Go get Vic Fangio

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

McDermott's defense is fine, but I think it can be too vanilla and without Tre it simply wasn't good enough at the corners to hold down the first passing offense they faced with a pulse since his injury. It's one thing to sit in a 2 deep shell when you have a top 3 DB locking down half of the field, but when that's the only trick you have, it gets exposed if that DB depth is tested. 

 

With Josh's cap hit about to jump you can't go out and spend a ridiculous amount on defense because you have to make sure you surround your franchise player with talent and protection. However, if they go make Fangio the highest paid coordinator in football and let him re-imagine this defense I think it can actually be elite. This is clearly a Super Bowl roster but they need to give themselves more of a shot against Mahomes because he's not going anywhere either. 

 

It would also be nice if McDermott pulled his head out and stopped surrendering with punts on 4th and 2 from the 45 when the opponent hasn't stopped Josh Allen all night, but that's another topic. 

[london_bills]

Can't see it happening. Mcd too much of a control guy. 

[TBBills]

Frazier should have no problem looking for a HC job bmc he needs to be fired from this team.

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

Just now, london_bills said:

Can't see it happening. Mcd too much of a control guy. 

 

I agree and it's a shame. Sometimes in order to get better you have to let go of your deeply held beliefs in this sport. Nick Saban is the perfect example, he realized he was behind the times on offense and he completely changed and it's made him even more successful. I think Fangio would do amazing things for this org and give them their best shot to beat Mahomes next year.

[Wayne Cubed]

While I think it's a Vic Fangio is a very good DC, I just don't see it happening. McD doesn't run the same type of defense as Fangio and I'm not sure there's a coaching connection there.

[london_bills]

3 minutes ago, SACTOBILLSFAN said:

 

I agree and it's a shame. Sometimes in order to get better you have to let go of your deeply held beliefs in this sport. Nick Saban is the perfect example, he realized he was behind the times on offense and he completely changed and it's made him even more successful. I think Fangio would do amazing things for this org and give them their best shot to beat Mahomes next year.

To be fair I think Mcd is a good leader and isn't closed to personal growth, I just get the feeling fangio too big of a name. It might make some sense to have a very experienced DC/asst HC should frazier leave because I'm convinced Dorsey is the new OC 

Edited January 24, 2022 by london_bills

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

3 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

While I think it's a Vic Fangio is a very good DC, I just don't see it happening. McD doesn't run the same type of defense as Fangio and I'm not sure there's a coaching connection there.

Fangio isn't a "very good" DC, he's one of the two best in the sport imo. His scheme also give Mahomes as much trouble as a scheme can give him. It's probably not realistic because it would challenge many things McDermott has done as a DC in his career and I'm not sure he's up for that. However, Fangio does run a 2 high shell most of the time, doesn't blitz much, but he varies the fronts and where pressure comes from down to down. With the cap situation going forward it might be the best shot at building a defense to beat Mahomes, but it's more of a pipe dream than anything I bet. 

[John from Riverside]

been on my list for sometime now

[RobbRiddick]

I'd love it if they did but I agree that McD wouldn't do it due to different philosophies

[Milanos Milano]

Just now, RobbRiddick said:

I'd love it if they did but I agree that McD wouldn't do it due to different philosophies

McD needs to swallow his pride and just focus on winning. McD has had 2 shots at beating Mahomes and couldn’t get it done. If he is serious about winning, he needs to look into bringing in more expansive philosophies. 

[london_bills]

How about someone on the KC staff 

[Wayne Cubed]

Here's where I'll aslo disagree a bit. I don't think McD's specific defensive coaching philosophy is bad. It works, as proven in many previous seasons and in this season as well. It confuses the hell out of QBs.

 

No defensive strategy is perfect. If you are upset about what happened last night, I think that's more about McDs coaching style overall. It's certainly within a McD defensive scheme, to play more press man and jam receivers at the line. Unfortunately without Tre, that's a big ask on Dane Jackson. I just son't think you can do that. They could also apply more pressure on the QB in a McD defensive scheme. The gameplan wasn't to against Mahomes as he absolutely punishes teams for blitzing. 

 

I just don't think McD would give up critical defensive desicions, not to mention they've drafted guys for a McD defense. Take for example the 13 seconds last night, they could be running a Vic Fangio defensive scheme and McD could have still told Fangio to play soft, protect the sidelines and rush 4. And it still might have failed.

[cage]

1 hour ago, Wayne Cubed said:

While I think it's a Vic Fangio is a very good DC, I just don't see it happening. McD doesn't run the same type of defense as Fangio and I'm not sure there's a coaching connection there.

 

I guess then that's the test on how great of a head coach McD can be?  A great leader can also make bold decisions on change that is clearly needed.  I definitely agree w/ this thread on going after Fangio and launching the next level of growth for this team

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by cage

[longtimebillsfan]

1 hour ago, TBBills said:

Frazier should have no problem looking for a HC job bmc he needs to be fired from this team.

EXACTLY!

[GunnerBill]

41 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

Here's where I'll aslo disagree a bit. I don't think McD's specific defensive coaching philosophy is bad. It works, as proven in many previous seasons and in this season as well. It confuses the hell out of QBs.

 

No defensive strategy is perfect. If you are upset about what happened last night, I think that's more about McDs coaching style overall. It's certainly within a McD defensive scheme, to play more press man and jam receivers at the line. Unfortunately without Tre, that's a big ask on Dane Jackson. I just son't think you can do that. They could also apply more pressure on the QB in a McD defensive scheme. The gameplan wasn't to against Mahomes as he absolutely punishes teams for blitzing. 

 

I just don't think McD would give up critical defensive desicions, not to mention they've drafted guys for a McD defense. Take for example the 13 seconds last night, they could be running a Vic Fangio defensive scheme and McD could have still told Fangio to play soft, protect the sidelines and rush 4. And it still might have failed.

 

All of this. End thread.

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, IronMaidenBills said:

McD needs to swallow his pride and just focus on winning. McD has had 2 shots at beating Mahomes and couldn’t get it done. If he is serious about winning, he needs to look into bringing in more expansive philosophies. 

McD is on record saying he learned to step back from the defense and focus on the whole team. This is his first HC job n he's learning as well and after 5 years I think he's down for whatever gives us the best chance at a SB

[PetermansRedemption]

Had a few hours to cool down and I’m at this conclusion still. Fire Frazier, bring in Fangio. 

[bmur66]

1 hour ago, RobbRiddick said:

I'd love it if they did but I agree that McD wouldn't do it due to different philosophies

And how has that philosophy been working for him?

[billsfan714]

Best idea I heard all night.

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

58 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

Here's where I'll aslo disagree a bit. I don't think McD's specific defensive coaching philosophy is bad. It works, as proven in many previous seasons and in this season as well. It confuses the hell out of QBs.

 

No defensive strategy is perfect. If you are upset about what happened last night, I think that's more about McDs coaching style overall. It's certainly within a McD defensive scheme, to play more press man and jam receivers at the line. Unfortunately without Tre, that's a big ask on Dane Jackson. I just son't think you can do that. They could also apply more pressure on the QB in a McD defensive scheme. The gameplan wasn't to against Mahomes as he absolutely punishes teams for blitzing. 

 

I just don't think McD would give up critical defensive desicions, not to mention they've drafted guys for a McD defense. Take for example the 13 seconds last night, they could be running a Vic Fangio defensive scheme and McD could have still told Fangio to play soft, protect the sidelines and rush 4. And it still might have failed.

I think McDermott would because He does not like calling defense anymore both Beane and McDermott know if Frazier is back teams will attack Buffalo by keeping Josh on the sidelines and keeping the defense on the field.  It happened to the Bill’s in the 90’s it will happen next year.

[Nihilarian]

That supposed #1 Buffalo Bills defense got that ranking by beating the hapless Jets 2x, once with a backup QB, once with a rookie QB.

The Washington team with a backup QB.

The Texans with a backup QB.

Miami they knocked out the starter and played against the backup most of that first game.

The Saints with a backup QB.

The Panthers with Cam Newton as QB.

The Patriots 3x with a rookie QB.

 

They might have had that #1 ranking in a lot of passing categories but those stats were very misleading. 

 

The Titans put up 34 points on them. The Bucs 33. The Colts 41. Just looking at the way the Patriots rookie QB was finding receivers in that home WC game gave me doubt about how good they were. 

 

We all saw what a top defense can do against Mahomes in last years super bowl and this Bills defense gave up 552 yards of offense in that game!

Mahomes wasn't running for his life like he was against the Bucs...he was throwing at will. 

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics. One new DC might not be enough. Although, I do hope the Buffalo Bills move on from both coordinators. 

 

[Fixxxer]

1 hour ago, Wayne Cubed said:

Here's where I'll aslo disagree a bit. I don't think McD's specific defensive coaching philosophy is bad. It works, as proven in many previous seasons and in this season as well. It confuses the hell out of QBs.

 

No defensive strategy is perfect. If you are upset about what happened last night, I think that's more about McDs coaching style overall. It's certainly within a McD defensive scheme, to play more press man and jam receivers at the line. Unfortunately without Tre, that's a big ask on Dane Jackson. I just son't think you can do that. They could also apply more pressure on the QB in a McD defensive scheme. The gameplan wasn't to against Mahomes as he absolutely punishes teams for blitzing. 

 

I just don't think McD would give up critical defensive desicions, not to mention they've drafted guys for a McD defense. Take for example the 13 seconds last night, they could be running a Vic Fangio defensive scheme and McD could have still told Fangio to play soft, protect the sidelines and rush 4. And it still might have failed.

 

Excellent points, I agree, we could be more agressive or not in any given game, but the phylosophy of the defense won't change much as long as McD is our coach. The problem last night is that we needed to protect the middle of the field on that pass to Kelce, the chiefs had 3 time outs on their pocket. The way the defense played in those last 13 seconds, was embarrasing. 

[Xwnyer]

1 hour ago, Wayne Cubed said:

Here's where I'll aslo disagree a bit. I don't think McD's specific defensive coaching philosophy is bad. It works, as proven in many previous seasons and in this season as well. It confuses the hell out of QBs.

 

No defensive strategy is perfect. If you are upset about what happened last night, I think that's more about McDs coaching style overall. It's certainly within a McD defensive scheme, to play more press man and jam receivers at the line. Unfortunately without Tre, that's a big ask on Dane Jackson. I just son't think you can do that. They could also apply more pressure on the QB in a McD defensive scheme. The gameplan wasn't to against Mahomes as he absolutely punishes teams for blitzing. 

 

I just don't think McD would give up critical defensive desicions, not to mention they've drafted guys for a McD defense. Take for example the 13 seconds last night, they could be running a Vic Fangio defensive scheme and McD could have still told Fangio to play soft, protect the sidelines and rush 4. And it still might have failed.

Protecting the sidelines made no sense you left Kelce and Hill wide open over a soft middle defense

[Wayne Cubed]

6 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

Protecting the sidelines made no sense you left Kelce and Hill wide open over a soft middle defense

 

Oh, I agree with that completely. Problem is, that isn't anything specific to just a McD defense. 

[HOUSE]

With the defensive collapse last night its unlikely Frazier will be offered a head coaching Job so my guess is he will be back next season.

 

We Shall See

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:58 AM, Gene1973 said:

We don't need another rigid old coach with ideas and concepts from the 1980's...

 

Lol Fangio is an elite DC who's scheme isn't stuck in the 80s. Other than that, great reply.

[Big Turk]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:52 AM, SACTOBILLSFAN said:

McDermott's defense is fine, but I think it can be too vanilla and without Tre it simply wasn't good enough at the corners to hold down the first passing offense they faced with a pulse since his injury. It's one thing to sit in a 2 deep shell when you have a top 3 DB locking down half of the field, but when that's the only trick you have, it gets exposed if that DB depth is tested. 

 

With Josh's cap hit about to jump you can't go out and spend a ridiculous amount on defense because you have to make sure you surround your franchise player with talent and protection. However, if they go make Fangio the highest paid coordinator in football and let him re-imagine this defense I think it can actually be elite. This is clearly a Super Bowl roster but they need to give themselves more of a shot against Mahomes because he's not going anywhere either. 

 

It would also be nice if McDermott pulled his head out and stopped surrendering with punts on 4th and 2 from the 45 when the opponent hasn't stopped Josh Allen all night, but that's another topic. 

 

The cap is going to increase exponentially every year for about 4 or 5 years...it will be a non issue in a few years.

[The Frankish Reich]

As someone who suffered through at least a dozen Broncos games this year: have you guys actually watched Fangio’s defense in action? Granted there were a lot of injuries this year, particularly to the linebackers, but overall there’s some really impressive talent on the Broncos defense. And Fangio’s results were kind of (dare I say) Frazier-like? I mean, statistically very solid, but not the kind of defense that struck fear into the hearts of opposing offenses. And opposing offenses didn’t have to try all that hard since the Broncos scores so few points themselves. I see no case for Fangio being an upgrade

[Billzgobowlin]

So you have a #1 defense and what do fans want to do?  Fire the DC.  Have we come this far as a team to where #1 is not good enough?

[Nextmanup]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:35 AM, Nihilarian said:

That supposed #1 Buffalo Bills defense got that ranking by beating the hapless Jets 2x, once with a backup QB, once with a rookie QB.

The Washington team with a backup QB.

The Texans with a backup QB.

Miami they knocked out the starter and played against the backup most of that first game.

The Saints with a backup QB.

The Panthers with Cam Newton as QB.

The Patriots 3x with a rookie QB.

 

They might have had that #1 ranking in a lot of passing categories but those stats were very misleading. 

 

The Titans put up 34 points on them. The Bucs 33. The Colts 41. Just looking at the way the Patriots rookie QB was finding receivers in that home WC game gave me doubt about how good they were. 

 

We all saw what a top defense can do against Mahomes in last years super bowl and this Bills defense gave up 552 yards of offense in that game!

Mahomes wasn't running for his life like he was against the Bucs...he was throwing at will. 

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics. One new DC might not be enough. Although, I do hope the Buffalo Bills move on from both coordinators. 

 

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you are writing here, but Mahomes also had a bum foot/ankle in the SB last year, and did not have that against us last Sunday.

 

Strength of opponent does suggest that our rating was inflated this year.  I agree.

 

 

[Richard Noggin]

Eff it; you've got Josh freaking Allen. You can afford to play a more aggressive defensive scheme, and potentially forcing an early turnover or two could really let an offense like ours put a team away. Giving up some big plays here and there, as we've seen, won't burry this offense when it's playing unbridled. Aggression is the key to a team featuring Josh Allen. Or whatever. 

 

Probably just not in McD's DNA either way.

 

 

[Bferra13]

3 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

So you have a #1 defense and what do fans want to do?  Fire the DC.  Have we come this far as a team to where #1 is not good enough?

Blah. Number 1 against a crap schedule. Really a deceiving stat given the opponents. Crapped the bed when it mattered most. Someone honestly should be fired after that abomination.

[BuffaloBills1998]

Fangio runs a 3-4 completely different than what McDermott runs lol. Not happening. Now Schwartz would be intriguing if he was interested in coming back

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

So you have a #1 defense and what do fans want to do?  Fire the DC.  Have we come this far as a team to where #1 is not good enough?

We're #1 defensively against everyone except KC. 80 points in the last 2 playoff games. Yea that screams #1. 

[Mr. WEO]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:33 AM, Wayne Cubed said:

Here's where I'll aslo disagree a bit. I don't think McD's specific defensive coaching philosophy is bad. It works, as proven in many previous seasons and in this season as well. It confuses the hell out of QBs.

 

No defensive strategy is perfect. If you are upset about what happened last night, I think that's more about McDs coaching style overall. It's certainly within a McD defensive scheme, to play more press man and jam receivers at the line. Unfortunately without Tre, that's a big ask on Dane Jackson. I just son't think you can do that. They could also apply more pressure on the QB in a McD defensive scheme. The gameplan wasn't to against Mahomes as he absolutely punishes teams for blitzing. 

 

I just don't think McD would give up critical defensive desicions, not to mention they've drafted guys for a McD defense. Take for example the 13 seconds last night, they could be running a Vic Fangio defensive scheme and McD could have still told Fangio to play soft, protect the sidelines and rush 4. And it still might have failed.

 

 

And Fangio would have pointed out to McD why the was a dumb idea.  Game over.  SB.

[Wayne Cubed]

7 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

And Fangio would have pointed out to McD why the was a dumb idea.  Game over.  SB.

 

Would have been nice for someone, anyone to do that. Thought I'm not sure who decided on that defensive setup for those 13 seconds.

[Nextmanup]

Fangio is one of the all time greats!

 

His performance at the '57 German GP will be remembered forever! 

 

Sign him! 

 

😁

[Billsflyer12]

Living in Denver we have witnessed Fangio up close.  Although his defenses are great, I just don’t see him as a fit to McD “culture.”  He is a stubborn, inflexible man who doesn’t seem to be someone who would embrace McD growth mindset concepts.

[Billzgobowlin]

9 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

Blah. Number 1 against a crap schedule. Really a deceiving stat given the opponents. Crapped the bed when it mattered most. Someone honestly should be fired after that abomination.

Against Titans, Bucs, Chiefs and Pats twice?  Dolphins would have been in the playoffs without 2 dominant wins by us against them.  Like I said we had a great defense, not Elite but I'm not gonna jettison a DC because of 1 game.  It sucks because I know they need to beat the Chiefs but I feel like our philosophy is sound just need some better talent in front 7 with a healthy Tre White

[Nihilarian]

9 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you are writing here, but Mahomes also had a bum foot/ankle in the SB last year, and did not have that against us last Sunday.

 

Strength of opponent does suggest that our rating was inflated this year.  I agree.

 

 

Just some thoughts here.

 

When you think about how much experience those two coordinators have in the NFL there should be no reasons / excuses for the type of failure we all saw this season...on offense and defense!

 

That 6-9 Buffalo loss game against the Jacksonville Jaguars comes to mind first. Four sacks on Josh Allen and under heavy duress all game. 47 pass attempts vs 9 runs by the RBs. This against the 30th ranked defense. When the passing game isn't working...just keep passing?

 

I'm haunted by that loss to a 1-6 team...(remember everyone posting about how bad the Buffalo Bills O line is and how bad the Bills RB's were back then?) Yes, the Bills O line was playing poorly at that time...but 6 points?

(If one or two O line players can make this much difference... the Bills had better find more talent for that line this off season!)

 

The Jags were literally destroyed later in the season by the Patriots with a rookie QB, 50-10. 

 

That Colts game was a complete embarrassment, humiliation... at that hands of a bum of a QB in Carson Wentz who only completed 11 passes out of 20 for 106 yards. The Bills defense gave up 32 rushes for 185 rush yards, 4 TDs to Colts RB Taylor and 41 points.

 

MNF against the Patriots in a loss, 10-14. Pats RB Damien Harris, 10 carries for 111 yards, 1 TD. That's a 11.1 yard per carry average. 

 

That sound like a #1 defense?

 

At that time Frazier stated that if you can't stop a RB with the same players in a stacked box...then there is nothing else you can do.

 

However, that changed later in the season when faced against another strong run team the defense did swap out smaller players for bigger Bills defenders, and did much better at stopping the run.  I'm thinking McD had a say in the change of mind. 

 

13 seconds left in regulation, with a 94.3% Buffalo chance to win on the kickoff in that game against the Chiefs. NVM the kick. 

What freaking defense were the Bills in that allowed both Hill and Kelce to be that wide open for 19, 25 yards respectively to allow that FG?