Sean Payton on the end of the Bills-Chiefs game

[HomeskillitMoorman]

1 hour ago, Sharky7337 said:

I'm sorry but that defense was inexcusable. Half drunk football fans with 0 coaching experience all over America knew what to do better then that.

 

Cost Frazier any chance at being a head coach again. I don't think he will get another shot now. 

 

I wouldn't want to hire any part of that.

 

At least Peyton gives us a little bit on insight on the kick

Agreed.
 

It’s a tougher pill to swallow for me knowing McD blew that game, especially after watching 17 leave his blood, sweat, and tears out there. That just should not happen. 

46 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

We know it was one mistake after another. Do we need Sean Payton to explain what we did wrong. Sean McDermott has to sleep with it. Hopefully this scar makes Sean more proactive when the stakes are so high. Belichick, Parcells, Payton all know when you can make a move to improve your chances, take the risk. Bills fans will expect that henceforth. 

I hope so with McD, but I’m not as encouraged as you. He was also horrible in last years AFC championship game and had a year to let that marinate and we still saw him bungle it this year. 

5 minutes ago, Dan Darragh said:

What Payton should know since he had to watch Bills film this year is that the Bills kicked short of the goal line frequently and with considerable success all season.  It's not a seldom-used technique for Buffalo.

 

There was a thread here back in mid-season that discussed the fact that Bass was using a 3 step approach on some of his kickoffs, and the result was drive starts inside the 25.

 

Payton's just wrong on this one.

Exactly. That wasn’t asking Bass to do something foreign. He’s right about the D, wrong about the kickoff as he probably just doesn’t have that familiarity with what we did all season. 

[SoMAn]

2 hours ago, racketmaster said:

I would have only rushed 2 defenders with 13 seconds because it does not matter if you get home or not with that little time and with them having timeouts. If Mahomes wanted to stand back there for 11 seconds before throwing so be it. Then game is over by time ball lands. Rushing 2 makes most sense but I could have lived with 3. Rushing 4 on both plays was criminally stupid in that situation. I could care less about the squib because a lot could have happened and Bills likely would be worried about Hill being put back there and getting a big return. 

The idea of rushing 2 is intriguing when time is not on their side. If Mahomes were to burn precious seconds running around or standing like a statue waiting for an open receiver, I can see how the clock could have ticked down to 5 seconds (or less) or Mahomes getting antsy may have fired into a crowd.

 

I believe Frazier/McD or any other coach involved in the final 13 seconds completely forgot that sideline passes weren't the only option for an offense with timeouts.

Or, did one of the players blow an assignment, leaving the middle uncovered?

[Dan Darragh]

7 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

He probably just doesn’t have that familiarity with what we did all season. 

Didn't we play his team this year?  Didn't he review some film for that game?  Maybe he was too burned out to do his homework which is why we scorched his butt.

[TheBrownBear]

20 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Ok, just do it.  I’m sure The Bills feel compelled to let McDermott screw up another entire season before they admit he is Marv Lewis 2.0

Marvin Lewis never won a playoff game.  McDermott has now won three.  The last two seasons we were knocked out on the road against arguably the best team and quarterback in the league (certainly the best over the past 5 years).  

 

I don't know if McDermott is the guy to win us a Super Bowl (or multiple SBs) or if he's the next Marty Schottenheimer, but he's already shown more than Marvin Lewis who was consistently choking away home playoff games.  Not sure how he screwed up an entire season.  Seems to me we've won the division two straight years, made the playoffs in 4 of the last 5, and clearly have the best team in the AFC East heading into next season.  You would have to be insane or the gambler of all gamblers to fire a young head coach like McDermott who has compiled the resume he has over the past five years.  McDermott isn't perfect and no one is saying he is or that he should be above criticism, but this year showed us the same could be said for hoodie and Reid or a number of other coaches (including McVay who has found himself as the Super Bowl favorite just one week after blowing a 20+ point lead in a playoff game). 

 

It seems some posters have had a hard on for McDermott from the moment he became coach - even going so far as to consistently criticize his clapping, which has zero to do with his ability as a coach.  I never really understood the backlash against a guy who has delivered us from 17 years in the football wilderness.

[Thurman#1]

 

 

35 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Our defense had to have been the most overrated unit in the entire NFL this year.  They were great when a team was one dimensional (or made so by a quick start from our offense), but it didn't come close to holding up against better offenses and it seems utterly incapable of getting a big stop at critical moments of a game.  In fact, the only time I can remember our defense making a truly big play in the second half of a contested game was Rousseau's pick of Mahomes at the 10 yard line in the regular season Chiefs game.  Other than that, it seems teams were able to get whatever they wanted down the stretch against us in a close game (which is why we went 0fer in 1 score games this year).  Addressing these defensive failures is my number 1 priority in the offseason if I'm Beane and I'd start with a long hard look at Leslie Frazier.

 

Just curious - for those who have followed Frazier's career, is this kind of his MO?  Beat up on weaklings only to become a bottom-5 defense against diversified offenses?  And I get that "good offenses" are tough for anyone to stop.  But we seemingly can't even slow these guys down for the most part.

 

 

I love the way you arrange that. If the defense held the offense to very few points early then it doesn't count because the game wasn't contested.

 

That's not a legit way to look at the defense's performance. It's a way to find the worst possible perspective on it.

 

The defense played very well in most games. There were certainly a few exceptions, and they should be blamed for those. That Colts game was abysmal. But overall they played really well this year, including against pretty solid offenses An awful first half against the Bucs but a great second half. The offense had some awful games too and somehow nobody wants to talk about that.

 

DVOA adjusts for strength of schedule and the Bills D ranked very high there.

 

 

1 hour ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Fire Frazier

 

 

Almost as nutty as the fire McDermott fruitcakes, one of whom is also in this thread.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Thurman#1

[NastyNateSoldiers]

2 hours ago, racketmaster said:

I would have only rushed 2 defenders with 13 seconds because it does not matter if you get home or not with that little time and with them having timeouts. If Mahomes wanted to stand back there for 11 seconds before throwing so be it. Then game is over by time ball lands. Rushing 2 makes most sense but I could have lived with 3. Rushing 4 on both plays was criminally stupid in that situation. I could care less about the squib because a lot could have happened and Bills likely would be worried about Hill being put back there and getting a big return. 

They called it basically the worse it can get other then using a goal line D 

[Billsfan1972]

21 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Yeah, I remember the "Is our defense elite?" thread or whatever it was called.  I mostly stayed out of it, since it was hard to argue with the stats guys, but I never felt that this defense was anything special when it wasn't getting lucky with turnovers or playing against bottom barrel QBs.  Even now, after it's failures were brought to life in epic fashion, someone will likely come defend Frazier by waving a Pro Football Reference team defense stats printout.

Not Frazier, McD.....  There are many here who  will "go to war" defending him. 

[DCofNC]

7 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Marvin Lewis never won a playoff game.  McDermott has now won three.  The last two seasons we were knocked out on the road against arguably the best team and quarterback in the league (certainly the best over the past 5 years).  

 

I don't know if McDermott is the guy to win us a Super Bowl (or multiple SBs) or if he's the next Marty Schottenheimer, but he's already shown more than Marvin Lewis who was consistently choking away home playoff games.  Not sure how he screwed up an entire season.  Seems to me we've won the division two straight years, made the playoffs in 4 of the last 5, and clearly have the best team in the AFC East heading into next season.  You would have to be insane or the gambler of all gamblers to fire a young head coach like McDermott who has compiled the resume he has over the past five years.  McDermott isn't perfect and no one is saying he is or that he should be above criticism, but this year showed us the same could be said for hoodie and Reid or a number of other coaches (including McVay who has found himself as the Super Bowl favorite just one week after blowing a 20+ point lead in a playoff game). 

 

It seems some posters have had a hard on for McDermott from the moment he became coach - even going so far as to consistently criticize his clapping, which has zero to do with his ability as a coach.  I never really understood the backlash against a guy who has delivered us from 17 years in the football wilderness.

17 games mean nothing if you lose the last one you play, when the coach gets dominated again in a big moment and pisses away another whole season because he can’t do his job for 13 seconds, the whole season is a waste.   Call him whatever you want, the point is, he’s not the guy to get it done.  He didn’t deliver this team to the promised land, the Bengals helped backdoor him into the playoffs after he choked on the opportunity to do it himself.  Then a worthless season, then Josh Allen put a team on his back and carried them as far as he could 2 times, only to have a ***** coaching performance get him steamrolled out.  Once McDermott is fired and a real coach is installed, we have a chance, until then, his “don’t lose” attitude will be the demise of many more seasons.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

Sal C spoke with Jay Feely at the game and Jay told him he would kick it out of bounds as too many weird things can happen on the kickoff.

 

He also mentioned that during the year the CBs are told to guard the sideline and don't get beat there. He felt that Levi simply reverted to what he was tight and hammered into his head. This also could be part of the execution that was missed according to McD

 

So of interest I think, is the Extra Point show where they brought in Zo Alexander.

https://24343.mc.tritondigital.com/OMNY_THEEXTRAPOINTWITHSALCAPACCIO_P/media-session/3cd1f8b6-066d-40cb-8809-d4474d624e0a/d/clips/4b5f9d6d-9214-48cb-8455-a73200038129/07dea503-a77f-4b13-8c65-a92b003719c6/ffc669b9-a55d-4b59-9253-ae2b010a41fc/audio/direct/t1643386438/EXP_-_How_do_players_feel_about_the_last_13_seconds.mp3?t=1643386438

 

Zo's appearance starts at 25:43. 

 

31:50 on the kickoff, Zo says "the players know what happened, for sure" and "the players know, the players will handle it"

33:34 on the defense during 13 seconds, the host comments on a text from a HS football coach "how do you play outside leverage and give Kelce a free release?" 

 

Zo hedges on being critical saying that there's always a reason and if he asked coach he might say "OK that makes sense", but he says he was surprised, that there are variations on a "loose defense" that they played when he was there where maybe he would be the "joker" and jam Kelce. 

 

Worth a listen IMHO.

 

[TheBrownBear]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

I love the way you arrange that. If the defense held the offense to very few points early then it doesn't count because the game wasn't contested.

 

That's not a legit way to look at the defense's performance. It's a way to find the worst possible perspective on it.

 

The defense played very well in most games. There were certainly a few exceptions, and they should be blamed for those. That Colts game was abysmal. But overall they played really well this year, including against pretty solid offenses An awful first half against the Bucs but a great second half. The offense had some awful games too and somehow nobody wants to talk about that.

 

DVOA adjusts for strength of schedule and the Bills D ranked very high there.

"If the defense held the offense to very few points early then it doesn't count because the game wasn't contested."  That's not what I said at all.  I said they played especially well when teams were made one-dimensional.  And sure, they deserve credit for getting an early stop or two combined with the offense for putting teams in early holes.  Complementary football is what McDermott is all about.

 

I think the good DVOA numbers are reflective of the way that the Bills utterly dominated one-dimensional offenses and green QBs (See the Jets and Davis Mills game).  And yes, I agree that the defense, McD/Frazier, deserve credit for devising schemes/plans to destroy those teams where some others failed (See Belichick against the same Davis Mills).  But check the record against diversified/balanced offenses.  Outside of the Pats games and first Chiefs game (when they were still scuffling), it was mostly a struggle - Bucs, Titans, Chiefs, Colts.  We played a ton of TERRIBLE offenses this year.  

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

All but 2 or 3 losses in the last 2 seasons can be attributed to the defense in one way or another.    We have to find a way with Dabs leaving to maintain the offensive stability we’ve seen the last 2 years. 
 

But more importantly we have to do get better on defense.  Be more aggressive?  Tackle better?  Cover a tight end?  I don’t have the answer... but, I also don’t have confidence that the guy running the defense the last 2 years has the answer either.  
 

This is the off season, IMO, when good teams take some serious looks in the mirror and make the necessary, and often painful, tweaks to the roster and coaching staff to finally get over the hump and become great teams. 

 

Some are aiming too low in trying to identify the problem on defense...it's the scheme and the overall play it safe mentality which didn't start with that game.  Being conservative to mitigate risk is, at times, required.  But it's all more of the default posture of the HC and his DC who calls the scheme the HC desires.  Against top competition, trying to get a lead, protect it, and win is not the way in the NFL of the 2020s.    

 

Wholeheartedly agree with your final point that McD take a long look in the mirror and ask himself why he needs the personnel and scheme that he does this off-season.  Their exits in 3 straight playoff games combined with the ascendance of Josh should be enough for McD to see that he needs to evolve and stop holding on to outdated ideologies.      

[TheBrownBear]

10 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

17 games mean nothing if you lose the last one you play, when the coach gets dominated again in a big moment and pisses away another whole season because he can’t do his job for 13 seconds, the whole season is a waste.   Call him whatever you want, the point is, he’s not the guy to get it done.  He didn’t deliver this team to the promised land, the Bengals helped backdoor him into the playoffs after he choked on the opportunity to do it himself.  Then a worthless season, then Josh Allen put a team on his back and carried them as far as he could 2 times, only to have a ***** coaching performance get him steamrolled out.  Once McDermott is fired and a real coach is installed, we have a chance, until then, his “don’t lose” attitude will be the demise of many more seasons.

Dude this is such a histrionic, over the top, and factually incorrect take, I'm not sure how to respond.  13 seconds was a travesty, but beyond that everything you've written is gibberish. 

[FilthyBeast]

27 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Marvin Lewis never won a playoff game.  McDermott has now won three.  The last two seasons we were knocked out on the road against arguably the best team and quarterback in the league (certainly the best over the past 5 years).  

 

I don't know if McDermott is the guy to win us a Super Bowl (or multiple SBs) or if he's the next Marty Schottenheimer, but he's already shown more than Marvin Lewis who was consistently choking away home playoff games.  Not sure how he screwed up an entire season.  Seems to me we've won the division two straight years, made the playoffs in 4 of the last 5, and clearly have the best team in the AFC East heading into next season.  You would have to be insane or the gambler of all gamblers to fire a young head coach like McDermott who has compiled the resume he has over the past five years.  McDermott isn't perfect and no one is saying he is or that he should be above criticism, but this year showed us the same could be said for hoodie and Reid or a number of other coaches (including McVay who has found himself as the Super Bowl favorite just one week after blowing a 20+ point lead in a playoff game). 

 

It seems some posters have had a hard on for McDermott from the moment he became coach - even going so far as to consistently criticize his clapping, which has zero to do with his ability as a coach.  I never really understood the backlash against a guy who has delivered us from 17 years in the football wilderness.

 

I've said all along that this team can do much worse than McDermott....they have for 17 years before he go here.

 

But at the same time through 5 years and an established body of work there is nothing wrong with asking if the Bills can do better....because the evidence is there that they can especially given the latest failures that aren't going anyway anytime soon and will be continued to be magnified all offseason.

 

At the end of the day though, the idea that McDermott deserves some sort of entitlement just because he's the guy that ended the 17 year playoff drought is a loser mentality that Buffalo fans/media/etc need to move past.

 

2022 is year 6 for McDermott and if he can't take this team further than they made it the last two years it will definitely be time to consider replacing him with someone that can and that's the harsh reality of this business whether fans here think that's on the table or not, what matters if the Pegula's do.

[blitzboy54]

He nailed it across the board

[Nihilarian]

51 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

I wonder if Payton would like an OC job in Buffalo, paid like a HC and promise of the reins when McClappy screws up again?

The man has already been offered a few HCing jobs on other teams. I highly doubt he would consider a step down to any be teams OC... no matter how much money is offered. 

[PetermansRedemption]

41 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

I love the way you arrange that. If the defense held the offense to very few points early then it doesn't count because the game wasn't contested.

 

That's not a legit way to look at the defense's performance. It's a way to find the worst possible perspective on it.

 

The defense played very well in most games. There were certainly a few exceptions, and they should be blamed for those. That Colts game was abysmal. But overall they played really well this year, including against pretty solid offenses An awful first half against the Bucs but a great second half. The offense had some awful games too and somehow nobody wants to talk about that.

 

DVOA adjusts for strength of schedule and the Bills D ranked very high there.

 

 

 

 

Almost as nutty as the fire McDermott fruitcakes, one of whom is also in this thread.

Do you truly believe the Bills had a top ranked defense this season? Rather than just beating up on bottom feeders? Allowed 34 to the Titans, 41 to the Colts, 33 to the Bucs and then 42 when it mattered the most in the playoffs to the Chiefs. He simply isn’t good enough to get this team over the hump and the pressure will fall entirely onto the offense. You can’t sustain that. His defense against the Chiefs was straight up abused and it’s inexcusable. You can’t come back from that. 

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, stevewin said:

Interesting comments on the kick.  As far as the defense - the one thing the Bills did for sure was funnel the ball to the middle 

context: he has had bad and untrusted kickers all year.  Ours had often executed the technique very well. 
 

he is correct though that the defensive calls are much less defensible than the kick (minus the possible major communication issue)

[Freddie's Dead]

Nice to see confirmation from a Super Bowl winning coach that our coaches choked away the Divisional Round.  Thanks again McD.

[Mat68]

2 hours ago, First Round Bust said:

appeciate the insight of a respected insider, ok so the kick-off may or may not have been flawed but a high kick to the 5 or 10 should have been the play over the touchback and no time runoff ?

 

the D took away the long ball and the sideline but gave the middle seam

 

further suggestions:

1. 2 or 3 man rush not 4

2. one defensive hold esp on first down should have been ordered to run more time

3 the use of timeouts on D is zero benefit as the O see the D as well as was the case with Kelce telling Mahomes his analysis during the timeout, plus Mahomes yelled for Kecle "Do It Kelce do it !" and the D did not pick up on that ???

 

 

 

How would the defense know what he is doing??   Overall, imo Buffalo didnt have anyone they trusted to play up on Hill or Kelce.  I said it before I will say it now.  This was the game not having White costed them. White defenses that play and is in position where Mahomes looks to the otherside.  

[TheBrownBear]

8 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Do you truly believe the Bills had a top ranked defense this season? Rather than just beating up on bottom feeders? Allowed 34 to the Titans, 41 to the Colts, 33 to the Bucs and then 42 when it mattered the most in the playoffs to the Chiefs. He simply isn’t good enough to get this team over the hump and the pressure will fall entirely onto the offense. You can’t sustain that. His defense against the Chiefs was straight up abused and it’s inexcusable. You can’t come back from that. 

They gave up 550 yards in the biggest game of the year!  You don't often see those kinds of numbers outside of Alabama vs. Northwest Arkadelphia Tech during week 2 of the CFB season.

[Nihilarian]

I have no idea why so many Bills fans are after McD's head for the playoff loss at Kansas City.

 

Yes, he is the HC and responsible for what happens on the field. The HC has some control over his assistant coaches and that usually happens before a game and during halftime.

 

The HC of the Buffalo Bills doesn't call the on field plays for the offense or defense. Those are by DC Lesie Frazier and OC Brian Daboll and it's up to the players to execute them.

 

It looked to me like Patrick Mahomes has Buffalo's number on defense as they put up 552 yards of offense and that 13 seconds left FG should have never happened.

That's on Buffalo Bills DC Leslie Frazier!

 

I would like to see the "all-22" on exactly what the Bengals did in the second half of that Championship game to hinder, shut down Mahomes. 

 

Nevertheless, I'm hoping that Frazier gets a HCing job somewhere... so McD doesn't need to replace him. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I have no idea why so many Bills fans are after McD's head for the playoff loss at Kansas City.

 

Yes, he is the HC and responsible for what happens on the field. The HC has some control over his assistant coaches and that usually happens before a game and during halftime.

 

The HC of the Buffalo Bills doesn't call the on field plays for the offense or defense. Those are by DC Lesie Frazier and OC Brian Daboll and it's up to the players to execute them.

 

It looked to me like Patrick Mahomes has Buffalo's number on defense as they put up 552 yards of offense and that 13 seconds left FG should have never happened.

That's on Buffalo Bills DC Leslie Frazier!

 

I would like to see the "all-22" on exactly what the Bengals did in the second half of that Championship game to hinder, shut down Mahomes. 

 

Nevertheless, I'm hoping that Frazier gets a HCing job somewhere... so McD doesn't need to replace him. 

 

McDermott will have been involved in both of those defensive calls. I agree Frazier deserves some blame but McDermott is deciding strategy there. 

 

As for what the Bengals did - they won up front with 4. That is what the Bills really struggled to do. They played a bit braver on the outside as well with Apple and Hilton. You can't really afford to do that though with Jackson and Wallace, especially when you are not winning enough up front, because of their physical limitations. Added to that Mahomes reverted to his early season form, he was not taking short gains and was forcing the ball. I give the Bengals defense a ton of credit, but part of it was the same thing we benefited from in week 5 - Mahomes was off his game in that second half.  

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I thought the kickoff was the least important play of the drive.  One theory suggests that the call was for Bass to kick the ball short and to the left but he never got the communication.  
 

Still, Payton confirms what we know.  McDermott and Frazier screwed up on the final drive.  It’s infuriating.  Josh deserved better.  But what can you do?

Yeah but we already knew that.  I’m sure McDermott knows this and our only hope is that he can use this as fuel in 2022

 

 

"me and Leslie are chokers!"  isn't high octane fuel....

[Utah John]

28 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I have no idea why so many Bills fans are after McD's head for the playoff loss at Kansas City.

 

Yes, he is the HC and responsible for what happens on the field. The HC has some control over his assistant coaches and that usually happens before a game and during halftime.

 

The HC of the Buffalo Bills doesn't call the on field plays for the offense or defense. Those are by DC Lesie Frazier and OC Brian Daboll and it's up to the players to execute them.

 

It looked to me like Patrick Mahomes has Buffalo's number on defense as they put up 552 yards of offense and that 13 seconds left FG should have never happened.

That's on Buffalo Bills DC Leslie Frazier!

 

I would like to see the "all-22" on exactly what the Bengals did in the second half of that Championship game to hinder, shut down Mahomes. 

 

Nevertheless, I'm hoping that Frazier gets a HCing job somewhere... so McD doesn't need to replace him. 

McDermott's part in this would have come much earlier, possibly in training camp when the defensive schemes were installed.  He should have made sure Frazier had a scheme all worked out and communicated to the players for a situation like the end of the KC game.  And Frazier should have had the scheme worked out whether or not McDermott asked him about it.  There was no reason for the Bills to be scratching their heads about what to do.  

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, TheBrownBear said:

Yeah, I remember the "Is our defense elite?" thread or whatever it was called.  I mostly stayed out of it, since it was hard to argue with the stats guys, but I never felt that this defense was anything special when it wasn't getting lucky with turnovers or playing against bottom barrel QBs.  Even now, after it's failures were brought to life in epic fashion, someone will likely come defend Frazier by waving a Pro Football Reference team defense stats printout.

Good offenses can put up points on anyone when they are on.  It's by design from the NFL, it makes for entertaining football.  Defensive rankings are relative to the others.   No defense in this era will meet this "elite" standard from the past many seem to be striving for.

 

When ranking the Bills defense is when you use the stats.  Maybe you feel you should adjust for the QBs faced, but then be fair and do that with the other teams.   And the "lucky" turnovers would need to be adjusted on all teams also (or not, because you are just getting ridiculous now).

 

The fire Frazier brigade is showing the emotional IQ of a spoiled gnat.  Frazier had a top 5 defense.  In the playoffs he was playing without his top paid player.  Yes, I think he had a poor 13 seconds and OT.  

 

 

[Utah John]

The Bengals won after the Bills lost because Mahomes in the second half played incredibly well against Buffalo and really, really badly against the Bengals.

 

I am not sure what Cincy did differently in the second half, but it couldn't have been THAT different than anything Mahomes had seen before.  The difference was that Mahomes started missing easy passes he usually makes without even looking (seriously, he can do that).  As a result, KC couldn't sustain drives.  The KC defense arguably played better against Cincy than they did against us, either that or Josh played so much better than Burrow did.  Either way the loss yesterday is completely on Mahomes.  I've never seen a top QB implode like that, certainly not the guy most people think is the best QB in the NFL.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, Utah John said:

The Bengals won after the Bills lost because Mahomes in the second half played incredibly well against Buffalo and really, really badly against the Bengals.

 

I am not sure what Cincy did differently in the second half, but it couldn't have been THAT different than anything Mahomes had seen before.  The difference was that Mahomes started missing easy passes he usually makes without even looking (seriously, he can do that).  As a result, KC couldn't sustain drives.  The KC defense arguably played better against Cincy than they did against us, either that or Josh played so much better than Burrow did.  Either way the loss yesterday is completely on Mahomes.  I've never seen a top QB implode like that, certainly not the guy most people think is the best QB in the NFL.

Mahomes made a few bad decisions. The end of the half really screwed KC.

[Utah John]

30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

McDermott will have been involved in both of those defensive calls. I agree Frazier deserves some blame but McDermott is deciding strategy there. 

 

As for what the Bengals did - they won up front with 4. That is what the Bills really struggled to do. They played a bit braver on the outside as well with Apple and Hilton. You can't really afford to do that though with Jackson and Wallace, especially when you are not winning enough up front, because of their physical limitations. Added to that Mahomes reverted to his early season form, he was not taking short gains and was forcing the ball. I give the Bengals defense a ton of credit, but part of it was the same thing we benefited from in week 5 - Mahomes was off his game in that second half.  

I agree with everything here except the end.  I don't recall thinking Mahomes was off his game in the second half against us.  I remember Mahomes and Josh both lighting it up against the other team's defense.  If I could bear the pain I'd rewatch the game to check on this, but I haven't worked up the courage to do it yet.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

29 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

McDermott will have been involved in both of those defensive calls. I agree Frazier deserves some blame but McDermott is deciding strategy there. 

 

As for what the Bengals did - they won up front with 4. That is what the Bills really struggled to do. They played a bit braver on the outside as well with Apple and Hilton. You can't really afford to do that though with Jackson and Wallace, especially when you are not winning enough up front, because of their physical limitations. Added to that Mahomes reverted to his early season form, he was not taking short gains and was forcing the ball. I give the Bengals defense a ton of credit, but part of it was the same thing we benefited from in week 5 - Mahomes was off his game in that second half.  

 

I would have to watch the game again, but I'm not even so sure that "won up front with 4" is the best description.  They either succeeded in taking away rushing lanes for Mahomes, or he wouldn't take them - but as far as I could tell watching the broadcast films, it looked to me as if most of the sacks Mahomes took were coverage sacks.

 

Mahomes was just off, and/or so were his receivers, like they mentally punched their SB tickets at halftime.  There were catchable throws that were missed or dropped. 

 

Then Mahomes threw a pick in the 3Q that resulted in quick Bengals points, and I think it made him gunshy. The next 3 drives all ended in stupid sacks.

 

Before that, I didn't see much Bengals front-4 winning.

[TheBrownBear]

3 minutes ago, Utah John said:

I agree with everything here except the end.  I don't recall thinking Mahomes was off his game in the second half against us.  I remember Mahomes and Josh both lighting it up against the other team's defense.  If I could bear the pain I'd rewatch the game to check on this, but I haven't worked up the courage to do it yet.

John, he's referring to the week 5 game.  And I agree with you, no desire to watch the playoff game again.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I would have to watch the game again, but I'm not even so sure that "won up front with 4" is the best description.  They either succeeded in taking away rushing lanes for Mahomes, or he wouldn't take them - but as far as I could tell watching the broadcast films, it looked to me as if most of the sacks Mahomes took were coverage sacks.

 

Mahomes was just off, and/or so were his receivers, like they mentally punched their SB tickets at halftime.  There were catchable throws that were missed or dropped. 

 

Then Mahomes threw a pick in the 3Q that resulted in quick Bengals points, and I think it made him gunshy. The next 3 drives all ended in stupid sacks.

 

Before that, I didn't see much Bengals front-4 winning.

 

IT wasn't just winning with 4, they dropped 8, the played braver outside, but when they did rush 4 they got to him and critically they contained him. I actually think mentally the mistake before HT had Mahomes in chase mode the whole 2nd half and started looking for big plays again. 

6 minutes ago, Utah John said:

I agree with everything here except the end.  I don't recall thinking Mahomes was off his game in the second half against us.  I remember Mahomes and Josh both lighting it up against the other team's defense.  If I could bear the pain I'd rewatch the game to check on this, but I haven't worked up the courage to do it yet.

 

I meant he was a bit off in the week 5 game. Not last week!

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, BillsFanSD said:

I agree.  The kick-off has been over-analyzed IMO.  Kicking it deep would have been a perfectly fine choice if that's what they intended to do.  The defense just need to not give up two huge plays.  They proceeded to give up two huge plays.

If we haven't learnt anything from the Music City Miracle or the Hail Murray, then we really don't understand it.   These games are good signs that it is not over until the final whistle is blown.   His point was that if they squib kick, we would have shaved a further few more seconds of the clock;  that would mean they only had one play as opposed to two plays to get to the Bills 35.

[Utah John]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

IT wasn't just winning with 4, they dropped 8, the played braver outside, but when they did rush 4 they got to him and critically they contained him. I actually think mentally the mistake before HT had Mahomes in chase mode the whole 2nd half and started looking for big plays again. 

 

I meant he was a bit off in the week 5 game. Not last week!

Sorry for my misunderstanding.  Yes, I agree about the earlier game.

[starrymessenger]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

I wonder if Payton would like an OC job in Buffalo, paid like a HC and promise of the reins when McClappy screws up again?

I’m not sure that McD has the self-confidence/courage to share space with a big name badass OC (not that I think Payton would come here in that capacity). And thats why I am very interested to see who gets the job here. I think that and the plan for the draft will tell us a lot.

[Einstein]

51 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I have no idea why so many Bills fans are after McD's head for the playoff loss at Kansas City.

 

Yes, he is the HC and responsible for what happens on the field. The HC has some control over his assistant coaches and that usually happens before a game and during halftime.

 

The HC of the Buffalo Bills doesn't call the on field plays for the offense or defense. Those are by DC Lesie Frazier and OC Brian Daboll and it's up to the players to execute them.

 

It looked to me like Patrick Mahomes has Buffalo's number on defense as they put up 552 yards of offense and that 13 seconds left FG should have never happened.

That's on Buffalo Bills DC Leslie Frazier!

 

I would like to see the "all-22" on exactly what the Bengals did in the second half of that Championship game to hinder, shut down Mahomes. 

 

Nevertheless, I'm hoping that Frazier gets a HCing job somewhere... so McD doesn't need to replace him. 

There is 0.0% chance that McD did not know the defensive playcall at the end of regulation.

[BringBackFlutie]

4 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

We’ve done that short kick all year.  

 

Exactly.  In this particular case, Payton doesn't know that Bass regularly practices short kicks and that we drafted a talented kicker so that we'd have all of the different options in the kicking game that he gives us.  This was not an issue of distrust in the kicker.  I think McD trusts Bass more than most.

[Nextmanup]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Peter King interviews Sean Payton:

 

‘Situational football: Buffalo up three on Kansas City with 13 seconds left and kicking off

 

“A lot of it depends on my kicker. If I’ve got a young kicker I’m not sure I can trust, I will not squib kick. You can’t risk the kick going out of bounds, or being recovered at the 40. I also don’t like trying a pop-up kick to land at the eight- or 10-yard line. I’m not asking a kicker to use a technique, seldom-used, to place a kick somewhere that might determine whether you go to the championship game. I’m probably just kicking the ball deep into the end zone and giving them the ball at the 25, like Buffalo did.

 

“The crime that is committed comes after that. We are playing football still—you can’t be defending the sidelines at all costs, like Buffalo was. You see when Travis Kelce catches that long pass to put them in field-goal range, a cornerback is defending an area of the field near the sidelines he doesn’t need to defend. Kansas City’s got two timeouts left—they don’t need to get out of bounds. Everything about what Buffalo did defensively is flawed. We would play outside man technique with a three-man rush, funneling balls to the middle of the field and contesting outside technique.”’

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/01/31/rams-bengals-super-bowl-nfl-fmia-peter-king/

SEAN PAYTON PASSES THE INTERVIEW!

 

BRING HIM IN TO CONTINUE WHAT MCDERMOTT HAS STARTED!
 

Go BE THE DC SOMEWHERE, MCDERMOTT, AND THANKS!
 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Nextmanup

[deadbeef]

10 minutes ago, ganesh said:

If we haven't learnt anything from the Music City Miracle or the Hail Murray, then we really don't understand it.   These games are good signs that it is not over until the final whistle is blown.   His point was that if they squib kick, we would have shaved a further few more seconds of the clock;  that would mean they only had one play as opposed to two plays to get to the Bills 35.

 

There are a few ways to lose in the 13 seconds.   One is a kickoff gadget play and the long kickoff eliminated that.  Another is giving Mahomes too much time to throw and letting him complete a bomb.  Rushing 4 generally eliminates that.  I don't know who they had on the field but you could put 4 DE out there or 3DE + Oliver and have some speed to hurry up Mahomes.  Blitz was an option to rush a throw, but Mahomes can pick you apart with that.  I think the general strategy was fine, but you have to execute a D that doesn't give up two chunk plays as was stated.  Upgrading the pass rush is much needed.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

IT wasn't just winning with 4, they dropped 8, the played braver outside, but when they did rush 4 they got to him and critically they contained him. I actually think mentally the mistake before HT had Mahomes in chase mode the whole 2nd half and started looking for big plays again. 

 

It's an interesting dissection.  I'm not sure it was just Mahomes.  On the first series after the half, Mahomes had challenging, but catchable ball to Hill go incomplete, followed by a miracle escape where he recovered an aborted snap and threw a catchable ball to Kelce (who dropped it).  The Chiefs punted.  Then the Bengals punted. 

 

Then Mahomes had 3rd and 6, and threw 2 deep shots instead of just getting the ***** first down.  The 2nd shot was pretty much a drop by Pringle.

That was Mahomes in "chase mode",  looking for the kill shot instead of "taking what the defense gave him". 

 

The throw to Robinson that turned into an INT and 6 points (TD) for the Bengals looks like a bad decision to me.  It was 2nd and 3. 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/can-t-miss-play-b-j-hill-looks-like-b-j-raji-on-key-big-man-int-vs-mahomes

Looks to me as though Mahomes had Hardman open on the L and someone open on the R, both short of the sticks but could probably have gotten a couple.  He chose to throw to Robinson right over the line, and Raji got a hand on it and picked it.  There's probably an element of luck there, but I can't think it was the best decision.

 

I can't comment on whether the Bengals contained Mahomes, or whether he was simply overlooking some rush lanes that were there.  Myself, I think he was pressing and looking for the "kill shot" pass.  I also think he was rattled and his throws were a bit off.

 

I can comment that the Chiefs didn't seem to realize that Burrows has feet.

 

[Dan]

2 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Our defense had to have been the most overrated unit in the entire NFL this year.  They were great when a team was one dimensional (or made so by a quick start from our offense), but it didn't come close to holding up against better offenses and it seems utterly incapable of getting a big stop at critical moments of a game.  In fact, the only time I can remember our defense making a truly big play in the second half of a contested game was Rousseau's pick of Mahomes at the 10 yard line in the regular season Chiefs game.  Other than that, it seems teams were able to get whatever they wanted down the stretch against us in a close game (which is why we went 0fer in 1 score games this year).  Addressing these defensive failures is my number 1 priority in the offseason if I'm Beane and I'd start with a long hard look at Leslie Frazier.

 

Just curious - for those who have followed Frazier's career, is this kind of his MO?  Beat up on weaklings only to become a bottom-5 defense against diversified offenses?  And I get that "good offenses" are tough for anyone to stop.  But we seemingly can't even slow these guys down for the most part.

 

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

Some are aiming too low in trying to identify the problem on defense...it's the scheme and the overall play it safe mentality which didn't start with that game.  Being conservative to mitigate risk is, at times, required.  But it's all more of the default posture of the HC and his DC who calls the scheme the HC desires.  Against top competition, trying to get a lead, protect it, and win is not the way in the NFL of the 2020s.    

 

Wholeheartedly agree with your final point that McD take a long look in the mirror and ask himself why he needs the personnel and scheme that he does this off-season.  Their exits in 3 straight playoff games combined with the ascendance of Josh should be enough for McD to see that he needs to evolve and stop holding on to outdated ideologies.      

I have to completely agree.   I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt during the season (and honestly what choice did we have).   But now... after exiting the playoffs again, largely due to the defense. They have to rethink the defensive strategy, including players and coaching.   What they’ve built is good... but it’s not good enough.