pick into a top 3 quarterback.

I also think Bieniemy Rap Sheet as a player also hurts him as well.  

[buffalostu2]

5 hours ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

To be fair, Smith did get the Bears to a Super Bowl with Rex Grossman behind center. Additionally, I don’t think you can judge HC candidates based solely on standings and statistics. Ability to manage, delegate and be a leader of men certainly play a role. Maybe Frazier is just a poor interviewee?

 

Maybe he doesn't want A coaching job, maybe he wants THE coaching job.   He has been there before under not ideal conditions so he probably knows.  Even though he takes the interviews just to stay in the media spotlight he might not want just any opening.

[Milanos Milano]

4 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

Fart? I would say it was more like a shart. A fart you might be able escape unscathed from responsibility but that 13 seconds debacle was a shart for sure. Much more visible and a nasty situation hard to escape!

It was worse than a shart. It was a total sprint across the gym floor couldn’t hold it in explosion all over the foul line during the middle of a dodge ball game. A ball happened to be thrown and bounced off the puddle of filth and landed a shot across of the chin of the girl you were about to ask out. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by IronMaidenBills

[Mattymafia]

Lovie also failed miserably at Illinois

[BarleyNY]

7 minutes ago, Mattymafia said:

Lovie also failed miserably at Illinois

Was that actually considered failure by Illinois standards?

[Mattymafia]

4 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Was that actually considered failure by Illinois standards?

I mean if they had to fire a famous Chicago Bears coach that fast, then I'd say yes.

[BarleyNY]

1 minute ago, Mattymafia said:

I mean if they had to fire a famous Chicago Bears coach that fast, then I'd say yes.

I mean, they were almost .500 one of those seasons 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

5 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Well… he did say he doesn’t like to make adjustments to the game plan this past season …

That was almost 20 years ago.  So should some team pull Tom Flores out retirement or Mike Dikta.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, Bangarang said:

You don’t know if you can credit Frazier with the defense’s success but have no problem putting the blame on him for its failure? Alright I guess.

I was just listing the possible reasons he would have been passed over.